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iam2smart

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In the case that you presented "the starving student," I can accept that as a reason not to be Premium member. For someone who caches all the time, but refuses to "pony up" $30.00, I consider them a bit "parasitic."
As has been mentioned 1000 times in these forums, there is more than one way to support geocaching. I refuse to call anyone 'parasitic' simply because they don't show their support in the same manner that I do.

I don't buy the hardship cases that some have brought up here. Yes there are people who are down on their luck, have low paying jobs and have trouble making ends meet. But seriously, if you can't come up with $3, then you need to slow down with your geocaching and put more effort into getting your life back on track. ...

Their lives may be 'on track', but their current budget may still not allow that money to be spent in that manner. It's a simple matter of priorities.
... I find it hard to believe 3 bucks for a month of caching (many hours) isn't a good deal by anyone's standards. 2 hours at the movies for 2 people is more expensive than 6 months of paid caching... how can anyone not find that to be justified?
Perhaps those people who can't afford a night out at the movies?
When people do work they get paid money, thats how the world operates. I understand there are people that work full time to make the site work, so they should get paid somehow. If you can't afford three dollars, then you should return your GPS from whoever you stole it from. :D
Wow. Could you be ruder?

Allow me to interject a comment or two here. I do not think that 4Wheelin_Fool was being rude, but he was certainly being blunt and clear, and also exercisnig a bit of humor. Although he lives a couple of hundred miles from where we live, I have met him several times and have crawled in caves and done rock climbing work with him. My impression is that he is rather blunt when nedeed, both in person and on the forums, but I have never felt in the slightest, in either my live interactions with him nor in what I have seen of his posts on the forums, that he has ever been rude. Rather, what it seems like he was doing in the post in question was addressing the rather obvious sense of "gimme" and entitlement shown by the OP. If anything or anyone did cross over the line of being rude, it was perhaps the first post from the OP.

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Thanks for the nice words Vinny, but I was wrong, not in what I meant, but how it was communicated. I have to remember that this is a forum and a very poor avenue for clear communication. Things can be percieved in many different ways, and most readers will not know where you are coming from and someone could read into any statement incorrectly.

 

People must expect to pay for things, it is how much that is important. The MO caches are very few, and it is very inexpensive to be one anyway. I just dont understand how someone could pay escalating high prices for automobiles and gasoline, (and own a GPS) but complain about a $3 fee which is entirely optional.

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If someone puts out really good caches or gives really good, friendly advice in teh forums or works with land managers to promote caching is not GC.com better for it, even if the person doesnt' buy a membership?

 

Probably a loaded question but since I've got the urge to post a "How to raise three bucks a month" thread coming on, I'll take the bait.

 

Yes, gc.com and geocaching in general, can benefit from non-paying members, but not from all of them.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Rude or not, I gotta agree with the 4 wheelin puppy.

$30/yr works out to 8 cents a day. I'm sorry, if you are SOOOOO poor you really can't spare 8 cents a day then you have no business spending money on a gps, computer, Internet access, batteries and gasoline. You also shouldn't be wasting time trolling the forums, looking up caches online and going out looking for them. You should be looking for a job/better job/2nd job.

If you REALLY are so poor you can't spare 8 cents a day yet you still geocache, your priorities are way screwed up.

 

Edit to add:

If you just don't want to pay for the membership for whatever reason and admit it; I can respect that. Just don't trot out the too poor to afford it BS.

Edited by Mopar
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...your priorities are way screwed up.

 

Mo, I agree with all but the last line. I used to think people who spent all their time caching must not have any life. It occured to me on a 7-hour hike today that people who spend their time working instead of being outdoors are the ones missing out on life.

 

That said, of course you are right that $30 a year for anyone who owns a GPS and a computer is really not asking a lot.

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If someone puts out really good caches or gives really good, friendly advice in teh forums or works with land managers to promote caching is not GC.com better for it, even if the person doesnt' buy a membership?

 

Let me guess, this is the same person that was loaned the GPS, and recharges his batteries. He either calls the land managers (requiring a phone which costs money), he might email them (requiring a computer, unless he walks to the library to use the free internet).

 

So how do these poor destitute cachers afford containers for geocaches?

 

If this person has AMPLE TIME to be helpful on the GC forums, but he can't afford to support this site, maybe he/she should "put the mouse down" and do some work to earn money.

 

I know what it's like to have a tight budget, I routinely work 32 to 40 extra hours per month, just so my wife can stay home full time with my kids. I also have to maintain 81 active caches, on very little "spare time."

 

I manage to be helpful on the forums, hide nice caches, and promote the sport, all while busting my backside working more then full time.

Edited by Kit Fox
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That's lovely, but it's based on your priorities. BTW, at the end of the day, whether someone becaomes a PM or not is solely a personal decision. The site is set up to allow for this decision.

 

At the end of the day, each one of us decides whether it is a good investment and acts accordingly.

 

PM may only be a bit over eight cents a day, but you are only in charge of your eight cents. Leave your nose out of every one else's pockets.

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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you.

AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?
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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?

 

Cachers who dislike Premium Members hiding PMOCs. :D

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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?

 

When I address a post at a particular person I either quote them directly or call them by name sbell111, when I make a general statement about my personal feelings on a subject I don't. It's like sending a group of kids to the playground and telling them to play nice, it doesn't mean any of them aren't playing nice, it's just a reminder "just in case".

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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?
When I address a post at a particular person I either quote them directly or call them by name sbell111, when I make a general statement about my personal feelings on a subject I don't. It's like sending a group of kids to the playground and telling them to play nice, it doesn't mean any of them aren't playing nice, it's just a reminder "just in case".
Well, that's good to know. However, I'm not sure that there's an answer to my question hidden in your response.
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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?
When I address a post at a particular person I either quote them directly or call them by name sbell111, when I make a general statement about my personal feelings on a subject I don't. It's like sending a group of kids to the playground and telling them to play nice, it doesn't mean any of them aren't playing nice, it's just a reminder "just in case".
Well, that's good to know. However, I'm not sure that there's an answer to my question hidden in your response.

 

Sorry, but I think there is.

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There are lots of benifits for PM's, but none of them really mattered to me. I became a PM at the end of my first week because I believe the site is worth supporting, and I believe in paying my own way.

The sire does not REQUIRE any payment, so I'll not think any less of anyone who plays without paying, but please don't try to demonize those who do pay, we are the hands that feed you. AS for the caches, I think there may be two within 30 miles of me,I certainly wouldn't use that as a reason to pay or not.

Who demonizes PMs?
When I address a post at a particular person I either quote them directly or call them by name sbell111, when I make a general statement about my personal feelings on a subject I don't. It's like sending a group of kids to the playground and telling them to play nice, it doesn't mean any of them aren't playing nice, it's just a reminder "just in case".
Well, that's good to know. However, I'm not sure that there's an answer to my question hidden in your response.

 

Sorry, but I think there is.

OK, then. If I read your reply correctly, you don't feel that anyone demonized ('represent as evil or diabolic') PMs, but you felt that it would be useful to the thread to suggest that someone had.
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I think this topic has been beaten to death. :D So, in the spirt of flogging a dead horse, let me say...

 

Geocaching, as we know it, would be dead without geocaching.com

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

People are constantly complaining when the site is down or slow or whatever.

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

This site is not a non-profit organization. It exists to earn a profit.

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

Some of this money must come from members.

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

This site offers a TREMENDOUS amount of benefit to members at no charge.

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

The free side is free. Be happy with what is offered for free. Don't complain about what is not offered.

 

It takes money to run this site.

 

To get money from members, additional benefits must be offered to premium members.

 

Geocaching is free. This site is not free. It takes money to run this site.

 

It is soley up to Geocaching.com to determine what to offer premium members, and what to give away for free. I personally don't know how they can stay in business giving away SO MUCH for free.

 

Do I believe that those using geocaching.com should be paying premium members? NO. That is soley up to them. You can enjoy this sport for many years and never become a premium member. That's fine. But nobody should complain about what paying members get, or about what free members do not get.

 

If anyone disagrees with this, then I suggest you complain to your cable company that you should get cable internet for free, HBO for free, and pay-per-view for free. Heck, you should get cable for free. Otherwise, we are being unfair to those who use antennas for TV reception.

 

OK. I'm sitting in my bathtub full of ice wearing a flame resistant suit.

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Not sure demonize is the best word to describe it but it's easy to see what Cpt.Blackbeard is saying. A premium member has the right to hide a PMOC and it's not right for someone to come criticizing the cache or telling them just how wrong it was for them to have hidden it.

 

Members only caches are an extra benefit for those who want to pay for them, just like PQs and such. You want the benefit, you pay the $3. There shouldn't be any angst here... :D

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Not sure demonize is the best word to describe it but it's easy to see what Cpt.Blackbeard is saying. A premium member has the right to hide a PMOC and it's not right for someone to come criticizing the cache or telling them just how wrong it was for them to have hidden it.

 

Members only caches are an extra benefit for those who want to pay for them, just like PQs and such. You want the benefit, you pay the $3. There shouldn't be any angst here... :D

 

Bingo! That's what I was saying, thanks!

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I really don't appreciate the member's only caches. Geocaching.com was designed as a free website, and I don't like having to pay for the multiplying number of "Member's Only" caches. I think they should make them available to everyone, or they shouldn't be there at all. Even though I'm relatively new, I think I deserve to see all of the caches. What do you guys think?

 

IMHO

1. The website and servers need to be paid for. Although the use of GPS is free, extending the use of the site to us newer cachers is not a given. Memberships pay for the site and the servers.

2. I have seen a couple caches that took quite a bit of time, effort, and material to construct and place. By making a "members only" cache, a cache hider can be increasing the longevity and the swag level of their hide, by protecting it from the more "casual" who are not as serious about their caching career. The took the time and spent the money, why shouldn't they have this right?

 

Coming soon, a membership for me, as soon as I get the cable to download directly into my GPSr, and get over my fear of new programs to get the job done.

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I don't disagree with MOC, I think if you've worked hard on a cache thats hard to find, certainly making it MOC is your choice, however don't forget about us little people out there.

 

As someone said earlier many of us are on budget's, go to school, or live off money the state/social security gives us.

150 bucks (which is what I payed for my GPS) is a lot...and some of us probably got or gave one as a gift.

 

Sure have your MOC's, but don't forget about placing "everyone" caches for the rest of us, who merely love the game.

I don't think anyone deserves to see MOC's for free just I disagree with the people who demand everyone pay.

 

If everyone had to pay...I doubt very much the sport would have grown as big as it has...I mean who pays 30 bucks for something your arent addicted to yet :D

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Not sure demonize is the best word to describe it but it's easy to see what Cpt.Blackbeard is saying. A premium member has the right to hide a PMOC and it's not right for someone to come criticizing the cache or telling them just how wrong it was for them to have hidden it.

 

Members only caches are an extra benefit for those who want to pay for them, just like PQs and such. You want the benefit, you pay the $3. There shouldn't be any angst here... :D

 

Bingo! That's what I was saying, thanks!

Exactly! And, instead of whining, those who are tempted to complain may instead wish to thank the premium membets who choose to support the site financially.

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Just looked at the caches in the area surrounding one of the OP's cache placements. I will say this: There is an unusually large number of MOCs there. One cacher in particular, "Kashiree Q" has placed 80+ caches of which I'd estimate 70 are MOCs.

 

If the OP could just strike a deal with "Kashiree Q" to open up those caches the issue would be moot.

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GC.com could always go the way of National Public Radio.

 

Pleeese give us money. Please, oh, please! If you email and contribute within the next half hour we'll send you the coordinates to Joe Cacher's greatest hides. Just ten more contributers to go before the end of the hour; just ten more. (Next hour it's just ten more, again) We only block access to the web site for two weeks out of the year to spam you like crazy, blah, blah, the government is cutting our taxpayer-robbed funding...we need upgrades...to our paychecks....

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...Geocaching.com was designed as a free website, and I don't like having to pay for the multiplying number of "Member's Only" caches. I think they should make them available to everyone, or they shouldn't be there at all...

<my enboldening>

Aren't those both the same thing? </my enboldening> :anicute:

 

I really wouldn't mind paying for the site, if I was old enough to do so. I just don't like the idea of MOC's. I am not old enough yet to buy a premium membership, and my parents don't want to buy one for me even though I have the money to pay them back for it. I would like to see some of the MOC's, because there are a few near my house. But I don't have the option to view them, and I really don't think that's entirely fair.

 

This may have already been brought up, but I didn't read all the posts in this topic. :huh:

What a great point. It seems quite obscure so I will expound upon it.

 

Perhaps the alternative to the person who placed the MOC would be to simply not do so. In which case the cache is not available to anyone. Therefore everyone is equally impoverished- cache wise. Which, by the by, is the ultimate outcome of the "wealth redistribution" schemes of the entitlement generation. "Rob from the rich, give to the poor till there are no rich no more." (song lyric)

 

Another way i read this is: "If you can't find it, what difference does it make to you if it is there or not?" Is not the argument that you are denied access (for whatever reason) an argument that somehow you should function in omnipotence or omniceince?

 

Hey, let's face it we all have things we cannot do and places we cannot go. That is not WRONG, that is just LIFE.

 

In this particular case, access is just a $3 check away. Hmmmm...*stroking chin* what would you pay for carte-blanche access to say... Area 51?

 

Rude or not, I gotta agree with the 4 wheelin puppy.

$30/yr works out to 8 cents a day. I'm sorry, if you are SOOOOO poor you really can't spare 8 cents a day then you have no business spending money on a gps, computer, Internet access, batteries and gasoline. You also shouldn't be wasting time trolling the forums, looking up caches online and going out looking for them. You should be looking for a job/better job/2nd job.

If you REALLY are so poor you can't spare 8 cents a day yet you still geocache, your priorities are way screwed up.

 

Edit to add:

If you just don't want to pay for the membership for whatever reason and admit it; I can respect that. Just don't trot out the too poor to afford it BS.

Right on Mopar.

I get so tired of hearing about "raising the minimum wage" and "giving the poor a hand up" and all the political baloney out there that purports to "help" those in need whilst actually distracting them from the REAL solution to their problem.

 

I have BEEN there. I have in the past mismanaged my funds so badly that I would have stood right here and railed with those who think $3/ month is just something that some people can't afford. I have used that EXCUSE myself many times to justify not joining or contributing to organizations I believe in.

 

I have a degree in "stupid tax" from the School of Hard Knox. And I have learned that money management is much more a matter of attitude than it is of mathematics. If there is something you can't afford, you have basically two choices- forget about it, or afford it by increasing income or better management of what you already have. (or you could borrow the money and screw up your future to play today- not recommended, but totally normal in U.S.)

 

Money is earned by work and stretched by management. If you need money for a particular thing, you can either work harder, smarter, or manage differently. Pretty simple stuff really, except for the DISCIPLINE to do what it takes. That is where the rubber meets the road. That is what separates the "haves" from the whining "entitlement mentality" have-nots.

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Most societies are pyramidal designed; work hard and you can raise yourself up.

 

The reality is that some people move up without any work, while others bust their butt and never get anywhere.

 

Paying three dollars is hardly a obstacle for anyone who owns a GPS, especially when most of the caches are not MO. The real question is: why do some people feel that it is wrong? They go out and find a bunch of caches and feel like they are part of a group. Then they stumble upon a "members only" cache and suddenly feel left out.

Maybe it is the label "Members only" which implies exclusiveness, but is hardly. If they changed the label from "Members Only" to "Supporting GC.com" or "Extra mile" maybe opinions would change.

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I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I have been a PM ever since the option was offered. I certainly could have dropped it temporarily after my accident since I was neither caching or contributing to the forums, but I didn't because I still wanted to support the site.

 

However, that doesn't mean that I'm going to rail and demand that everyone becomes a PM. It remains a personal choice. This is the way TPTB set it up and I feel that it is completely appropriate. I honestly believe that becoming a PM is just one way of many that a person can support the hobby and GC.com.

 

That being said, let's come back to a point that Mule Ears made that may have been lost to the drama:

Just looked at the caches in the area surrounding one of the OP's cache placements. I will say this: There is an unusually large number of MOCs there. One cacher in particular, "Kashiree Q" has placed 80+ caches of which I'd estimate 70 are MOCs. ...
While I believe that there is nothing wrong with MOCs, perhaps cachers need to be mindful to ensure that their areas do not get over saturated with MOCs. This could tend to make the game a closed club in some areas and strangle off the source of new players.
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Maybe it is the label "Members only" which implies exclusiveness, but is hardly. If they changed the label from "Members Only" to "Supporting GC.com" or "Extra mile" maybe opinions would change.

Quite possibly the case.

 

We seem to have a lot of "knit pickiness" about terminology that causes people unnecessary anguish.

 

I would suggest possibly calling them "Premium Caches".

 

The point being that we are all "members" and it does seem a little illogical that some members don't get to see members only caches.

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Maybe it is the label "Members only" which implies exclusiveness, but is hardly. If they changed the label from "Members Only" to "Supporting GC.com" or "Extra mile" maybe opinions would change.

Quite possibly the case.

 

We seem to have a lot of "knit pickiness" about terminology that causes people unnecessary anguish.

 

I would suggest possibly calling them "Premium Caches".

 

The point being that we are all "members" and it does seem a little illogical that some members don't get to see members only caches.

Calling the 'premium caches' would suggest that they're better. In most cases, they are not.
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Maybe it is the label "Members only" which implies exclusiveness, but is hardly. If they changed the label from "Members Only" to "Supporting GC.com" or "Extra mile" maybe opinions would change.

Quite possibly the case.

 

We seem to have a lot of "knit pickiness" about terminology that causes people unnecessary anguish.

 

I would suggest possibly calling them "Premium Caches".

 

The point being that we are all "members" and it does seem a little illogical that some members don't get to see members only caches.

Calling the 'premium caches' would suggest that they're better. In most cases, they are not.

 

I was thinking that too, that it makes them sound like they are better when in most cases, they're not. I've always used the term PMOC (premium member only cache) which to me, spells out exactly what it is. The name may still seem to imply that these caches are for the elite but in all actuality, they aren't. There is no eliteness (not sure that is a word) here since anyone can become a premium member, even if it's for only a month.

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There are basically 3 reasons people give to justify hiding MOCs (Members Only Caches), and what follows is just my opinion of those reasons:

 

Reason #1: To give back something extra to only those that support the website by “paying the frog”. Regrettably, this completely ignores the support/contributions (in the form of caches placed) that thousands of “regular” cachers have made to the sport, without which the website would have no reason to exist. IMO, the only legitimate use of this reason would be MOC caches that are subsequently opened up to regular cachers after a short time period, giving PMs first crack at them but not permanently locking out the rest of the geocaching community. Unfortunately, MOCs in my area stay MOCs and are never converted to regular caches.

 

Reason #2: Cache Protection:

#2a: To prevent caches from being muggled. This is a complete farce, since by definition, muggles are non-geocachers who inadvertently come across caches. Placing a MO cache has absolutely no effect on whether the cache will be found by muggles. Additionally, there are many active geocachers who were actually introduced to the sport by first being a muggle. Locking up the information about a cache could actually deter the possibility of turning some muggles into great, contributing, and possibly even "paying" geocachers.

#2b: To prevent “casual”, “new”, or other “non-serious” cachers from causing the deterioration of caches. Being a “newbie” or casual cacher does not necessarily translate into “un-caring”. A jerk is a jerk, and a good person is a good person, regardless of whether they are hard-core, new, long-time, or just occasional cachers. It’s called character, and no one group has a lock on it, PMs or otherwise. Some of the best caches I have found were placed by relative newbies, and some of the most “ho-hum, whatever” caches were placed by long-time cachers, including PMs.

#2c: To protect caches from a local “cache-maggot”. This is the only legitimate “cache protection” reason, but even then should only be used on a temporary basis, as cache-maggots tend to lose interest after a while. Additionally, the current requirement that users be “logged-in” before being able to view cache pages/coordinates has probably reduced the number of maggots somewhat.

 

Reason #3: To “limit” the traffic to a cache due to it’s placement in a sensitive area. If the area is that sensitive, then I really have to question the wisdom in placing a cache there in the first place. Limiting the traffic to a cache is easily accomplished by other means, i.e. tougher or longer hike, difficult puzzle, etc.

 

Boiled down to it’s most basic elements, geocaching is about hiding caches and seeking caches. While Premium Membership should offer additional features that make that activity easier/more fun/more conveinient/etc., the basics of hiding & seeking should, IMO, remain free and accessible to all cachers.

 

For PMs that place caches that are permanently MOC, I ask this simple question: Are you willing to put your “smileys” where your money is and stop seeking caches hidden by regular (non-PM) members? If not, it seems that you are being somewhat of a hypocrite by telling us regular members that we are not worthy to seek your caches, but you are good enough (better?) to seek ours. Unfortunately, that's where the "elitist" impression comes from.

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... #2c: To protect caches from a local “cache-maggot”. This is the only legitimate “cache protection” reason, but even then should only be used on a temporary basis, as cache-maggots tend to lose interest after a while. Additionally, the current requirement that users be “logged-in” before being able to view cache pages/coordinates has probably reduced the number of maggots somewhat. ...
The thing is, that really isn't a legitimate reason. There is no way of knowing that the 'cache maggot' isn't a PO'd premium member who obtains his/her cache data via a PQ. In fact, if the individual is really angry, he might pay the three dollars to be able to access the information, anyway. Either way, the individual will still be able to access the cache information and will not be able to be identified by the cache owner.
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75% of my caches are members only, why you ask ?

 

They are for folks that play the game the same way I do, Is that wrong, don’t think so they are my caches and will continue to do so. If that does not float your boat, does not bother me in the least, am feeling froggie swimming around the big pond of life having a blast

 

Joe

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Oh my gosh!! I just put myself in a group with many of you here....Too much time on my hands!! So, I just don't buy food, medicine, or pay my bills so I can sit around and "B___h" about having to pay $30. to find MO caches. Guess I'll just have to find myself a nice park bench and whittle. Maybe someone will give me a knife and a piece of wood.

So you're telling me that a college student can't rake someone's yard, collect recyclables, or perform some other odd job to earn $3.00?

 

I don't care if someone chooses not to be a premium member. What bothers me is when members complain that others shouldn't be able to hide premium caches.

Then my question to you is why do you argue one issue when your problem is with the other?

 

In the case that you presented "the starving student," I can accept that as a reason not to be Premium member. For someone who caches all the time, but refuses to "pony up" $30.00, I consider them a bit "parasitic."

 

I debate these topics to defend those of us who like to hide PMOCs as a perk to other monetary supporters of this site. I have 81 active hides, 15 of them are currently PMOCs. If a cacher can't afford to pay for a premium membership, they can find my other 66 caches.

 

I will never buy into the Elitism argument, unless premium memberships costs rise to hundreds of dollars.

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I have made a number of my caches into MOCs after some muggling problems in my area. Did this help with the problem? I can't really say one way or the other in an educated way, but I haven't had any of my PMO caches muggled since they were made MOC.

 

I also like to think that perhaps it helps with the quality of trade items since the folks now visiting my caches were at least willing to pony up a few buks to find them and maybe are less likely to be cheapskates in trading. Again, I would really can't say if making them MOCs has helped wit that or it is just because they now have fewer visitors.

Edited by Bill & Tammy
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I really don't appreciate the member's only caches. Geocaching.com was designed as a free website, and I don't like having to pay for the multiplying number of "Member's Only" caches. I think they should make them available to everyone, or they shouldn't be there at all. Even though I'm relatively new, I think I deserve to see all of the caches. What do you guys think?

 

what makes you so special that you deserve to find MOCs without paying?

 

i'm a paying member. i don't like member-only caches. i don't hunt them just on principle. i'm not impressed by people whining that they ought to be entitled to find them just because they have it together enough to draw breath.

 

they're FOR the paying members. fine. either pay or don't. if you're playing without paying the subscription fee you're getting a pretty good deal and that's that.

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I agree with what many of you have said. There were definetly some aspects of the Premium Membership that I hadn't considered. I'm still not totally convinced that it's right, but I'm not so opposed to it now. Thanks for a different point of view.

 

I'm glad to see you're being open minded to the differences of opinion stated here. I'm curious as to why you think you "deserve" to see these caches? Maybe we could provide you better arguements for or against PMOC's if we understood your stand on the matter in more detail.

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I agree with what many of you have said. There were definetly some aspects of the Premium Membership that I hadn't considered. I'm still not totally convinced that it's right, but I'm not so opposed to it now. Thanks for a different point of view.
I'm glad to see you're being open minded to the differences of opinion stated here. I'm curious as to why you think you "deserve" to see these caches? Maybe we could provide you better arguements for or against PMOC's if we understood your stand on the matter in more detail.
I suspect that the stance came from this statement:
... Geocaching.com was designed as a free website...
Of course, GC.com allows for free use, but was never planned as a non-profit website. One of the ways to earn this profit is to sell paid premium memberships. In order for these to sell in any great numbers, additional PM features must be offered.
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I'm a little confused. It seems that whenever MOC's are brought-up the question becomes one of cost to run a website, affordability for all cachers, elitism, etc, etc.

 

These may be issues. I assume that if Groundspeak couldn't afford to run the site it would be gone and I also assume some folks cannot or choose not to buy a membership - for whatever reason.

 

Which is where I am confused. What is the problem with member-only caches? Do they harm the game? Do they cause folks to be unable to cache at all? Do they create environmental problems or tarnish the reputation of this site and hobby?

 

In the end, I think that the person placing a cache has made an economic commitment of some type. They have at least invested time in the effort of creating the cache and getting contents. Is it not within their rights to determine whether or not to make it a MOC?

 

This game is about finders and hiders. As a cache placer, I like the additional features a MOC provides and think it is fair of me to place one. If someone feels excluded -- well.... they ARE excluded. I'm really sorry about that, but it would take little effort to be included and if it is not important to you then please feel free to find some other cache.

 

I'm all for respect. This doesn't mean that I also feel I should place caches for "all". In fact, I have placed caches that aren't even LISTED at ALL. For example, if I want to give some coins to folks I know, etc. While this is definately excluding many cachers, I don't feel all that bad about it.

 

(as a note, I am excluded myself from many things: I'm not living in a million dollar house next to the ocean. Sadly, it will cost more than $3 a month to end this horrible injustice)

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
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I'm a little confused...then please feel free to find some other cache.

 

 

Thank you for articulating that so well. Although we haven't made any PMOC's (yet) I don't see what the problem is. More than that, I don't see why anyone feels they automatically "deserve" access to a cache. Access to the web doesn't give you guaranteed access to anything. I like access to the museum, bit I don't "deserve" access to every piece of art in the world (most of which are privately owned). :laughing:

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... #2c: To protect caches from a local “cache-maggot”. This is the only legitimate “cache protection” reason, but even then should only be used on a temporary basis, as cache-maggots tend to lose interest after a while. Additionally, the current requirement that users be “logged-in” before being able to view cache pages/coordinates has probably reduced the number of maggots somewhat. ...
The thing is, that really isn't a legitimate reason. There is no way of knowing that the 'cache maggot' isn't a PO'd premium member who obtains his/her cache data via a PQ. In fact, if the individual is really angry, he might pay the three dollars to be able to access the information, anyway. Either way, the individual will still be able to access the cache information and will not be able to be identified by the cache owner.

Our local cache maggot did pony up the money to jack MO caches. But gave that up and went back to reglar caches. MOC caches are safer. It hasn't been 100% but it's better than regular caches.

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You know, every time someone states that they don't agree with MOCs because it excludes many cachers and seems "elitist", PMs immediately go on and on about the money, how MOCs aren't/can't be "elitist" because it only costs a measley $3. Unfortunately, they're missing the point that we're trying to make. (Maybe most PMs are Garmin owners and can't see the forest for the trees? Sorry, couldn't resist! :) )

 

It isn't about the money. It's about excluding cachers, cachers who do, indeed, contribute to the sport and even your enjoyment of the sport. Indeed, $3 doesn't make you elitist. What makes you elitist is you telling me that I'm not good enough to search out your caches, but you are good enough (better?) to search out mine. All on the basis of only $3.

 

I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but perception is reality, and that's the perception that MOCs give. They are the one perk of Premium Membership that seems almost designed to create divisiveness. In fact, as long as that perk exists, I won't pony up the $3, specifically for that reason. However, since TPTB have decided that MOCs will be a part of Premium Membership, you do indeed have every right to place them, for whatever reason you choose, even if for no other reason than "you can". But I really hope that you would consider the "perception" that they do project and use them sparingly and/or temporarily. Please don't forget about the thousands of non-PM cachers who have placed the majority of caches that you yourself search for, and who have in reality created the very reason for this website to exist. If that's not support, then I'm not sure what is.

Edited by 4x4van
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In fact, as long as that perk exists, I won't pony up the $3, specifically for that reason.

So you won't stay at Holiday Inn because you won't be a Priority Club member, or get free roadside service because you won't join AAA, or won't get Sky Miles because you won't join the airline's club?

 

Are all those things elitist or just Groundspeak PMs?

Fair enough questions.

 

-No, I would not stay at a holiday in if I had to pay extra for a bed or roof, since a bed and a roof is the basic reason for staying at a hotel in the first place (caches are the basic reason for our sport's existence).

-I have belonged to AAA in the past; but don't anymore. There are other avenues available to get assistance in the case of a roadside breakdown. And while many businesses offer discounts for their products/services if you have AAA membership, they don't refuse to sell to you without that membership (unlike MOCs).

-Sky Miles are a nice perk for frequent fliers, but there are no destinations that I'm aware of that require Sky Miles, so I am not forced to join that club in order to visit a particular destination (again, unlike MOCs).

 

As I said in an earlier post; Boiled down to the basics, Geocaching is about hiding and seeking caches. While Premium Membership should offer perks & features to make that easier/more convienient/more fun, the basic game should remain open to all. IMO, the placement of quality caches and the respectful treatment of caches found is worth alot more to the sport overall than $3 sent to the website.

 

Again, MOCs almost seem designed to cause divisiveness. I like to think of geocachers as one big, extended family in the pursuit of a common goal. MOCs have the effect of dividing that family up into different groups, based on a single criteria that really has nothing to do with whether a person is a "quality" cacher or not. And I don't believe that is healthy for either the sport or the website.

Edited by 4x4van
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