Urban Caching

[Mr.Yuck]

Thanks for the analysis of my logs...glad you had some time on your hands for that.

 

I had a much longer response written debunking most of your points, but I've elected not to bother. You just continue to have fun researching my logs and chasing Spew.

 

Well the obvious answer for anyone in this thread who has had a British Columbia Sock puppet troll spend hours stalking them through their profile would be that of course they've found a handful of such caches years ago. Geez, you don't think I didn't run out in 2004 and find the first "keyholder on a guardrail for no other reason than being a keyholder on a guardrail" in my area? By the way, I saved you some trouble, Here it is. Opinions were formed as spew began to run rampant, eventually becoming the dominant cache type in some urban areas.

[+Kit Fox]

 

 

Hey thats great and all...But if you Dislike Urban Caching so much,Why do you do them?

Caches you (Kit Fox) have done:

 

Interesting. A profile-stalking sock-puppet account troll. Go ahead, I know it's inevitable. I'd like to see some of my old logs anyways.

 

He must be a friend of Stoned Cacher

 

 

-BG Tel,the cache description says "You Could Almost Grab it from the Car.

 

This cache was in the middle of the desert, next to a road. It was hardly urban.

 

-Rocks Galore (a freeway overpass) and you said "I had to use my geosense to find the cache. Took the Geocoin. Thanks for the cache."

 

Suburban area, and the only reason I found this cache was because of the Geocoin.

 

-Del Taco Van Nuys #3 you said "My first Del Taco cache, thanks."

 

I had some time to blow, and this was almost a year, and 206 find ago. My preference changed.

 

Clearly you are thanking them for the Cache.So why do you try to put down others who do the same?

But im sure you dont mind them as much when they are FTF's right?...

I skip FTF all the time, I'll be damned if I'll drive 10 miles out of the way, to log a container first. I already have 120 FTFs, they don't excite me anymore.

 

Before you say people who have cached a micro or a nano have "lower Quality standards" think a little harder first.It sounds like you think your better than other cachers,Because you drive 160 miles to a cache...does the distance travelled determine how good of a cacher you are?

 

I'm referring to crappy hides, located in crappy location. Here is a big secret for ya! Not all urban caches are lame.

 

Wasnt your first cache called..MLDC micro (GCJTG9)?? with the Description "This cache is practically a "drive-up" micro."What about everyone who thanked you for that Hide?

I hid this cache 2 1/2 years ago, when I had 19 finds. The location is next to a historic treasure, now a jail. Read more about the location here. Royal Polaris Flight Academy One could argue that this is more interesting than a Wal Mart Parking Lot cache.

 

Here are some more of my "park and grabs" for your "review"

The Llano Del Rio Geocache

The Treasure Trove (LDR Farm Operation

And

The Treasure (LimeKiln Ruins

Edited February 2, 2007 by Kit Fox

[+drat19]

Thanks for the analysis of my logs...glad you had some time on your hands for that.

 

I had a much longer response written debunking most of your points, but I've elected not to bother. You just continue to have fun researching my logs and chasing Spew.

 

Well the obvious answer for anyone in this thread who has had a British Columbia Sock puppet troll spend hours stalking them through their profile would be that of course they've found a handful of such caches years ago. Geez, you don't think I didn't run out in 2004 and find the first "keyholder on a guardrail for no other reason than being a keyholder on a guardrail" in my area? By the way, I saved you some trouble, Here it is. Opinions were formed as spew began to run rampant, eventually becoming the dominant cache type in some urban areas.

Thanks, TWU. I actually had my debunk response broken down point-by-point that he made, but as I said, I elected not to bother.

 

Bottom line remains: I think Spew (i.e., NOT ALL MICROS, just thoughtless numbers-oriented hides placed in large quantity to the point of overrunning an area) sucks, but I can't fight it anymore, because obviously lots of other people either a. don't think it sucks and love to see those numbers increment, and/or b. don't know any better because that's the dominant hide type that they've seen in their areas since they started in the game recently.

 

However, while I can't fight it, I will continue to feel free to comment on it as the situation/thread warrants it. Folks sick of reading my comments may similarly feel free to PLONK me, just as I have done to one argument-monger on these Forums in particular, whose posts I got sick of reading.

[+KBI]

Sock puppet or not, I'm hearing a lot of backpedaling -- and a lot of personal attacks, indicating a shortage of reasoned and logical rebuttals.

 

Those of you "just my humble opinion" folks who love to publicly and rudely criticize the lack of pizzazz in the hiding styles of others shouldn't act so surprised when someone publicly calls your opinion what it is: rude. Freedom of speech doesn't come with freedom from consequences.

 

That's just my humble opinion.

[+tozainamboku]

I find it silly to attack the people who complain about MicroSpew for having found some urban micros or even for logging thank you. These people are complaining about MicroSpew because the have yet to find away to skip all MicroSpew without skipping some urban micros they might like. There are many reason why an urban micro hater may look for an urban micro. Kit Fox appparently is willing to hold his nose and look in a parking lot if there is a geocoin he wants to log there. I'll wager that most of these cachers will hunt these when they go caching with friends who do like to do these caches. And if the logs say thanks for the cache, it just shows that they are polite. My impression is that the anti-urban cachers don't really feel all urban micros are lame. They either found one in some really disgusting place or just got tired of too many lightpost in one day and want to vent their frustration in the forums. Even people who enjoy urban caching have days when they complain about a poorly placed cache or about lack of creativity.

[+Criminal]

I believe that all cache hides have their place in the game, lame micros included. I prefer not to hunt them because I don’t find them enjoyable in the least. Some might consider that a dichotomy of ideals, but it really isn’t. If someone enjoys grinding to bump up their find count, that’s their bag and I don’t fault them for it. The caches are there, right? So what do I care if someone goes looking for them? I choose what I will hunt and what I will not. I spent several hours designing a puzzle and about $20 for a unique container for a cache hide in a small park. The very day I was going to place it, I got a notification that someone had dropped a tiny breath mint container in the park. The puzzle idea went to the back burner and the container is delighting finders in another park. Oh well.

 

My new urban cache, mentioned previously, is NOT meant to be a cut on urban micros, it’s more of a demonstration of what can be done if we put our minds to it. It’s meant to debunk the paradigm that all urban (city) caches need to be tiny. It reads the way it does because that’s part of the puzzle. It’s not a series.

 

I do endorse the quote from the page mentioned above. If one of our local hiders like EraSeek hides a cache, it’s a pretty good bet it’s going to be fun. That’s his reputation. If more of us endeavor to consider our reputation when we set up a cache hide, the game can only get better.

[+KBI]

Even people who enjoy urban caching have days when they complain about a poorly placed cache or about lack of creativity.

Not all people.

 

Your sig line says "If you're not having fun, you don't have anyone to blame but yourself." I happen to agree with that when it comes to this issue.

 

We all deal with things every day in life that aren't as perfect as we'd have liked. Some of us, however, choose not to whine about our fellow cachers' occasional failure to adequately entertain us to our satisfaction.

[+Kit Fox]

I find it silly to attack the people who complain about MicroSpew for having found some urban micros or even for logging thank you. These people are complaining about MicroSpew because the have yet to find away to skip all MicroSpew without skipping some urban micros they might like. There are many reason why an urban micro hater may look for an urban micro. Kit Fox appparently is willing to hold his nose and look in a parking lot if there is a geocoin he wants to log there. I'll wager that most of these cachers will hunt these when they go caching with friends who do like to do these caches. And if the logs say thanks for the cache, it just shows that they are polite. My impression is that the anti-urban cachers don't really feel all urban micros are lame. They either found one in some really disgusting place or just got tired of too many lightpost in one day and want to vent their frustration in the forums. Even people who enjoy urban caching have days when they complain about a poorly placed cache or about lack of creativity.

 

This cache ruined it for me. I still not sure why I actually found it. I think I found it, because I was going to find #800 the next day, and I was running short of time to get close to the milestone. Now I'm in no rush for milestones, I only find the caches that I want to find, and only blame myself, if I don't have fun.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Drat is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He's been very vocal that he used to like micros, admits he was a 'numbers-ho', but found that it was not his cup of tea, and changed his mind and style of caching.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) is hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

[+drat19]

Drat is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He's been very vocal that he used to like micros, admits he was a 'numbers-ho', but found that it was not his cup of tea, and changed his mind and style of caching.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) is hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

I appreciate the post and support, Ed.

 

Everything you said is true, except for this slight tuning:

 

I liked the OCCASIONAL micro (and still do, if well-placed). When micros (especially of the Spew variety) became the vast majority in many places, I broke...and so began the crusade.

 

As to your "at every opportunity" point: You'll note I don't start these threads anymore (gave up on that when my "The New Numbers Game" thread spiraled out of control back in June'06), but I jump in from time to time because it's clear that I'm not alone on this crusade...others have been making the same observations more and more. Sure, plenty of others disagree, and that's fine, but agree or disagree, the issue is out there and it's real.

Edited February 2, 2007 by drat19

[+Criminal]

I'm impressed with your new found tolerance! Let me fix it up a bit:

 

Drat Criminal is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) false logging practices is are hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

 

Edited February 2, 2007 by Criminal

[Mr.Yuck]

Del Taco Van Nuys #3 you said "My first Del Taco cache, thanks."

I had some time to blow, and this was almost a year, and 206 find ago. My preference changed.

 

Maybe Kit Fox was a "stoned cacher" at that particuliar time, and he needed to stop at the Taco stand for some munchies?

Edited February 2, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+gh patriot]

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I'm impressed with your new found tolerance! Let me fix it up a bit:

 

Drat Criminal is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) false logging practices is are hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

 

Yes, that too is an accurate expression of my belief!

 

It's not new-found tolerance, however... my constant refrain has been "play it your way", the most tolerant of positions! I tend to enter the fray when someone says "play it my way or I will bash and belittle you". I indeed have zero tolerance for that!

[+supertbone]

Drat is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He's been very vocal that he used to like micros, admits he was a 'numbers-ho', but found that it was not his cup of tea, and changed his mind and style of caching.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) is hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

I appreciate the post and support, Ed.

 

Everything you said is true, except for this slight tuning:

 

I liked the OCCASIONAL micro (and still do, if well-placed). When micros (especially of the Spew variety) became the vast majority in many places, I broke...and so began the crusade.

 

As to your "at every opportunity" point: You'll note I don't start these threads anymore (gave up on that when my "The New Numbers Game" thread spiraled out of control back in June'06), but I jump in from time to time because it's clear that I'm not alone on this crusade...others have been making the same observations more and more. Sure, plenty of others disagree, and that's fine, but agree or disagree, the issue is out there and it's real.

 

You may have already stated this previously (so please forgive me if I have missed it), but what do you suggest be done to remedy this issue? Do you think it should be left to the community to establish the standard or should the Groundspeak and the reviewers do something? I am not advocating either point, I just want to get your feedback since you feel so pationate about the subject. Are you more concerned about the number of them or just the quality of them? I am assuming the latter to be the case.

 

I personally prefer a good hike and the well placed prefer ammo can or decon kit hides (GCQVW1), but I don't mind most urban micros. I find that with three kids and a career, urban caches are about all the time I have for a weekday diversion. Those just happen to be mostly micros. That being said I have seen a couple of bad micros (hidden in a drain pipe, in a crushed lamp skirt, and under a trash can).

[+sbell111]

... what do you suggest be done to remedy this issue? Do you think it should be left to the community to establish the standard or should the Groundspeak and the reviewers do something? ...

Depending on how you define 'left to the community to establish the standard', I pick either 'community' or neither. Edited February 2, 2007 by sbell111

[+drat19]

Drat is stuck on one issue and pounds us with it at every opportunity... to the point where some of us may skim over his posts because we already know (or think we know) what he has to say.

 

If you wade through all the rhetoric, however, you'll see how he came to his current position.

 

That said, he's a great guy trying to make a difference he believes needs to be made.

 

He's been very vocal that he used to like micros, admits he was a 'numbers-ho', but found that it was not his cup of tea, and changed his mind and style of caching.

 

He now believes micro-spew (not micros themselves) is hurting the game he loves and is trying to do what he thinks is right.

 

To now go back in time and judge him by what he used to like to do is unfair and silly.

 

Hopefully we all continue to learn and grow... I pity the man that is the same man today that he was years ago!

I appreciate the post and support, Ed.

 

Everything you said is true, except for this slight tuning:

 

I liked the OCCASIONAL micro (and still do, if well-placed). When micros (especially of the Spew variety) became the vast majority in many places, I broke...and so began the crusade.

 

As to your "at every opportunity" point: You'll note I don't start these threads anymore (gave up on that when my "The New Numbers Game" thread spiraled out of control back in June'06), but I jump in from time to time because it's clear that I'm not alone on this crusade...others have been making the same observations more and more. Sure, plenty of others disagree, and that's fine, but agree or disagree, the issue is out there and it's real.

 

You may have already stated this previously (so please forgive me if I have missed it), but what do you suggest be done to remedy this issue? Do you think it should be left to the community to establish the standard or should the Groundspeak and the reviewers do something? I am not advocating either point, I just want to get your feedback since you feel so pationate about the subject. Are you more concerned about the number of them or just the quality of them? I am assuming the latter to be the case.

 

I personally prefer a good hike and the well placed prefer ammo can or decon kit hides (GCQVW1), but I don't mind most urban micros. I find that with three kids and a career, urban caches are about all the time I have for a weekday diversion. Those just happen to be mostly micros. That being said I have seen a couple of bad micros (hidden in a drain pipe, in a crushed lamp skirt, and under a trash can).

I don't see how Groundspeak/reviewers could possibly resolve the issue, since they can't visit every listed cache. So, it's up to the community. Not-so-subtle peer pressure goes a long way (we kept cache quality high in my home turf of the Miss. Gulf Coast for a long time (but less so now since Katrina) because there was a group of active cachers who set the bar high on our choices of cache hides and locations...including micros - and we preached the quality issue at every Event cache we held and via our local forums), but obviously not far enough in an increasing number of areas. The "community" has spoken and it wants to crank stats. In the absence of Crim's various definitions of cheating, the easiest "honest" way to do that is by hiding and finding massive numbers of quickly-and-cheaply-placed caches...Micro Spew.

 

The way the game is currently defined on Geocaching.com, I think the damage (my term...others would call it "the fun") is too widespread now. The alternative would have to be to play under the auspices of another site or organization, whose rules might include different quality standards.

[+sbell111]

... Not-so-subtle peer pressure goes a long way ...

This is why I qualified my answer above. One person's 'not-so-subtle peer pressure is another person's excuse to post an exceptionally snarky log or send a very rude email.

[Cytron]

Lastly, we must be sure that the caches we hide are memorable to the finder and worth their time and expense. Gasoline, parking, and food are just 3 of the expenses a finder must bear. Remember, every time you hide a geocache, you build on your reputation, so you need to decide what kind of character you want to have in the community. When you hide a cache, what do people think? “Wow, another cache, it must be a good one!” or, “Wow, another cache, he must have terrific breath!”

 

This is exactly what I remind myself before I hide any cache.

You also affect the "caching reputation" of your area. Click me. Note the date of the article; things have changed in some of those regions I cited since then, but my sentiments regarding the subject have not.

You post a letter saying what kind of cache you like to find (or that you think ALL geocacher like) and procede to complain about areas of the country where the caches you happened to find on your trips weren't the kind of caches you like. If I hid my caches with an eye toward what ALL cachers might think of my cache, not just in terms of "hiding them like I might like to find 'em" I wouldn't have hidden any of my caches. They all require significant hikes, several require solving a difficult puzzle, and some are even micros in the woods. These are the kinds of caches I like to find. My caches get very few visitors. Yet, I notice that a parking lot micro will get lots of visitors and very few of them complain.

 

You gave Orlando as an example of an area that as a place with EXCELLENT caches. I found a 35mm in a Wal*Mart lamp post there and my first "Off Your Rocker" cache there. Both were memorable hides for me. (The Wal*Mart hide said "it's just standing there with no magnets or velcro". Yet several people noted that they had found the velcro where the cache was attached and some even claimed this as a find. ) I also spent one afternoon in Orlando finding a series of caches hidden along a bike trail that included several ammo cans as well as various smaller cantainers some of which were cleverly camouflaged. My point is that every area has a variety of cache types and depending on the time you have to research you can find the kinds of caches you like. If you want to judge areas based on your limited experience caching in an area feel free. You are entitled to an opinion. It isn't going to convince me that the people who hid those caches are somehow having less fun.

You make some interesting counterpoints (as always).

 

First of all, I did caveat in my post that things in some of those areas have changed since I first published that letter back in '04 (and you'll also note that I've documented ad nauseum in these forums that I believe that mid'04 was when Micro Spew became unofficially "out of hand" in more than just a few regions).

 

Second of all, I've also documented in these forums that I've largely admitted defeat to fighting The New Numbers Game...evidently a fair number of people do find it fun to run up their numbers on what *I* (and YMMV!) consider to be less-than-high-quality caches/locations. I will feel free to comment on it, though.

 

My letter basically asks the question: What reputation do you want your area to have in the caching community? I made the point very clearly that in every one of the areas I cited, there are/were high-quality caches to be found. But that doesn't diminish the fact that the word gets out in the community that "You can go to <name your metro area here> and run up your numbers on Micro Spew." Since '04, the number of "name your metro areas" has grown...all it takes it one or two determined cache hiders to flood an area. (Recent cases in point: Ask the cachers in Rochester, MN, or Erie, PA, certainly not major metros, what their "caching reputations" are among those who have visited and cached them lately.)

 

As you said, I am entitled to an opinion (as are you). Some folks will agree with it, some folks won't. I can live with that.

 

And that doesnt stop you from Caching them...Why is that?

 

-Honey I have to go to Home Depot (GCGZQF)

 

-Independence Day "Quick Cache and Go" and you had to make sure you got it because "After being unable to approach the ArdenCache cache due to high water, I drove over here for a quick park-n-grab in order to add Delaware to my "states cached" list, which nowstands at 37." A quick Park and grab..isnt that the same thing you Dislike so much?

 

-WHITE CASTLE (GCHNYJ) "Quick grab once I figured out where to park."

 

You talk about "Micro Spew" in 04...Yet you cached WELL over 5 dozen Micros that year...if that was the year your letter was "published" why did you do so many Micros?Did you do them even tho you knew you didnt like them?were you caching micros in between drafting your letter?

 

Also Could it be that you too were responsible for the Micro-Spew? With 21 of your 46 cachings Being Micro sized?(Only 4 remain)

 

Your Letter really doesnt mean much when you dont practice what you preach.

 

Its the thrill of the hunt, if it takes you to a great spot, even better.

Thanks for the analysis of my logs...glad you had some time on your hands for that.

 

I had a much longer response written debunking most of your points, but I've elected not to bother. You just continue to have fun researching my logs and chasing Spew.

 

Resorting to name calling huh?? thats mature...again...if you hate Micros so much,,,why do you do them? and why do you place micro caches?

[+TrailGators]

I find it silly to attack the people who complain about MicroSpew™ for having found some urban micros or even for logging thank you. These people are complaining about MicroSpew™ because the have yet to find away to skip all MicroSpew™ without skipping some urban micros they might like. There are many reason why an urban micro hater may look for an urban micro. Kit Fox appparently is willing to hold his nose and look in a parking lot if there is a geocoin he wants to log there. I'll wager that most of these cachers will hunt these when they go caching with friends who do like to do these caches. And if the logs say thanks for the cache, it just shows that they are polite. My impression is that the anti-urban cachers don't really feel all urban micros are lame. They either found one in some really disgusting place or just got tired of too many lightpost in one day and want to vent their frustration in the forums. Even people who enjoy urban caching have days when they complain about a poorly placed cache or about lack of creativity.

This is written very well and pretty much describes the situation with me. I have actually found hundreds of micros so I speak from experience. Microspew is real. It exists. I am sick of it. There is no "easy" way to filter it out of my PQ. There are many people that feel this way or will eventually feel this way once they cross the line like we have.

[+sbell111]

...if you hate Micros so much,,,why do you do them? and why do you place micro caches?

Drat doesn't hate micros, so it seems. He hates micros that he doesn't like. Since he came upon this realisation at a time when he changed from being 'about the numbers' to not being 'about the numbers', he assumes that everyone who likes what he doesn't must still be 'about the numbers'.

 

His tagging micros that he doesn't like as being 'microspew' makes it appear that he hates all micros and, frankliy, does a disservice to his own argument.

[+sbell111]

There are many people that feel this way or will eventually feel this way once they cross the line like we have.

I find this statement to be quite rude. It assumes that everyone that doesn't agree with you is somehow 'less evolved'. I'm kind of surprised that you would stoop to such a statement.

[+drat19]

Resorting to name calling huh?? thats mature...again...if you hate Micros so much,,,why do you do them? and why do you place micro caches?

Apparently my decision not to honor this poster's bait with my original point-by-point debunk was the correct decision after all. Say hello to my little friend: PLONK. Now there are 2 members on my exclusive list.

[+sbell111]

Welcome to the land of peace and logic, cytron. You will quickly find that Drat's not being able to read your post does not really affect you, at all.

Edited February 2, 2007 by sbell111

[+supertbone]

The only way I can see Groundspeak fighting the issue is if a widesweeping edict came down banning certain types of hides and requiring users to provide more info to the reviewers on how the cache was hidden and on the area where it was hidden. Maybe requiring a picture of the cache site? Groundspeak could help by instituting a ratng system. These might not be the best ways of handling but they may help.

 

IMHO, peer pressure can go a long way if it is done constructively and tactfully. Drat19, I like your use of events to preach quality. There are some very imaginitive people out there who can show others some cool tricks and ways of hiding caches.

Edited February 2, 2007 by supertbone

[+sbell111]

...IMHO, peer pressure can go a long way if it is done constructively and tactfully. Drat19, I like your use of events to preach quality. There are some very imaginitive people out there who can show others some cool tricks and ways of hiding caches.

That's the key.

 

In order to improve an area's cache quality, lead by example. Hide great caches. People will recognize your caches as great. When you go to events talk about the great caches that you have found. Talk about hiding styles and locations that you liked.

 

Do not discuss how bad some caches are. Never single out individual caches or cachers. Certainly never send out tacky emails that basically tell someone that their hides are not good or post an open letter lamenting on how bad everyone else is. That's just lame.

Edited February 2, 2007 by sbell111

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Peer pressure may indeed be the answer - just not the answer you want!

 

For 'micro-spew' to exist there have to be many geocachers hiding them and many more finding them.

 

The voices AGAINST 'micro-spew' may in fact now be a minority.

 

That being the case peer pressure indicates that the minority will be coerced to the majority's will and desire!

 

The voices in this forum are far less effective than what is actually happening out in the real world - and what's happening out there is that folks are hiding what they like to find - lots o' micros!

[+drat19]

The only way I can see Groundspeak fighting the issue is if a widesweeping edict came down banning certain types of hides and requiring users to provide more info to the reviewers on how the cache was hidden and on the area where it was hidden. Maybe requiring a picture of the cache site? Groundspeak could help by instituting a ratng system. These might not be the best ways of handling but they may help.

 

IMHO, peer pressure can go a long way if it is done constructively and tactfully. Drat19, I like your use of events to preach quality. There are some very imaginitive people out there who can show others some cool tricks and ways of hiding caches.

Thanks for the kind words, STB. While I'm terribly vocal about this issue here on the Forums, I've learned the hard way that there are constructive ways to preach the message.

 

Several years ago, I publicly called out, on our local forums and in my logs, a new (at the time) hider of seemingly-thoughtlessly-placed caches in Central Mississippi, and I was (correctly) called out in return for being less than constructive. I took my lumps (also publicly on our local forums), apologized sincerely (because I was indeed wrong to do that), and since that time that cacher and I have become good friends. He's also become one of our state's BEST hiders, with quality caches in well-chosen locations.

 

I applied those lessons to another new (at the time) cacher in the Mobile area who was flooding the town with Spew. He was a major catalyst for the articles on my web site, in fact. I exchanged several Emails with him, politely (really!), and his response was that he was "playing a different game" with his hides, just trying to get as many caches as possible out there with little regard to location quality. We agreed to disagree, and I adopted the tactic of simply signing a two-letter entry on my on-line logs of any of his caches (which I subsequently stopped searching, of course): "SL." No comments, and no offense either. Interestingly, a year or so later, he received so many complaints about his caches/locations from other cachers that he ended up archiving all his caches with the post on each of them, "Too many complaints, I'm archiving my caches now." Obviously I wasn't alone in my displeasure with his hides/locations.

 

I've since published my articles and have been crusading ever since. Some people agree, some people don't, and THAT'S FINE WITH ME...because the plonk option exists for anyone who doesn't care to read about it anymore.

[+drat19]

Peer pressure may indeed be the answer - just not the answer you want!

 

For 'micro-spew' to exist there have to be many geocachers hiding them and many more finding them.

 

The voices AGAINST 'micro-spew' may in fact now be a minority.

 

That being the case peer pressure indicates that the minority will be coerced to the majority's will and desire!

 

The voices in this forum are far less effective than what is actually happening out in the real world - and what's happening out there is that folks are hiding what they like to find - lots o' micros!

Sad but true, Ed. As I've pointed out, I still comment on it, but I've come to the realization that I can't fight it anymore. The masses, apparently, want Spew...it's all about the numbers. In order to find enjoyment in this game, looks like I'm just going to have to continue to work harder to search out the better-quality caches and locations.

Edited February 2, 2007 by drat19

[The Vargman]

Here I go, putting my wooden nickels worth into it again...

 

Supertbone actually asked something that brought up a good point to me...If you think it's wrong, what (if anything) should be done about it? It made me think...okay presuming that geocaching.com agrees they are bad...now what? Do you have the reviewers verify if all cache sizes and locations? Do you archive the existing ones? Do you ban additional ones? Does it prevent a micro cache being placed in an urban area near some interesting architechture? a statue?

 

I guess it kinda boils down to...Do you destroy one good thing to save another?

[+drat19]

Here I go, putting my wooden nickels worth into it again...

 

Supertbone actually asked something that brought up a good point to me...If you think it's wrong, what (if anything) should be done about it? It made me think...okay presuming that geocaching.com agrees they are bad...now what? Do you have the reviewers verify if all cache sizes and locations? Do you archive the existing ones? Do you ban additional ones? Does it prevent a micro cache being placed in an urban area near some interesting architechture? a statue?

 

I guess it kinda boils down to...Do you destroy one good thing to save another?

Your counterpoints are valid...that's why the way GC.COM is currently listing the game, the only hope is either via peer pressure or use of another site/org. And apparently the peer pressure of competition for higher and higher stats is trumping the competition for better and better caches/locations...so, so much for that.

[Clan Riffster]

Dern! Now I feel left out. Obviously I'm not posting enough anti-micro comments if I can't even get a sock-puppet troll to review my profile.

 

OK, back on topic:

Varg, I don't think Groundspeak will take any action regarding quality control. Their role is strictly that of a listing service, and if a soggy log film canister hidden by a stinky dumpster meets the guidelines, it will get published. I don't think there is any way to stop micro-spew, as there are far too many uninspired players in this game now. I believe we can attempt to limit micro-spew through leading by example, posting honest logs and avoiding carpy caches.

[+tozainamboku]

Here I go, putting my wooden nickels worth into it again...

 

Supertbone actually asked something that brought up a good point to me...If you think it's wrong, what (if anything) should be done about it? It made me think...okay presuming that geocaching.com agrees they are bad...now what? Do you have the reviewers verify if all cache sizes and locations? Do you archive the existing ones? Do you ban additional ones? Does it prevent a micro cache being placed in an urban area near some interesting architechture? a statue?

 

I guess it kinda boils down to...Do you destroy one good thing to save another?

Your counterpoints are valid...that's why the way GC.COM is currently listing the game, the only hope is either via peer pressure or use of another site/org. And apparently the peer pressure of competition for higher and higher stats is trumping the competition for better and better caches/locations...so, so much for that.

Of course this doesn't prevent Geocaching.com from making changes to the guidelines for certain type of cache placements. They did this with virtuals by adding the "Wow" requirement and ultimately by moving virtuals to Waymarking.com. I think the experience with virtuals means it's highly unlikely that there will be a quality requirement put on urban micros. However, I have heard of one proposal to require explicit permission for caches placed in what appears to be parking lots. The reviewers already require this for caches near schools and certain public buildings as well in any parks where they are aware of a policy that requires explicit permission to place a cache. The problem is that it may be hard to implement for reasons that also show why it is hard for cachers to avoid looking for these hides. It has happened to me when caching out in the desert north of L.A. where Kit Fox and Supertbone live. I've look at the satellite image in Google maps and seen that the cache is in what appears to be a vacant lot or open desert often right by a dirt road - so it may explain why it is a 1/1. Then when I drive out there it's in a lamppost in the brand new shopping mall.

Edited February 2, 2007 by tozainamboku

[+drat19]

Dern! Now I feel left out. Obviously I'm not posting enough anti-micro comments if I can't even get a sock-puppet troll to review my profile.

It's OK, C-R. He made me feel so honored that I had no choice but to plonk him. Edited February 2, 2007 by drat19

[+sbell111]

Dern! Now I feel left out. Obviously I'm not posting enough anti-micro comments if I can't even get a sock-puppet troll to review my profile. ...

Just because someone disagrees with you does not make him a troll or sock puppet. A look at his profile suggests that he is a noob, not a sock.

[+drat19]

I definitely agree with the edit to this thread's subtitle (anyone else notice it?). It's time for this thread to be closed.

[The Vargman]

Your counterpoints are valid...that's why the way GC.COM is currently listing the game, the only hope is either via peer pressure or use of another site/org. And apparently the peer pressure of competition for higher and higher stats is trumping the competition for better and better caches/locations...so, so much for that.

Just to be clear, I personally don't think about the numbers as part of this debate. I only use my numbers to count my memories. I see the issue more like "What should a cache be?". And on that point, I'm one of those "Do it your way." people myself, but I can see both sides of this. Hence the "Destroy one good thing to save another" comment.

 

Okay, my second sentence is a bit cheesy, but I think it's still on point.

[+TrailGators]

There are many people that feel this way or will eventually feel this way once they cross the line like we have.

I find this statement to be quite rude. It assumes that everyone that doesn't agree with you is somehow 'less evolved'. I'm kind of surprised that you would stoop to such a statement.

I'm not sure why you took it that way. I think most of the people that complain about microspew have crossed an imaginary line where they had enough of it. I've said before in prior logs that if most people do a repetitive activity, they will eventually become bored with it. I think almost everyone will agree that they enjoyed the first lamp post cache that they found. The second one wasn't quite the same since they had seen it before. The 3rd, 4th...10th......50th.........100th........I think you get the point. Somewhere between the 2nd one and the 100th one most people cross a line and get completely bored with it. So my point is that it's the variety of caches that makes caching more fun.

[+drat19]

Your counterpoints are valid...that's why the way GC.COM is currently listing the game, the only hope is either via peer pressure or use of another site/org. And apparently the peer pressure of competition for higher and higher stats is trumping the competition for better and better caches/locations...so, so much for that.

Just to be clear, I personally don't think about the numbers as part of this debate. I only use my numbers to count my memories. I see the issue more like "What should a cache be?". And on that point, I'm one of those "Do it your way." people myself, but I can see both sides of this. Hence the "Destroy one good thing to save another" comment.

 

Okay, my second sentence is a bit cheesy, but I think it's still on point.

Re your counterpoint that you don't think numbers are part of the debate: Fair enough, and I do see your point (really). My point is that I believe that the Micro Spew issue came about over the past several years as a direct result of the quest for numbers (i.e., "how can we get as many caches out there as quickly and as cheaply as possible?"). We agree to disagree on that part of it.

[+drat19]

I've said before in prior logs that if most people do a repetitive activity, they will eventually become bored with it.

You'll pardon my sense of irony TG, since you know we're totally on the same side of this debate:

 

My head is starting to hurt from banging it against the wall making this same argument around here over and over and over again. Also ironically, it hurts EVEN THOUGH I'm not reading posts from the 2 users I've plonked. That's why I've indicated that I think it's time to close this thread...it's a lost cause.

Edited February 2, 2007 by drat19

[Mr.Yuck]

Nothing to see here.

Edited February 2, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[The Vargman]

Dern! Now I feel left out. Obviously I'm not posting enough anti-micro comments if I can't even get a sock-puppet troll to review my profile.

 

OK, back on topic:

Varg, I don't think Groundspeak will take any action regarding quality control. Their role is strictly that of a listing service, and if a soggy log film canister hidden by a stinky dumpster meets the guidelines, it will get published. I don't think there is any way to stop micro-spew, as there are far too many uninspired players in this game now. I believe we can attempt to limit micro-spew through leading by example, posting honest logs and avoiding carpy caches.

 

I totally agree what you put in your last sentence "leading by example". To me, that's "Doing it your way."

[+sbell111]

There are many people that feel this way or will eventually feel this way once they cross the line like we have.

I find this statement to be quite rude. It assumes that everyone that doesn't agree with you is somehow 'less evolved'. I'm kind of surprised that you would stoop to such a statement.

I'm not sure why you took it that way. I think most of the people that complain about microspew have crossed an imaginary line where they had enough of it. I've said before in prior logs that if most people do a repetitive activity, they will eventually become bored with it. I think almost everyone will agree that they enjoyed the first lamp post cache that they found. The second one wasn't quite the same since they had seen it before. The 3rd, 4th...10th......50th.........100th........I think you get the point. Somewhere between the 2nd one and the 100th one most people cross a line and get completely bored with it. So my point is that it's the variety of caches that makes caching more fun.

I kind of agree with you. However, I think that we all get burned out from time-to-time even without the issue of whether some micros are lame. I suspect that those 'burnout' threads that were started prior to Drat's crusade against microspew would bear this out.

 

The important thing is for each of us is to continually evaluate what makes us happy. The solution for some might be to go on a numbers run, or to cache with friends, or alone, or to seek out hard puzzles, long hikes, or perhaps set down the GPSr for a bit and work on the old golf game.

[+TrailGators]

I've said before in prior logs that if most people do a repetitive activity, they will eventually become bored with it.

You'll pardon my sense of irony TG, since you know we're totally on the same side of this debate:

 

My head is starting to hurt from banging it against the wall making this same argument around here over and over and over again. Also ironically, it hurts EVEN THOUGH I'm not reading posts from the 2 users I've plonked. That's why I've indicated that I think it's time to close this thread...it's a lost cause.

That is funny!

[+drat19]

 

Thanks for the analysis of my logs...glad you had some time on your hands for that.

 

I had a much longer response written debunking most of your points, but I've elected not to bother. You just continue to have fun researching my logs and chasing Spew.

 

Resorting to name calling huh?? thats mature...again...if you hate Micros so much,,,why do you do them? and why do you place micro caches?

 

<edited out upon request>

Once again, TWU, you da man...thanks for the backup.

 

Having said that: For one thing, I don't think he's a sock puppet based on HIS logs...he just looks like a newcomer based there in BC, who discovered these discussions and has jumped in a little too aggressively without being prepared for the repercussions of HIS words by other readers. That's why he only elicited, basically, a "whatever" response from me (along with the plonkage, of course ).

 

As for the e-stalking of my logs, well, I suppose we're all susceptible to that by posting our experiences and travels in this game publicly like this. Folks are free to intepret them however they want, if they feel the need to spend that much time examining them.

Edited February 2, 2007 by drat19

[Mr.Yuck]

 

Once again, TWU, you da man...thanks for the backup.

 

Having said that: For one thing, I don't think he's a sock puppet based on HIS logs...he just looks like a newcomer based there in BC, who discovered these discussions and has jumped in a little too aggressively without being prepared for the repercussions of HIS words by other readers. That's why he only elicited, basically, a "whatever" response from me (along with the plonkage, of course ).

 

As for the e-stalking of my logs, well, I suppose we're all susceptible to that by posting our experiences and travels in this game publicly like this. Folks are free to intepret them however they want, if they feel the need to spend that much time examining them.

 

Yeah, overboard on my part. I see I'm probably responsible for the title of the thread being edited. But I was once relentlessly cyberstalked by a couple of kooks who spent hundreds of hours reading everything I ever posted to the internet for clues to my identity, whose sole purpose in life was to find out my real name and where I lived (and who knows where they would have taken it after that).

So yes, it's kind of a sore subject with this cacher. And of course if you post it on the internet, anyone who wants can spend all the time they want "examining it".

 

I'm going to edit the post you quoted from me, if you also wouldn't mind editing it out of your response as well, I'd appreciate it.

Edited February 2, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Renegade Knight]

Jane, you ignorant, micro spewing, butt.

 

Enough said.

[+drat19]

I'm going to edit the post you quoted from me, if you also wouldn't mind editing it out of your response as well, I'd appreciate it.

Done.

[+TrailGators]

Jane, you ignorant, micro spewing, butt.

 

Enough said.

I actually heard Dan Akroyd's voice when I read that....

[Mr.Yuck]

Jane, you ignorant, micro spewing, butt.

 

Enough said.

I actually heard Dan Akroyd's voice when I read that....

 

Just 10 minutes ago I was explaining to my daughter how The Coneheads (a movie) actually started as an SNL skit.

 

I might be mistaken, but hasn't Jane left us?