Benchmarking in Canada

[+6paws]

I know there are a few benchmarks in my area and would like to record them as finds. It disapointed me when I searched for a place to report Canadian benchmarks but none existed. After putting the question of 'why' to geocaching.com, it was suggested we (North of 49) try to find out if there is an interest or avenue to follow. So ... anyone with benchmark desire ... please post here and express your wishes (at least, at this time I am unable to find a place for logging benchmark finds).

[+shearzone]

I know there are a few benchmarks in my area and would like to record them as finds. It disapointed me when I searched for a place to report Canadian benchmarks but none existed. After putting the question of 'why' to geocaching.com, it was suggested we (North of 49) try to find out if there is an interest or avenue to follow. So ... anyone with benchmark desire ... please post here and express your wishes (at least, at this time I am unable to find a place for logging benchmark finds).

 

We already do it here in Alberta as part of a virtual cache, but it would be nice to have something more official.

[+The Blue Quasar]

With regard to Canadian Benchmarks, there is another Groundspeak site that does allow you to list and log them but it is not Geocaching.

 

Canadian Benchmarks

 

However, these will not count towards your Geocaching profile like the US Benchmarks would.

 

I only provide this option to you as an alternative. This is not intended to promote Waymarking in any way. Nor is it intended to start a discussion about the positives and negatives of Waymarking. That discussion has no place in Geocaching Forums.

 

Should you decide to follow the provided link, you can sign in using the same user name and password as you would on Geocaching or the Groundspeak Forums.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+fm2f90x]

I've looked at the Find A Benchmark thing on geocaching.com and was disappointed that it was only for the US. I would look for benchmarks if I knew where to find the co-ords.

 

Tom

[+2happy2gether]

Blue Quasar:

 

I have visited the site that you have mentioned and have found it not as user firendly as this site. I have also posed this question about Canadian benchmarks. We would like to see Canadian Benchmarks added to geocaching.com. I don't believe that this would be an enormous task, and would be as easy as brining back the earthcache feature. There are plenty of us here in the "Great White North" who know of at least several benchmarks. All we would need is the format similar to the American format, for recording benchmarks.

 

Why are we, as Canadians, being denied the opportunity to expand our influence on this fantastic hobby?

[+islander1988]

Yup, I'd like to see Canadian benchmarks added. If it can be done in the US, it'd be nice to have the option here.

[+dragonflys]

It would be great to have it up here as well

[+The Blue Quasar]

Blue Quasar:

 

I have visited the site that you have mentioned and have found it not as user firendly as this site. I have also posed this question about Canadian benchmarks. We would like to see Canadian Benchmarks added to geocaching.com. I don't believe that this would be an enormous task, and would be as easy as brining back the earthcache feature. There are plenty of us here in the "Great White North" who know of at least several benchmarks. All we would need is the format similar to the American format, for recording benchmarks.

 

Why are we, as Canadians, being denied the opportunity to expand our influence on this fantastic hobby?

 

As I said

I only provide this option to you as an alternative. This is not intended to promote Waymarking in any way. Nor is it intended to start a discussion about the positives and negatives of Waymarking. That discussion has no place in Geocaching Forums.

 

If you want this feature added to Geocaching... use this link contact@Groundspeak.com and best of luck.

 

As I am not willing to debate the ease-of-use or speculate on why Benchmarks are available for Americans only, all I can say is this....

 

Currently you cannot list or log Canadian Benchmarks on Geocaching.com, and if you want to petition Groundspeak then use the email listed above.

 

Good luck.

 

The Blue Quasar

[South Surrey Scavengers]

I took up the task of getting Canadian Benchmarks added to Geocaching.com about 2 years ago. I contacted geocaching.com about it and I contacted the people at CSRS which has a huge database of Canadian Benchmarks. I found out that Geocaching.com in fact acquired the database from CSRS a long time ago. Why GC decided not to add Canadian Benchmarks I do not know and they have never told me. I had asked for the database to be added to GC but with no success.

 

Fast forward a year and Waymarking comes out. My bellyaching resulted in me being given the ownership of the Canadian Benchmark Waymarking Category. I continued to pursue the uploading of the database to Waymarking.com but again no success. I have now given up trying to convince TPTB that they should upload the database. Unfortunately, the category now requires each individual benchmark to be submitted. There is no way a database of 100,000's will ever be entered by the handful of active users at Waymarking. And it really takes the fun out of benchmarking which should be databased based and you go out and look for them just the way the US database was set up. The US version has had great success. But even there GC has not updated the database over time and has relegated all new US benchmarks to the Waymarking site as well. I guess Canadian Benchmarking will continue in a limited capacity (with about 200 listed now) with a few loyal and keen benchmarkers but it will never grow to the size that it could be.

[+2happy2gether]

There seems to be enough interest in the category to warrant a look into it. If maintaining the database is an issue, there are counteless numbers of us who would - I'm sure - have no problem donating their time. We already put the odd hour here and there into this hobby, and I know adding another dimension to it would cause no extra stress around here.

 

I downloaded the CSRS list from their website to all benchmarks within a 10 km radius. I got something in the neighborhood of 50 pages. Now it's just a matter of getting out there and checking them out. This task woulnd't be difficult as I'm out there already. Am I making this seem too simplistic?

 

Maybe it's just me and my, "Make a molehill out of a mountain," mentality.

[+canuck thistles]

we also do not understand why the american policy is different from the canadian policy on benchmarking. seems to me it should be a level playing field. seems to me geocaching should be geocaching wherever you are. the same plicies and rules should be in place wherever you geocache ...

[+res2100]

I too would like to see all of the Canadian Benchmarks added to the gc.com database. There's only a few American benchmarks that are actually in Canada...ie close to the boarders on the Canadian side.

 

I recall gc.com saying that they would add them if they could get a list, so I don't know why they haven't added it. South Surrey Scavengers, do you think there is any chance for us Canadians to get that list of Canadian benchmarks in a file that can be distributed to anyone that wants them?

 

As for Waymarking.com I once really liked that site and thought it had great potential, but I have lost total interest over the past year in Waymarking and only see it as a great missed potential on groundspeaks part for their lack of a clear vision. Perhaps things have changed for the better over at Waymarking.com, and if it has, great, but I wouldn't know either way, since I don't follow Waymarking anymore.

 

Perhaps if one of the Canadian Reviewers could get involved and talk to Groundspeak about adding Canadian benchmarks, it might have better results than any of us members.

[+2happy2gether]

Res,

 

I can answer that question about the list. You have to do a query at the CSRS website, after creating an account. The file is downloaded as a .pdf. That's how I did it anyways.

 

My thinking would be that we each run a query for a certain section close to your home co-ords, then, while out caching, go find the benchmarks and record them as you would all of the critical benchmark information. There is an actual format.

 

Cheers,

 

I'll sign a petition in a heartbeat.

Edited January 17, 2007 by 2happy2gether

[+DyverDown]

As you can see this has been a request for some time on GC

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...p;p=entry

 

DD

[+Landsharkz]

We'd like to see Canadian Benchmarks added - it would be a welcome addition to our repertoire of caches. Can we get a cool unique icon too? Maybe a benchmark with a maple leaf... like 3 Geeks coin?

[South Surrey Scavengers]

Well ok, I'm stirring the pot again to see what kind of response we will get. In the past I sent numerous e-mails to contact@geocaching.com and then contact@Waymarking.com and had some correspondence with TPTB but didnt' really get a clear answer on why the database was never uploaded and now it has been relegated to Waymarking which has some interest but far less than if it was on geocaching. Maybe the return of Earthcaches is a sign of things to come.

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

and I'm pretty sure loads of cachers in the UK would like the Ordnance Survey Trig Points (Benchmarks) added too...

[+2happy2gether]

If I'm not mistaken it seems that most, if not all, of the interest is leaning towards geocaching.com anyways.

 

I have a lot of 2 cents to offer and I keep getting blank stares from Mrs happy. I'd like to see this unfold, even just a little bit at a time. I haven't seen the US benchmarks though so I have nothing to offer as far as formatting goes. Is it similar to the format on the other Grouondspeak site?

[South Surrey Scavengers]

Go have a look under Find A benchmark on the main page. It is a preloaded database of benchmarks that geocachers can "find" and log. I live near the US border so quite a few show up close to my home. But the one just a couple of blocks from me in Canada does not show up.

[+6paws]

Ok I hadn't realized this was under discussion in the past. If there is something that can be done I would participate in way of support. Perhaps people are very busy and can't find the front of themselves and that is why 'benchmarks' in Canada haven't made the grade yet. I know a lot of supporters are volunteers adn i don't fully undersand who gets paid for doing what ... I do appreciate what is available for services, I guess I would enjoy something different, to be a reward, somwthing to stumble across ...

[+PDOP's]

This post by Elias explains the major problem.

[South Surrey Scavengers]

This post by Elias explains the major problem.

Not really, notwithstanding the broken link to the License Agreement, Groundspeak contacted the people that administer the CSRS database and got a copy of the entire database from them. Why would a copy of the CSRS database be sent to Groundspeak? Perhaps during the negotiation of the use of the database a deal fell through. Groundspeak doesn't seem to be telling us what happened. Quoting a published License Agreement does not clear up why the database could not be used. Even the License Agreement allows for the use of the data with written permission. Was that ever attempted? We do not know.

[+2happy2gether]

Is the CSRS not a Federal agency? Does the public not have a right to use information held as public record for use in non-profit events?

 

Do I make sense?

[+Red90]

I'm not sure about other provinces, but all Alberta survey control points (~32000) are available in excel format here: http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/land/dos/gspub.html

[+stagunner]

Agreed, why noy let Canadians get in on this too, not like he information is going to be used maliciously, after all if you drive by and see a benchmark all you have to do is mark it and then you have the coordinates, not accurate but good for navigation.

NRFCan could send the info in a slightly less accurate format if needed,,

 

i was planning to use survey control points as caches ,,, more to follow

 

Kerry

[South Surrey Scavengers]

I'm not sure about other provinces, but all Alberta survey control points (~32000) are available in excel format here: http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/land/dos/gspub.html

That's a nice setup for Alberta. If its a licensing agreement issue then why can we access this "public" data and enter into Waymarking.com ourselves. If we can enter one at a time in pursuit of Waymarking or geocaching then why not enter all of them quickly and likely more accurately than having hundreds or thousands of different people entering it manually.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Count our vote for Canadian benchmarks on GC.com.

[+JDandDD]

Is the CSRS not a Federal agency? Does the public not have a right to use information held as public record for use in non-profit events?

 

Do I make sense?

As a former government employee I always cringe when I see that argument. The answer is perhaps. Not every bit of information that the government holds is available to the public, think Social Security number, health card number etc. You can't get full lists of those.

 

Ok, enough on that. Just because its government info doesn't mean its public info.

 

In the case of Benchmarks, you can get the entire database via an account and running a search for all benchmarks. However, the government isn't going to give it away to a private business, especially an American one, so that they can make money on it without paying for it. Afterall, it costs the government (read all taxpayers) money to create that list and maintain it. It makes sense that if someone is going to make money on it then they should pay for it.

 

Remember, Groundspeak is a business, and it is American. So, they have to pay a license fee if the government is willing to let them have it (probably be some terms of use and distribution issues).

 

If you want to have it for a non-profit event then you can get it, just don't make money on it.

 

JD

[South Surrey Scavengers]

Is the CSRS not a Federal agency? Does the public not have a right to use information held as public record for use in non-profit events?

 

Do I make sense?

As a former government employee I always cringe when I see that argument. The answer is perhaps. Not every bit of information that the government holds is available to the public, think Social Security number, health card number etc. You can't get full lists of those.

 

Ok, enough on that. Just because its government info doesn't mean its public info.

 

In the case of Benchmarks, you can get the entire database via an account and running a search for all benchmarks. However, the government isn't going to give it away to a private business, especially an American one, so that they can make money on it without paying for it. Afterall, it costs the government (read all taxpayers) money to create that list and maintain it. It makes sense that if someone is going to make money on it then they should pay for it.

 

Remember, Groundspeak is a business, and it is American. So, they have to pay a license fee if the government is willing to let them have it (probably be some terms of use and distribution issues).

 

If you want to have it for a non-profit event then you can get it, just don't make money on it.

 

JD

While I never got a clear response as to why Groundspeak didn't use the CSRS database that it got, it may very well be a license fee issue or some other issue with the license agreement. If that's the reason they could just tell us that and stop the speculation. We could then move on to other issues.

[+Riverside]

Add my name to the list of users requesting Canadian Benchmarks be listed in GC.

There are alternatives to paying a licensing fee. We could just find them and list them blindly if Groudspeak would help.

When the geomatics see that we are updating their recovery lists , like they are in the US and realize that we are an asset and a resource they might see things differently.

Benchmarks are now updated on an annual basis in the US. As for Canada's who knows ?

I would like to know what kind of clout us Canadians have here?

[+JDandDD]

While I never got a clear response as to why Groundspeak didn't use the CSRS database that it got, it may very well be a license fee issue or some other issue with the license agreement. If that's the reason they could just tell us that and stop the speculation. We could then move on to other issues.

I agree completely. In another thread (sometime ago) about Waymarking benchmarks, I made the statement that either US Benchmarks should be part of Waymarking or other Benchmarks should become part of geocaching.com. I said that one of these should be done for the sake of fairness to the entire geocaching community.

 

Groundspeak (my memory says Jeremy) replied that fairness was the important thing and was being considered. It is now several months later and we still haven't seen any movement on that fairness. Groundspeak really does have to start treating 'the rest of the world' equally to the US.

 

JD

[+mrking]

CDN Benchmarks on GC.com have my vote.

[+hidnseek]

CDN Benchmarks on GC.com have my vote.

 

My vote too.

[+TheRealZed]

I say yes to Canadian Benchmarks!

[+fizbot]

I'm personally not interested in benchmark hunting. Yes I've tried it and there is that sense of excitement when you find what you're looking for, but since the benchmark is a somewhat arbitrary reference point I get no sense of discovery from where you are (often in the middle of a sidewalk on the side of some arbitrary street.). I'd much rather hunt for an cache where the hider has put some conscious thought into it and has a reason for bringing you to that spot be it a view, or a hike or for a special hide. (yes there are exceptions to both of these statements, but I'd point out that they are the exception, not the rule)

 

US Benchmarks were an early addition to the GC site just like virtual and locationless caches, but to me it doesn't really seem like it's in the "spirit" of Geocaching anymore as there is no cache to find. Given how these other items have been moved off, I would not be surprised if the US Benchmarks were moved off to another site in the future either, although there is a lot of legacy momentum behind them and it is probably not worth the hassle of moving just to keep things "fair" for other countries.

 

If you just want to find benchmarks, is there something wrong with using the existing publicly available DB's and logging your finds on the Waymarking or navicache sites? Is there a compelling reason why it has to go onto the GC site?

 

There are LOTS of things that people would like added to the GC site as you can see from reading the 100,000+ posts on the Groundspeak Forums > General Geocaching Discussions > Geocaching.com Web Site forum list. Why should Canadian benchmarks (and through fairness, all the benchmarks for all the other countries of the world) take precedence?

[+Juicepig]

I vote yes, but i really doubt i will live to see the day (unless we invade the US, or vice versa)

[+Couparangus]

A few years ago I went looking for some very old benchmarks. It was mildly amusing to go bushwhacking looking for old bridge abutments on decommissioned railway lines and such. Being a local history junky I get a charge out of this kind of thing. However, attempting to find sidewalk embedded survey discs strikes me as an activity with no redeeming value and a very poor use of free time.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Couparangus

[+bobbarley]

I like the idea of hunting benchmarks as a way of keeping the government appraised of the status of the system. I have searched for a few and found even less.

[+LeGodFather]

Count our vote for Canadian benchmarks on GC.com.

I'd like it too..

 

I like the idea of hunting benchmarks as a way of keeping the government appraised of the status of the system. I have searched for a few and found even less.

This is a good idea, but would an American company help the Canadian Government for free?

[+THE RED FOX RAIDERS]

Yes! great idea, let's bring benchmarking caching to Canada. I know were I can finds three very quickly in Halifax N.S.

[South Surrey Scavengers]

Yes! great idea, let's bring benchmarking caching to Canada. I know were I can finds three very quickly in Halifax N.S.

Well you can at least add them to Waymarking.com. Click on the link in my sig.

[+Cottage Man]

Yes! great idea, let's bring benchmarking caching to Canada. I know were I can finds three very quickly in Halifax N.S.

Well you can at least add them to Waymarking.com. Click on the link in my sig.

Yes we in Nova Scotia can put our selves on the benchmarking map just like our friends in the south. There a lot of good benchmarking site to choose from.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Cottage Man

[+VO2WW]

Yes let's bring benchmarking caching to Canada.

[+2quigs]

Does anyone know where to get a list of Canadian Geodetic benchmarks? When you search for benchmarks on the Geocaching.com site, it doesn't give any results. Apparently, it's only for US benchmarks. Thanks for any info here.

[+PDOP's]

Lots of previous discussions(link) about this subject.

[+2quigs]

Lots of previous discussions(link)[/url] about this subject.

 

Wow. you're right. Thanks for that. I also added my support to adding "Canadian benchmarks" to GC.com but it appears, from all the posts, that may not happen. Shame.

[+mattie]

Does anyone know where to get a list of Canadian Geodetic benchmarks? When you search for benchmarks on the Geocaching.com site, it doesn't give any results. Apparently, it's only for US benchmarks. Thanks for any info here.

 

Visit the National Resources Canada web site NRCan.gc.ca They will grant a one year UserID and Password to use their data base. A wealth of info to be had but not all for the faint of heart but a great learning experience. In one section you just inter your long & lats and a radius and it will give you all the Bench Marks within that circle with its info.--- mattie in Nova Scotia

[+Cache-tech]

Merged new thread with previous thread.

[+THE RED FOX RAIDERS]

Thanks mattie for the up date and web site

[+greywynd]

Add my name to the list of users requesting Canadian Benchmarks be listed in GC. Since the American ones are there, either get the Canadian ones listed there, or move the American ones to Waymarking. We pay the same membership fees as they do, we should have equal treatment.

 

I've looked around the Waymarking site, and it seems difficult to use, not to mention how different it is from GC.com. As it is, I really can't say I'm going to be an eager user of Waymarking.com, just too slow and too awkward to use.

 

Greywynd