Private Property

[+Caching Scout]

What do they mean when they say not to place on private property? Do they consider private property a place you can't access, or any thing not owned by the goverment? I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA. Can i place a cache there?

[+sbell111]

Who said that caches can't be on private property. This is not correct.

[+Moose Mob]

Caches cannot be placed on private property without permission. Permission from your IGA (or any other parking lot) is assumed. I don't have the legal terms handy, but it has something to do with open parking lots and the lack of signs that say "customers only" or anything that states there is no access outside of store hours.

[+Woodlit]

I think when they say private property, you have to use your common sense. If you find an excellent spot in a tree in your neighbors backyard, that would be private property, and a no no.

If you found a spot in a parking lot, there is a good chance a cache will survive there without a problem. Unless of course, when you say government property you mean something like a courthouse. Something like that I'd stay away from.

[+Caching Scout]

I think when they say private property, you have to use your common sense. If you find an excellent spot in a tree in your neighbors backyard, that would be private property, and a no no.

If you found a spot in a parking lot, there is a good chance a cache will survive there without a problem. Unless of course, when you say government property you mean something like a courthouse. Something like that I'd stay away from.

I mean goverment property to be parks

[+Woodlit]

For parks... I'd imagine if the park was out in the boondocks a cache would do well there. Now if the park borders homes, you might want to get permission from the parks commsion of that town. Large parks are great for caches, but keep in mind that small parks are horrible places for caches. Some people, including myself, don't like to walk around a small park where all the moms have a very close eye on you, thinking you have a close eye on their 4 year old.

[+Moose Mob]

Even with government own land you need to be familiar with who manages the land. In the USA, National Park Service says no, and 99% or Wildlife Refuges (FWS) also say no. City parks usualy don't care, but some do (permission is assumed unless they say otherwise). You need to be familiar with the policies.

 

Parks Canada has different policies. Ask you local caching community for more details about your area, or ask on the canadian threads.

[+Woodlit]

Just thinking, if it is labeled as a state park, you probably need to ask permission. Some state parks have strict guidelines etc for caches

[+Confucius' Cat]

My comments do not apply to parking lots of government buildings, but to those provided by businesses.

 

Parking lots are a special case. They belong to their owner, but are presented to the public for the sole purpose of parking one's car and approaching the place of business unless other permission is given by the owner.

 

The owner has the right to forbid any other use, but no right to discriminate against members of the public based upon criteria that are specifically forbidden by law. I.E. they can run you off or tow your car for pretty much any reason except because you are the wrong colour or such.

 

As an example of unusual restrictions that seem to pass legal muster, our local UAW parking lot is posted that they will tow any foreign cars parked there. I assume they have a legal right to do so, notwithstanding that some of their members probably had a hand in making the foreign car.

 

Basically when you use a business parking lot, you are their guest and must follow their rules and you should treat the privilege with the same courtesy that you would as a guest anywhere else.

 

I think the confusion that we get in this sport is thinking that because the public is permitted access that the public can do pretty much anything they want that is not specifically illegal. This is simply not true. One cannot automatically assume that a parking lot can be used for ANYTHING except access to the business that owns it.

 

Now, are all parking lot caches placed with permission? *wink wink nudge nudge*

 

They SHOULD be.

[Mr.Yuck]

My comments do not apply to parking lots of government buildings, but to those provided by businesses.

 

Parking lots are a special case. They belong to their owner, but are presented to the public for the sole purpose of parking one's car and approaching the place of business unless other permission is given by the owner.

 

The owner has the right to forbid any other use, but no right to discriminate against members of the public based upon criteria that are specifically forbidden by law. I.E. they can run you off or tow your car for pretty much any reason except because you are the wrong colour or such.

 

As an example of unusual restrictions that seem to pass legal muster, our local UAW parking lot is posted that they will tow any foreign cars parked there. I assume they have a legal right to do so, notwithstanding that some of their members probably had a hand in making the foreign car.

 

Basically when you use a business parking lot, you are their guest and must follow their rules and you should treat the privilege with the same courtesy that you would as a guest anywhere else.

 

I think the confusion that we get in this sport is thinking that because the public is permitted access that the public can do pretty much anything they want that is not specifically illegal. This is simply not true. One cannot automatically assume that a parking lot can be used for ANYTHING except access to the business that owns it.

 

Now, are all parking lot caches placed with permission? *wink wink nudge nudge*

 

They SHOULD be.

 

I think the question should be are any parking lot caches placed with permission? (All while the reviewers look the other way, under the "assumption of permission" policy). What else can we do there? Skateboard? Play lawn darts? Smoke crack? Find these caches at 2:00 AM, when the business is open from 8:00 AM to 10:00 PM daily? As CC says, They should be placed with permission, but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

[+theUMP]

I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA.

This is the part I have trouble with!

Why would I be pleased to be taken to a spot in a suburban parking lot?

 

Sorry, off topic, I know, but it needed challenging before another cacher starts his career thinking that geocaching is all about light posts and dumpsters...

[Aushiker]

I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA. Can i place a cache there?

G'day

 

I am curious as to what makes your IGA parking lot so great for a cache? Our parking lots are normally concrete and cars. Not something that I personally find attractive. So I am now intrigued.

 

Regards

Andrew

[Mr.Yuck]

I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA. Can i place a cache there?

G'day

 

I am curious as to what makes your IGA parking lot so great for a cache? Our parking lots are normally concrete and cars. Not something that I personally find attractive. So I am now intrigued.

 

Regards

Andrew

 

I'm sort of thinking the Original Poster is talking about a wooded area next to the IGA parking lot?? In my region (Northeastern U.S.), I've seen dozens of "woods next to retail business" caches. Most of them, if not all, probably are on private property. If the OP is really concerned about this, maybe ask the IGA manager?

 

In my County (in New York State), you can quickly look up the ownership of any land parcel in the County on an internet mapping system. I don't know how widespread this is though. For example, in the County North of me, there is no such capability available.

[+sbell111]

... but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

Ummm, a state legislature would have no standing in the matter. They could not prescribe whether or not a cache could be hidden (or found) on private land. Edited January 5, 2007 by sbell111

[Princess Kalli]

I've been concerned about the rise of caches on "Private Property" in my area. When I talk "Private Property, I mean the caches placed in the bushes at the Burger King, where the bushes and flowers are getting ruined, and the local historical society's flower garden. Not just the parking lot shirtlifter behind McDonald. These caches are what i believe someday may have local communities start writing ordinances banning geocaching. I'm seeing more and more caches on these types of Private Property without permission.

 

I've asked a few small businesses that had nice statues or landscaping if I could put a cache nearby to bring people to their property, I've never gotten turned down.

 

Too many people just assume that property with open public access, is not private property, they are totally wrong.

[+Team CoyChev]

I've been concerned about the rise of caches on "Private Property" in my area. When I talk "Private Property, I mean the caches placed in the bushes at the Burger King, where the bushes and flowers are getting ruined, and the local historical society's flower garden. Not just the parking lot shirtlifter behind McDonald. These caches are what i believe someday may have local communities start writing ordinances banning geocaching. I'm seeing more and more caches on these types of Private Property without permission.

 

I've asked a few small businesses that had nice statues or landscaping if I could put a cache nearby to bring people to their property, I've never gotten turned down.

 

Too many people just assume that property with open public access, is not private property, they are totally wrong.

 

Oppps My granddaguhter was looged in on my computer last.

 

The post above was from me.

[Mr.Yuck]

... but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

Ummm, a state legislature would have no standing in the matter. They could not prescribe whether or not a cache could be hidden (or found) on private land.

 

Yes Sbell I see this post!!! We're not on the same sheet of music though. Point I was trying to make is that ever since "the incident" in South Carolina, cemetery caches are rejected by gc.com reviewers across the board, along with a standard cut and paste response along the lines of "Although Cemeteries are open to the public, they are private property. If you can demonstrate permission to place this cache, I will be happy to review it again and list it if it meets the guidelines". Who is to say that someday, the word "cemeteries" could not be replaced by the phrase "retail parking lot"?

[+sbell111]

... but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

Ummm, a state legislature would have no standing in the matter. They could not prescribe whether or not a cache could be hidden (or found) on private land.

 

Yes Sbell I see this post!!! We're not on the same sheet of music though. Point I was trying to make is that ever since "the incident" in South Carolina, cemetery caches are rejected by gc.com reviewers across the board, along with a standard cut and paste response along the lines of "Although Cemeteries are open to the public, they are private property. If you can demonstrate permission to place this cache, I will be happy to review it again and list it if it meets the guidelines". Who is to say that someday, the word "cemeteries" could not be replaced by the phrase "retail parking lot"?

I don't see how any legislative action could cause that to happen. In fact, I suspect that the big retailers would act to block any legislation that served to reduce the number of people that had cause to come to their lots. The argument being that while a person is there to log the cache, perhaps they will come in to buy a pen.

[Mr.Yuck]

... but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

Ummm, a state legislature would have no standing in the matter. They could not prescribe whether or not a cache could be hidden (or found) on private land.

 

Yes Sbell I see this post!!! We're not on the same sheet of music though. Point I was trying to make is that ever since "the incident" in South Carolina, cemetery caches are rejected by gc.com reviewers across the board, along with a standard cut and paste response along the lines of "Although Cemeteries are open to the public, they are private property. If you can demonstrate permission to place this cache, I will be happy to review it again and list it if it meets the guidelines". Who is to say that someday, the word "cemeteries" could not be replaced by the phrase "retail parking lot"?

I don't see how any legislative action could cause that to happen. In fact, I suspect that the big retailers would act to block any legislation that served to reduce the number of people that had cause to come to their lots. The argument being that while a person is there to log the cache, perhaps they will come in to buy a pen.

 

Probably no legislative action on a State-wide basis such as the Cemeteries, historical and archeological sites of South Carolina. But I could certainly see local action as mentioned by CoyChev. And the local action could easily spread. The argument I've heard a zillion times "It's OK, what business wouldn't want more traffic in their parking lot?" in my opinion doesn't excuse the fact that thousands of so-called "caches" have been hidden on private property in parking lots without permission, under a "look the other way" policy.

 

And by the way, statements like these by people like myself, Confucsious Cat and CoyChev are made by people who love geocaching, and don't want to see it perceived in a bad light in any manner. In my opinion, people rooting around looking like escaped mental patients in parking lots in public for their 15 second smiley, casts us in a bad light.

 

An opinion I know many don't share.

[+Moose Mob]

Lets bring this topic back in line with the OP's question, ok?

[+jon & miki]

... but I guess it's going to take a major incident like a State Legislature threatening to ban geocaching, as happened with cemetery caches.

Ummm, a state legislature would have no standing in the matter. They could not prescribe whether or not a cache could be hidden (or found) on private land.

On the contrary, private land can and does overlap with areas of government interest such as cemeteries, historical and archeological areas and our state government can and does restrict what landowners can do with their own land. Edited January 5, 2007 by jon & miki

[+fox-and-the-hound]

What do they mean when they say not to place on private property? Do they consider private property a place you can't access, or any thing not owned by the goverment? I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA. Can i place a cache there?

 

Private Property is land owned by an individual or business for private use. Your yard is private property. If it's owned by anyone other than the public at large (including townships, counties, states and the government) then it's most likely private property.

 

The easiest way to find out who owns it is a quick visit to the Mapping and Assessments office at your local town hall. It's like a public library where people will help you look up publicly listed information (and maps!) of anywhere in your county. You can find out exactly where property lines run and who owns what along with contact information. This is public information and very accessible.

 

Good rule of thumb is, if you're not sure then don't do it without permission. Your reviewer is probably going to ask you anyway so get ahead by finding out.

[Mr.Yuck]

Lets bring this topic back in line with the OP's question, ok?

 

Oh geez, was I ranting again? OK I'm done. see my post here: Post #13 assuming the OP is talking about the woods next to the IGA.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I think when they say private property, you have to use your common sense. If you find an excellent spot in a tree in your neighbors backyard, that would be private property, and a no no.

If you found a spot in a parking lot, there is a good chance a cache will survive there without a problem. Unless of course, when you say government property you mean something like a courthouse. Something like that I'd stay away from.

This is an important point: even in the states -- such as Maryland, West Virginia and Idaho -- with very casual and relaxed property/trespassing laws, properties which are obviously private residential properties, along with tilled/tillable or planted farm fields, are considered to be posted private property where trespassing is not allowed even if these properties are lacking Posted or No Trespassing signs or symbols (most states employ a vertical blue bar symbol, painted on trees or posts at or above chest height, and at least 5 inches wide and 8 inches tall.) In these states and the approximately 28 other states with relaxed trespassing laws, the law essentially states that if private property (i.e., rural or wilderness property) is not posted with conspicuous Posted signage, then anyone passing by may assume that it is safe and legal to walk through that property or engage in other reasonable activities thereupon. And, the reality is that some states or regions of states are far more relaxed about enforcement of trespassing laws than others. An interesting case in point about such tolerance is easten West Virginia: A few months ago, I spent a lot of time on the phone over several days speaking with several county sheriff's deputies and one town police department because I was planning to place an extreme cache in that county which would have involved climbing and caving on rural wilderness property. Not only did all the officers with whom I spoke assure me that WV, like my home state of MD, is one of the states with very relaxed trespassing laws, but two of the officers told me that enforcement in their region of trespassing laws where a person clearly crossed a line marked with No Trespassing signs is very casual and relaxed, and that they will never bother to issue a citation or arrest a person unless they strongly suspect that the person had malevolent intent for being on that property. Now, you may wish to contrast this attitude to that of Wyoming, which is one of the states which employs very strict trespassing laws, where you must assume that all property which you encouter is private and posted unless you explicitly know otherwise, and where enforcement of such laws is quite strict, particularly for hunters and fishermen!

 

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above is not legal advice. Rather, I have shared information which is the result of my own research on the web and of interviews with law enforcement personnel, land managers and experienced hunting/wilderness guides in several states. Further, I perform some volunteer geocache/letterbox reviewing for MD DNR for some local state parks, and the DNR administrators with whom I work have, over the years, been very willing and able to provide me with detailed tutorials on trespassing laws, for which I am grateful. I have shared some of what I have learned above.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Renegade Knight]

What do they mean when they say not to place on private property? Do they consider private property a place you can't access, or any thing not owned by the goverment? I have found a great spot for a cache and it by a parking lot with IGA. Can i place a cache there?

Any place of public accomodation is a valid location to consider a cache. After that your own knowledge of the cache spot and community kick in. Consider doesn't not automaticly mean 'place'.

 

I took a hunter safetey class and they had a section on when to ask permission to hunt and fish. I found it to be a great common sence guide for rural areas. Urban areas are a bit different. For those I use a different approach. Would I be willing to answer to any prospective land managers or property owners if I put a cache there? If the answer is yes, I would place the cache. If the answer is fuzzy I will obtain specific permission. If the location is not one that accomodates the general public I don't even consider it for a cache.

[+Renegade Knight]

...This is an important point: even in the states -- such as Maryland, West Virginia and Idaho -- with very casual and relaxed property/trespassing laws, properties which are obviously private residential properties, along with tilled/tillable or planted farm fields, are considered to be posted private property where trespassing is not allowed even if these properties are lacking Posted or No Trespassing signs or symbols ...

 

This dovetails almost identically with the hunter safety class on when to ask to hunt and fish.

[Mr.Yuck]

Any place of public accomodation is a valid location to consider a cache.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I've seen you type that exact same sentence, word for word, many times. You don't have it on your Windows Clipboard, do you? For example, I'm a big fan of the good ol' frisbee rule. Do you need permission to play frisbee in the Wal-Mart parking lot? I'd say yes. And I wouldn't recommend it during normal business hours, it's probably dangerous.

 

Back on topic though, I think the OP is wanting to place a cache in woods next to a retail establishment, which is most likely private property. I've seen it done several times. A very interesting question. I've already given my answer though (post #13 again).

[+Renegade Knight]

Any place of public accomodation is a valid location to consider a cache.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. ...

 

BZZZZZT! Nice try but wrong about being wrong. Consider the word consider. That does not mean "place willy nilly" The entire phrase is a summary of a longer paragraph I read on Letterboxing about where you could place letterboxes. Consider, in this case means, think about, ponder, look at, examine, pontificate, or otherwise investigate the possibility of placing a cache taking in the context of it's environment.

 

A courthouse is a place of public accomodation, but not a good place for a cache. However like everthing it's possible under the right circumstances.

 

I will continue to use the phrase unless you can come up with something better.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[Mr.Yuck]

Any place of public accomodation is a valid location to consider a cache.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. ...

 

BZZZZZT.

 

Oh C'mon RK, that's no good I'll tell you another reason why that statement about public accomodation is totally wrong. Little known fact: Permission is required to place a cache in the Wal-Mart parking lot, a place of "public accomodation". However, this permission is assumed by the reviewers, when in reality, it is not obtained in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

Edit: I see I was typing as you were editing. Here's where I say is a valid location to consider placing a cache: Public property (with a permit if local policy deems it), and private property with permission. That's pretty much it!!

Edited January 5, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Renegade Knight]

The frisbee rule is a simply way to think about places of public accomodation and it has the advantage of ruling out some places that might allow the public but which make bad places for caches. Like the center of the interstate. Any place you would be willing to play frisbee is a valid place to consider placing a cache. Again I've used the word consider. I'd not think twice about playing frisbee at my local school after hours. However I'd not place a cache there.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Oh C'mon RK, that's no good Seriously, I'll tell you another reason why that statement is totally wrong. Permission is required to place a cache in the Wal-Mart parking lot. However, this permission is assumed by the reviewers, when in reality, it is not obtained in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

The need for adequate permission is one of the considerations you have to take into account when placing a cache.

 

What constitutes adequate permission is a debate in and of itself.

 

I think you are looking at the angle of a single cache where I've made a statment of how to scope the world for potential cache locations. Think if it a a first level screening tool.

[Mr.Yuck]

The need for adequate permission is one of the considerations you have to take into account when placing a cache.

 

What constitutes adequate permission is a debate in and of itself.

 

I think you are looking at the angle of a single cache where I've made a statment of how to scope the world for potential cache locations. Think if it a a first level screening tool.

 

Got it. I agree. I certainly did analyze it to the nth degree for a single case. OK, this time I'm really going to stay on topic.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Do they consider private property a place you can't access, or any thing not owned by the goverment? ...

 

That pretty much covers it. Anything owned by someone other than the government is private property. If you want to know who owns a piece of land the county assessor's office can help. Since they tax it, they keep records of who ownes it. Those records are public. Some counties even make this information available online.

 

An interesting aside.

I was talking with the BLM recently and they showed me some parcels that are 'private property' but which were never patented. A patent is the deed given by the US government when it gives land over to a private party. Without a patent the land belongs to the government. Thus there are homes built on some lots that are considered private, but which the people who have bought and sold the land for the past 100 or more years are nothing more than squatters. The BLM has chosen not to persue the issue at this time. Placing a cache in their front yard would not be wise even if the land is public...sort of.

[+Confucius' Cat]

In my inion, people rooting around looking like escaped mental patients in parking lots in public for their 15 second smiley, casts us in a bad light.

 

An opinion I know many don't share.

 

I think there are probably a lot more that share that opinion than you might think.

 

Perhaps this consideration should replace the frisbee rule.

 

When considering a cache, especially one in an urban setting or on private property, one of if not THE prime considerations should be "what will seekers look like they are up to as they search for this cache?"

 

If it would logically be perceived that seekers would look like one of the following:

drug dealer

child molestor

thief casing the premises

terrorist

other unsavoury personality

then specific permission should be obtained and the people in the area who are likely to be watching seekers should be informed about what we do.

 

In the case of a business parking lot, the suspicions could easily be "thief" or "drug dealer".

 

Every time the police have to investigate one of us, even if for a bogus complaint, it is one more nail in our sport's coffin. We got a big coffin and it will hold a lot of nails, but with each police call we scoot a little closer to bannination- especially on a local level.

[muttz]

. . . Not just the parking lot shirtlifter behind McDonald. These caches are what i believe someday may have local communities start writing ordinances banning geocaching. . .

 

Oppps My granddaguhter was looged in on my computer last.

 

The post above was from me.

 

Ummm, I think those kind of cachers might get arrested for exposure instead of trespassing.

 

The Private Property thing concerns me a lot. I am just getting back into this game after a quick start and stop quite some time ago. I want to be able to hunt for the difficult caches, but will need to stick with the easy ones for awhile. As my wife and I start to feel better then we can pursue higher levels of terrain difficulty. Anyway, I chose an easy cache in a Wal-Mart lot for our second find. It felt kinda creepy lifting up that plastic skirting at the base of the lampost. It is just one of those places where I feel that management probably wouldn't appreciate it, and a police officer would probably take much more notice of me doing something like that.

When we first started it was before the 9/11 attack. I don't remember having the same concerns back then. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it because I do not want to be perceived as something I am not. So in closing this little rant I was wondering how much of the Private Property issue is controlled by specific guidelines or assumed guidelines--the latter being where we assume a cacher is following at least common sense?

[+Confucius' Cat]

. . . Not just the parking lot shirtlifter behind McDonald. These caches are what i believe someday may have local communities start writing ordinances banning geocaching. . .

 

Oppps My granddaguhter was looged in on my computer last.

 

The post above was from me.

 

Ummm, I think those kind of cachers might get arrested for exposure instead of trespassing.

 

The Private Property thing concerns me a lot. I am just getting back into this game after a quick start and stop quite some time ago. I want to be able to hunt for the difficult caches, but will need to stick with the easy ones for awhile. As my wife and I start to feel better then we can pursue higher levels of terrain difficulty. Anyway, I chose an easy cache in a Wal-Mart lot for our second find. It felt kinda creepy lifting up that plastic skirting at the base of the lampost. It is just one of those places where I feel that management probably wouldn't appreciate it, and a police officer would probably take much more notice of me doing something like that.

When we first started it was before the 9/11 attack. I don't remember having the same concerns back then. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it because I do not want to be perceived as something I am not. So in closing this little rant I was wondering how much of the Private Property issue is controlled by specific guidelines or assumed guidelines--the latter being where we assume a cacher is following at least common sense?

I certainly wouldn't assume THAT.