My First Cache was Looted Already!

[+Team BCBG]

 

Ok I'm newer to this, but 2 things already bug me about my *new* favorite hobbie.

 

1st why do people put JUNK!!! do people really think a piece of string is worth leaving? Ok that another thread (no pun intended)!

 

Now on to my MAIN Gripe.

 

This week we placed our first cache, we were really excited about Geocaching, and we ran out and made a cache we would be proud of .. (GC104D9)

 

I admit we probably spent too much ($50) but thats ok, because we wanted it to last awhile and be a "Nice" cache, but here's where the problem is: Someone came and took the $10 Flint, the $8 sliver necalce, (2) golden coins, and left NOTHING, and convienently didn't log taking said items either.

 

Now there has only been 4 logs since placement, FTF graciously took Nothing because he had "nothing to leave", i checked the cache after his log, and sure enough nothing gone, but now today 4 days later all the good stuff is gone, but no mention of it on the log, oh and nothing left except what had been logged by Second to Find. Someone is just Plain STEALING! And if I find out who it is that ruins our sport I'm gonna snap some fingers! What should I do? How can we Report, and Track this behaivior and narrow down who's doing it in our area?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Curse the thief (under your breath.) But we cannot control the actions of others. The dolphin has a phrase that he utters a lot, when faced with such situations. "Oh, well." It keeps the blood pressure down, and helps prevent ulcers.

[Dinoprophet]

I am with you, it stinks. I was peeved recently when I noticed someone traded something I had left in a cache along with several other nice items, and left one paltry thing in return.

 

I would note, however, that I rarely find anything but dollar store trinkets in caches, and if I saw a necklace, I would probably figure it was a $1 gewgaw as well. It could have been that someone didn't know the value of what they were taking. Maybe I'm deluded, but I like to think that that's the cause of a lot of it.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

HMM, at least your actual cache is still intact.

 

We have a cache in the Bronx that one time was left out in the open opened up with the contents thrown all over the park. A cacher who saw this was kind enough to put it back together and let us know. Then it was stolen outright about 2 weeks later. Now we have it as a log-only micro where you bring your own writing instrument hoping this will have staying power there.

Edited January 9, 2007 by HaLiJuSaPa

[+Confucius' Cat]

Bummer.

 

There is not really much you can do about it.

 

I would caution you not to assume that it was one of the people who signed the log. If I was a thief, I would think that I would not sign the log if I was going to flat out steal from a cache. But then again there are a LOT of stupid thieves.

 

I would suspect perhaps you have been muggled (kids?).

 

Best to just write it off as "tuition" and perhaps hide it a little better in case it was muggles.

[+Renegade Knight]

Nothing like a long hike up a cliff to weed out the riff raff. Plus if they do make the hike and jack your cache contents you can honestly say they worked for it.

 

You can spend a lot more than 50 bucks to catch and prosecute them, or forgive and forget and enjoy the bulk of the folks in geocaching. The alternate involved pulling your hair out and dying young due to all the stress.

 

I forgot to add. You can always vent some and let it out in the forums. Then forgive and forget.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[Clan Riffster]

1st, Welcome to the addiction! 2nd, Thanx for placing a cache!

 

My thoughts;

For now, do nothing. Judging by what you wrote, it sounds like some kids found your cache decided to plunder it. That can happen for many different reasons, but the most common is that the cache isn't hid well enough to keep folks from stumbling across it. Note: This is not a judgment. It's just a statistical analysis. I have no idea how well your's was hidden.

 

Next, pick a completely random, arbitrary number between 50 and 100. Wait until your find count matches that number. Then go back and evaluate your hide. Each cache you find increases your experience in this game, and there is no greater teacher than that. With your newly acquired experience, ask yourself what you could do to keep the cache from being found by non-cachers again. You may have gained some insights that will solve your problem. Things to ask yourself at that point: Should I move the cache to a more secure location? Should I camouflage it better? If you answer both those questions with a resounding "No", then chances are, your cache was great to begin with, and the muggles just stumbled across it by accident. It happens.

 

Good luck!

-Sean-

[Neos2]

How did you get the cache approved with a pocket knife in it? (Not that I think they should not be there--I happen to think they make great swag, but unfortunately, they aren't allowed).

 

It's too bad that the good swag went away so fast. We have that happen also. We usually stock multiple items of lesser value, so those folks who have less expensive items can have plenty of fun trading, too.

 

I agree with the folks who have suggested that caches that are more difficult to get to seem to attract people more willing to trade fairly--usually. I see one of your previous visitors has claimed the necklace as a trade.

[+briansnat]

Assume that what you place in a cache is a gift to the community and leave it at that. There are takers and givers in life. Cache owners are givers by nature and finders are a mix of both.

 

 

You aren't alone though. Here is a typical small sized cache when I put it out:

 

 

Here is what was left in one when I archived it. Not the same cache but you get the idea:

 

 

So my advice is that this is all part of being a cache owner. If you can't deal with it, then just forget about hiding caches and have fun finding them.

[continental drifter]

Hey thats my marble!!

[+BoredKitty]

Here's the kicker. Someone stole my cache in my front yard and it was just a rusty painted tin with a log in it! Some people are just mean. But like the others said, it's part of being a cache owner. I get more bummed that my log is gone than the trinkets in it because I use put the pages of my log in my scrapbook. -BK

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I would suspect perhaps you have been muggled (kids?).

I'm with the Cat on this one. I've been in your shoes (Arrgh! ) and I came to the conclusion that it was muggles. Finally, I just had to let it go and say that it was all there to be given away to complete strangers anyway, and that's exactly what happened, so I wasn't put out too much It just got into the hands of the wrong strangers, that's all.

[+Paul and Shona Royle-Grimes]

I would spend more money on the camo and less on what is in it. I have two sons one is six and the other is 2 years old. We have completed every one of our finds together and my 6 year old is often more inclined to just sign the log and leave the swag. I have maybe traded items 5 times since starting this game. My 2 year old is another story of course but he would want the marble.

 

Bottom line the fun for us is the adventure of the find. A well camoflaged cache in a cool place is what it is all about. Sure we have seen neat stuff, but we often leave it be.

 

When a cache is well done and has survived a while folks are more likely to return to place coins or bugs inside (an added benifit) I love discovering a bug in one of my caches close to home!

 

I have discovered also that in high saturation areas that an ammo can or even a small cache may be out of the question. Consider a nano or a micro and match the paint, embed it in an overturned rock, or make it look like a bolt. If you are an urban cacher this is part of your fun! There is a cache we visited on the top of a parking garage made to look like a battery pack for an emergency light! Genius... Simply genius.... wish I'd thought of it first.

 

I guarantee most veteran cachers will dig this type of cache more than the fanciest swag.

 

If you are still excited about swag - one more idea. Look for door busters, surplus supplies, 80% off sales and the like and start a cache swag bag. This way you can put cool stuff in a cache without spending a mint.

One cache we placed we were able to fill with new flashights (large ones with batteries), a brand new digital kitchen timer, stuffed animals, and some polished agate stones all for under ten bucks. People loved the cache and expressed suprise at the quality of the swag.

 

If you would like I could make you one of my moonstone style caches and send it to you for hiding - Maybe it would inpire you to invent your own custom containers?

 

good luck, and email if you want me to make you a "moonstone"

 

paul

[CerealBoxQueen]

I agree about people leaving just junk.

 

I myself only leave a sticker if i've left something else with it and it's very rare, but I see pieces of paper, candy bars, tiny erasers in large caches, pennies (that the cache owner didn't ask them to leave) and quarters...I had someone trade a quarter for a very nice bracelet I got for a good deal that would have cost a pretty penny in a store. (It didn't bother me too much as it went to a good home:)

 

I think if you can't leave something you yourself would take, you shouldn't take anything.

 

I'm very sorry your cache got muggled, respect is something more people need to learn.

[Luckless]

Fear of having my caches muggled is one reason I don't spend a lot on them. I have some more expensive items I can stick in one at a time when I go to do maintenance. Did have my first cache muggled a month ago. They took most of the stuff and left the container and some ziplock bags strewn all over the area. Probably kids. Hated to lose that cool hiding place. It was the reason I offered to adopt it, but I can't put it back there now that muggles know about it. I have to locate it somewhere else.

You have to figure people will take what they will.

[+Woodlit]

Reading your cache page and the logs, it sounds like you placed a nice cache. And filling it with some nice swag, makes it an even better cache.

But I have to agree with HarryDolphin. The only thing you can do, is start to sing that song they sing in that movie anger management. "I feel pretty, oh so pretty!" There really isn't anything you can do about it.

Even though the area you picked sounds like a nice location, maybe the "kids" did find it and snatch the good stuff. Just like Renegade Knight said, maybe a longer walk would help prevent that from happening again.

 

But really the only way to prevent that, is to not place anymore caches. And that is a really bad option.

[+forcesofnature]

Unfortunately you have to consider ANYTHING you place in a cache as a 'gift' to the caching community (or muggles if they happen upon it). I generally don't trade things as I'm more interested in the hunt, so TNLN is often on my logs. I do however carry a few small things with me to trade should I (or my young son) wish to do so, most of which are of little monetary value. Even with these trinkets it is usally possible to trade even as most things in the caches are of similar low value. I think this is the case for many people so if you place expensive items in a cache as swag they will probably end up being traded down... Just taking them and not replacing with anything is of course wrong.

 

It would be nice if everyone traded equal or traded up, but in reality that isn't likely.

 

Obviously when you hide a cache it is nice to put something worthwhile in it and I try to do so, but over time the value of the swag items will probably drop.. I left a digital camera in a cache I hid the other day, and took a plastic yoyo out of a cache and left a £40 watch in its place at the weekend... The camera and watch were of no use to me, so they won't be missed, but someone should get a nice surprise when they find them.

 

Al.

[+GG528]

Assume that what you place in a cache is a gift to the community and leave it at that. There are takers and givers in life. Cache owners are givers by nature and finders are a mix of both.

 

 

You aren't alone though. Here is a typical small sized cache when I put it out:

 

 

Here is what was left in one when I archived it. Not the same cache but you get the idea:

 

 

So my advice is that this is all part of being a cache owner. If you can't deal with it, then just forget about hiding caches and have fun finding them.

 

Is there a thread that shows cache content ideas? I don't want to hijack this one. I have been wondering what a good ammo can-sized cache should contain?

Edited January 9, 2007 by GG528

[Dinoprophet]

 

Is there a thread that shows cache content ideas? I don't want to hijack this one. I have been wondering what a good ammo can-sized cache should contain?

 

Orlando Bloom© Brand Head Nets are always popular.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+GG528]

 

Is there a thread that shows cache content ideas? I don't want to hijack this one. I have been wondering what a good ammo can-sized cache should contain?

 

Orlando Bloom© Brand Head Nets are always popular.

 

Ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! Too funny. It does look like him!

[+Team Rat Pack (led by Miss Bi)]

We personally NEVER leave anything worth less than a dollar when we trade and try always to trade at least even. We have a nice assortment of NEW things in our pack and do not trade if we don't have our pack with us.

Can someone tell me when the custom of logging what one takes and leaves changed? When we started caching in 2002 one always was expected to log what one traded. I placed a cache in the fall stocked with all new nice things, including some handmade sterling silver (new in box with sterling marked on the box) jewelry and ID lanyards that sell for $25 and $10 respectively at local craft fairs. (I try to stock my caches with at least half the stuff to appeal to women as I find that most stuff in caches tends toward the guy type.) We watched the logs and with the exception of one cacher saying they left a quarter (!!!) for one of the things in the cache, all others said TNLN. We went out to drop a travel bug and were shocked to find only broken, dirty toys and trash. Now, I did not expect anyone to trade completely even for fresh water pearl earrings, but one would think that they would have traded at least a new undamaged item for them. I have to go out and restock the thing because I don't want our caches to have only junk in them. I am a little stunned as to how much that element in caching has changed. We were out of caching for several years and when we decided to come back this summer we immediately went out and stocked up on trade stuff. Now, 60 or so caches later, we have traded only one or two times as 99% of what we find is used, dirty and junk. Kind of a sad change. I have to add that we have also changed our residence to an entirely different part of the country so maybe that has something to do with it as well.

[+Team BCBG]

Well, I'm 99.9% sure is WASN"T MUGGLES. as the Cache is on private property (With permission) and it is very well hidden that no public person would ever find it unless they read the Clues, which leads me to believe the Theif is Certainly a memebr of the Geocaching society. Which makes the offense all the more dispicable, also I can tell from the paper and online logs, that all of the items were taken by one person, because the rest of the items were there on the second to find. I'm awaiting respose to an email i sent to 3rd to find as to what was left in the box when he got there... I guess the best advice has been just say Oh-well... but it's sad that a few people can take ALOT of the fun out of this. We were hoping to start a movement of "Nicer Cahes" by 1) making a nicer one, and 2) leaving nice stuff and taking nothing from others. Mostly because we are finding SO MUCH Trash in most of the cahes. If we all start leaving nicer stuff or TNLN if you have nothing, it will be funner. I have to agree the satisfaction is in finding it, yes.. But it certainly is nice to find more than just dirty items and candy wrappers inside, (Even if you take nothing, it's nice to bask in the excitment of finding a beautiful, well hidden cache)

 

So from now on we are on a mission to make cahes Nicer (albiet futile I'm sure) Perhaps we will "Trash Out" the caches. I also think we are going to start making the "prize" be the cleverness of the camo or "disguise" I personally found much fullfillment in finding cleverly camoed hiding "containers"

Edited January 9, 2007 by Team BCBG

[+Team BCBG]

UPDATE:

 

Now all of a sudden people are changing thier logs...

First logged nothing taken, now saying they did take some items, but left $5 cash...

So I went back out since yesterday, and No $5.... Hmm. So now someone took the golden dollars and the flint, and then came back later and took the $5 ?? So now I have multiple or serial thieves?? something isn't adding up. Why can't people just be honest and follow the dadgum rules! If you take something Leave something. and Log iT

Edited January 9, 2007 by Team BCBG

[luckykoi]

 

Ok I'm newer to this, but 2 things already bug me about my *new* favorite hobbie.

 

1st why do people put JUNK!!! do people really think a piece of string is worth leaving? Ok that another thread (no pun intended)!

 

Now on to my MAIN Gripe.

 

This week we placed our first cache, we were really excited about Geocaching, and we ran out and made a cache we would be proud of .. (GC104D9)

 

I admit we probably spent too much ($50) but thats ok, because we wanted it to last awhile and be a "Nice" cache, but here's where the problem is: Someone came and took the $10 Flint, the $8 sliver necalce, (2) golden coins, and left NOTHING, and convienently didn't log taking said items either.

 

Now there has only been 4 logs since placement, FTF graciously took Nothing because he had "nothing to leave", i checked the cache after his log, and sure enough nothing gone, but now today 4 days later all the good stuff is gone, but no mention of it on the log, oh and nothing left except what had been logged by Second to Find. Someone is just Plain STEALING! And if I find out who it is that ruins our sport I'm gonna snap some fingers! What should I do? How can we Report, and Track this behaivior and narrow down who's doing it in our area?

 

Don't put expensive stuff in you caches if you don't want people to walk off with it. Some people just are not going to trade fair. I fill my new cache with children's toys, it's my kids that enjoy trading swag. I just enjoy finding the cache and don't care much about swag.

[+AStargirl]

You can have a nice cache with inexpensive items. I recently started a garden-themed cache with just a pot, some seeds and bulbs in it. The seeds cost only about $1 a pack and the rest wasn't over $3 per item.

I think you would be better off putting in less expensive items for now. Not that I blame you for being annoyed.

[+gnbrotz]

Another option is to make it a "log only" cache. There's no reason you can't hide a normal sized cache in a wooded area and just leave it empty. No swag doesn't have to be just for micros.

 

I recently converted a new hide of mine after several $5-$7 items mysteriously disappeared, even though nobody was trading. I'm not surprised at the degradation that occurred, just that speed at which it happened. It took less than 30 days for most of the stuff to be gone with NOTHING, not even junk, in its place. It was a nice thought, but I can't afford to continuously supply $5+ items the the geocaching community at large.

Edited January 9, 2007 by gnbrotz

[+jellis]

Most of my caches I leave up to other cachers to put things in. But I have one that I treat as a geocoin or signature item trade only cache. I specified what I want them to do, put it in an out of the way spot away from other caches and made it a Premium member cache only. It doesn't prevent thievery, but you narrowed down the type of cachers a bit.

Edited January 9, 2007 by jellis50

[+GG528]

 

Don't put expensive stuff in you caches if you don't want people to walk off with it. Some people just are not going to trade fair. I fill my new cache with children's toys, it's my kids that enjoy trading swag. I just enjoy finding the cache and don't care much about swag.

 

I'm the same on this comment. I like the hunt. My kids like the swag. And thankfully, they are not terribly picky (yet). However, being a newbie, the above posts so far are the best reference of what would be considered good cache content. I'm starting a new ammo can cache and am looking for ideas of what is appropriate and appreciated. Looks like anything goes as long as it's useful or of some value and not trashy beat up used McDonald's toys (which is primarily what I've found or worse).

[+GG528]

Most of my caches I leave up to other cachers to put things in. But I have one that I treat as a geocoin or signature item trade only cache. I specified what I want them to do put in a out of the way spot away from other caches and made it a Premium member cache only. It doesn't prevent thievery, but you narrowed down the type of cachers a bit.

 

I like your idea of a Geocoin/Travel Bug-only cache. Interesting.

[+jellis]

Most of my caches I leave up to other cachers to put things in. But I have one that I treat as a geocoin or signature item trade only cache. I specified what I want them to do put in a out of the way spot away from other caches and made it a Premium member cache only. It doesn't prevent thievery, but you narrowed down the type of cachers a bit.

 

I like your idea of a Geocoin/Travel Bug-only cache. Interesting.

 

Got the idea from a cache site in Australia. You don't want to piss them off

[+beezerb]

Our first cache (Above Below GCWV7F) was taken and the rocks around it were busted up like someone had taking a sledge hammer to them. It was located above Chusman's Blowing Cave so we just blamed it on cave trolls then we googled the cave name and found this... http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/predict.../redbookae.html

 

We placed the replacement cache farther from the cave entrance where it would be harder for subterranean dwelling critters to get to. We can't help wondering if the one some guys put inside the cave (GCX5MQ - Blowing Cave Bonus Cache) has been muggled by the inhabitancies.

 

Are you sure that's your marble?

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Most of my caches I leave up to other cachers to put things in. But I have one that I treat as a geocoin or signature item trade only cache. I specified what I want them to do put in a out of the way spot away from other caches and made it a Premium member cache only. It doesn't prevent thievery, but you narrowed down the type of cachers a bit.

 

I like your idea of a Geocoin/Travel Bug-only cache. Interesting.

 

I had one - it had about 40 finds and then the coins were stolen. Then, it was stolen.

 

The best answer I can give to the original post is:

 

1) Hide very carefully

2) "space"-out the placement of nice items into the cache. Maybe plave a few items on each maintenance visit

3) Place a card that says "TRADE FAIR: Trade even or Trade up - please do not leave junk" in the cache. This will at least act as a small reminder for them.

 

AS a community, the only way to improve caches is to improve what "we" place in them. Others will always look out for themselves and trade junk for something nice ... but we must not get too discouraged. (it really isn't about the trading, but it IS about respect - trading junk for something nice is not very respectful.

[+mikeslomka]

I'm VERY new to this, but I wouldn't dream of taking something and not replacing it with something of equal or lesser value. That's just the way I am. I can say, however, that thievery isn't just for muggles.

 

We all like to think that members of our own groups are above that type of thing, but there are greedy and thoughtless people everywhere.

 

A coworker and I are planning to go out and hit a couple of caches tomorrow on our lunch break. We both work for a police department, and thought that it would be kind of neat to take nothing, but leave some plastic "Junior Police" badges. We would limit the badges to caches only found in our city. We thought that it would be a cool little way to reach out to the community.

[+Team Rat Pack (led by Miss Bi)]

I'm VERY new to this, but I wouldn't dream of taking something and not replacing it with something of equal or lesser value. That's just the way I am. I can say, however, that thievery isn't just for muggles.

 

Ummmm the IDEA is to replace with something of equal or GREATER value....not lesser.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Another option is to make it a "log only" cache. There's no reason you can't hide a normal sized cache in a wooded area and just leave it empty. No swag doesn't have to be just for micros.

 

I recently converted a new hide of mine after several $5-$7 items mysteriously disappeared, even though nobody was trading. I'm not surprised at the degradation that occurred, just that speed at which it happened. It took less than 30 days for most of the stuff to be gone with NOTHING, not even junk, in its place. It was a nice thought, but I can't afford to continuously supply $5+ items the the geocaching community at large.

 

I put out a ne geocoin cache, Graduation Day, with 15 unactivated coins in it. In 20 days they were all gone. I put in 10 more, within a week they were all gone.

 

Instead of archiving it I left it out with just the log in it.

 

Folks still hunt it and leave nice notes.

 

Ed

[+tollerdudes]

I often don't even bother looking at the swag. I think that the true fun of Geocaching is where it is hidden, not what is in it. Just my two cents worth.

Edited January 10, 2007 by tollerdudes

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I try to put nice stuff in the cache to start with, hoping that people will trade down. I want them to leave with better stuff than they came with. That's just me.

[+mikeslomka]

I'm VERY new to this, but I wouldn't dream of taking something and not replacing it with something of equal or lesser value. That's just the way I am. I can say, however, that thievery isn't just for muggles.

 

Ummmm the IDEA is to replace with something of equal or GREATER value....not lesser.

 

Oops, I guess my fingers got ahead of my brain. That happpens more and more these days. I did MEAN equal or greater value.

[ImpalaBob]

At least when you have a "Members Only" cache you can look at the audit log and see who has been looking at your cache. Never list the cache contents and do not let anyone log info about the contents .... that way it is always a suprise to the finder.

 

 

Image courtesy of JMBella

 

ImpalaBob

[+wb5ury]

Great advice. I'm just starting to put together my first cache and will take it to heart..

[+runningout]

Our family is still kinda new to the sport...and the young people love the stuff...they are 8, 6 and 4...they have "McToys" galore, and that is what they bring with them to trade usually (if R/O mom lets them as she has been reading along and sees that others HATE the mctoys...who knew?) The team has just recently picked up their first few TBs...one being a green jeep that R/O Mom handed to another cacher that asked specifically about it, before she knew she needed certain numbers to log the find. I, the Mom, had seen baggies with tagged items before, but had no idea what they were and told the kids to leave them be. Once the youngest member traded some McToy for a ladybug Pez...and when Mom tried trading the pez thing for something else later in the day all heck broke loose...who knew one child would grow so attached so quickly. We, being new and all with no connections as of yet to other more experience cachers are just figuring this out as we go...so while you are new to placing caches, others of us are new to finding them and may not have anything that you would think of as worthwhile...yet. Sorry that you feel something was stolen from your cache...but maybe it was something that really actually blessed the receiver somehow....like a crazy lady bug pez dispenser brought much joy to a little 4 year old girl...and still does...I do believe she has hidden it from me and not released the lat' and long' as of yet. I for one, am hoping that the husband gets a really romantic notion that tradable swag (read...some sort of coin or personalized trading item) would be an awesome valentines thing instead of, or if he is generous...in addition to, a box of chocolates for his caching addicted wife and the rest of the team!

 

My question, would it be completely wrong to remove nasty moldy toys from caches without trading? the middle child is the CITO boy of the team and he would be thrilled to have something to cart out! My husband's favorite cache is one that has thousands of McToys hung from the trees and such...some sort of fairy theme I think...I got it as did the kids...but he thought it was horrible.

[Clan Riffster]

Just a McClarification: McToys are fine as swag as long as they are new, and still in their baggies. Used toys are McCrappy.

[+runningout]

McThankyou! Now I can direct them to take all the still packaged doubles that are piling up around here! I have noticed that putting any stuffed item in is just asking for it to turn gross! I also suggested to the CITO boy that he TRADE his matchbox cars since he is always wanting to take those from the caches...and goodness knows he has more than his fair share already! (Some of those being the McToy cars of a year or so ago!)

 

These forums are great for learning how to responsibly cache and even though some of us are not great traders yet, we are willing to be trained!

[+Mandlair]

Mc@ is copyrighted so you see,alot of infringement here. lol Mike

[+nekom]

Yeah unfortunately there's not much you can do but curse the rotten sob that did it, whoever he may be. All you can do it play it right yourself, I follow the motto (and I don't know who coined this phrase, but it weren't me) trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. But in any cross section of people you'll have some bad apples. It's a shame, but them's the breaks.