Found hobo camp while researching new cache area

[+Couparangus]

Greetings all.

 

I've been busy searching for new and out of the way places for my next cache(s). In so doing, I found an old hobo camp that had been abandoned about 2 years ago - if discarded newspapers are anything to go by. I continued on for another 1,000ft through the bush and stumbled upon another hobo camp which clearly was inhabited. I could tell this as there was a candle glow from inside. Given the remoteness of the location, I deemed it wise to backtrack my way out of there. This hobo camp is on what I believe is MTRCA property. Should I notify them? Should I call in the local constabulary (OPP) ? Should I stage a night-raid with big flashlights? Should I just assume that its some harmless recluse/hermit living here and place my cache anyway?

 

What would you do?

 

C-A

[danoshimano]

What would you do?

 

I would probably do nothing. I have come across abandoned encampments before, and a lived-in one only once (along Willow Creek where it goes into Little Lake in Barrie). I wouldn't want to be responsible for chasing somebody away be contacting the authorities.

 

If there is any question at all about the occupants being dangerous, maybe return with a group of three people and try to meet him/her/them.

[+hamgran]

As one who has worked with the homeless before, I wouldn't call the authorities unless there was a medical problem of some sort, or there were children involved.

You mentioned the area that they were in was remote; I would place my cache in a different part of the conservation area, so that cachers wouldn't disturb them.

- hamgran

[+Juicepig]

On one of my pre-caching adventures I came across a gypsy village in the haliburton (Ontario) region. They seemed to live in abandonned buses, and were all getting around on ponies, one of the most surreal places I have ever been!

 

I say just leave them be, or if you must, return with a friend and have a conversation with them - maybe they work for the authority

[Pnerissa]

My cache partner and I stumbled near an illegal immigrant camp. Not wanting the situation to turn dangerous we carefully backtraced out of the area. Only a couple of months later they discovered a body in the same area. I try to use this example to remind me to never cache alone, although I'm still guilty of it from time to time...

 

Neri

[+wildernessdancer]

As a person who eventually wants to go live in the wilderness and try surviving out there I would really hate it if someone reported where my hut was!! Let him or her be!!

[+Couparangus]

If there is any question at all about the occupants being dangerous, maybe return with a group of three people and try to meet him/her/them.

I like this idea. Anybody wanna come along with me and pay a visti? (Caledon area) Email me privately if you'd prefer.

You mentioned the area that they were in was remote; I would place my cache in a different part of the conservation area, so that cachers wouldn't disturb them.

I guess I could, but the remoteness of this area is what would make the cache so interesting and challenging to get to.

maybe they work for the authority

I guess I should consider this. Its possible this camp is a bonafide study of some type. It was quite neat and tidy for vagrants.

Only a couple of months later they discovered a body in the same area.

Egads! I did find two skulls during this outing. Once was a deer and the other a racoon though.

As a person who eventually wants to go live in the wilderness and try surviving out there I would really hate it if someone reported where my hut was!! Let him or her be!!

Ah yes, but would you do it in the middle of a conservation area?

 

C-A

[+cache_r_joe]

You are assuming they are vagrants. What if if it is just someone who wants to be alone and live in the woods. There are times I wished I had that. I would suggest that unless there is a chance of violence, medical issue or childern involved I would do nothing. The person could have a grade 2 education or be a Yale grad, you never know.

 

I would suggest in the absence of a discussion with the occupant(s), find another place for your cache.

 

Joe

[+Couparangus]

Hey, I'm all for getting some dialogue going with the occupant(s). Given the elevated likelihood of (a) vicious dog (saw tracks nearby) ( mental health issues © criminal behaviour (d) general anger & paranoia (e) possible weapons, it would be great to have some muscle behind me.

 

Its very difficult to find good caching areas and I'm not ready to let this one go just yet. I think there's been a recent waning of interest in caching due largely to the preponderance of lame and poorly thought out hides.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+Juicepig]

I will come, just have to find a free day! How far out is it? Is it a camp full of hobos, or is it just one guy with a dog?

 

Hey, I'm all for getting some dialogue going with the occupant(s). Given the elevated likelihood of (a) vicious dog (saw tracks nearby) ( mental health issues © criminal behaviour (d) general anger & paranoia (e) possible weapons, it would be great to have some muscle behind me.

 

Its very difficult to find good caching areas and I'm not ready to let this one go just yet. I think there's been a recent waning of interest in caching due largely to the preponderance of lame and poorly thought out hides.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+TOMTEC]

He he, assembling a goon squad are we? Count me in! Never know, this could become an interesting stage... Speak to the occupant to receive your next coordinates. Bring him a can of beans if you also want the hint!

 

TOMTEC

 

I will come, just have to find a free day! How far out is it? Is it a camp full of hobos, or is it just one guy with a dog?

 

Hey, I'm all for getting some dialogue going with the occupant(s). Given the elevated likelihood of (a) vicious dog (saw tracks nearby) ( mental health issues © criminal behaviour (d) general anger & paranoia (e) possible weapons, it would be great to have some muscle behind me.

 

Its very difficult to find good caching areas and I'm not ready to let this one go just yet. I think there's been a recent waning of interest in caching due largely to the preponderance of lame and poorly thought out hides.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[Digital_Cowboy]

Greetings all.

 

I've been busy searching for new and out of the way places for my next cache(s). In so doing, I found an old hobo camp that had been abandoned about 2 years ago - if discarded newspapers are anything to go by. I continued on for another 1,000ft through the bush and stumbled upon another hobo camp which clearly was inhabited. I could tell this as there was a candle glow from inside. Given the remoteness of the location, I deemed it wise to backtrack my way out of there. This hobo camp is on what I believe is MTRCA property. Should I notify them? Should I call in the local constabulary (OPP) ? Should I stage a night-raid with big flashlights? Should I just assume that its some harmless recluse/hermit living here and place my cache anyway?

 

What would you do?

 

C-A

 

Personally if they weren't hurting anyone I'd be inclined to leave 'em alone. Or maybe go back and offer 'em some food. But I'd leave 'em alone and I would not call the cops on 'em. But that's just me.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[+Couparangus]

What if its one of these guys?

[+The Blue Quasar]

What if its one of these guys?

 

Oh come on Coup! I've met you many times and you seem like a fairly swift person.

 

Avoid the temptation.... no spot is so good to place a cache that it might endanger someone. Whether it be a cacher or the occupant.

 

Anyone living that far out of the norm, regardless of their capacity, does not want to be bothered.

 

Now imagine a Caching party coming to find your cache. They aren't hunting deer where they would be quiet... no no. They are talking and laughing etc. Now the 'hobo' hears them coming, hides to protect themself and watches the 'strangers' in their woods.

 

I'm not saying they would do anything, but it is likely that your cache would be 'found' and personally I don't see anything positive coming from this.

 

While I totally agree with most everyone else.. the adage "No Harm No Foul" applies. Let them be, and find another place.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Juicepig]

Speak to the occupant to receive your next coordinates. Bring him a can of beans if you also want the hint!

 

Drooooooooooool!!!

 

Hobo Cache!

 

[+Couparangus]

Oh come on Coup! I've met you many times and you seem like a fairly swift person.

I have a pretty thick skin, as most know, and I certainly like to clown around, but I have to admit I take mild offense to this statement.

 

Avoid the temptation.... no spot is so good to place a cache that it might endanger someone. Whether it be a cacher or the occupant.

I don't think the occupant(s) are in any danger from cachers. What is in question is the opposite.

 

Anyone living that far out of the norm, regardless of their capacity, does not want to be bothered.

I think we'd figured this out already.

 

Now imagine a Caching party coming to find your cache. They aren't hunting deer where they would be quiet... no no. They are talking and laughing etc. Now the 'hobo' hears them coming, hides to protect themself and watches the 'strangers' in their woods.

Yeah, but its not "their" woods. Geocachers are legally entitled to be there, hobos aren't.

 

While I totally agree with most everyone else.. the adage "No Harm No Foul" applies. Let them be, and find another place.

I have to disagree. This is the same thinking that people use to justify not notifying the police when someone is dealing drugs or involved in gang activity in their neighborhood. The collateral damage from these activities is well known. I'm all for live and let live, and I recognize that being an illegal "camper" is not in the same vein as the aforementioned, but I don't believe that anyone should have to modify their behaviour because someone else is doing something illegal. And that is exactly what I found myself having to do in this case.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+hamgran]

While I totally agree with most everyone else.. the adage "No Harm No Foul" applies. Let them be, and find another place.

I have to disagree. This is the same thinking that people use to justify not notifying the police when someone is dealing drugs or involved in gang activity in their neighborhood. The collateral damage from these activities is well known. I'm all for live and let live, and I recognize that being an illegal "camper" is not in the same vein as the aforementioned, but I don't believe that anyone should have to modify their behaviour because someone else is doing something illegal. And that is exactly what I found myself having to do in this case.

 

Cheers!

C-A

 

And I have to disagree with you, Coup. I don't really understand your comparisons to drug dealing or gang activity. (If I witness woman- or child-abuse, I'm the first to report it.)

This particular case could be a "homeless" situation. And a great proportion of the homeless are suffering from mental health issues, including various phobias and schizophrenia. Thanks to recent (and present) governments, safety nets are no longer in place for them. These folks tend to slip through the cracks in the system. So if they've managed to find a spot on the Earth where they can exist, far enough away (they thought) from other humans, then let them be. (And as far as being illegal campers, sometimes the term 'legal' isn't all it's cracked up to be).

Surely there is another remote place in that conservation area that would suit a cache???

[+DyverDown]

I think maybe to put it in better perspective, we are trying to compare someone's recreational activities (Geocaching) with someone possible lifestyle (which may not be shaped by choice).

 

If it comes down to putting cachers AND "residents" at risk.. I cannot see how it would be worth it in ANY way.

 

Like BQ said, it is a no win situation. Why bother?

 

Now, you may argue that they are not supposed to be there, but, what are they hurting, the location of a cache... is that really worth disrupting what "life" they have? A cache.

 

We are fortunate enough to be able to afford to enjoy a recreational activity in the outdoors, this person, or persons may not have the luxury of simply relocating to ensure we can have fun.

 

Sorry for the rant.... but that's how I feel.

 

DD

[danoshimano]

I'm thinking of the list that Couparangus posted. The RCMP wanted list. One of the methods these people can use to elude capture is aptly outlined right in this thread.

 

The decision to leave them there to their own devices is one that should be made by the proper authorities, not a citizen-geocacher.

 

I have changed my mind from my original reply. I would report it out of good conscious and leave the decision to those that are properly equipped to do so.

[+TOMTEC]

I'm familiar with the general location, and can't figure out any good reason why this person should be in the area. I don't believe C-A is actually intending to place the cache anywhere near the hobo camp, (Come on, it's a Coupar-Angus cache... it would be far to easy if a hobo can hike the distance!) but the camp is in a location that could be encountered by geocachers/hikers on their way through the area.

 

At the very least, I would inform the MTRCA of the location of the camp, just so they are aware of the "squatter" on their property, same as I would inform them of other problems. (illegal dumping, severe erosion, mysterious dead animals, blair which, hooligans on atvs, poachers, satanic ritual sites) If they choose to take action against the offender, it's now up to them.

 

Now I also don't see a problem in visiting the camp in person to meet the occupant(s). For all we know it could be some documentary film maker observing the mating habits of the local skunk population. Besides, I'm looking for a good summer cottage... that abandoned camp may just fit the bill!

 

TOMTEC

[+SamLowrey]

 

Now imagine a Caching party coming to find your cache. They aren't hunting deer where they would be quiet... no no. They are talking and laughing etc. Now the 'hobo' hears them coming, hides to protect themself and watches the 'strangers' in their woods.

 

 

I would like to point out that this demonstrates a case where caching alone, as I do, can actually be safer. I move quitely. I'm aware of my surroundings. I can make judgements to fight or flee in an instant - no lengthy committee meetings or hesitation. Just something to consider regarding the "safety in numbers" concept which seems to be accepted without much thought.

[Digital_Cowboy]

What if its one of these guys?

 

Really now what are the chances that someone who is wanted for a serious crime/offense is going to be living out in the wilderness? Just like the rest of us they are creatures of habit/comfort and they are not going to stray too far out of their comfort zones.

 

Yes, maybe a small number of them will choose to hide out in remote areas, but most of them are going to want to be where their intended victims are located. And for that they need to be in town/city/village NOT out in the woods miles and miles from civilization living like homeless people.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[Digital_Cowboy]

Oh come on Coup! I've met you many times and you seem like a fairly swift person.

I have a pretty thick skin, as most know, and I certainly like to clown around, but I have to admit I take mild offense to this statement.

 

I read that as a compliment to you.

 

Avoid the temptation.... no spot is so good to place a cache that it might endanger someone. Whether it be a cacher or the occupant.

I don't think the occupant(s) are in any danger from cachers. What is in question is the opposite.

 

There are PLENTY of caches out there that are placed in dangerous areas. That is what the rating system and descriptions are for. IF more people would printout the cache descriptions and take ‘em with ‘em then they wouldn’t be “surprised” by finding out that the cache is located near a hobo camp, or a nudist resort, or what have you. But sadly as I am sure we all know there are PLENTY of people who do NOT bother to fully read the cache description before going out after a cache. And then after they get home they post how “outraged” they were to find out the cache was stashed on/in or near a nudist facility or some other place that they find “offensive” for one reason or another. When IF they had taken the time to RTFD Read The Fracking Directions they would know what they were “getting themselves into.” But sadly, and collectively man tends to be a rather lazy animal taking the path of least resistance.

 

Anyone living that far out of the norm, regardless of their capacity, does not want to be bothered.

I think we'd figured this out already.

 

Now imagine a Caching party coming to find your cache. They aren't hunting deer where they would be quiet... no no. They are talking and laughing etc. Now the 'hobo' hears them coming, hides to protect themself and watches the 'strangers' in their woods.

Yeah, but its not "their" woods. Geocachers are legally entitled to be there, hobos aren't.

 

Given that there are plenty of public woods/forests/etc where it is legal to do long term camping and/or live who is to say that the single person or group is doing anything illegal? And given that if I’m mistaken this is public land that we’re talking about and the last time I checked even the homeless (although some would disagree I’m sure) ARE part of the public so therefore they to DO have a right to be there just as much as the cachers.

 

While I totally agree with most everyone else.. the adage "No Harm No Foul" applies. Let them be, and find another place.

I have to disagree. This is the same thinking that people use to justify not notifying the police when someone is dealing drugs or involved in gang activity in their neighborhood. The collateral damage from these activities is well known. I'm all for live and let live, and I recognize that being an illegal "camper" is not in the same vein as the aforementioned, but I don't believe that anyone should have to modify their behaviour because someone else is doing something illegal. And that is exactly what I found myself having to do in this case.

 

Cheers!

C-A

 

I’ll admit that I don’t know what the laws are up there in Canada for reporting a crime but the last time I checked down here in the States there is no law that says that a private citizen HAS to report a crime. As there are times/circumstances when/where it could be very dangerous for the one doing the reporting to do so. Are you totally sure that their camping on public lands is illegal? Now granted IF one is required to have certain permits to go camping on public property they may be guilty of violating that requirement but usually something like that would/should result in a fine being leveled on the guilty party. Or they may be “guilty” of the more “serious” charge of poaching if they’ve been hunting and/or fishing out of season.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[Digital_Cowboy]

And I have to disagree with you, Coup. I don't really understand your comparisons to drug dealing or gang activity. (If I witness woman- or child-abuse, I'm the first to report it.)

This particular case could be a "homeless" situation. And a great proportion of the homeless are suffering from mental health issues, including various phobias and schizophrenia. Thanks to recent (and present) governments, safety nets are no longer in place for them. These folks tend to slip through the cracks in the system. So if they've managed to find a spot on the Earth where they can exist, far enough away (they thought) from other humans, then let them be. (And as far as being illegal campers, sometimes the term 'legal' isn't all it's cracked up to be).

Surely there is another remote place in that conservation area that would suit a cache???

 

hamgran,

 

And sadly as we found out in another thread there are a lot of cachers here who do not wish to admit that most people/families are just one or two major illness/surgery away from being homeless. And I've gotta agree with ya that the term "legal" isn't always what it's cracked up to be. As there have been plenty of "legal" circumstances/things happen, but it doesn't make it right or moral.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[Digital_Cowboy]

I think maybe to put it in better perspective, we are trying to compare someone's recreational activities (Geocaching) with someone possible lifestyle (which may not be shaped by choice).

 

If it comes down to putting cachers AND "residents" at risk.. I cannot see how it would be worth it in ANY way.

 

Like BQ said, it is a no win situation. Why bother?

 

Now, you may argue that they are not supposed to be there, but, what are they hurting, the location of a cache... is that really worth disrupting what "life" they have? A cache.

 

We are fortunate enough to be able to afford to enjoy a recreational activity in the outdoors, this person, or persons may not have the luxury of simply relocating to ensure we can have fun.

 

Sorry for the rant.... but that's how I feel.

 

DD

 

DD,

 

That was very well put. As I said before in another part of this thread, in another thread dealing with the homeless it has been pointed out that most of us are just one or two major illness/surgery away from being homeless. That doesn't make them "bad" people or anything, it just means that they've fallen on hard times that they couldn't avoid.

 

Here in St. Pete we have a rather large homeless population and a number of them camp in a park in the middle of the city called Williams Park. They can be found in the park anytime of the day or night.

 

I am sure that some of them have mental, emotional and/or health problems, but from what I've seen for the most part they tend to stick to themselves and leave everyone else alone. And as was pointed out in an article on the homeless situation. Just "giving" the homeless a home to live in isn't going to solve the problem. What needs to be addressed first is underlying reason WHY they're homeless in the first place. If it is because of an addiction then that addiction needs to be addressed and taken care of. If it's because of a mental, emotional or medical condition that can be treated and controlled with medication then that is also what needs to be done. But just taking them off of the streets and giving them some place to live isn't going to solve things, and it won't be very long before they're right back on the streets.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[Digital_Cowboy]

I'm thinking of the list that Couparangus posted. The RCMP wanted list. One of the methods these people can use to elude capture is aptly outlined right in this thread.

 

The decision to leave them there to their own devices is one that should be made by the proper authorities, not a citizen-geocacher.

 

I have changed my mind from my original reply. I would report it out of good conscious and leave the decision to those that are properly equipped to do so.

 

danoshimano,

 

True, they may use some or all of the methods that have been outlined in this thread to avoid detection. But does that mean that we have to become agents for the local law enforcement community. Should cachers be "required" to carry up-to-date wanted lists with them when they go out into the field so that on the off chance that they encounter someone who is wanted by the authorities they will recognize them and be able to report them to said authorities.

 

Also let's not forget that it is also very likely that if it looks as if one is "spying" on them to report 'em to the authorities that they could be putting themselves in far greater danger then if they just went about their way "ignoring" the "strange" person who is living/camping out in the woods.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[Digital_Cowboy]

I’m familiar with the general location, and can’t figure out any good reason why this person should be in the area. I don’t believe C-A is actually intending to place the cache anywhere near the hobo camp, (Come on, it’s a Coupar-Angus cache... it would be far to easy if a hobo can hike the distance!) but the camp is in a location that could be encountered by geocachers/hikers on their way through the area.

 

At the very least, I would inform the MTRCA of the location of the camp, just so they are aware of the “squatter” on their property, same as I would inform them of other problems. (illegal dumping, severe erosion, mysterious dead animals, blair which, hooligans on atvs, poachers, satanic ritual sites) If they choose to take action against the offender, it’s now up to them.

 

Now I also don’t see a problem in visiting the camp in person to meet the occupant(s). For all we know it could be some documentary filmmaker observing the mating habits of the local skunk population. Besides, I’m looking for a good summer cottage... that abandoned camp may just fit the bill!

 

TOMTEC

 

Tometec,

 

Just because you “can’t figure out any good reason why this person should be in the area.” Doesn’t mean that they don’t have a good reason for being there. As has been suggested it could just as easily be researchers doing legit research, or it could be someone who is camping for a week, or weekend and has all the required permits and is already known to be in the area by TPTB.

 

I am sure that there are plenty of “hobo camps” out there that are in locations that a hiker, hunter, fisherman, or geocacher “might” encounter them. Does that mean that we have the “right” to disturb them whenever we encounter them?

 

As I said they could very well be legit campers that are already known to the MTRCA and if it’s a popular cache site they could end up receiving numerous calls about a “hobo camp” that they already know about, thus interfering in their ability to do their jobs. Also let’s not forget that considering that “satan” has pretty much only existed since the birth of christianity what most people call/refer to as being a “satanic ritual” is in reality a Pagan/Druid/Wicca ritual and that at least down here in the States is protected under the freedom of religion. And how would you feel if because of your religious bias, you reported a legitimate religious ceremony and caused someone to be persecuted for their religious belief?

 

Exactly, unless and until we find out why someone is where they are, to report them to the authorities is jumping to conclusions. And can cause problems on both sides of the issue/fence.

 

Digital_Cowboy

[+Renegade Knight]

Live and let live.

[+TOMTEC]

IF more people would printout the cache descriptions and take ‘em with ‘em then they wouldn’t be “surprised” by finding out that the cache is located near a hobo camp, or a nudist resort, or what have you. But sadly as I am sure we all know there are PLENTY of people who do NOT bother to fully read the cache description before going out after a cache. And then after they get home they post how “outraged” they were to find out the cache was stashed on/in or near a nudist facility or some other place that they find “offensive” for one reason or another.

He he, you seem to like nudist resorts! Might I suggest visiting GCZHRR for a cache (which I placed) right beside one. (Not IN one, as that would require doing it in the buff, but then we'd all require pictures to prove it.) I'm sure naked people will be the least of anyone's problems once they encounter Pottageville's famous mosquito population! Besides, as stated on the Geocaching Disclaimer: "Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache." If people choose not to read the information provided, that's not my problem!

 

Also let's not forget that it is also very likely that if it looks as if one is "spying" on them to report 'em to the authorities that they could be putting themselves in far greater danger then if they just went about their way "ignoring" the "strange" person who is living/camping out in the woods.

Since when has "ignoring the issue in hopes it will go away" ever solved things? A person has a heart attack and collapses on a busy street, people look the other way, nobody calls for an ambulance... Who can figure out what happens next? If it's within my ability to assist, even if only to lend support or to bring it to the attention of those properly trained, I will. Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but when I see a problem, I'm always going to try and come up with a solution. If I can't solve it myself, I'll find people who can! There may not be a law requiring me to do this, but as a concerned citizen, I consider it my duty.

 

TOMTEC

[+DyverDown]

Since when has "ignoring the issue in hopes it will go away" ever solved things? A person has a heart attack and collapses on a busy street, people look the other way, nobody calls for an ambulance... Who can figure out what happens next? If it's within my ability to assist, even if only to lend support or to bring it to the attention of those properly trained, I will. Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but when I see a problem, I'm always going to try and come up with a solution. If I can't solve it myself, I'll find people who can! There may not be a law requiring me to do this, but as a concerned citizen, I consider it my duty.

TOMTEC

 

I speak on this topic with a fair amount of knowledge having worked with the Police, the Military and youth at risk currently.

 

We seem to be getting away from the topic at hand... I can't see how comparing a "homeless" person camping where they do not belong can be compared to someone having a heart attack on a busy street. They are completely different issues entirely (although the Sociologist in me would suggest that society reacts similarly due to our conditioning, lack of care and simple self concern, throw in a little "I don't want to get involved" and your set)

 

The real issue is: who is he/she bothering, and perhaps more so... is confronting this issue (sending a bunch of geocachers to "meet this person" or sending the proper authorities really going to help the situation. I would suggest that unless you are prepared to take on that responsibility then you leave them alone.

 

If the police roust this person, they are NOT going to take any further action but tell them to "MOVE" and shift the problem to somewhere else. This has the potential to create a worse problem than previously existed... this person now must interact with the society he/she was originally hiding from and this can lead to potentially grave consequences, not only for the homeless person but potentially others. Unfortunately our society does not do a good job of taking care of it's citizens who fall through the cracks in the system and this is where some of them end up. Is it our responsibility to push them back into the "light" so they must face everything that has driven them out there in the first place? I hope not, because one day it could be me or you that the light has now focused on.

 

Ok... I'm done ranting now

 

DD

[danoshimano]

I'm thinking of the list that Couparangus posted. The RCMP wanted list. One of the methods these people can use to elude capture is aptly outlined right in this thread.

 

The decision to leave them there to their own devices is one that should be made by the proper authorities, not a citizen-geocacher.

 

I have changed my mind from my original reply. I would report it out of good conscious and leave the decision to those that are properly equipped to do so.

 

danoshimano,

 

True, they may use some or all of the methods that have been outlined in this thread to avoid detection. But does that mean that we have to become agents for the local law enforcement community. Should cachers be "required" to carry up-to-date wanted lists with them when they go out into the field so that on the off chance that they encounter someone who is wanted by the authorities they will recognize them and be able to report them to said authorities.

 

Also let's not forget that it is also very likely that if it looks as if one is "spying" on them to report 'em to the authorities that they could be putting themselves in far greater danger then if they just went about their way "ignoring" the "strange" person who is living/camping out in the woods.

 

Digital_Cowboy

 

There are no methods outlined in this post for a fugitive to use to avoid detection. What I was referring to was the concept that it is better to turn a blind eye and ignore something like this. It's not like they are camping out in the open. They are concealed. Couparangus did say it was a remote area, which makes it unlikely it is simply homeless people. Like you say, they tend to stay close to the action, such as the middle of a park. Staying hidden away deep in the woods is atypical.

 

"Required to carry wanted lists?" "Become agents for the local law enforcement agency?" Morals are right and wrong actions and thoughts in the context of a social group. Personally, I don't need laws (or any higher moral authority) to force me to do the right thing. I do it because it is right, and if that involves passing information to some local authority I can sleep with that.

[Digital_Cowboy]

IF more people would printout the cache descriptions and take ‘em with ‘em then they wouldn’t be “surprised” by finding out that the cache is located near a hobo camp, or a nudist resort, or what have you. But sadly as I am sure we all know there are PLENTY of people who do NOT bother to fully read the cache description before going out after a cache. And then after they get home they post how “outraged” they were to find out the cache was stashed on/in or near a nudist facility or some other place that they find “offensive” for one reason or another.

He he, you seem to like nudist resorts! Might I suggest visiting GCZHRR for a cache (which I placed) right beside one. (Not IN one, as that would require doing it in the buff, but then we'd all require pictures to prove it.) I'm sure naked people will be the least of anyone's problems once they encounter Pottageville's famous mosquito population! Besides, as stated on the Geocaching Disclaimer: “Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.” If people choose not to read the information provided, that's not my problem!

 

I wouldn’t mind checking it out, excpet that I’m down here in St. Pete, Fl and it’s way up there in Canada. And you are 100% correct about the Disclaimer, but sadly a lot of people who for whatever reason don’t don’t read the various discriptions, and are “shocked” when they get to the location and discover that it’s “not for them.” And log a compalint about how it isn’t an approriate location for a cache.

 

Also let's not forget that it is also very likely that if it looks as if one is “spying” on them to report 'em to the authorities that they could be putting themselves in far greater danger then if they just went about their way “ignoring” the “strange” person who is living/camping out in the woods.

Since when has “ignoring the issue in hopes it will go away” ever solved things? A person has a heart attack and collapses on a busy street, people look the other way, nobody calls for an ambulance... Who can figure out what happens next? If it's within my ability to assist, even if only to lend support or to bring it to the attention of those properly trained, I will. Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but when I see a problem, I'm always going to try and come up with a solution. If I can't solve it myself, I'll find people who can! There may not be a law requiring me to do this, but as a concerned citizen, I consider it my duty.

 

TOMTEC

 

Sorry if you got that impression, that isn’t what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that if it looked like some sort of truly illegal activity was taking place. To stand around “spying” on them in order to make a report later could be more dangerous then just walking on by.

 

Also so long as it’s just a homeless person(s) who have choosen to live in the woods away from civilization as a lot of Vietnam era vets have choosen to do, esp. those who had served over in Nam and who had become dissillousioned with society choose to do. Or are people who because of a major illness/injury have found themselves unemployeed and thus ending up losing their home, and are forced to live either “on the streets” or in the woods. Wouldn’t it be better to presume that they’re simply homeless then that they’re up to “no good?”

 

Digital_Cowboy

[GermanSailor]

Should I notify them? Should I call in the local constabulary (OPP) ? Should I stage a night-raid with big flashlights? Should I just assume that its some harmless recluse/hermit living here and place my cache anyway?

 

What would you do?

 

 

Just leave them alone!

 

If the persons in question didn't do anything illegal why should you disturb their way of living?

 

Since you weren't sure yourself if you should report them, you already gave the answer. No, because if there were I reason to call the police you would have been sure about it in the first place and wouldn't have asked here!

 

GermanSailor

[danoshimano]

 

If the persons in question didn't do anything illegal why should you disturb their way of living?

 

How are you making that decision? You have insufficient information to make any judgment call, which is what you are making whether you realize it or not. It is amazing how quickly that can backfire on a person.

[+Juicepig]

Should I notify them? Should I call in the local constabulary (OPP) ? Should I stage a night-raid with big flashlights? Should I just assume that its some harmless recluse/hermit living here and place my cache anyway?

 

What would you do?

 

 

If the persons in question didn't do anything illegal why should you disturb their way of living?

 

Uhm, I think the whole point of this thread is that they ARE doing something illegal - camping out in a conservation area. Assume the worst, hope for the best .. but bring your hobo beating bat just in case.

[+Couparangus]

I don't really understand your comparisons to drug dealing or gang activity. (If I witness woman- or child-abuse, I'm the first to report it.)

Yes, I guess these are two different things. I mentioned this because it is a scenario I'm familiar with more close to home (unfortunately). What I was trying to get across is that taking the passive way out isn't usually the best way to go.

Like BQ said, it is a no win situation. Why bother?

Well we don't know that.

I'm familiar with the general location, and can't figure out any good reason why this person should be in the area.

Tomtec is local to me and I shared the exact location. I don't mind sharing it with others but I'll be upset if someone puts a cache in there before I get mine out. The point I wanted to underscore is that this is an awkward area to get to, not your typical hobo-under-railway-overpass.

At the very least, I would inform the MTRCA of the location of the camp

Yes, thanks to input (from all) I've decided this will be my first tactic. I've emailed the MRTCA and asked for the appropriate person to discuss this.

I would like to point out that this demonstrates a case where caching alone, as I do, can actually be safer

Point taken but perhaps you'd like to see the scar on my left bicep from where a large dog bit me (unprovoked) during one of my adventures years ago? I guess I was tall enough that he didn't get my face. It would've been easier to club him off me if one of my arms wasn't in his mouth. It would've been a lot easier if I wasn't alone too.

Really now what are the chances that someone who is wanted for a serious crime/offense is going to be living out in the wilderness?

Pretty good I'd say! Didn't they make a TV series about this called Grizzly Adams? Whoops, I'm dating myself here.

there are a lot of cachers here who do not wish to admit that most people/families are just one or two major illness/surgery away from being homeless.

That may be the case in the USA, but with public healthcare its seldom an issue. Isn't the #1 reason for bankruptcy in the USA due to medical reasons? That ain't the case here.

The real issue is: who is he/she bothering, and perhaps more so... is confronting this issue or sending the proper authorities really going to help the situation.

Well, if the person is a danger to hikers, the environment or themself, then yes.

Since you weren't sure yourself if you should report them, you already gave the answer. No, because if there were I reason to call the police you would have been sure about it in the first place and wouldn't have asked here!

Soliciting input from the intelligent folks' involved in Geocaching is invaluable, nein mein Freund?

Uhm, I think the whole point of this thread is that they ARE doing something illegal - camping out in a conservation area. Assume the worst, hope for the best .. but bring your hobo beating bat just in case.

Having met Juicey on numerous cache hunts I can see the humour in this!

 

Thanks all for the input and any other you may have.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[GermanSailor]

 

If the persons in question didn't do anything illegal why should you disturb their way of living?

 

How are you making that decision? You have insufficient information to make any judgment call, which is what you are making whether you realize it or not. It is amazing how quickly that can backfire on a person.

 

I base my decission on the fact that a person is innocent unless proven guilty! This applies even to someone how doesn't share your way of living.

 

And as far as I know there are just a few really serious crimes where you are forced to report them. Just to report anyone, because you are scared or don't understand them is not necessary.

 

What you want can backfire as well. If you have time, just read this Wikipedia Artikel and you probably understand what I mean.

 

In dubio pro reo!

 

GermanSailor

[+Juicepig]

 

I base my decission on the fact that a person is innocent unless proven guilty! This applies even to someone how doesn't share your way of living.

 

And as far as I know there are just a few really serious crimes where you are forced to report them. Just to report anyone, because you are scared or don't understand them is not necessary.

 

What you want can backfire as well. If you have time, just read this Wikipedia Artikel and you probably understand what I mean.

 

In dubio pro reo!

 

GermanSailor

 

Hahahaha! This thread is completely out of control! The communist era Gestapo likens itself to the the Conservation authority not wanting people living on their land, burning the very things that they are trying to protect from people? Seems like a stretch, but if thats the way you want to see it.

 

The man is breaking the law by being there (hence proven guilty, should he not be with the authority). People cannot enjoy the area, because they do not want to intrude on someone "camping". If someone set up camp on your property, what would you do? The conservation authority is understaffed, and underfunded, and needs the help.

[GermanSailor]

If someone set up camp on your property, what would you do?

I would ask him to leave. As well as the wannabe cop how reported him!

 

I assumed that the hobo camp was on land where nobody bothers, since it was considered okay to place a cache there....

 

GermanSailor

[Digital_Cowboy]

There are no methods outlined in this post for a fugitive to use to avoid detection. What I was referring to was the concept that it is better to turn a blind eye and ignore something like this. It's not like they are camping out in the open. They are concealed. Couparangus did say it was a remote area, which makes it unlikely it is simply homeless people. Like you say, they tend to stay close to the action, such as the middle of a park. Staying hidden away deep in the woods is atypical.

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood that, but that is what it "sounded" like what was being said to me.

 

"Required to carry wanted lists?" "Become agents for the local law enforcement agency?" Morals are right and wrong actions and thoughts in the context of a social group. Personally, I don't need laws (or any higher moral authority) to force me to do the right thing. I do it because it is right, and if that involves passing information to some local authority I can sleep with that.

 

I can understand and respect that, but by having posted the link to the RCMP wanted list Comp was giving the impression that we as geocachers had some kind of obligation to know about criminals who were wanted, and might be living in or around the area that one is geocaching in.

 

I also agree that we all need to do the right thing more often then most of us currently do, but by the same token we should not put ourselves or our loved ones at risk in doing so. I mean stop and think about it, how would you feel if you learned that either a geocacher or "regular run of the mill" citizen or their loved ones was injured or killed while trying to obtain information to pass on to the local law enforcement agency?

 

Hopefully most will agree that when either ones own safety or their families safety is concerned that they'll weight which is more important. Turning in a potential law breaker to the proper authorities, or getting injured or killed in doing so? Or placing their family in danger by doing so?

 

Digital_Cowboy

[+Couparangus]

I can understand and respect that, but by having posted the link to the RCMP wanted list Comp was giving the impression that we as geocachers had some kind of obligation to know about criminals who were wanted

That's not what I had in mind. And I'm not a paraonoid delusionist or conspiracy theorist either, at worst a lateral thinker. There could be a number of innocuous reasons why this shelter is in the middle of nowhere:

 

- nature study

- documentary film maker

- ministry stakeout for poachers

- wildlife artist

- conservation pilot project

- Dan Gibson capturing ever more sounds of nature

- officially sanctioned environmental study

 

Or the not so innocuous

 

- fugitive

- schizophrenic/mentally ill

- drug/alcohol addict

- someone hiding out from underworld

- foreign spy

 

I mean stop and think about it, how would you feel if you learned that either a geocacher or "regular run of the mill" citizen or their loved ones was injured or killed while trying to obtain information to pass on to the local law enforcement agency?

This is the kind of fear that extornist capitalize on.

 

In any event, I don't think I have any more to say about this topic. I'll post an update on this later once we eliminate some of the conjecture.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+H.F.Reign]

Spoke to the guy (who happens to be a cop) about this one and he simply said "Call the cops". They are trained to deal with this situation-be it investigate and let things be, discover evidence of wrongdoing or assist in finding help of whatever type may be required if people are in need. It is the role of police to ensure the safety of everyone.

 

The guy gets so frustrated with people not knowing whether to contact the police or not and then in the end something happens that could have been prevented. If you think someones safety may be at risk (be it mental or physical) and you are wondering if you should call then please just call. Police have seen far more than most of us thankfully would ever dream of. They have access to information that most of us never need (again thankfully) and effectively deal with things that many of us are ignorant of (myself included).

[+The Blue Quasar]

Scrolling WAY back, I wasn't trying to offend my good buddy Coupar-Angus when I said about him normally being "Fairly Swift"... I was just kidding around and perhaps it didn't come off that way.

 

I have talked to C-A many times in MSN, and like him rather a lot.

 

Okay... the short version of the whole thing is that if anyone encounters a person living in the woods and they feel that they should contact the authorities, then they should. This would give them proper direction in these matters. Something that most of us really aren't capable of giving without it being just our opinions.

 

No matter what anyone decides, there will be people that support the decision and people that are bothered by the decision and people that really are indifferent. The most thought out plan will always have those that do not share the same enthusiasm for it.

 

If a cache is placed by someone I don't know and the location was dangerous, I would write to Cache-Tech about it and include something on the cache page for future readers.

 

If a cache is placed by someone I DO know... substitute Cache Owner for Cache-Tech.

 

Most responsible cache owners would include something in the cache description about the possibility of people living in the area, or a teenager party location.. whatever.

 

The Blue Quasar

Edited January 6, 2007 by The Blue Quasar

[+Couparangus]

Scrolling WAY back, I wasn't trying to offend my good buddy Coupar-Angus when I said about him normally being "Fairly Swift"... I was just kidding around and perhaps it didn't come off that way.

Well, all I can say to that is that full forgiveness will be granted upon furnishing one pint o' ale during the next Geopub.

 

Update: I've heard back from the appropriate person at MTRCA and I'll be sending along the details shortly.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+The Blue Quasar]

Scrolling WAY back, I wasn't trying to offend my good buddy Coupar-Angus when I said about him normally being "Fairly Swift"... I was just kidding around and perhaps it didn't come off that way.

Well, all I can say to that is that full forgiveness will be granted upon furnishing one pint o' ale during the next Geopub.

 

Update: I've heard back from the appropriate person at MTRCA and I'll be sending along the details shortly.

 

Cheers!

C-A

 

Deal!

 

Course the next pub is a Breakfast Pub... That means a Bloody Mary right?

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Couparangus]

Given the time of day I will accept a steaming cup of coffee instead.

 

I read in the local paper yesterdayt that there have been poachers about in the Caledon area. I'm guessing this could be the case with my "hobo". It might explain the deer remains found in the same area too.

[+Colorado Cacher]

Hobo Cache? You mean Hobo nickels? (look em up on Ebay, pretty interesting)

[+Couparangus]

I was hiking the area again yesterday and noticed that there has been some activity. That is to say, tire tracks from a 4WD leading off the road toward the camp. I've yet to receive an update from the powers-that-be, but will send an email to them this week.

[+ibycus]

Since when has "ignoring the issue in hopes it will go away" ever solved things? A person has a heart attack and collapses on a busy street, people look the other way, nobody calls for an ambulance... Who can figure out what happens next? If it's within my ability to assist, even if only to lend support or to bring it to the attention of those properly trained, I will. Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but when I see a problem, I'm always going to try and come up with a solution. If I can't solve it myself, I'll find people who can! There may not be a law requiring me to do this, but as a concerned citizen, I consider it my duty.

 

TOMTEC

 

Who's to say it really is a problem? If the guy wanted support from the community, do you think he'd be out in the middle of no where? I would have just left him alone, or maybe spoken with him if the opportunity presented itself. If he behaved in a way that made me unconfortable, I would report him, but as long as he isn't hurting anyone, what business is it of mine?

 

Someone was telling me the other day about a cache out in the middle of nowhere and nowhere, that there is a hermit living next to. Cachers frequently run in to him, and he kindly points them in the direction of the cache.

[+Couparangus]

Just an update. It sounds like the camp was found abandoned and is in the process of being tidied up. I wonder if the occupant had seen me and taken off shortly afterwards? I guess we'll never know if it was friend or foe. I'll scout it out this weekend and see for myself.

 

C-A

Edited February 7, 2007 by Couparangus