A Hypothetical Angst Question About Deleted Logs....

[+Snoogans]

This is completely hypothetical.

 

What if someone got wind that a large group of folks were going to hit their puzzle cache and they archived it the night before that group was to attempt it?

 

Said group gets home and promptly gets their logs deleted.

 

I'd like to explore two things by role playing: (answer either or both seriously)

 

#1 Put yourself in their shoes..... If you were in that group of finders, how would you feel about it?

 

#2 Be a devil's advocate...... If you were that cache owner, what would your mindset be for archiving, without first removing, a long running cache the night before said group was to attempt it IF you in fact knew that group was to make an attempt?

 

This is purely hypothetical. Please exercise civility in your role playing.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Snoogans

[+thedeadpirate]

#1 Put yourself in their shoes..... If you were in that group of finders, how would you feel about it?

 

I'd be a little ticked. You didn't say they were cheating or anything. Nothing wrong with a group, IMHO, searching for a cache together whether it is a puzzle or otherwise.

 

#2 Be a devil's advocate...... If you were that cache owner, what would your mindset be for archiving, without first removing, a long running cache the night before said group was to attempt it IF you in fact knew that group was to make an attempt?

 

I personally would not archive it just to keep someone from making a run on it. Seems small minded to me.

[Via Con Ardillos]

I agree with GeoBain. As long as they are not recieveing help from someone who has already done it. they could just be going out with a bunch of buddies. i dont see the harm in that.

[+HoustonControl]

#1 Purely hypothetically -- I was a little peeved, uh, er... I mean... I'd be a little peeved. Especially considering the cache is still in place -- hypothetically...

 

But, it's all small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. There are lots of other caches out there to find.

Edited December 17, 2006 by HoustonControl

[+Kit Fox]

This actually happened Judge Trogdor's Gate

 

This Really Gets Me, In my mind it what's wrong with Cachers.

[+HoustonControl]

On this particular "hypothetical" cache, I had worked on it for a while without getting very far. In a post where I found another of the hiders tough puzzle caches, I made some note to the affect of "how about a hint on XYZ cache". The cache owner then PM'd me the coordinates as a "Happy Belated Birthday" present!

 

Hypothetically.....

[Clan Riffster]

Wow, how bizarre is that?

# 1: Hypothetically, I don't deal well with spite. Not sure what my hypothetical reaction would be, but it probably wouldn't be pretty.

 

# 2: Hypothetically speaking, I'm a self centered (expletive deleted by poster) and do spiteful things on a regular basis. Hypothetically speaking, I go through life with so much self hatred that it paints an ugly picture of the world around me. Hypothetically speaking, I am such a (expletive deleted) that I no longer need a reason for spreading hate and discontent. Unless it's a film canister in a Wally World parking lot. Hypothetically speaking, I have nothing but love for those.

[nobby.nobbs]

life is too short for that amount of grief. if hypothetically someone is that way inclined then smile, walk by and just remember the lovely day you and some friends had. the fact that you couldn't log it shouldn't detract from a day with good company. hypothetically of course

[bogleman]

This is completely hypothetical.

(snip)

#1 Put yourself in their shoes..... If you were in that group of finders, how would you feel about it?

 

#2 Be a devil's advocate...... If you were that cache owner, what would your mindset be for archiving, without first removing, a long running cache the night before said group was to attempt it IF you in fact knew that group was to make an attempt?

#1 - Depends on what I invested and the planning to get the cache, I would be upset but would get over it, keep in mind all I got was a smile and some personal glory.

 

#2 - I invested quite a bit of time and energy on my very first puzzle cache. I completely underestimated the locals and their ability. I did find out that the "code" got out to a few folks and that got me a bit upset, not mad enough to delete the log/archive the cache but I was upset none the less.

 

Now, I personally WANT you to find my hides so how you get there is completely up to you. My most recent puzzle had a rather large group of people (14-15) go together to get their smile - what was fun for me was reading and hearing about the fun they had.

[+briansnat]

I'm dead set against deleting legit found it logs for nearly any reason (other than profainity or otherwise inappropriate text). However, I do question whether finding a puzzle cache if you don't actually solve the puzzle is a legit find.

 

#1 Put yourself in their shoes..... If you were in that group of finders, how would you feel about it?

 

If I was in that group of finders I wouldn't log a find on the cache unless I was closely involved with solving the puzzle. I'd feel cheesy riding in on other's coat tails to grab the find.

 

#2 Be a devil's advocate...... If you were that cache owner, what would your mindset be for archiving, without first removing, a long running cache the night before said group was to attempt it IF you in fact knew that group was to make an attempt?

 

When I place a cache in a place that is physically challenging to reach, I expect anyone who logs it to make the trek to the cache. If someone were to take the cache back to the car so someone who wasn't involved with finding it can sign the log, that would not be a legit find in my eyes.

 

Similarly, if I were to place a mentally challenging cache, I would expect finders to actually meet that challenge in order to log the cache. If I wanted them to simply get the coordinates and walk up to the cache then I wouldn't have taken the trouble to create a puzzle.

 

That said, I think archiving the cache the night before I got wind of a group hunt for the cache would be the coward's way out. I would contact the leader/orgainzer of the group and relate my expectations.

Edited December 17, 2006 by briansnat

[CoyoteRed]

#1 - Probably the only thing I'd do is mark it as found on my personal database, commiserate with my team mates for them not being able to log it, collectively wonder just what in the world was going on in this fellow's mind. Wonder what we did to tick him off.

 

#2 - It's kind of hard to think of why someone would do that unless he doesn't want a large group of players on-site for some reason. Just like a cache machine, a large group could draw unwanted attention or cause too much damage in a short amount of time. Even then, I don't know that simply archiving the cache without removing it would be the right course. We often have to remove caches for events in a local park. We mark the cache as offline and physically remove it. If the owner didn't want a large group of players at the cache site them he should have emailed a couple of them with his desires. If available, he could have meet them there.

 

...but then again, I don't understand why many people do the things they do.

Edited December 17, 2006 by CoyoteRed

[+OHMIKY]

well, I have enough real angst so I am not interested in hypothetical angst - HOWEVER there does not seem to be any real angst here anyway. Of course I'd be a little miffed if someone archived a cache and deleted my find after I had signed the log.

 

As a puzzlecache owner, I can't think of any reason I would be likely to pull a stunt like this even if I had a serious personal animosity toward the group or someone in it - it's just not the way I was brought up to play a game.

[+HoustonControl]

As a puzzlecache owner, I can't think of any reason I would be likely to pull a stunt like this even if I had a serious personal animosity toward the group or someone in it - it's just not the way I was brought up to play a game.

Bingo!

[+welch]

#1 Put yourself in their shoes..... If you were in that group of finders, how would you feel about it?

A little miffed about bad timing, and a little more if the archive was aimed at our group. I'd probably also feel dumb if noone in the group had talked to the owner before hand about a group visit. Not that you need to ask to visit anyones publicly listed cache, but a polite note before hand might have elimnated any problems before hand. If the cache owner was nice, they might even had made a check before group visit to be sure everything is in order.

Its also my personal opinion that the cache owner can delete logs for whatever reason they like, even if dumb or silly... Not that this would make me happy, but I would try to not be overly ticked at them. And if possiable I'd try fix whatever problem they had with my log. If not I'd just forget about it and go look for other caches.

 

#2 Be a devil's advocate...... If you were that cache owner, what would your mindset be for archiving, without first removing, a long running cache the night before said group was to attempt it IF you in fact knew that group was to make an attempt?

 

This is purely hypothetical. Please exercise civility in your role playing.

 

Not that I'd totally agree with these ideas, but possiablities:

 

1. the owner doesn't like groups of people finding this caches, and/or ticked they didn't get notified about this 'cache train' enough to kill the geocache.

2. the owner has the opinion that to claim a find for their puzzle/difficult cache you have to do the work personally, so most of the logs should be deleted. (this doesn't really explain why the cache is archived though, unless they're just tired to trying to get people to do it their way.

[+ePeterso2]

I can't see how anyone can prove in any measurable way that any specific person solved any specific puzzle in the precise manner in which the puzzle writer intended. Most puzzles will succumb to a brute force search for any missing pieces if you can narrow the search space sufficiently ... does that mean that the puzzle wasn't "solved"?

 

And how do you measure the relative contribution in a group of solvers? Suppose you've got a group that consists of someone who's good at word puzzles, another that's good at math, another at trivia, another at logic, etc. And suppose they've got a fellow cacher that goes with them that is a poor puzzle solver but offers to go along for the hike, carry the water and snacks, and is a phenomenal conversationalist and keeps the others focused on the goal instead of trying to outdo each other? Obviously in this hypothetical example, the pack mule didn't technically solve the puzzle ... but his/her actions enabled the others to crack it. I can't imagine how you'd begin to apportion credit for the find among a team like that, and I'd think that the mule deserved just as much solving credit as the rest.

 

All you really know is that someone crossed the finish line (signed the log sheet) with a different pen and/or handwriting style than anyone else who signed the log. And given the relative anonymity of the game, even that's not hard proof.

 

I think the idea of heavy logging requirements enforced by the owner to be kind of silly. I find the more that something seems like police work, the less fun that something is.

 

-eP

 

PS: Unless you happen to be a police officer and really enjoy your work, of course :-)

[+Snoogans]

This has been very enlightening.

 

Folks, thanks so much for all of the objective role playing.

 

I don't care much for complaint threads, and this thread (most of it) proves that hypothetical gentle peer pressure is an option when dealing with certain attitudes in geocaching by highlighting behavior without outing a specific person.

 

Point made. Please continue if you wish and please continue to exercise civility in your responses.

 

Thanks again....

[+Confucius' Cat]

#2 (A)

 

Why do you ask such a question, Snoogie? Obviously some quirk of your personality has led to this horrible disruption of the game that you started and foisted upon the caching community because of your lack of respect and common sense and/or your horribly disgusting logs in the past that this cacher has picked up on.

 

I have read your profile and I see what might have prompted your concern, but we can help you more if you will clearly reference the dispute that has caused you to post this. (everyone knows there is no such thing as hypothetical!)

 

It is obvious you have been a DonK in your logs or else the person who owns the cache wouldn't have archived it when he "saw you coming".

 

If you would just send a personal not to the cache owner in question I'm sure you could work this out.

 

If it is beyond your capabilities to post a message that is not rude and hateful, give us, your forum friends, the information and we will send an approprite email that NO ONE could possibly read as offensive, because we are all SO much better writers than you are.

 

just my 2c (but obviously everyone in the world would agree with me)

 

Edited December 18, 2006 by Confucius' Cat

[+welch]

I can't see how anyone can prove in any measurable way that any specific person solved any specific puzzle in the precise manner in which the puzzle writer intended. Most puzzles will succumb to a brute force search for any missing pieces if you can narrow the search space sufficiently ... does that mean that the puzzle wasn't "solved"?

 

And how do you measure the relative contribution in a group of solvers? Suppose you've got a group that consists of someone who's good at word puzzles, another that's good at math, another at trivia, another at logic, etc. And suppose they've got a fellow cacher that goes with them that is a poor puzzle solver but offers to go along for the hike, carry the water and snacks, and is a phenomenal conversationalist and keeps the others focused on the goal instead of trying to outdo each other? Obviously in this hypothetical example, the pack mule didn't technically solve the puzzle ... but his/her actions enabled the others to crack it. I can't imagine how you'd begin to apportion credit for the find among a team like that, and I'd think that the mule deserved just as much solving credit as the rest.

...

 

If its easy to determine 'solved' and 'contribution' or not, its still hypothetically possiable for someone to try and define it, and further for them to use it in determining a 'find' on their own caches .

[+Snoogans]

#2 (A)

It is obvious you have been a DonK in your logs or else the person who owns the cache wouldn't have archived it when he "saw you coming".

 

 

I've had no hypothetical logs deleted. I actually wasn't IN the hypothetical group in question. I was hypothetically at work. Except for making time for events, (I hosted one for nearly 100 cachers today. ) I haven't actually had time to cache in quite awhile. I guess hypothetical cachin' is all I have until after my wedding.

 

Sorry cache detectives. You won't find anything but a few laughs on my profile.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Snoogans

[+HoustonControl]

BTW, GREAT event today, Snoogs! That makes my 900th find! I would have made 900 yesterday, but one log got deleted....

[+Renegade Knight]

As the owner if I new a large group were going to short circuit the cache experience I intended I'd consider either archiving the cache and protecting the work the folks who did it right and who earned that smilie. OR I'd tweak the cache page and make it very clear that the entire experience (whatever it may be) is the cache and that short ciruiting will not be allowed. Exacly how to accomplish that would depend on the cache. Which I would do would depend on which would make me cringe less. A bunch of crap finds, a bunch of log deletions a buch or argumene over Additinoal logging requirements.

 

As a finder I'd be peeved if I did the work the cache was there and I signed the log and my find was deleted.

 

If there was nothing to find what am i going to say? "Dude, you archived your cache I didn't read the most current PQ, found nothing and want to log it anyway?"

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Something similar went on after GW4 - there was a rather large lot of caches archived. Folks that had found and signed them were pretty peeved, and wanted their legitimately earned smilie... so they logged one of their own caches for each one they had been 'robbed' of. Great angst and travail resulted, even though the cachers had earned the smilies!

 

Frankly, if I cared about numbers and wanted to keep mine 'pure' I would do the same thing! 1 found signed cache = 1 smilie, and if I can't log the cache listing I actually found logging one of my own to keep the find count acurate would seem legit.

 

As far as archiving a cache to spite cachers you don't like... the best thing about geocaching is that anyone can play; the worst thing about geocaching is that anyone can play! In any community you will find a percentage of jerks.

[+ePeterso2]

[+Kabuthunk]

1. (in the team's shoes): I'd be thinking "Man, what a brat. Talk about 'spoiled kid doesn't like how someone plays, so he did the equivilant of taking his ball and going home. Pfft, loser." At which point I would promptly move on and pretend the cache never existed to begin with. I don't keep an "offline" personal log. I might mental-note it should the situation come up to mention it, but that's about it.

 

2. Only reason I could ever see EVER removing a cache right before someone went to find it is if they emailed me beforehand saying "Man, we're SO totally going to trash your geocache, and take a dump in it tomorrow" or something like that. If someone tells me beforehand they're going to deliberately damage the cache container, site, or contents, of COURSE I'll remove it beforehand, and probably just leave it disabled for about 6 months for them to kinda "move along and forget about it" type of thing.