What would you consider to be a 1 star Terrain Cache

January 19, 2007

I spent the day going after 1 star terrain caches. I have been told by many people that 1 star Terrain Caches are HANDICAP Accesible...wheel chairs...crutches

Have I been given incorrect information? 9 out of 10 caches I did today needed a bushwack, a log hop or a wall hop....before I log these caches...I need to know the truth.

The answer is really going to affect my logs...because I came back bleeding, bruised and just plain angry.

Thank you!

Edited January 19, 2007 by WeatherednBoston

18.9k · January 19, 2007

Yes a 1 star should be wheelchair accessible. If you can do Wal-Mart - you can do a 1 star.

Having said that - at least 50% of the 1 star caches I have been to are way underrated. I sympathize.

6.7k · January 19, 2007

Assail away, my friend! As a handi-cacher this is a pet peeve of mine!

The more noise you make about this issue the beter off we are.

I think Reviewers should question every listing submission rated Terrain = 1 to ask if it's truly accessible or if the cache owner is too lazy to rate it correctly... that's the only way I see we'll ever get folks to use the 1 Terrain rating properly.

1.5k · January 19, 2007

I DO question every single 1 terrain rating cache that comes through my queue. I have a standard note and use it several times a day.

If the terrain is truly a 1 = wheelchair accessible, then please add the wheelchair attribute for those who filter on it. If it isn't, then please change the terrain rating. Thanks.

You can add attributes from the menu on the upper right corner of the cache page, or from the top of the cache edit page.

BUT, misrating terrain isn't a guidelines violation, so I post that and hit publish (assuming no other problems). What the cacher does after that????

20.7k · January 20, 2007

Handicap accessible is not necessarily the same thing as wheelchair accessible.

That being said, feel free to carry on with your rant.

January 20, 2007

Some people don't stop and think before they rate their caches. I logged one recently that the owner described as handicapped accessable. The cache was in a ground level lamp post skirt on the other side of a curb. This means that the a cacher in a wheelchair would have had to roll up to the curb and reach way forward and down to the ground to lift up the skirt and grab the cache. I have a horrible visual of someone either falling out of their chair or tipping it over trying to get the stupid cache. Surprisingly, no one else seems bothered by it.

January 20, 2007

I wanted to add that the caches I did today were NOT in Massachusetts.

The Massachusetts Reviewer is very strict when it comes to 1 Terrain caches and she should be applauded for her dedication to the local Handicaped geocachers here in the state. She also will not publish a 1 star terrain cache unless the wheel chair attribute is listed.

Excellent job MadMin!!!!

January 20, 2007

Handicap accessible is not necessarily the same thing as wheelchair accessible.

That being said, feel free to carry on with your rant.

That's a great comment! Please explain the difference because I dont know.

6.7k · January 20, 2007

sbell's point is accurate - the 1 Terrain rating should indicate that wheelchair user should be able to park, hunt, and retrieve the cache. It is sort of a lowest-common-denominator and does not address other handicaps.

Thanks Palmetto, MadMin and any other Reviewer that already does this.

The point is made that all a Reviewer can do is remind the submitter that Terrain 1 should be reserved for wheelchair-accessible, but that it cannot be enforced.

And Frivlas, thanks for your concern, but few of us that use wheelchairs fall out of them! <_< We get used to things we can't safely do and move on!

Thanks to all who promote accurate use of the 1 Terrain rating!

January 20, 2007

And Frivlas, thanks for your concern, but few of us that use wheelchairs fall out of them! We get used to things we can't safely do and move on!

I understand that. You get accustomed to your limitations. Would you search for a cache if you got there and found your self ....in a parking lot....confronted by a curb.....about 1 foot behind the curb is a lamp skirt....oh, and grade on the other side of the curb is slightly lower than the parking lot grade. Keep in mind, it was listed in the description as "Wheelchair accessable". Would you try for it?

20.7k · January 20, 2007

And Frivlas, thanks for your concern, but few of us that use wheelchairs fall out of them! We get used to things we can't safely do and move on!

I understand that. You get accustomed to your limitations. Would you search for a cache if you got there and found your self ....in a parking lot....confronted by a curb.....about 1 foot behind the curb is a lamp skirt....oh, and grade on the other side of the curb is slightly lower than the parking lot grade. Keep in mind, it was listed in the description as "Wheelchair accessable". Would you try for it?

I bet that you are asking the wrong person. I think that TAR would pull himself up a flagpole if he wanted to log the cache.

3.7k · January 20, 2007

Handicap accessible is not necessarily the same thing as wheelchair accessible.

That being said, feel free to carry on with your rant.

That's a great comment! Please explain the difference because I dont know.

Well, for example, wheelchair users are sitting down, and can't reach as high as a person who can stand, albeit with crutches. So, a cache placed 5 feet up might be accessible to some handicapped folks, but not to wheelchair users. Other good examples of wheelchair concerns are listed in above replies.

3.2k · January 20, 2007

Assail away, my friend! As a handi-cacher this is a pet peeve of mine!

The more noise you make about this issue the beter off we are.

I think Reviewers should question every listing submission rated Terrain = 1 to ask if it's truly accessible or if the cache owner is too lazy to rate it correctly... that's the only way I see we'll ever get folks to use the 1 Terrain rating properly.

Currently everyone that submits a cache has an option of checking the terrain and difficulty by answering that series of questions as they design the cache page. Perhaps if we were forced to fill out that form each time instead of clicking past it ...with the option of manually changing the result if we feel that it is really warrented... it would result in a more informed rating. This week I did a four star out of this area that would be a 2.5 star by local standards.

January 20, 2007

i just hid my first micro last week... i know i know....micro? i have resisted the urge till now....ther are very few micros here in hawaii county...maybe 3 or 4 so it not a burden...yet...however this IS basically a drive up micro and quite accesable if you know where it is.....my reviewer approved it in record time with the caveat that i review the #1 terrain rating i gave it with wheelchair and crutches in mind...... on the side of caution i bumped it to 1.5....i dont think a determined person in a wheelchair will be deterred. itsonly had two finds in two weeks so that gives you an idea of what caching is like here.since the mojority of our 80 or so caches here require considerable effort over lava, in caves and difficult terrain, i thought an easy micro would be welcome.

4.2k · January 20, 2007

NO! Not a micro near Kona! I promise to be gentle when I'm out there again in June <_<

6.7k · January 20, 2007

And Frivlas, thanks for your concern, but few of us that use wheelchairs fall out of them! We get used to things we can't safely do and move on!

I understand that. You get accustomed to your limitations. Would you search for a cache if you got there and found your self ....in a parking lot....confronted by a curb.....about 1 foot behind the curb is a lamp skirt....oh, and grade on the other side of the curb is slightly lower than the parking lot grade. Keep in mind, it was listed in the description as "Wheelchair accessable". Would you try for it?

I bet that you are asking the wrong person. I think that TAR would pull himself up a flagpole if he wanted to log the cache.

True that! I don't let much stop me today.

Still, I can answer the question, because though I get around pretty good now there was an eight-year period when all I could do was done from the wheelchair, when I could not stand or walk on crutches.

The answer would be no, I would not.

Someone else's opinion of what is safe and doable has never led me to risky behavior - I've been hurt enough, thank you, and tend to be pretty conservative in my old age!

14.3k · January 20, 2007

Why don't they just put a question in the cache submittal form that asks if the cache is wheelchair accessible or not? Then if the submitter answers that it is wheelchair accessible, then the terrain rating automatically gets set to 1 and is grayed out so they can't select something else....

Edited January 20, 2007 by TrailGators

January 20, 2007

Why don't they just put a question in the cache submittal form that asks if the cache is wheelchair accessible or not? Then if the submitter answers that it is wheelchair accessible, then the terrain rating automatically gets set to 1 and is grayed out so they can't select something else....

Nice Idea, though there are some other factors that must be considered when determining the Terrain. What if the Cache is accessible by wheelchair cachers, but requires a bit of traveling distance from parking to the cache (i.e. along a paved path for .5 miles). I would want to rate that a little higher than 1, maybe a 1 1/2 or 2 (if there is a slight incline). Blocking out all other terrain ratings but 1 automatically would not allow me to take the other factors into consideration.

DC

Edited January 20, 2007 by DcCow

January 20, 2007

Assail away, my friend! As a handi-cacher this is a pet peeve of mine!

The more noise you make about this issue the beter off we are.

I think Reviewers should question every listing submission rated Terrain = 1 to ask if it's truly accessible or if the cache owner is too lazy to rate it correctly... that's the only way I see we'll ever get folks to use the 1 Terrain rating properly.

Currently everyone that submits a cache has an option of checking the terrain and difficulty by answering that series of questions as they design the cache page. Perhaps if we were forced to fill out that form each time instead of clicking past it ...with the option of manually changing the result if we feel that it is really warrented... it would result in a more informed rating. This week I did a four star out of this area that would be a 2.5 star by local standards.

I agree. I know everybody does not agree with that tool, but if everybody used the same thing, that would take a lot of the guess work out of it.

38.2k · January 20, 2007

Assail away, my friend! As a handi-cacher this is a pet peeve of mine!

The more noise you make about this issue the beter off we are.

I think Reviewers should question every listing submission rated Terrain = 1 to ask if it's truly accessible or if the cache owner is too lazy to rate it correctly... that's the only way I see we'll ever get folks to use the 1 Terrain rating properly.

Currently everyone that submits a cache has an option of checking the terrain and difficulty by answering that series of questions as they design the cache page. Perhaps if we were forced to fill out that form each time instead of clicking past it ...with the option of manually changing the result if we feel that it is really warrented... it would result in a more informed rating. This week I did a four star out of this area that would be a 2.5 star by local standards.

The tool is helpful to get a general idea, but I find that it rates terrain about .5 - 1 star too high if you compare what the tool tells you with what the definitions say.

To answer the OP, one star terrain to me would mean that someone on a wheelchair can get to the cache. In practice I find that it often isn't the case. I found a 1 star terrain cache once that required a bushwack down a steep hill and a stream and a swamp crossing.

Edited January 20, 2007 by briansnat

2.5k · January 20, 2007

I only rate my own caches as 1-star terrain if I could maneuver a non-motorized drugstore-rental wheelchair to the spot and get to the cache while sitting in the chair. I've sat in a couple of wheelchairs before, and tried to move in them, but I have never had to use one to actually get around.

My thinking is a 1-star cache is available to everyone and anyone who wants to hunt it--even the temporarily disabled cacher who is unaccustomed to using a wheelchair or crutches etc. While that means that most of my caches are at least a 1.5, I figure the folks who use wheechairs a lot have have learned a trick or two, and may have chairs better designed for caching, so they won't be daunted if I rate a pretty easy cache a 1.5.

January 20, 2007

Well I finally logged my caches from yesterday. I found 20 all together and the ones that were not Wheel Chair accessible I noted in my logs. I think I was nice and polite while doing it so ( well except for the one where I got hurt) I hope they change the terrain ratings. And I hope they dont delete my find logs. I plan on posting a picture of my bruises once they get really dark black n blue lol.

If you want to check out the log I made for the one I almost lost my life on and got all bloody this is it:

GCTDDZ GCTDDZ

I could have lost my life at this one. It was a simple park and grab. But you had to step down onto a slippery embankment leading down to a lake or something. Straight down it went. If I hadnt grabbed the guard rail...well I dont want to think about that! I hope the terrain is changed quickly on this one...I know alot of people have found it already and I was the ONLY one to have an injury here...but I still think this one should be flagged for a reviewer to change the terrain....it could be deadly if someone on a wheel chair attempted it. In fact I doubt that they would survive such a fall.

I'm so sore this morning. I hope to still attend two events this weekend...a major bushwack cache to attempt at 10 am and a numbers run heading down to RI if I feel better after the bushwack. As long as im caching I can deal with the pain :yikes: <_<

Edited January 20, 2007 by WeatherednBoston

January 20, 2007

Im not a PM so i cant see it, but I feel your pain I was hit by a a couple yeas ago and spent some time in a chair and ended up being carried over a 1 star and I was pissed. I ushly don't mind being bloodied as long as i know it's 5 going into it.

6.7k · January 20, 2007

... spent some time in a chair and ended up being carried over a 1 star...

Well, if I had to be carried to a cache it'd definitely be a 5, because any cacher that can carry me would certainly deserve the title 'special equipment'! <_<

On a more serious note, please don't get carried away with making things easy!

Fairly smooth (not necessarily flat) terrain is all that's needed to make an accessible hide.

Accessible does not mean that it has to be easy - the difficulty level is not related to terrain level here... great, clever, even evil, hides are appreciated by all. Let the same things and locations that guide you to hide any other cache guide you to hide accessible ones!

Losing some mobility does not mean we've lost our appreciation of cleverness or enjoyment of all the things that make any hide a good one (as in real estate, 3 things make a hide great - location, location, location!).

I don't ever want my request that you consider placing an accessible cache to be interpreted as asking you to make it easy! :yikes:

24.7k · January 20, 2007

I spent the day going after 1 star terrain caches. I have been told by many people that 1 star Terrain Caches are HANDICAP Accesible...wheel chairs...crutches

Have I been given incorrect information? 9 out of 10 caches I did today needed a bushwack, a log hop or a wall hop....before I log these caches...I need to know the truth.

The answer is really going to affect my logs...because I came back bleeding, bruised and just plain angry.

Thank you!

You were given correct information. 9 out of 10 geocache owners can't rate their caches correctly. Set a good example!

One of my employees recently broke a leg and is on crutches. Her views have just changed. Even in her own house. (My house is also horrible in this regard).

2.2k · January 20, 2007

The form is really handy, but I don't think it makes it really clear. "Some Slight Elevation Changes" can mean different things to different people. I've never been in a wheelchair nor any close relatives have been in a wheelchair, so I might be a bit naive when it comes to determining if something is acceptable for handicapped folks.

If I've underrated a cache, it's purely out of just plain old not knowing any better.

I think the best idea I've heard yet is putting the burden a bit more on the cache reviewers to get clarification when a 1/1 comes across their desks. IMO

6.7k · January 20, 2007

I think the best idea I've heard yet is putting the burden a bit more on the cache reviewers to get clarification when a 1/1 comes across their desks. IMO

Let's don't forget an accessible cache needn't be 1/1 - it can be 1/1-5!

Terrain and Difficulty are not necessarily related... a 1/4 can be accessible but still darn tough to find!

My suggested trigger for a reminder, and that which I believe some Reviewers use today, is strictly 1 terrain, regardless of difficulty.

Once 1 Terrain, wheelchair access, is ruled out you rate the cache like any other.

January 20, 2007

I rate the terrain as 1 if you can get to the cache site in a wheelchair. The difficulty I have a bit of trouble with as several that I list as terrain 1 will require standing or bending to ground level to retrieve the cache. If it cannot be logged from the wheelchair I will list it as difficulty 1.5 at least.

2.2k · January 21, 2007

Let's don't forget an accessible cache needn't be 1/1 - it can be 1/1-5!

Terrain and Difficulty are not necessarily related... a 1/4 can be accessible but still darn tough to find!

That's good info to have. I'm guilty of doing a 1/1 because it was a park and grab, but looking back (it's archived now) it would have been rather difficult for someone to get in a wheelchair. I can only imagine the frustration after getting to the cache and not being able to retrieve it because the terrain info was wrong.

January 21, 2007

Handicaching is the best way I know of to rate a cache to take in various levels of handicaps, i.e. a terrain of "2" could be rated here. It also allows one to link ther rating to the cache page.

January 21, 2007

Handicaching is the best way I know of to rate a cache to take in various levels of handicaps, i.e. a terrain of "2" could be rated here. It also allows one to link ther rating to the cache page.

Wow, what a great link! More people should be aware of this site and I plan on spreading the word and adding them to all my Handicaches.

20.7k · January 21, 2007

I rate the terrain as 1 if you can get to the cache site in a wheelchair. The difficulty I have a bit of trouble with as several that I list as terrain 1 will require standing or bending to ground level to retrieve the cache. If it cannot be logged from the wheelchair I will list it as difficulty 1.5 at least.

Technically, I believe that those should still be rated as a 1. While wheelchairs are discussed much in this thread, they are not part of the definition of a terrain of 1. If they were, we wouldn't need the wheelchair attribute.

3k · January 21, 2007

I rate the terrain as 1 if you can get to the cache site in a wheelchair. The difficulty I have a bit of trouble with as several that I list as terrain 1 will require standing or bending to ground level to retrieve the cache. If it cannot be logged from the wheelchair I will list it as difficulty 1.5 at least.
Technically, I believe that those should still be rated as a 1. While wheelchairs are discussed much in this thread, they are not part of the definition of a terrain of 1. If they were, we wouldn't need the wheelchair attribute.

I agree.

While the terrain elevation question on the Clayjar Rating System form does say "Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc.", the actual Clayjar definition of a terrain rating of 1 doesn't specifically address the standing or bending to ground level issue, nor does it mention wheelchairs at all:

Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

3k · January 21, 2007

Handicaching is the best way I know of to rate a cache to take in various levels of handicaps, i.e. a terrain of "2" could be rated here. It also allows one to link ther rating to the cache page.

While I think the handicaching seal and link is a great idea (I have a cache that has used the seal for more than 2 years), I am curious as to what others have experienced in terms of getting visitors to use the link to rate caches. In the two+ years the link has been on my cache page, only two visitors have submitting ratings.

6.5k · January 21, 2007

I kinda speed read this thread, but didn't see anyone suggest to the OP that they email the cache owner directly. As Palmetto posted, she and other reviewers may make mention of this issue during the cache review. But since it isn't addressed in the guidelines it will not hold up the publication of the cache. If the cache owner isn't responsive to the reviewer's comments, perhaps they will be when the finders send them a direct email? Or not...

I too find that the clayjar system overrates by .5*, but it's a very generalized analysis. What may be a 3* terrain here in NC would probably be a 1.5 or 2 in areas with greater elevation changes.

1.1k · January 21, 2007

I have seen the handicaching site before, but never really related to the reason of it's exsistance until I was reading the posts to this thread. I quickly went through the 53 caches that I have hidden and made sure of the accurate 1* terrain caches that I have. I only have 2 that are active right now, and they are indeed handi-friendly! I will be adding the handicaching link to them right away.

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate cache find WeatherednBoston....you have a vary valid point you are bringing out here.

20.7k · January 21, 2007

Wavector accidently posted this response in another thread. I'll answer it here.

Ummm, handicapped does not necessarily mean 'wheelchair'.
Any cache intended to be "accessible for the handicapped" can be found by people confined to a wheelchair, this seems very simple and straightforward. Many conditions fall under the umbrella of the word disabled but there is no definition, that I am aware of, that excludes those "confined to wheelchairs".
Do me a favour sbell111 and describe a cache that is "accessible for the handicapped" but those "confined to wheelchairs" cannot reach it?

I do not think you can do this.

Since my accident, I've quite often had to use a cane to get around. This has limited my caching, but not stopped it. On one cache hunt, the cache was a nano hidden on a sign. The cache was about six feet off the ground. I was able to log it, even with my handicap. Someone who was truly wheelchair bound would not have been able to log it without assistance. The cache used a correct terrain rating of 1 and did not have the wheelchair attribute.

24.7k · January 21, 2007

...While the terrain elevation question on the Clayjar Rating System form does say "Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc.", the actual Clayjar definition of a terrain rating of 1 doesn't specifically address the standing or bending to ground level issue, nor does it mention wheelchairs at all:

Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

That's an interesting ovservation. I've always read the quick description and picked up on the wheelchair comment and ran with it. Having thought about it though I'm sticking with the wheelchair on a 1 terrain. Mostly because actual Department of Justice Guidelines on accessabiliyt are skewed quite heavily towards wheelchair users.

Thus the cache 6' up would be at least a 1.5 for terrain. It's out of reach of a chair user.

3k · January 21, 2007

Thus the cache 6' up would be at least a 1.5 for terrain. It's out of reach of a chair user.

How would you rate the same cache if it was on the ground?

24.7k · January 21, 2007

Thus the cache 6' up would be at least a 1.5 for terrain. It's out of reach of a chair user.

How would you rate the same cache if it was on the ground?

1.5. Still out of reach...though I have to admit, I haven't been consistant about that in the past.

What would you consider to be a 1 star Terrain Cache

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