Farm caching

[+nutlady]

.... And I do know for sure that it was placed without permission. ...

I just reread your initial post. It did not appear from that post that you absolutely knew that the cache in question was placed without permission. That leaves two possible scenarios. Either you knew that it was placed without permission and did not say it, or you don't know that it is without permission and you are merely saying that now to make your case stronger. If it's the first option, I have to wonder why you didn't simply contact the reviewer or post an SBA. If it is the second, shame on you.

 

Ok , I will take the shame on me. Im used to it.

It was only after I saw where the cache was and started this topic, that I sent a note to the cache placer.

See why I didnt want to start this topic? I kinda figured it would turn out this way, and I just want to be friends with all of you.

The placement in question was far worser then then then the 7-8 other like wise caches. And i WILL ADMIT to looking for the others, and posted notes to each of them did they have permission.

I got a post late last night from the hider, no , no permission. What makes it harder for me, I know him personally. If he was anonynous, I would have contacted the approver. Im really hoping he sees this thread. I hold him and his hides in high esteem. But this cache hiden a few feet from the mailbox and inview of the house. ....

Heres what I would do.....take plate numbers and call police while loading my gun.

Look, A micro stuck to somthing in town....which is most likely private, no ones going to notice. A Micro 10 miles outa town on a farms pump, or WHAT have you....thats going to be caught.

Id rather be a snitch then have someone find buck shot up their hiney.

And thats all I am trying to alleviate. Not to mention the BAD news coverage this would produce in our little news rags further bringing down the sport.

Really, thats all! Otherwise I am fair game!

[+FireRef]

Well, to clarify I really am talking about caches where the need for permission is clearer than that of a roadside ROW.

 

Specifically the OP's case of a machine (pump) on someone's private property.

Ed, I know what you mean. I'm just pointing out that it's not always obvious. In my younger days, I worked for Zellwin Farms, in Zellwood Fl, as a grove chemical applicant. My boss would determine what the grove(s) needed and give me my marching orders. Most of the time this involved mixing large quantities of chemicals with water which was supplied from the farm's primary well. This well was literally right on the edge of a privately maintained road. The downspout actually swung out over the road. Someone thinking it was a public roadway could easily assume the well was on the right of way. Not a real bright conclusion, but a possible one.

 

I think you have to be careful with this right-of-way thing also. In our area, which is a city, on my street, there is a boulevard, and a 30' right of way extnding out from the middle of it - it goes probabably 10 feet up onto my front lawn, halfway to my house from the sidewalk. Do I expect that that is "public land" anyone can use? Not quite... The city can do what they want with that space - but the general public would have a hard time defending its use of that 30' beyond the sidewalk (which takes you to maybe 20').

 

I can see side of the road - like a guardrail. Beyond that, on to private property, I doubt your "right of way" argument would get you very far in defending the use of that land for Geocaching (or camping, or any other use by the general public) on someone's property without permission.

[+FireRef]

.... And I do know for sure that it was placed without permission. ...

I just reread your initial post. It did not appear from that post that you absolutely knew that the cache in question was placed without permission. That leaves two possible scenarios. Either you knew that it was placed without permission and did not say it, or you don't know that it is without permission and you are merely saying that now to make your case stronger. If it's the first option, I have to wonder why you didn't simply contact the reviewer or post an SBA. If it is the second, shame on you.

 

Ok , I will take the shame on me. Im used to it.

It was only after I saw where the cache was and started this topic, that I sent a note to the cache placer.

See why I didnt want to start this topic? I kinda figured it would turn out this way, and I just want to be friends with all of you.

The placement in question was far worser then then then the 7-8 other like wise caches. And i WILL ADMIT to looking for the others, and posted notes to each of them did they have permission.

I got a post late last night from the hider, no , no permission. What makes it harder for me, I know him personally. If he was anonynous, I would have contacted the approver. Im really hoping he sees this thread. I hold him and his hides in high esteem. But this cache hiden a few feet from the mailbox and inview of the house. ....

Heres what I would do.....take plate numbers and call police while loading my gun.

Look, A micro stuck to somthing in town....which is most likely private, no ones going to notice. A Micro 10 miles outa town on a farms pump, or WHAT have you....thats going to be caught.

Id rather be a snitch then have someone find buck shot up their hiney.

And thats all I am trying to alleviate. Not to mention the BAD news coverage this would produce in our little news rags further bringing down the sport.

Really, thats all! Otherwise I am fair game!

 

I have to agree - I read all the way through this thread, and this is a good attitude to take. I would have no clue what is public and what is private out in the boonies (no insult intended - i'm a city boy), unless it is posted, which I have noticed in my travels, some is, and some isn't (and is obviously private property, just not posted).

 

This idea of not being the cache police - we have to police ourselves, or otherwise, we won't have a game/sport to do. If the police (real police) start handling these kinds of things, or people get shot because of the game, all it does it hurt the rest of us. (well, it hurts the person shot more... heh, but you get my point). Yes, we probably shouldn't go out of our way to look for (and I don't mean hunt for... i mean look at the postings for...) ones which we don't feel are appropriate. But I certainly would hope that someone who is familiar with some specific aspect of land (such as water wells, etc) would open their mouth when they see a posting come up, or attempt to hunt a cache, which in their experience, and to their knowledge, doesn't belong there. This can only help the rest of us.

 

Better safe than sorry. And I don't mind people looking out for my safety in this regard.

[Clan Riffster]

If permission is mentioned on the page then I know that at least the cache owner is aware of the guideline and claims to have met the requirement. So to me, a note on the page is not meaningless.

Another benefit to having a note about permission on the actual cache page is, on the off chance that a cacher is arrested, they cannot be prosecuted. In order to prosecute someone for trespassing, the state must demonstrate that the cacher in question intended to enter upon lands without permission. The existence of a note on a cache page would negate that intent. This note would carry an incredible amount of weight if it included the name and contact number of the person who gave said permission.

[+sbell111]

... I got a post late last night from the hider, no , no permission. ...

Your options remain to either email the reviewer, post a SBA, or ignore the cache. Edited January 15, 2007 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

Nutlady...I hope you didn't get the feeling I was coming down on you or anything...I was simply making a point (and asking a serious question). I applaud your attempt to keep peace AND keep everyone from harm's way...NOT cache police, just good cache etiquette!!

 

I'd write to, call or visit the cache owner and explain the problem...if this person is TRULY someone who is worthy of your holding them in "high regard", they'll likely do the right thing...if they won't, then you must!! It's for the good of the community and something you should be proud to act upon!!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Consider hosting an event - a CITO or a Meet & Greet.

 

Make a presentation at the event (not a lecture) about the importance of landowner relations and the importance of the guidelines. Maybe print and pass out copies of the guidelines.

 

Better yet invite your Reviewer to come and talk.

 

Communication and the establishment of norms will go a long way.

[+briansnat]

This idea of not being the cache police - we have to police ourselves, or otherwise, we won't have a game/sport to do. If the police (real police) start handling these kinds of things, or people get shot because of the game, all it does it hurt the rest of us.

 

That is true. When we try to sell geocaching to local officals and land managers, we emphasize that the sport is self policing and that we remove inappropriately placed caches from this site when they are reported.

 

If we continue to ignore inappropriately placed caches, we might find that we won't have to worry about policing the sport because the town councils and state legislatures will do it for us. I would have thought the close call we had in SC not long ago would have been a wake-up call.

 

I know there is a large MYOB contingent here. Well I like geocaching and I want the sport to continue to be legal, so I see inappropriately placed caches as my business.

[+sbell111]

This idea of not being the cache police - we have to police ourselves, or otherwise, we won't have a game/sport to do. If the police (real police) start handling these kinds of things, or people get shot because of the game, all it does it hurt the rest of us.

That is true. When we try to sell geocaching to local officals and land managers, we emphasize that the sport is self policing and that we remove inappropriately placed caches from this site when they are reported.

 

If we continue to ignore inappropriately placed caches, we might find that we won't have to worry about policing the sport because the town councils and state legislatures will do it for us. I would have thought the close call we had in SC not long ago would have been a wake-up call.

 

I know there is a large MYOB contingent here. Well I like geocaching and I want the sport to continue to be legal, so I see inappropriately placed caches as my business.

So why don't you give us all an easy way to tell 'inappropriate' caches from the good ones. If I do a numbers run and find fifty caches, am I supposed to spend the next month running down the approvals for those caches? If someone finds them the day after I do, are they also supposed to verify that they wee all appropriately placed? At what point does all of this verifying make the hobby collapse under the pressure?

[+briansnat]

So why don't you give us all an easy way to tell 'inappropriate' caches from the good ones

 

Sure. Read the guidelines and if a cache doesn't, comply it may be inappropriate. If its in a school yard, on a highway bridge or on posted, or otherwise obviously private property there is a strong possiblity that its in violation.

 

At what point does all of this verifying make the hobby collapse under the pressure?

 

I guess it depends on how many caches are in appropriately placed. I can assure you that if they are ignored, there will only be more of them. I don't see it as undue pressure on me. In 6 years of geocaching I've had to do it twice.

[+sbell111]

So why don't you give us all an easy way to tell 'inappropriate' caches from the good ones

Sure. Read the guidelines and if a cache doesn't, comply it may be inappropriate. If its in a school yard, on a highway bridge or on posted, or otherwise obviously private property there is a strong possiblity that its in violation.

At what point does all of this verifying make the hobby collapse under the pressure?

I guess it depends on how many caches are in appropriately placed. I can assure you that if they are ignored, there will only be more of them. I don't see it as undue pressure on me. In 6 years of geocaching I've had to do it twice.

Back to my numbers run example... Probably half of those would be micros placed on private property. From your post, I have to assume that you would expect every cacher to follow up with the owners, reviewer, and land owner for each of those. Is that correct? Have you worked out the math on that?

[+sbell111]

I guess our big difference is that I believe that people, in general, can be trusted. Therefore, I trust them to have adequate permission until I have evidence to the contrary where you assume that everyone would lie about this and feel the need to follow up on everything.

[+briansnat]

Back to my numbers run example... Probably half of those would be micros placed on private property. From your post, I have to assume that you would expect every cacher to follow up with the owners, reviewer, and land owner for each of those. Is that correct? Have you worked out the math on that?

 

I can't speak for where you live, but in close to 700 cache hunts I can only think of one cache that was illegally placed on posted land.

[+sbell111]

Back to my numbers run example... Probably half of those would be micros placed on private property. From your post, I have to assume that you would expect every cacher to follow up with the owners, reviewer, and land owner for each of those. Is that correct? Have you worked out the math on that?

I can't speak for where you live, but in close to 700 cache hunts I can only think of one cache that was illegally placed on posted land.

I've been on a few cache hunts, myself and I can't think of any caches placed illegally on posted land. Of course, neither the caches in my example nor the example in the OP were on posted land.

[Clan Riffster]

Common sense should be applied liberally. Does a lamp post film canister in the front parking lot of Wally World need explicit permission? My personal opinion is "No". That area is what I would consider to be public domain. Wally World built it for their customers, and haven't posted any notices regarding benign, alternative use. Take that same film canister and move it to the loading dock area, and my whole perception changes. Now that cache should have explicit permission, and should state such on the cache page. Behind a store doesn't fit my personal bill in describing "public domain".

[runner_one]

Geocaching's dirty-little-secret is that the vast majority of hides have no permission

 

The majority of hides are placed with out express permission, but there is a difference between hiding caches in a public park without permission and on somebody's propery without permission. The latter is against the law. Its called trespassing.

 

Not necessarily, it depends on state law.

For example in Tennessee, my Home State you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. Below is a direct copy and paste from the Tennessee government website concerning trespassing.

www.state.tn.us

 

Tennessee Code Annotated : TITLE 39 CRIMINAL OFFENSES

39-14-405. Criminal trespass.

 

(a) A person commits criminal trespass who, knowing the person does not have the owner's effective consent to do so, enters or remains on property, or a portion thereof. Knowledge that the person did not have the owner's effective consent may be inferred where notice against entering or remaining is given by:

 

(1) Personal communication to the person by the owner or by someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(2) Fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or

(3) Posting reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

 

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

© For purposes of this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.

(d) Criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor.

 

Under Tennessee law you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. And if the property is open to the public, and you did not interfere with the owner's use of the property and you immediately left the premises upon request you can not be convicted of trespass.

 

Before you jump to a conclusion and possibly cause a cache placer some unnecessary grief because you thought a cache was illegally placed it would be best to consult the laws of the state in which you live.

In Tennessee it is perfectly legal (as long as you don’t interfere with the owner's use of the property)to be on private property WITHOUT permission unless it is posted or fenced or otherwise secured until told to leave by the owner.

This may or may not be true for the state you live in. it is best to check the laws of your state. Most states have a website with links to its laws.

[+briansnat]

Before you jump to a conclusion and possibly cause a cache placer some unnecessary grief because you thought a cache was illegally placed it would be best to consult the laws of the state in which you live.

 

What kind of "grief" would I be causing if I questioned a seemingly inappropriate cache placement? If everything is in order, none. The only way the cache owner will get any grief is if the cache doesn't belong there.

[+Syndam]

Another benefit to having a note about permission on the actual cache page is, on the off chance that a cacher is arrested, they cannot be prosecuted. In order to prosecute someone for trespassing, the state must demonstrate that the cacher in question intended to enter upon lands without permission. The existence of a note on a cache page would negate that intent. This note would carry an incredible amount of weight if it included the name and contact number of the person who gave said permission.

Ummm, you're wrong. You can be prosecuted. A note from a party that does not own or does not have the power to make decisions for said private property does not remove you from the possibility of being prosecuted. If you are on private property with out permission from the land owner or persons with power to make decisions over the use of said property, you are trespassing, period.

 

"I can be on this land, here is a note from my mom. She said it was OK, go throw her in jail...."

 

You may not be thrown in jail if you leave when asked to do so, but you are still trespassing, that's why you where ask to leave.

[+Syndam]

Not necessarily, it depends on state law.

For example in Tennessee, my Home State you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. Below is a direct copy and paste from the Tennessee government website concerning trespassing.

www.state.tn.us

 

Tennessee Code Annotated : TITLE 39 CRIMINAL OFFENSES

39-14-405. Criminal trespass.

 

(a) A person commits criminal trespass who, knowing the person does not have the owner's effective consent to do so, enters or remains on property, or a portion thereof. Knowledge that the person did not have the owner's effective consent may be inferred where notice against entering or remaining is given by:

 

(1) Personal communication to the person by the owner or by someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(2) Fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or

(3) Posting reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

 

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

© For purposes of this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.

(d) Criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor.

 

Under Tennessee law you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. And if the property is open to the public, and you did not interfere with the owner's use of the property and you immediately left the premises upon request you can not be convicted of trespass.

 

Before you jump to a conclusion and possibly cause a cache placer some unnecessary grief because you thought a cache was illegally placed it would be best to consult the laws of the state in which you live.

In Tennessee it is perfectly legal (as long as you don’t interfere with the owner's use of the property)to be on private property WITHOUT permission unless it is posted or fenced or otherwise secured until told to leave by the owner.

This may or may not be true for the state you live in. it is best to check the laws of your state. Most states have a website with links to its laws.

 

You need to read that more carefully with a little bit more of a legal eye.

 

In simple English it says:

If you know you aren't welcome then you are trespassing.

Some of the ways you know you aren't welcome include:

Land owner told you to get the hell of his property.

There is a fence.

There is a sign.

 

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if you haven't spoken to the land owner.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no fence.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no sign.

 

It simply says some of they way you know that you aren't welcome. Which does open up your ability to argue that you didn't know it was private property. Now if the land owner detains you, which he can legally do if he believes you where vandalizing his pump or tipping his cows and the Sheriff that shows up is having a really crappy night because his wife just left him for a guy that looks just like you.... guess where you end up.

 

Here is the kicker though...

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

If you are on private property without consent then you are trespassing, whether you knew it or not.

This possibly requires you to defend yourself in a court of law which cost you money. The cache owner may face penalties also, but that is on a completely different court docket.

 

Be careful about quoting or interpreting the law unless you are a lawyer. Misinformation is a bad thing.

[+Hula Bum]

If you know for sure there is no permission granted then send your reviewer an email AND post it on the page that it needs to be archived (and why)/

 

If you don't know for sure then send the owner an email AND post a note on the cache page asking for clarification. If they don't get back to you, then see above!

 

Sometimes you have to be a responsible cacher (or cache police as it may be) to help prevent a bad rap for cachers.

[Clan Riffster]

Ummm, you're wrong. You can be prosecuted.

Ummm, Yeah, OK.

I've been arresting people for trespassing since '82, and dealing with the State Attorney's office, assorted Judges and gazillions of lawyers as a result.

Here's the Florida statute for trespassing:

 

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.--

 

(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:

 

1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011 commits the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance.

 

I've taken the liberty of highlighting the relevant part. The Florida Supreme Court interpreted this part to mean, if you believe you are allowed to be there, you have not met the elements of the offense. If you haven't met the elements of the offense, you cannot be prosecuted.

 

Other states may vary.

[+roveron]

Roveron, for the most part, there is no malicious intent involved.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I thought there was malicious intent. And I was, I admit, making the assumption the hider would say in the notes something to the effect "Placed under bottom limp of pump housing.", which would be a tip off. But that's a mighty big assumption I agree. My appoliogies to any area approvers who took exception to my post.

[+roveron]

In fact, since a person is requierd to agree that adequate permission fhas been obtained at the time of submittal, a note on teh cache page is superfluous.

The problem with that is it's quite easy to check that you read the guidelines when you didn't, or may have missed a particular bit in them. Typing out on the listing page that you have permission will do two thing, people will know for a fact you do (unless you're lying) and people won't keep interrupting the farmer's chores.

[+Morgan's Marauders]

You can always slip a note to the local reviewer and let him look into it. If its on private property with permission that should be documented somewhere.

 

Yes... and if it is there without permission it should be archived and removed.

 

Wonder how many really read the rules at Geocaching?????? Something like this makes you wonder.

 

Hi, Dilligas!! How's Ohio?

[+Renegade Knight]

What I don't get is why the approver approves them.

When a cache is submitted the owner is certifying they have adequate permission.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's been long enough, What did the cache owner say? Sorry if I missed it in the longer thread.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

The assumption of honesty is what makes our game work, and therein lies the beauty and the risk in our game.

 

I too assume geocacher honesty. I asume that because a cache is listed it has adequate permission.

 

Reviewers have to operate with some level of trust as well - for the most part, unless they have reason to suspect or know better, the submission page checkmarks for 'I have read and will abide by the Guidelines and Terms of Service' have to suffice.

 

The risk, of course, is that the hider either did not in fact read the Guidelines, did not fully understand them, did not recognize that the site needed permission, worded the description such that it raised no flags, or lied to the Reviewer... in any event placing a cache without permission where it is required.

 

The downside to that is sometimes someone gets arrested. It happens.

 

The upside is the millions of uneventful cache finds that occur without incident, thereby proving that the vast majority of geocachers play an honest game.

[+Glock22]

We went to one a few days ago and there were NO Trepassing signs and Fences so we did not cross went on to next came home reread the page and and Placer had posted permission for hide.....Will try again but these pumps are private property and some may be dangerous if they are on timers or something and come on and hurt some one, Also the Farmers are actually looking out for us becouse the Chemicals they spray with can be a hazard also, they have to put up signs Here in Ca, when they Spray but some peeps don't care. I grew up in town and now work in a farm comuninty so i'm learning how Farmers can be and they don't like people around there property....Nut Lady did the right thing by contacting the cache placer and hopefully he/she will understand what the guidelines mean about permission.

 

Just a place to rant.

 

Greg

 

P.S. Nutlady we should make a meet and greet and explain the farmers point of veiw.

[runner_one]

Not necessarily, it depends on state law.

For example in Tennessee, my Home State you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. Below is a direct copy and paste from the Tennessee government website concerning trespassing.

www.state.tn.us

 

Tennessee Code Annotated : TITLE 39 CRIMINAL OFFENSES

39-14-405. Criminal trespass.

 

(a) A person commits criminal trespass who, knowing the person does not have the owner's effective consent to do so, enters or remains on property, or a portion thereof. Knowledge that the person did not have the owner's effective consent may be inferred where notice against entering or remaining is given by:

 

(1) Personal communication to the person by the owner or by someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(2) Fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or

(3) Posting reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

 

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

© For purposes of this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.

(d) Criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor.

 

Under Tennessee law you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. And if the property is open to the public, and you did not interfere with the owner's use of the property and you immediately left the premises upon request you can not be convicted of trespass.

 

Before you jump to a conclusion and possibly cause a cache placer some unnecessary grief because you thought a cache was illegally placed it would be best to consult the laws of the state in which you live.

In Tennessee it is perfectly legal (as long as you don’t interfere with the owner's use of the property)to be on private property WITHOUT permission unless it is posted or fenced or otherwise secured until told to leave by the owner.

This may or may not be true for the state you live in. it is best to check the laws of your state. Most states have a website with links to its laws.

 

You need to read that more carefully with a little bit more of a legal eye.

 

In simple English it says:

If you know you aren't welcome then you are trespassing.

Some of the ways you know you aren't welcome include:

Land owner told you to get the hell of his property.

There is a fence.

There is a sign.

 

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if you haven't spoken to the land owner.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no fence.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no sign.

 

It simply says some of they way you know that you aren't welcome. Which does open up your ability to argue that you didn't know it was private property. Now if the land owner detains you, which he can legally do if he believes you where vandalizing his pump or tipping his cows and the Sheriff that shows up is having a really crappy night because his wife just left him for a guy that looks just like you.... guess where you end up.

 

Here is the kicker though...

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

If you are on private property without consent then you are trespassing, whether you knew it or not.

This possibly requires you to defend yourself in a court of law which cost you money. The cache owner may face penalties also, but that is on a completely different court docket.

 

Be careful about quoting or interpreting the law unless you are a lawyer. Misinformation is a bad thing.

 

You should read section B from the Tennessee Website Again

B It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

Looks Like pretty plain English to me, if its not posted and open and you didnt hurt anything and you left when told to. it's not trespassing!

[+nutlady]

We went to one a few days ago and there were NO Trepassing signs and Fences so we did not cross went on to next came home reread the page and and Placer had posted permission for hide.....Will try again but these pumps are private property and some may be dangerous if they are on timers or something and come on and hurt some one, Also the Farmers are actually looking out for us becouse the Chemicals they spray with can be a hazard also, they have to put up signs Here in Ca, when they Spray but some peeps don't care. I grew up in town and now work in a farm comuninty so i'm learning how Farmers can be and they don't like people around there property....Nut Lady did the right thing by contacting the cache placer and hopefully he/she will understand what the guidelines mean about permission.

 

Just a place to rant.

 

Greg

 

P.S. Nutlady we should make a meet and greet and explain the farmers point of veiw.

 

Thanks Greg. I thought alot about this today. Why did I bring this up....I dont want any hard feelings from anyone, shoulda kept my fingers shut, etc. Then I had a conversation with an ex-farm wife. Shes a cacher too, so I didnt have to explain. It was pointed out to me that I couldnt put a cache on one of my own pumps still in use ( not to confuse with some old rusty thing sitting on seemingly deserted property or somthing) because if my over zealous trigger happy brother didnt catch a cacher and run them off, a neighbor would.

I wouldnt have a problem with a cacher placing a cache near or in a fence post, along a ditch, or in weeds next to a telephone pole on my property. But actual farming equipment in use? Thats my beef.

Like geocaching, farmers police each other too and report any suspicious activity. Theres ALOT of agricultural theft going on here and scrap metal prices are set pretty high right now! Another geocacher was just telling me a few days ago about coming across a chop shop where guys were cutting up irrigation lines to sell for scrap. ( ironically, they would have been worth MORE UN chopped) - Addicted people will do ANYTHING. How many times have I had to chase off folks stealing walnuts in my orchards when the price is "right" at the roadside, cash, no questions asked stands?

Reason I am posting this is because I certainly realize that Geocachers WAY outnumber farmers. And Im QUITE sure none of you mean any malicious harm with your placements. In fact, geocachers are the best people Ive ever met! Yet to meet one I dont like!

I guess I just like the sport too much. Its WAYYYYYYY funner then say, harvest.

I dont want to see bad things happen if they dont need too.

[+Moore9KSUcats]

You've really raised some valid points here. I really think the best thing would be to host an event in your area, being sure to invite people who regularily hide caches in your area. A logical discussion about the equipment, and farmer's concerns (maybe even invite another farmer, to show that you aren't being alarmist about your concerns) may bring about good results. I hope those hiders won't think you are "pointing fingers" at them for bringing up these concerns.

 

If the hiders are wanting to bring people around to see this farm equipment, or something unusual, encourage them to hide them in the ditch, or on the fenceposts, rather than on what is obviously farm equipment.

 

You obviously care about fellow cachers, as well as the well-being of your fellow farmers.

 

This type of thing does come up often, whether it be about caches in parks, preserves, etc. In your case, you have mentioned the possibility of police involvement or possible injury.

 

Some people think, that just because land is there, that it is their right to do what they want at that location, whether or not it is theirs.

 

Malia

[+Syndam]

Not necessarily, it depends on state law.

For example in Tennessee, my Home State you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. Below is a direct copy and paste from the Tennessee government website concerning trespassing.

www.state.tn.us

 

Tennessee Code Annotated : TITLE 39 CRIMINAL OFFENSES

39-14-405. Criminal trespass.

 

(a) A person commits criminal trespass who, knowing the person does not have the owner's effective consent to do so, enters or remains on property, or a portion thereof. Knowledge that the person did not have the owner's effective consent may be inferred where notice against entering or remaining is given by:

 

(1) Personal communication to the person by the owner or by someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(2) Fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or

(3) Posting reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

 

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

© For purposes of this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.

(d) Criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor.

 

Under Tennessee law you are NOT trespassing if the property is open to the public and is not fenced or posted. And if the property is open to the public, and you did not interfere with the owner's use of the property and you immediately left the premises upon request you can not be convicted of trespass.

 

Before you jump to a conclusion and possibly cause a cache placer some unnecessary grief because you thought a cache was illegally placed it would be best to consult the laws of the state in which you live.

In Tennessee it is perfectly legal (as long as you don’t interfere with the owner's use of the property)to be on private property WITHOUT permission unless it is posted or fenced or otherwise secured until told to leave by the owner.

This may or may not be true for the state you live in. it is best to check the laws of your state. Most states have a website with links to its laws.

 

You need to read that more carefully with a little bit more of a legal eye.

 

In simple English it says:

If you know you aren't welcome then you are trespassing.

Some of the ways you know you aren't welcome include:

Land owner told you to get the hell of his property.

There is a fence.

There is a sign.

 

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if you haven't spoken to the land owner.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no fence.

It does NOT say that it is OK to enter private property if there is no sign.

 

It simply says some of they way you know that you aren't welcome. Which does open up your ability to argue that you didn't know it was private property. Now if the land owner detains you, which he can legally do if he believes you where vandalizing his pump or tipping his cows and the Sheriff that shows up is having a really crappy night because his wife just left him for a guy that looks just like you.... guess where you end up.

 

Here is the kicker though...

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

If you are on private property without consent then you are trespassing, whether you knew it or not.

This possibly requires you to defend yourself in a court of law which cost you money. The cache owner may face penalties also, but that is on a completely different court docket.

 

Be careful about quoting or interpreting the law unless you are a lawyer. Misinformation is a bad thing.

 

You should read section B from the Tennessee Website Again

B It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) The property was open to the public when the person entered and remained;

(2) The person's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property; and

(3) The person immediately left the premises upon request.

Looks Like pretty plain English to me, if its not posted and open and you didnt hurt anything and you left when told to. it's not trespassing!

I think this covered section "B" (from above text)

It simply says some of they way you know that you aren't welcome. Which does open up your ability to argue that you didn't know it was private property.

Maybe you should check the meanings of the words.

Section B says its a "Defense"

A "Defense" is not an automatic dismissal. A "Defense" is something you present before a judge. You can tell a cop why you where doing something and he may be OK with it, or he may let a judge decide if you you have a valid "Defense".

A Defense does not make what you are doing OK.

 

In all honesty, I think most police officers would be OK with what you where doing if you where honest about it. But it only take one cop to be in bad mood to really ruin your day.

Lets say the Sheriff is personal friends with the farmer, quite likely in rural areas. Lets say the farmer has been complaining about a lot of GeoCachers at his pump to his friend the Sheriff. Lets say the Sheriff has better things thing to do during the day and decides to make an example of you in hopes of scaring off any future Geocachers. Now you need to have the "Defense" ready for your court date.

 

Edited because My spell check didn't know I meant "off" when I typed "of" - dumb spell checker....

Edited January 17, 2007 by Syndam

[+sbell111]

... Then I had a conversation with an ex-farm wife. Shes a cacher too, so I didnt have to explain. It was pointed out to me that I couldnt put a cache on one of my own pumps still in use ( not to confuse with some old rusty thing sitting on seemingly deserted property or somthing) because if my over zealous trigger happy brother didnt catch a cacher and run them off, a neighbor would. ...

Could you be a dear and post a pic of one of these pumps so we all know what you are referring to?

[+sbell111]

... A "Defense" is not an automatic dismissal. A "Defense" is something you present before a judge. You can tell a cop why you where doing something and he may be OK with it, or he may let a judge decide if you you have a valid "Defense".

A Defense does not make what you are doing OK. ...

Such is life. Any of us can be arrested (or sued) for anything. That doesn't make me stop doing anything. It just makes me aware that I need to behave correctly so I can defend my actions if I need to.

[+Rockin Roddy]

The pumps we use out to our golf course are large, turbine looking, mostly encased , but there are some moving parts on the outside...IF you reach up and under, you may be able to get a finger cut off or something.

 

Ours are housed in a pumphouse, there's an open water pit where the pipes go in and suck up the water into the system. That "well" is probably 20-30' deep and if one were to fall in there, they COULD have trouble getting out! we have warning signs posted and have had no problems with anyone going into the building (actually more like a large shed)...BUT...that pumphouse is in the middle of our course, so not much worry of anyone from outside of the course getting in (and golfers don't mess with that sort of stuff).

 

I would have to guess that anyone attempting to mess with those would be met by mey Dad...and a shotgun! My Dad lives at the course, he's up nearly constantly during the summer (workaholic) and not much goes on that he doesn't know about!

 

If a farmer were like my Dad, a cacher COULD have problems...my Dad isn't going to shoot you, but having a shotgun pointed at you while you're being escorted back to the clubhouse so he can call the police...well, I wouldn't want that experience.

 

Another possible problem would be the electrical hookup...an old pump MAY have antiquated wirings, making them unsafe if someone were to touch the wrong thing...a farmer would be aware of that problem, but would most cachers?? We are a "touchy feely" type, so it's not uncommon for a cacher to feel around under and around wiring or moving parts.

[+beezerb]

You might end up on CNN.....

 

 

Those stories and much more ahead on this AMERICAN MORNING.

 

M. O'BRIEN: Good morning to you. I'm Miles O'Brien.

 

S. O'BRIEN: And I'm Soledad O'Brien.

 

Let's get to those new developments in that E. coli outbreak.

 

There are new cases being reported in Arizona and Colorado today. That brings the total to 23 states that have been affected. A so- called smoking gun has now been found in New Mexico, an open bag of spinach found in the refrigerators of one of the victims. Apparently, it had E. coli on it. FDA investigators are focusing on nine California farms, looking for signs of past flooding or evidence of crops coming into contact with contaminated surface waters.

 

California produces 74 percent of the nation's spinach crop. And as CNN's Ted Rowlands reports for us, that could make it a prime target for agroterrorists.

 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

 

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Long before it ends up neatly packaged in a store, most fresh food is exposed to potential contamination, both accidental and, even more frightening, intentional.

 

JEFF NELKEN, FOOD SAFETY ANALYST: So lots of opportunities for contamination to take place.

 

ROWLANDS: Jeff Nelken is a food safety analyst. He took us at a central California field to show us just how vulnerable the nation's food supply is to so called agroterrorism, starting with the relatively easy public access to crops.

 

NELKEN: You can pretty much look down the highway here and there really isn't any security.

 

ROWLANDS: One way exposed crops, according to Nelken, are vulnerable to contamination, is through tainted irrigation systems. We found this irrigation pump alongside a public road with only a padlock and chain around one of the valves.

 

NELKEN: I would say you can't get any more accessible, because you see the water right here.

 

ROWLANDS: Each field has its own irrigation system which makes mass tampering unlikely. Still, as we've seen with the E. coli contaminated spinach, a small number of food poisoning cases can have a huge effect

 

NELKEN: I just would like it to be better secures. I don't know if I just trust the lock and chain.

 

ROWLANDS: While security is visible at most processing plants, it's almost nonexistent in the fields. Nelken, who believes preventing agroterrorism should be a high priority, even thinks that security cameras should watch over unattended crops.

 

NELKEN: I guess we're on the honesty system. And, you know, the question is, how long do we go on the honesty system?

 

ROWLANDS: Joe Pezzini is vice president of Ocean Mist Farms in Castroville, California. He says farmers' only real defense now is from workers

 

JOE PEZZINI, OCEAN MIST FARMS: Our employees are our eyes and ears out there in the field. And it's a matter of knowing who your employees are, where they're supposed to be, and having them be able to tell you if something is unusual or somebody's out of place.

 

ROWLANDS: Agroterrorism has been identified as a real threat by the U.S. government. Last year at an agroterrorism conference in Kansas City, FBI Director Robert Mueller said, "We know that members of al Qaeda have studied our agriculture industry." The FDA and USDA are working with crop-producing states to find and fix vulnerable areas, but by all accounts there's still a long way to go.

 

Ted Rowlands, CNN, San Juan Bautista, California.

 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[+sbell111]

Ummm, OK.

[migo.yin]

I have an idea. I'll go to a neighbourhood and hide a cache in someone's front lawn, but near the road so that it looks public. What will happen? Hmm... see the analogy here? How would you feel seeing someone snooping around your driveway, near expensive equipment (i.e. your car)?

 

nutlady brought up a valid point and got criticized/shot down for it.

[+sbell111]

I have an idea. I'll go to a neighbourhood and hide a cache in someone's front lawn, but near the road so that it looks public. What will happen? Hmm... see the analogy here? How would you feel seeing someone snooping around your driveway, near expensive equipment (i.e. your car)?

 

nutlady brought up a valid point and got criticized/shot down for it.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but pertty much everyone agrees that if a cache is placed inappropriately, it should be archived. The disagreement is on specific methods that should be used.

 

Related to the specific case that this thread is reference to, I would like to see a pic of the object in question, an idea of exactly where the keyholder was placed on it and the distance it was from the road. I'm also not convinced that we have established that the cache was placed without permission or that it is on private property.

 

All I really know is that a magnetic micro was placed on some kind of pumpmajacallit that is on the side of the road. Without more data, I'm not prepared to get all that excited.

Edited January 17, 2007 by sbell111

[vermontcathy]

Could you be a dear and post a pic of one of these pumps so we all know what you are referring to?

 

Maybe she would have provided a photo if you weren't condescending and called her "dear". Would you have said that to a man? I have a feeling you think she is a medlesome busybody, and that you would give more respect to a man.

[+StarBrand]

If it is private property and no permission was given and you KNOW this to be a fact. Ask for it to be archived. Educate others that these pumps may be dangerous and are alomost always on private property. Not seeing that there is too much more to say here.

Edited January 17, 2007 by StarBrand

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

I have an idea. I'll go to a neighbourhood and hide a cache in someone's front lawn, but near the road so that it looks public. What will happen? Hmm... see the analogy here? How would you feel seeing someone snooping around your driveway, near expensive equipment (i.e. your car)?

 

nutlady brought up a valid point and got criticized/shot down for it.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but pertty much everyone agrees that if a cache is placed inappropriately, it should be archived. The disagreement is on specific methods that should be used.

 

Related to the specific case that this thread is reference to, I would like to see a pic of the object in question, an idea of exactly where the keyholder was placed on it and the distance it was from the road. I'm also not convinced that we have established that the cache was placed without permission or that it is on private property.

 

All I really know is that a magnetic micro was placed on some kind of pumpmajacallit that is on the side of the road. Without more data, I'm not prepared to get all that excited.

 

I'd also like to see a picture so I'll know what kind of pump it is, we don't irrigate much here in Indiana.

I would bet money though that the irrigation well is on private property, as for permission I have no clue.

[+sbell111]

Maybe she would have provided a photo if you weren't condescending and called her "dear". Would you have said that to a man? I have a feeling you think she is a medlesome busybody, and that you would give more respect to a man.

Whatever.

[+ibycus]

... Then I had a conversation with an ex-farm wife. Shes a cacher too, so I didnt have to explain. It was pointed out to me that I couldnt put a cache on one of my own pumps still in use ( not to confuse with some old rusty thing sitting on seemingly deserted property or somthing) because if my over zealous trigger happy brother didnt catch a cacher and run them off, a neighbor would. ...

Could you be a dear and post a pic of one of these pumps so we all know what you are referring to?

 

Yes, please do. Not being a farmer I'm having a hard time picturing this.

 

I think most people responding to this thread are picturing something like an oil pump in the middle of the field or some such thing. From the OP, I can tell this isn't what you mean.

 

Are these things located inside or outside of the fence boundaries? I'm not saying its right either way to encourage uninformed people to go mess with expensive pieces of farm equipment, just trying to understand how it happend in the first place.

 

Is it possible the people doing it don't know these things are privately owned? Or possibly don't understand how much a farmer could get pissed off with them for someone 'messing' with their pump? If as you say you live in a highly agricultural area, your local caching population really needs to be educated on 'farm-ettiquette'

 

I'm feeling after reading this thread that the people placing these cache may have no idea that they are doing something bad, and your note to the owner carries about as much weight as someone telling them that they just don't like the style of the hide.

[+Team Perks]

I think these are the kinds of things that nutlady is talking about.

 

 

 

I think it's quite clear why poking around these could be construed as intending to vandalize or contaminate.

 

I've found a few caches on these and similar pumps--though never on active farmlands (the area where I used to live had a lot of disused/abandoned agricultural lands). Usually they're right by the side of the road, and are unfenced.

[+beezerb]

Okay this is not a link to a picture of an irrigation pump

http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/North_Ame...photo443460.htm

 

It is however a standpipe for a deep well irrigation system. I don't think any rice farmer would give you permission to invite the general public to be missing around one of these.

[+sbell111]

Okay this is not a link to a picture of an irrigation pump

http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/North_Ame...photo443460.htm

 

It is however a standpipe for a deep well irrigation system. I don't think any rice farmer would give you permission to invite the general public to be missing around one of these.

I would imgaine that they would have much less of a problem with a magnet attached to that than the scary equipment that Team Perks posted. I wouldn't even get out of my Jeep to look for a cache on those, even if I knew that the farmer placed the cache. Edited January 17, 2007 by sbell111

[+IGJoe]

A lot bickering and then some hair splitting between what is legal regardless of whether its proper. IMO opinion this is an important topic and if its discussed ad nauseum then it must show a consensus is badly needed regarding how to handle the situation.

 

If it was me I would:

Not hunt it if it was questionable - I'll brave most terrain and cache hazards EXCEPT questionable property ownership. I won't even do caches in a persons yard even if permission is explicitly posted, but thats just me.

Post my concerns in the log as a note or a DNF - good for you for doing that though I may have been more explicit

Email the cache owner - another good move

Advise your local reviewer - if the owner doesn't respond or if they do admit they didnt have permission and dont correct themselves

 

Thats as far as I would go. I dont think I would contact the land owner because I'm not that comfortable with strangers, but again, that just me. The cache near a mailbox would definately set me over the edge considering tampering with the mail and mailboxes is a federal offense and a LOT OF PEOPLE are very paranoid about thier mail.

[runner_one]

... A "Defense" is not an automatic dismissal. A "Defense" is something you present before a judge. You can tell a cop why you where doing something and he may be OK with it, or he may let a judge decide if you you have a valid "Defense".

A Defense does not make what you are doing OK. ...

Such is life. Any of us can be arrested (or sued) for anything. That doesn't make me stop doing anything. It just makes me aware that I need to behave correctly so I can defend my actions if I need to.

 

Thank You That is the point I was trying to make. You need to aware of law in case you are confronted with a cop that dosn't know the law.

[+Syndam]

... A "Defense" is not an automatic dismissal. A "Defense" is something you present before a judge. You can tell a cop why you where doing something and he may be OK with it, or he may let a judge decide if you you have a valid "Defense".

A Defense does not make what you are doing OK. ...

Such is life. Any of us can be arrested (or sued) for anything. That doesn't make me stop doing anything. It just makes me aware that I need to behave correctly so I can defend my actions if I need to.

 

Thank You That is the point I was trying to make. You need to aware of law in case you are confronted with a cop that dosn't know the law.

Runner_One, if you ever make it up to Oregon, I'll buy the beers and we can argue about this over a game a of pool or something.