Its not about the numbers?

[+OXCACHER]

Interesting discussions crop up over numbers runs and what has been dubbed "Cache Machines" however, the urban micro invasion created a new way of caching, the cache run.

 

I like doing these runs every now and then, but it isn't the only way I cache.

 

Now a group of cachers started a "Quality Cache" database (TC), but guess what their number one topic is on their forums... Their scoring system. Hmmm a numbers problem, there goes the neighborhood.

 

The cache runs are difficult to set up. they involve a differnt type of challenge than a hike. Both have merits that make them rewarding.

 

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

Sincere Question

 

Ron

Tales From The Surface

[+Woodlit]

Nothing. If you have the time for it, go for it.

My cache runs only consist of two or three, but if I had more time i'd add to the list.

[+OXCACHER]

Nothing. If you have the time for it, go for it.

My cache runs only consist of two or three, but if I had more time i'd add to the list.

 

We don't always have the time, but when we do and friends are available, it is a lot of fun.

 

My question really isn't a taunt, it is to discover why this is frowned upon and discouraged among some of the community.

[+BlueDeuce]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

Just make sure everybody present signs the logbook.

[+OXCACHER]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

Just make sure everybody present signs the logbook.

 

I agree 100%

 

When we play this way...

 

We CITO

 

We Huckle Buckle, Everyone has a chance to find the cache. Not just one cacher finding and six logging.

 

We all SIGN the log.

 

Try to be sensative to the environment since we are in a group and traffic is increased.

[+TrailGators]

My question really isn't a taunt, it is to discover why this is frowned upon and discouraged among some of the community.

I have two knocks against numbers caching:

1) I think it has created an overabundance of banal caches. IMHO before there was numbers mania the cache quality out here was a lot better.

2) It also bothers me when people feel bad about only having so many finds. I hear it all the time. I wish people wouldn't feel this way. They say they don't but I know that they really do...

[+BlueDeuce]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

Just make sure everybody present signs the logbook.

 

I agree 100%

 

When we play this way...

 

We CITO

 

We Huckle Buckle, Everyone has a chance to find the cache. Not just one cacher finding and six logging.

 

We all SIGN the log.

 

Try to be sensative to the environment since we are in a group and traffic is increased.

 

Sounds like you aren't going for the all time record.

 

In that case, enjoy the trip.

[+budd-rdc]

Nothing. If you have the time for it, go for it.

My cache runs only consist of two or three, but if I had more time i'd add to the list.

 

We don't always have the time, but when we do and friends are available, it is a lot of fun.

 

My question really isn't a taunt, it is to discover why this is frowned upon and discouraged among some of the community.

The keyword is competitive element. The frowning and discouragement are based on that.

 

People who dismiss and ignore the competitiveness of this game (or anything in life) are burying their heads in the sand. It exists. It's human nature. One can choose to ignore it, of course, but many don't. A person who announces his cache run "achievements" is competing, even if it's against himself. There's nothing wrong with that, but by making it public, it is subject to scrutiny by others (and the "community"). If he wants to avoid the scrutiny, don't say "#5 out of 30" in the logs.

 

Cachers in my area will occasionally announce how many caches they've found after a cache run. Some owners will complain that the logs were cut and paste, since that is not fun for them. Otherwise, as long as log books are signed, caches are rehidden reasonably, etc., we don't frown upon the practice.

[+OXCACHER]

My question really isn't a taunt, it is to discover why this is frowned upon and discouraged among some of the community.

I have two knocks against numbers caching:

1) I think it has created an overabundance of banal caches. IMHO before there was numbers mania the cache quality out here was a lot better.

2) It also bothers me when people feel bad about only having so many finds. I hear it all the time. I wish people wouldn't feel this way. They say they don't but I know that they really do...

 

#1 I here this from both sides of the argument and I see how cache runs will increase the number of lame caches. I can not disagree with this statement however, we as a family started caching under the name fantastic_4 in 2004. We saw the micro invasion over the past couple of years which gave us the incentive to do the cache runs. Might be the chicken and egg theory at work, hard to say. I can see your point though if the community supports the cache runs, it encourages the micro spew placement.

 

#2 I hear this alot also and I agree with you. I don't care how many caches you have or don't have, the cache runs we go on are for fun. the extra smileys are just a bonus.

 

Thanks Trailgators

[+OXCACHER]

 

Sounds like you aren't going for the all time record.

 

In that case, enjoy the trip.

 

The all time record appears to be debatable, LOL

 

Here is an interesting thought...

 

Why doesn't the community set the standard for what is considered a cache run.

 

You have to start at an event

You have to have a percentage of multis

You have to have a percentage of puzzles

etc...

 

Would this satisfy the competitive nature of the type A personality and discourage the placement of lame caches for the sole purpose of cache runs? Food for thought...

Edited December 17, 2006 by TalesFromTheSurface

[+BlueDeuce]

 

Sounds like you aren't going for the all time record.

 

In that case, enjoy the trip.

 

The all time record appears to be debatable, LOL

 

No appearance, very debatable.

 

But hey, if you just want to go for a bunch, knock yourself out.

[+macatac1961]

 

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

DNF's... that's my biggest issue with cache runs.

[+Confucius' Cat]

1) I think it has created an overabundance of banal caches. IMHO before there was numbers mania the cache quality out here was a lot better.

2) It also bothers me when people feel bad about only having so many finds. I hear it all the time. I wish people wouldn't feel this way. They say they don't but I know that they really do...

1> While I agree that many caches certainly appear to have no redeeming value other than a smiley online, I doubt that these "lame caches" are deliberately placed for the purposes of cache runs. But the fact that they are placed just so people can get easy finds makes them conducive to cache runs.

 

I don't think cache runs should bear much of the responsibility for the "micro spew".

 

2> As a corrolary to your theory, I think it is natural for people to look at cachers with high numbers and expect them to be somewhat expert in the game. A newbie might naturally want to learn their "secrets", which in many cases are probably just that they pick out the easiest caches and peak their numbers. These people could pass on the idea that simpler caches are the best thing going or they might be pretty much useless to the newbie looking for advice on the tougher caches. But still they are the "experts".

 

I have to wonder how many people really DO feel inferior to the "numbers hos". I am not sure I totally accept your premise.

 

The keyword is competitive element. The frowning and discouragement are based on that.

 

People who dismiss and ignore the competitiveness of this game (or anything in life) are burying their heads in the sand. It exists. It's human nature.

Yes. Very typical of our modern society. Everyone has to "win".

 

So how ironic, here we have a game where, if you just play it "normally", everyone wins, but some have to make it competitive, and then people complain that there are "losers" and it is unfair. How sad.

 

Here is an interesting thought...

 

Why doesn't the community set the standard for what is considered a cache run.

 

You have to start at an event

You have to have a percentage of multis

You have to have a percentage of puzzles

etc...

 

Would this satisfy the competitive nature of the type A personality and discourage the placement of lame caches for the sole purpose of cache runs? Food for thought...

No.

The competitive people would continue to play by their own rules because everyone would not agree on rules and they could not be enforced anyway. Also "Johnny come lately" rules would effectively negate the records of the current "winners". Since their "records" were set without the rules, they would have to start over- and caches already found could not realistically be counted even if found again on the next "run"

 

The only way a fair and organized run can be set up is with caches placed specifically for the run. The event organizer sets them up , hands out the papers to the participants and *GO!*.

 

...................

As far as the OP question, nothing wrong with a cache run as long as the run uses existing caches or caches placed just for the run (and consequently inherently lame) aren't listed on the site as normal caches.

[Clan Riffster]

I haven't done any group numbers runs, so I'm probably not the best person to address this issue. Even so, I'll toss my $0.02 in. Geocaching as I do it, meets a certain need for me. I get my "Fix", as it were, strolling amiably through pine flats, cypress swamps and bay heads, looking for the next ammo can. It seems like a group numbers run would satisfy an entirely different itch, that is, the need to socialize. I think, with the right group dynamics, it could be a blast.

[+Isonzo Karst]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

I'm not going to try to sway your opinion. I see nothing wrong with it.

 

I hear people make the numbers running=lame micro placements argument, but my experience mostly doesn't bear that out. I started reviewing about a year ago and was blown away by the number of caches that say some form of, "this is our first hide"...any many many of them are easy to access micros. They're being placed by hiders who have never "run numbers". They're just easy and close to home, because that's what's not intimidating to place. Home is an urban area, because that's where people are.

 

Personally I like to run numbers with 4 or 5 people, no more than will fit in a single vehicle. Any more than that gets cumbersome, slow and hard to avoid damage to the cache integrity.

[+OXCACHER]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

I'm not going to try to sway your opinion. I see nothing wrong with it.

 

I hear people make the numbers running=lame micro placements argument, but my experience mostly doesn't bear that out. I started reviewing about a year ago and was blown away by the number of caches that say some form of, "this is our first hide"...any many many of them are easy to access micros. They're being placed by hiders who have never "run numbers". They're just easy and close to home, because that's what's not intimidating to place. Home is an urban area, because that's where people are.

 

Personally I like to run numbers with 4 or 5 people, no more than will fit in a single vehicle. Any more than that gets cumbersome, slow and hard to avoid damage to the cache integrity.

 

Well said. I believe you are correct about cachers placing their first caches, I did the same thing.

 

Now that being said, I also see new cachers who have found their first lightpole skirt lifting hide and think it is just amazing that anyone would think of placing a geocache there. I must admit, when I found my first lightpole skirt hide, I thought it was clever. I don't dare tell them how quickly it becomes less interesting to find a geocache under a lightpole skirt.

 

There is something here for everyone and I respect that.

[+TrailGators]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

I'm not going to try to sway your opinion. I see nothing wrong with it.

 

I hear people make the numbers running=lame micro placements argument, but my experience mostly doesn't bear that out. I started reviewing about a year ago and was blown away by the number of caches that say some form of, "this is our first hide"...any many many of them are easy to access micros. They're being placed by hiders who have never "run numbers". They're just easy and close to home, because that's what's not intimidating to place. Home is an urban area, because that's where people are.

 

Personally I like to run numbers with 4 or 5 people, no more than will fit in a single vehicle. Any more than that gets cumbersome, slow and hard to avoid damage to the cache integrity.

 

Well said. I believe you are correct about cachers placing their first caches, I did the same thing.

 

Now that being said, I also see new cachers who have found their first lightpole skirt lifting hide and think it is just amazing that anyone would think of placing a geocache there. I must admit, when I found my first lightpole skirt hide, I thought it was clever. I don't dare tell them how quickly it becomes less interesting to find a geocache under a lightpole skirt.

 

There is something here for everyone and I respect that.

There are some problems with that premise:

1) New and old cachers rarely placed any lamp post caches 3-4 years ago.

2) LPCs are extremely common these days.

3) LPCs make perfect caches for numbers hounds.

Is this all total coincidence?

Edited December 18, 2006 by TrailGators

[+Renegade Knight]

...My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? ...

 

Nothing, it's a solid variation of a good cache day combined with an event where you get to meet other cachers.

[+Renegade Knight]

...#5 out of 30" in the logs....Some owners will complain that the logs were cut and paste, since that is not fun for them...

 

I have to agree here. When someone posts a log like that it does not add to the fun I get as a cache owner. A good log is nice. A cache run is less likely to generate a good log from the members who will be lucky to remember all the caches they found let alone log them quickly.

 

That's not so much a problem with the cache run as how people log in general. Some of our big numbers finders are proud of their accomplishment but if you added all their logs together the ingredients list on a twinkie would be more interesting reading than "TNLNSL #1 of 20 Today".

[+TrailGators]

...My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? ...

 

Nothing, it's a solid variation of a good cache day combined with an event where you get to meet other cachers.

I guess I never answered this question....I agree with RK. I have had some fun days finding a bunch of caches in a day in a group. It takes a lot of planning and strategy. I found 100 caches in Palm Springs one day! We hiked over 11 miles and off-roaded several more miles in the La Quinta area and I can't recall any of those caches being a lamepost cache! Needless to say that I won't be doing that again. Once was enough!

[+Team Tigger International]

A wise man once told me this "If anyone tells you its not about the numbers .... they are lying"

 

Star

[+TrailGators]

A wise man once told me this "If anyone tells you its not about the numbers .... they are lying"

Star

What if they go to CACA meetings (California Cacheholics Anonymous) and admit that they were Cacheholics? Anyhow, I can honestly say that I do it "now" for the pure enjoyment! Edited December 18, 2006 by TrailGators

[+drat19]

What if they go to CACA meetings (California Cacheholics Anonymous) and admit that they were Cacheholics? Anyhow, I can honestly say that I do it "now" for the pure enjoyment!

CACA! I love that!

[+Super_Nate]

1) I think it has created an overabundance of banal caches. IMHO before there was numbers mania the cache quality out here was a lot better.

2) It also bothers me when people feel bad about only having so many finds. I hear it all the time. I wish people wouldn't feel this way. They say they don't but I know that they really do...

 

#1 - Geocaching gives you the option to chose which type of cache that you feel like doing. If you dislike the overabundance of micros in a particular area and if you are a premium member then you have the power to put 100% of the lame caches on your ignore list and only look for the hiking, rewarding caches. You can also run pocket querys that will only come back with caches that are regular-sized and require hikes because they have higher terrain levels. On the other side of the spectrum, their are those (like myself) who enjoys caching for the numbers and can go and ignore the caches that are going to take all day and only focus on the 30 second finds. Geocaching can appeal to any cacher out there, you just have to open your eyes and I guarantee you will find caches that you enjoy.

 

#2 - If their are people out there who are sad because they only have 50 finds when they are talking to someone who has 5,000....then think of this: For every one cache find log that you issue when you are a "young" cacher....you have passed hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Their are thousands of cache accounts out there right now that have exactally 53 cache finds...If you are one of them and you go out and find two ammo boxes with the family and log them, you have just passed up all those people who had 53. If you don't care about the numbers, then don't slam what I am saying here down because you simply don't understand the number competition. There are some who feel bad about the amount of cache finds they have now, and that is who I am aiming this post to.

[+briansnat]

My question is, and try to sway my opinion, what is wrong with cache runs? I am willing to change my mind, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

 

I have no problems with numbers runs. I personally would rather take 6 hours to find one cache than find 6 caches in an hour, but if people enjoy the opposite, that's their business. Who am I to say they shouldn't? Heck, I may even do one someday.

[+queen_ladybug]

Can I please try to bring my version of logic in here?

 

 

I'm a numbers ho...I will freely admit that. BUT I am only competing with myself and challenging myself to get a certain number of caches in one day, setting a goal for the month, or like now, trying to reach 150 before the year is over. (Maybe my Christmas present will help with that one!! )

 

 

Anyways....I just started this summer. How in the heck can I compete with people that started years ago and have thousands of finds? I can't, so I don't! CacheStats tells me I won't reach 1000 until 2010 going at my current rate. Playing the numbers game can only be fair if the participants started at the same time. With new players joining every day, who has the most finds really doesn't matter. I'm playing this game for myself, not everyone else. I do very much enjoy meeting others, hearing how many finds they have and hearing stories of cache runs of over a hundred a day. My record is only at 13 in one day. I find that to be terrific for me considering I did not have a GPSr yet and I had hubby and 4 kids with me. THAT was a challenge for me! Someone else would either not like it or it would have been a breeze. (I think most were micros that day but at least 5 of them were bigger ones too.)

 

 

I set up some days to find a couple of long hike caches or really difficult ones. Some days I want to see how many I can find in one day. That's my numbers game!

 

 

For those that don't like micros and have micro spew in your area...retaliate and come up with some creative bigger hides. I have a really good mix here and that suits me just fine. I also have about 5 hides planned for the next few weeks and a few are micros and the rest are big ones. My micros are at places that are really fun, but there is no good hiding place for a bigger cache. My only hide out there is small, but I was worried it would get muggled. It has a little bit of room for tradeables and small TB's/geocoins.

[+Super_Nate]

 

Anyways....I just started this summer. How in the heck can I compete with people that started years ago and have thousands of finds? I can't, so I don't! CacheStats tells me I won't reach 1000 until 2010 going at my current rate. Playing the numbers game can only be fair if the participants started at the same time. With new players joining every day, who has the most finds really doesn't matter. I'm playing this game for myself, not everyone else. I do very much enjoy meeting others, hearing how many finds they have and hearing stories of cache runs of over a hundred a day.

 

I don't look at it as a competition, but I do look at it as trying to meet someone elses cache finds in my area so that I can pace myself. You have the different leagues of finders that you follow. The person that I was trying to pass up when I first started caching is not the same as it is now...mainly because that person from 3 years ago is 600 caches behind me. Once you pass someone in finds, then you look to someone else who has a couple hundred more than you do and then try to meet them. I don't look at who started when because their are some people who started at the same time that I did in 2004 who have found 8,000 caches in 6 months where it has taken me 3 years to hit 1,000! It is a playful competition that I have that I RARELY tell other people about. I felt the need to say something when this topic came up. Usually I don't tell other people about my version of the game because their are a lot of people that strongly disagree with that method of playing.....but everyone is entitled to their way of playing.

[Not So Lost Puppies]

We aren't in it for the numbers, not at all. after about 18months we have less than 200 finds. Though we have taken drives out of our way for caching.

Took an extra couple day for a return trip from southwest MO back to WI by way of NE, SD, MN to add those states to our list.

The only times we've felt we HAD to cache was when we played the Quests put on by thecachingplace, and even then it wasn't about the numbers. I don't feel any need to compete with others in any manner for numbers found or placed. I know that we are in the minority in that regard when it comes to posters in the forums. It is just a hobby for us, something we do for enjoyment, usually bringing our dog along for the hikes. We have found some really nice places to hike because of geocaching, some we probably never would have known about otherwise.

 

Thanks to everyone who places caches in those out of way parks!

 

I also agree that everyone is entitled to their own way of playing. If you are in it for the numbers, then go for it, I won't stand in your way. I'll just step aside as you run past

[Backup]

Cache runs are great fun. Much like an Event Cache, only mobile, and more to log.

 

... but then again I also like lamp post hides, micros, urban, surburban, rural, etc.

This past Sunday I did a continous 9 mile hike for 3 caches. Today, I'm going to stop after work and grab a single "drive-up".

 

I'll go miles out of my way to find a benchmark, which are often more fun/hard to find. Your "lame" cache is my "wow, ain't I lucky to find a cache here" cache.

 

I care more about how many caches you placed for me to find, rather then how many you found.

 

I usually cache alone but I look forward to my next cache run with a bunch of great folks.