Legal Issues

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

The Liability Concerns thread is just the latest of many threads where lay geocachers debate legal issues relevant to our game.

 

While this debate is healthy and desirable, there can be no definitive outcome gained without expert opinion, and there is real danger that a geocacher might base his actions on misinformation found in a forum.

 

There are a lot of lawyers who geocache, and you can bet Groundspeak listens to them.

 

There are none who weigh in (in their professional persona anyway) on these legal issues that arise in the forums, for a number of reasons.

 

Why not create a geocacher's legal advice network where we collectively employ attorneys to answer these questions?

 

I belong to the American Radio Relay League (arrl.org), among other groups, who have a 'staff' of retained or volunteer attorneys who answer legal questions for members and who guide, advise and support members through legal issues.

 

We hams have issues very similar to geocachers - where and how we can place antennas, for example.

 

These attorneys are an invaluable resource and a similar capability should be adopted for our needs. I know it's possible to arrange because it's being done in other groups.

 

So, my questions:

 

Would you pay into a fund over and above Groundspeak Premium Membership that would enable geocachers to submit questions to and get advice from qualified attorneys on the issues we encounter in geocaching?

 

How would such an operation get underway?

 

Since it is not a legal question perhaps some of the experts among us could answer the second.

 

Lastly, if you are an attorney would you participate in such an endeavor? I really wish the polls worked so we could get anonymous answers to that one, as I am sure that not all geocaching attorneys want to be known as such. Feel free to ignore that one if you do not want to reveal yourself. My dad was a doctor, but sometimes kept it to himself so he wouldn't be barraged with questions! "Oh, a Doctor! Lookee here, what do you think this is?" was often the response, and that gets old (and dangerous!).

 

Thanks,

Ed

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Ed, I see several problems with your idea, and the most notable and important one lies in the ways in which geocahing differs from ham radio. Speaking here as an ex-amateur radio operator (and an ex-pirate radio station operator, but do let's not go into that here...!), ham radio is governed by the rules of the FCC, a federal agency with jurisdiction over the entire USA, and the law clearly states that FCC rules, in the realms in which they apply, override and supersede any local, town/city, county or state laws. Thus, setting up a panel of pre-paid attorneys to provide legal advice of ham radio operators is really quite easy and simple, because over 95% of the rules and laws they will come up against which can affect them are standardized across the entire USA and its territories, leaving as the residuum only local or property association rules and laws regarding restrictions on antenna or tower placement or tower height (and also permissible placement of large vertical antennas on cars.) Such is not the case with geocaching, where the primary issues of concern to many are trespassing laws and property owner liability. The laws governing such matters are largely formulated on the state level and there may be rather great variance from state-to-state; one example is the way in which different states define legal acess to privately-owned versus trespassing. Even attitudes about enforcement vary greatly from stte to state. Thus, unless such a panel included prepaid legal experts who were collectively knowledgeable about the laws in each state, I am not sure how much assistance it would really be able to offer.

 

Another point: for the size of this outdoor adventure sport and the number of people who are placing and hunting caches on a daily basis, it is my observation that we see only a relatively extremely tiny number of legal issues emerge, and rather, what seems to emerge far more often is the issue of land manager relations, which does not require an attorney, but rather requires patience, tact, good communication ability and people skills.

Edited December 27, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+9Key]

One post has a new paragraph for each sentence, the next needs a paragraph in the worst way.

[+Zilvervloot]

I’m also curious if legal support is necessary for American geocachers.

 

Geocaching is an international “game” and I would consider it unfair to charge local legal support to the international community.

 

Zilvervloot.

[Pto]

If I need legal help, I think the last place I would think to look would be a geocaching forum.......

Even if my legal issue was caching related. Having good legal advice/help is very valuable in so many cases - it only makes sense to keep one on retainer - just in case-

[+sbell111]

I also would not pay into a fund for this. If I'm curious about a legal issue, I research it. If the results are unclear, I'll seak a professional opinion. It is rare that this is necessary, since precedents and clarifications are almost always available.

[+wiseye]

I agree with SBell on this, When I need a lawyer to go caching, then the heck with it all. I can manage to stay out of trouble without the extra advice, thank you,

[+carleenp]

I think that many of the legal questions I have seen over the years that involve caching tend to fall into one of two categories: Either (1) they have pretty easy answers that a layperson can find with a little effort, or (2) they are so untested that there is no clear legal answer.

 

I also think that true legal issues are unlikely to arise often, and when/if they do, then personalized legal services will likely be needed, not just a generic answer to a hypothetical question.

 

Also, legal research is a time consuming endeavour. Hence it would be expensive to pay an attorney to answer your questions. How many people really wonder about this stuff to the point where they will pay hundreds of dollars for each answer?

 

Based on that, my personal opinion is that I don't think a fund to pay for general legal advice is a good idea. I think that for most people it would be a waste of money.

[+TrailGators]

I think that many of the legal questions I have seen over the years that involve caching tend to fall into one of two categories: Either (1) they have pretty easy answers that a layperson can find with a little effort, or (2) they are so untested that there is no clear legal answer.

 

I also think that true legal issues are unlikely to arise often, and when/if they do, then personalized legal services will likely be needed, not just a generic answer to a hypothetical question.

 

Also, legal research is a time consuming endeavour. Hence it would be expensive to pay an attorney to answer your questions. How many people really wonder about this stuff to the point where they will pay hundreds of dollars for each answer?

 

Based on that, my personal opinion is that I don't think a fund to pay for general legal advice is a good idea. I think that for most people it would be a waste of money.

 

I agree! Plus we have some very good guidelines. So just follow them!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I think that many of the legal questions I have seen over the years that involve caching tend to fall into one of two categories: Either (1) they have pretty easy answers that a layperson can find with a little effort, or (2) they are so untested that there is no clear legal answer.

 

I also think that true legal issues are unlikely to arise often, and when/if they do, then personalized legal services will likely be needed, not just a generic answer to a hypothetical question.

 

Also, legal research is a time consuming endeavour. Hence it would be expensive to pay an attorney to answer your questions. How many people really wonder about this stuff to the point where they will pay hundreds of dollars for each answer?

 

Based on that, my personal opinion is that I don't think a fund to pay for general legal advice is a good idea. I think that for most people it would be a waste of money.

Carleen, I agree! Very good points!

[+Woodlit]

I agree with SBell on this, When I need a lawyer to go caching, then the heck with it all. I can manage to stay out of trouble without the extra advice, thank you,

 

I'm with him.

[+DocDiTTo]

Why would we need legal advice in the first place?

 

I find myself agreeing with SBell too. Are there any pigs flying today?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

OK, thanks all!

 

I guess the 35 posts and 650 views (and countng) in the 'Liability Concerns' thread don't need an expert's answer!

 

Let's all work with lay understandings of the law and hope for the best!

 

Ed

[Not So Lost Puppies]

I also wonder what sort of legal concerns you think there are?

 

cache placment concerns?? Get Permission. pretty straight forward.

 

cache hunting? know where you are, don't trespass, if you aren't sure about permission, ask or don't do that cache. You are responsible for your actions, regardless of what anyone told you. public access/trespass laws vary to much for any ad-hoc national/international group to give any adequate advice beyond "don't trespass"

 

Injury? no different than if you got injured just walking.

 

that seems to be about it, unless you are concerned about coming across a dead body and becoming a suspect... (Serial Finder stories from todays cacher) but that seems to be beyond the scope of any general advice network.

[+Moose Mob]

Has any thought about a geocacher's insurance policy instead of a legal fund?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I also wonder what sort of legal concerns you think there are?

 

cache placment concerns?? Get Permission. pretty straight forward.

 

cache hunting? know where you are, don't trespass, if you aren't sure about permission, ask or don't do that cache. You are responsible for your actions, regardless of what anyone told you. public access/trespass laws vary to much for any ad-hoc national/international group to give any adequate advice beyond "don't trespass"

 

Injury? no different than if you got injured just walking.

 

that seems to be about it, unless you are concerned about coming across a dead body and becoming a suspect... (Serial Finder stories from todays cacher) but that seems to be beyond the scope of any general advice network.

 

I don't know if I was unclear or you didn't read my post, but the question was sparked by a thread entitled "Liability Concerns", and liability is a question often asked about. Seemed to me we ought to try to find some answers to that kind of question!

[+ScoutingWV]

OK, thanks all!

 

I guess the 35 posts and 650 views (and countng) in the 'Liability Concerns' thread don't need an expert's answer!

 

Let's all work with lay understandings of the law and hope for the best!

 

Ed

 

Sounds like you already have a thread to explore this. Even after reading it, I'm still not sure if there's anything over there except several "what if?" scenarios.

 

Personally, I'll keep playing by the rules and get my legal advice from my attorney and not a geocaching forum.

 

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Has any thought about a geocacher's insurance policy instead of a legal fund?

 

Excellent idea!

 

But, we have to know what risks we are exposed to before we can insure against them.

 

That's where the need for expert advice comes in.

 

Thanks!

Ed

[Not So Lost Puppies]

OK, thanks all!

 

I guess the 35 posts and 650 views (and countng) in the 'Liability Concerns' thread don't need an expert's answer!

 

Let's all work with lay understandings of the law and hope for the best!

 

Ed

 

Sounds like you already have a thread to explore this. Even after reading it, I'm still not sure if there's anything over there except several "what if?" scenarios.

 

Personally, I'll keep playing by the rules and get my legal advice from my attorney and not a geocaching forum.

 

 

And again... every area is going to have their own laws regarding such issues, and the response from any general legal advice group will be for you to consult a local attorney. a lawyer in AL is not going to have much information regarding any sort of liability issues in another state, and therefore would NOT provide any legal advice outside of their own area of knowledge.

[+sbell111]

I don't know if I was unclear or you didn't read my post, but the question was sparked by a thread entitled "Liability Concerns", and liability is a question often asked about. Seemed to me we ought to try to find some answers to that kind of question!

The issue of liability has come up in many threads over the years. It has been explored in each one.

[uperdooper]

I think that many of the legal questions I have seen over the years that involve caching tend to fall into one of two categories: Either (1) they have pretty easy answers that a layperson can find with a little effort, or (2) they are so untested that there is no clear legal answer.

 

I also think that true legal issues are unlikely to arise often, and when/if they do, then personalized legal services will likely be needed, not just a generic answer to a hypothetical question.

 

Also, legal research is a time consuming endeavour. Hence it would be expensive to pay an attorney to answer your questions. How many people really wonder about this stuff to the point where they will pay hundreds of dollars for each answer?

 

Based on that, my personal opinion is that I don't think a fund to pay for general legal advice is a good idea. I think that for most people it would be a waste of money.

great advice!

 

you da man, carleen!!!

[+Recdiver]

Personally I try to shun lawyers whenever possible.

And as for as the OP question - No I wouldn't pay for this.

 

Just out of curiosity...would you make those in Louisiana set up their own fund cuz don't they do things differently in that state?

[+StarBrand]

I wouldn't pay.

 

I think many of the "issues" that come up in Geocaching are so unique to a given situation that it would be difficult to apply boradly anywhere else.

[+wimseyguy]

I come from a whole fam damily of lawyers, yet if I need an answer for an issue that faces me here in NC concerning my personal or business life, I contact someone I know locally, not the ones I know and love 600 miles away in another state. No way would I consider any legal advice worthy from an online forum!

And I believe almost everything that I read in these forums too!

 

(Three sentences, one paragraph. That should please 9key. )

[+Prime Suspect]

Has any thought about a geocacher's insurance policy instead of a legal fund?

Or just get a shirt that says "Please Sue Me".

[+TrailGators]

Has any thought about a geocacher's insurance policy instead of a legal fund?

Or just get a shirt that says "Please Sue Me".

Reminds me of a Gary Larson cartoon...

[+Quest Master]

I have a canoeing guide that has a little blub (a few paragraphs) in it about "Canoeing and the Law". It explains about navigable and unnavigable streams and what is and isn't private property relating to each. In my state, you are within your rights to use navigable streams and the riverbanks to the up to the high water mark. This is good stuff to know if you're canoeing. It would be nice if we had something like this for geocaching beyond a few disorganized forum threads with a lot of input from unqualified persons.

 

I think it would be helpful if a few qualified people (lawyers) got together and created something for us to reference for informed guidance. These persons could remain anonymous (and I'm guessing that they probably would for a whole bunch of lawyer reasons) and they could include as many caveats and disclaimers as necessary to make people understand that this something is not a substitute for legal advice. I think that it would mostly serve to define terms and explain laws as they might apply to geocaching. It appears that this something would have to be done for nothing because I'm not seeing that anybody would be willing to pay. I'd still like to see it happen, though, and there must be somewhere on this website that they could put it.

[+BlueDeuce]

ah, not legal advice but good enough to be legal advice.

 

Crazy talk.

[+carleenp]

In general, legal questions are dependent on the statutes and case law in each jurisdiction. So the law may be different on any given topic in any given state. Further, many legal questions are fact dependent and can have different answers based on differing sets of facts.

 

The upshot is that it can be very difficult for an attorney to step in and correctly answer hypothetical questions without quite a bit of time and effort on the attorney's part. Besides having to research the statutory and case law for multiple jurisdictions, there might not be a clear answer because of a lack of on point decisions. The application of recreational liability acts are one of those untested topics that can differ from state to state. I doubt any attorneys are keen to jump in an figure out the law in all states on that.

 

Perhaps in some areas an attorney might volunteer to provide some general information based on their individual state laws. But even then, many attorneys limit their free legal work to issues of more social importance than people's everyday hobbies. Others, such as myself, are not allowed by their employment to provide outside legal services of any kind. I suppose the place to look though would be within local organizations for people able and willing to do a bit of localized free research.

[+BlueDeuce]

In general, legal questions are dependent on the statutes and case law in each jurisdiction. So the law may be different on any given topic in any given state. Further, many legal questions are fact dependent and can have different answers based on differing sets of facts.

 

The upshot is that it can be very difficult for an attorney to step in and correctly answer hypothetical questions without quite a bit of time and effort on the attorney's part. Besides having to research the statutory and case law for multiple jurisdictions, there might not be a clear answer because of a lack of on point decisions. The application of recreational liability acts are one of those untested topics that can differ from state to state. I doubt any attorneys are keen to jump in an figure out the law in all states on that.

 

Perhaps in some areas an attorney might volunteer to provide some general information based on their individual state laws. But even then, many attorneys limit their free legal work to issues of more social importance than people's everyday hobbies. Others, such as myself, are not allowed by their employment to provide outside legal services of any kind. I suppose the place to look though would be within local organizations for people able and willing to do a bit of localized free research.

 

not crazy talk.

[+carleenp]

By the way, law librarians are generally very friendly and helpful. I have seen many give good crash courses in legal research. There are also many quality legal research manuals available.

 

People can learn quite a bit by researching their own legal questions. I don't recommend self help if getting legal advice is critical (e.g. you are suing or being sued). But for issues of general curiosity, I highly recommend a field trip to the law library.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

Another point: for the size of this outdoor adventure sport and the number of people who are placing and hunting caches on a daily basis, it is my observation that we see only a relatively extremely tiny number of legal issues emerge, and rather, what seems to emerge far more often is the issue of land manager relations, which does not require an attorney, but rather requires patience, tact, good communication ability and people skills.

 

Well said!

[+Bill & Tammy]

I don't know, but in the future to be on the safe side I will be having my attorney accompany me on all future caching expeditions:

 

"Counselor, will I incur any potential liability in approaching and inspecting this cache?"

 

Wonder what his fees will be?

[+expedition101]

I'm usually just a lurker here, but since I'm an attorney who specializes in insurance coverage, I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

The OP's idea would never work because geocaching.com is not an organization, it's just a website-based community. No lawyer would provide legal advice to such an open-ended group; you don't even have to be a premium member to read the forums. Often, a non-profit association which exists as a legal entity will ask members who are lawyers to work on legal projects; I have done that for a local hiking group. In those cases, the advice is provided to the association itself (and its officers), and not to the individual members. It is never the type of advice that can be published for the members' use. I can't imagine that any lawyer would agree to be "on retainer" to answer individual cachers' questions. A lawyer's own malpractice policy would prohibit him/her from giving advice to any individual who is not a real client (New York, for example, requires formal retention agreements naming the client).

 

As for the suggestion that a group of lawyers get together and assemble something that falls short of formal legal advice, this is also not likely to happen because of liability concerns. I believe that any lawyer who would agree to this suggestion, or any lawyer who would give advice anonymously, is not likely to give trustworthy advice.

 

With respect to the comment about a "geocacher's insurance policy," I'm not sure what this means. Who is going to pay the premium? Once again, no insurance company is going to issue a policy to an open-ended group. Geocaching.com cannot purchase a policy that will cover individual geocachers. A local non-profit group might, but there are bound to be many restrictions and it might not make economic sense.

 

If you really have a pressing legal issue related to proposed geocaching activities, your best bet is to join a local geocaching organization and ask them if they will sponsor the activity. At the very least, they are likely to have insurance in case everyone guesses wrong.

[+ScoutingWV]

I'm usually just a lurker here, but since I'm an attorney who specializes in insurance coverage, I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

The OP's idea would never work because geocaching.com is not an organization, it's just a website-based community. No lawyer would provide legal advice to such an open-ended group; you don't even have to be a premium member to read the forums. Often, a non-profit association which exists as a legal entity will ask members who are lawyers to work on legal projects; I have done that for a local hiking group. In those cases, the advice is provided to the association itself (and its officers), and not to the individual members. It is never the type of advice that can be published for the members' use. I can't imagine that any lawyer would agree to be "on retainer" to answer individual cachers' questions. A lawyer's own malpractice policy would prohibit him/her from giving advice to any individual who is not a real client (New York, for example, requires formal retention agreements naming the client).

 

As for the suggestion that a group of lawyers get together and assemble something that falls short of formal legal advice, this is also not likely to happen because of liability concerns. I believe that any lawyer who would agree to this suggestion, or any lawyer who would give advice anonymously, is not likely to give trustworthy advice.

 

With respect to the comment about a "geocacher's insurance policy," I'm not sure what this means. Who is going to pay the premium? Once again, no insurance company is going to issue a policy to an open-ended group. Geocaching.com cannot purchase a policy that will cover individual geocachers. A local non-profit group might, but there are bound to be many restrictions and it might not make economic sense.

 

If you really have a pressing legal issue related to proposed geocaching activities, your best bet is to join a local geocaching organization and ask them if they will sponsor the activity. At the very least, they are likely to have insurance in case everyone guesses wrong.

 

I couldn't agree more. I also still do not understand the reason for this topic in the first place. What has happened in such a volume as to make this something to be considered? Has someone been wronged or injured or is this another case where people who don't have a concern or problem are being told that they should?

 

Sure my grammar in that sentence was poor, but that's why I married a lawyer and didn't become one.

[+Criminal]

Here's my Lawyer:

[+Wayfinders]

In most cases where you would need an attorney, it is because you got caught doing something of an illegal or immoral nature.

It is not my advice not to partake in some of these activities....

My advice is not to get caught.

[+Renegade Knight]

I’m also curious if legal support is necessary for American geocachers.

 

Geocaching is an international “game” and I would consider it unfair to charge local legal support to the international community.

 

Zilvervloot.

 

The right way to start breaking it is that the hosting site pays for legal fee's for issues related to hosting the activty and issues that impact the larger activity.

 

County sub groups would in turn host the local expertise needed.

[+Renegade Knight]

In most cases where you would need an attorney, it is because you got caught doing something of an illegal or immoral nature.

....

The one charge I know was filed and accepted was "placing debris on state property". You don't even need to have done something illegal. Just close enough to make it stick.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Would you pay into a fund over and above Groundspeak Premium Membership that would enable geocachers to submit questions to and get advice from qualified attorneys on the issues we encounter in geocaching?

 

How would such an operation get underway?...

Such a fund should be built into the membership price. However keeping attorneys on retainer or such on behalf of members is a responsiblity that should only be assumed by a member owned organization.

 

An organization created to host such a responsiblity would fail if that's all it did. Until AFTER there was a massive problem that rallied the troops.

[+Wayfinders]

In most cases where you would need an attorney, it is because you got caught doing something of an illegal or immoral nature.

....

The one charge I know was filed and accepted was "placing debris on state property". You don't even need to have done something illegal. Just close enough to make it stick.

 

My post was tongue-in-cheek (which many are) but you raise a good point.

If ever such a charge was brought upon me I'd be compelled to wander out to that park with a camcorder and film every litterbug around. Every McD's wrapper thrown, every cigarette butt tossed......and insist that the accusing officer cite these people as well. He / She would be overrun with paperwork.

And getting charged for something like that just doesn't make sense.....99 percent of the cachers I know would gladly remove the hide and apologize.....it's doubtful you'd get the same actions from the litterbugs.

[+Renegade Knight]

...And getting charged for something like that just doesn't make sense.....99 percent of the cachers I know would gladly remove the hide and apologize.....it's doubtful you'd get the same actions from the litterbugs.

 

I saw the TIC part and...it's better advice than you know.

 

You are right the charge doesn't make sence. Alas the Sheriff of that county (Rainbow Bridge was the location of the incident) chose to make a point. That was the best they could come up with, and the cacher chose not to fight the charge. The real irony was that if the cache was submitted for review it likely would have been turned down. This cache never made it to a listing.

 

If they had chosen to fight I would have sent them $100 just to help with the fee's because the precidents we are gonig to have to beat down later are happening now in a thousand small actions.

[+sbell111]

You can send me $100 if it would make you feel better.

[+The Leprechauns]

If sbell111 were to post here, he would likely threaten to hide a PVC pipe under a bridge unless RK sent him $100. 'Cause he's an extortionist. Geocaching is just his hobby.

[+Ambrosia]

...And getting charged for something like that just doesn't make sense.....99 percent of the cachers I know would gladly remove the hide and apologize.....it's doubtful you'd get the same actions from the litterbugs.

 

I saw the TIC part and...it's better advice than you know.

 

You are right the charge doesn't make sence. Alas the Sheriff of that county (Rainbow Bridge was the location of the incident) chose to make a point. That was the best they could come up with, and the cacher chose not to fight the charge. The real irony was that if the cache was submitted for review it likely would have been turned down. This cache never made it to a listing.

 

If they had chosen to fight I would have sent them $100 just to help with the fee's because the precidents we are gonig to have to beat down later are happening now in a thousand small actions.

The problem with geocaches is that the people who placed them can be tracked down fairly easily. Not so with random litterbugs.

[muttz]

When I asked the question in the other post I wasn't expecting the response it received. The original question was just asking if anyone had ever been sued because of injury sustained during geocaching. I think that maybe many of us would like some sort of security as far as the liability concerns, but none is forthcoming due to many reasons alluded to in the replies. The big one being all of the jurisdicitons involved and their varied legislation that may even remotely apply to the activity of geocaching.

 

The UK thread about the one geocacher being sued for a cacher being injured while hunting a cache that was placed by the defendant is an eye-opener even though the suit eventually ceased to be pursued. The person that placed the cache had begun a defense which is obvious in the posters own words HERE.

 

I beleive that the warnings that we have on everything from plastic bags to coffee cup lids is due to litigation or the threat of, not really because the warning is necessary for the person of average intelligence. It seems that Geocaching doesn't have any, or any widely known, legal precedents yet. Once those begin to be established then the landscape of the sport will change.

 

I think all of this talk may be the the beginning of a proactive stance concerning the liabiliy and legal issues that we face as participants. Groundspeak may be able help us with information to support us in the event of a claim, but they cannot defend us to any extent. This is where each of us is alone as participants in this sport. We have community here, community at events, community sometimes when out caching, but if something goes wrong we are only going to get well wishes. Read this for an example.

 

Maybe an attorney could just outline some ideas to consider for a more proactive stance against these issues instead. Something that we can work with on the International, U.S. Federal, and local levels. See how big a scope of project that it would be? Still, we have to start somewhere. Preferably before a major lawsuit.

 

I am not an attorney or even a legal expert. I am an expert on Pumpkin Bread. Use more cinnamon. tons of raisins, and walnuts!

[+Woodlit]

>snip<

Personally I try to shun lawyers whenever possible.

And as for as the OP question - No I wouldn't pay for this.

>snip<

 

The taxman, lawyers, and the devil share the same address. Atleast thats whay my uncles says. I even think there is a song that says that in it

[+ScoutingWV]

<snip>

I beleive that the warnings that we have on everything from plastic bags to coffee cup lids is due to litigation or the threat of, not really because the warning is necessary for the person of average intelligence. It seems that Geocaching doesn't have any, or any widely known, legal precedents yet. Once those begin to be established then the landscape of the sport will change.

 

I think all of this talk may be the the beginning of a proactive stance concerning the liabiliy and legal issues that we face as participants. Groundspeak may be able help us with information to support us in the event of a claim, but they cannot defend us to any extent. This is where each of us is alone as participants in this sport. We have community here, community at events, community sometimes when out caching, but if something goes wrong we are only going to get well wishes. Read this for an example.

<snip>

 

First - this ain't no sport - it's just a game. If it's a sport, someone needs to show me the referee.

 

Second - HOLY CRAP! Why should we expect Groundspeak to protect us from ourselves? Not every person can participate in every game (I can't run fast enough to be on a track team). But if a person is too stupid or ill-equipped to find a cache they should stay home and not try to establish their retirement fund through a lawsuit.

 

Third - this discussion alone is enough to make me sell my GPS.

 

I guess nothing is idiot-proof to a sufficiently resourceful idiot.

[Clan Riffster]

Ed, I get slimy enough wading through bogs and reaching under dumpsters. I don't need to associate with lawyers.

 

Back on topic: Carleen nailed the crux of this issue; Legal jurisdiction. Here in the U.S., criminal and civil laws vary widely from state to state and even from district to district. Your proposed legal group would need competent representation from each legal district in each state, just to be able to form a valid response to queries. Take this monster outside the U.S. and the problem grows exponentially. Geocaching is way too small a game to afford such a beast.

[muttz]

Hey Neighbor,

 

How's it going down in W.V.?

 

 

First - this ain't no sport - it's just a game. If it's a sport, someone needs to show me the referee.

 

You know, I was going to say game until I got to thinking about how we register to look up caches to find, we have rules and guidelines, we have reviewers for placement of caches, and lots of subscribers are listed as a "Team." It also has a competition element for finding the most caches, or the most difficult, or the most by geographic region or regions. That's why I said sport instead of game. It at least has the making of a sport. Hey we're even international!

 

Second - HOLY CRAP! Why should we expect Groundspeak to protect us from ourselves? Not every person can participate in every game (I can't run fast enough to be on a track team). But if a person is too stupid or ill-equipped to find a cache they should stay home and not try to establish their retirement fund through a lawsuit.

 

I wasn't saying I wanted them to protect us, I was saying how that they can't protect us if a situation should come up. 99.9% of this game or sport is nothing but fun, I just don't want that other fraction of a percent to happen to me if I place caches.

 

Third - this discussion alone is enough to make me sell my GPS.

 

I realize that the topic can easily put anyone off. Me too! That's why I was participating in the discussion now instead of after the fact. I apologize if I opened a can of stinky worms. That was never my intent at all. My intent was to be a little proactive (Not the acne stuff sold on TV) for us to be able to protect ourselves and not to ever expect Groundspeak to be able to do it for us.

 

P.S. - How much you want for your GPS? JUST KIDDING!