Maybe We Should Start Calling Them Discover Bugs

[+BlueDeuce]

There are 'instructions" posted by Eartha in the how to log thread pinned near the top.

[+trignet]

Quoting elrojo14 in post 37 above: "I don't even like to drop travel bugs off in caches I have already found. When I find a travel bug, I try and take them to new caches to log them in."

 

With so many facets and perspectives of geocaching, its hard to sometimes pick a stand and stick with it.

I too had this perspective when I first started out. Since then, I opened up a TB cache hoping to play on the local airport as a feature. In trying to keep with the travel bug to move perspective, not let it sit too long, I have picked a couple nice caches in the area that get some more frequent visits in order to swap with.

I started it out as a members only and recently opened it up for public use. Until we see more frequent caching up here, its is generally slow compared to other areas. Thats not to say that there isn't a fare share of caching going on, its just generally slower overall. I usually post a note with a Bug drop for the cache.

 

Currently have a couple bugs I would like to move since they've sat a bit too long. MY PROBLEM is I am killing time on here since the wife gets on me when she cannot go with too

She's stuck at W....W.....W.... that word!

[+trignet]

There are 'instructions" posted by Eartha in the how to log thread pinned near the top.

 

We could split hairs all day long, I'm sure.

I had read those too, and are good material for both for and against reasons for my original post.

I think you may agree that the ambiguity of the rules and game are in need of some additional documentation.

I read things on the TOS for the GC.com website about postings and publishings are the property of the poster/publisher--meaning just as you stated: the owner can delete logs and finds.

Eartha's "Primer" or "instructions" as a moderator obviously hold good credit to the legitimacy of the information, but lacking the list of do's and don'ts and why's.

I have a spare TB tag yet to be activated, and will pay better attention to any TOS I have to abide by for my references for the future, hopefully it will lend some better insight.

 

I DO feel a bit bummed out for loosing a legitimate find, not going to do anything aobut it specifically, but would be more interested in helping the sport along whether it be documentation, information, etc.

I will keep on caching along, its great fun when I otherwise lack something else to do.

[+BlueDeuce]

I agree it is unfortunate you lost the log.

 

I'm not trying to split any hairs. Sometimes when I explain certain options people think I support the practice. That's not always the case.

[+Labrador Wild Man]

I had two T/B discovered, one had going missing for more then a year and one that had been left in a cache miles from anywhere in the mountains, the only way they did it was, get this! Save the picture to there hard drive, then zoom in to get the number, the other one was my first I only had one photo and you can see the numbers so I had to white out them. I have 23 T/b so had to check each one so you can not see the tag numbers, I only found one more which I have left due to the photo was take in New Zealand which was very nice, I will have to place a warning about photos with the number not showing.

 

After all that I still do not understand it? if they seen it at a meeting great or seen it at the cache and looked at it great, but the other way I’m not a very happy camper.

 

LWM

[+Eartha]

It's really quite simple regarding the "rules" for travel bugs.

www.geocaching.com gives you the how to's as far as logging grabs, retrieves, placing, marking missing, and basically using the website to track the movement of the trackable items.

 

Cachers purchase the trackables, and decide on where they would like them go and how they would like to see them logged. It's up the owner of the trackable whether or not they want discover logs. They make the individual rules for their own trackables. The discover feature is good in some ways and in other ways there are things people don't like.

Good:

Know your bug is still safe in a cache, but wasn't picked up for some reason or another.

Let's you know your bug is attractive/funny/cute/interesting/amazing/weird/large/small enough for people to want to log it.

Let's you share your own personal trackable with others, while keeping it in your possession.

and so on.....

 

Bad:

The plethora of emails you get when your bug is taken to a large event. (some people might think this is a good thing)

People logging bogus finds because someone posted a photo of the tracking number.

 

Those are the only two minuses I can come up with for the discover logs, but I think the good outweighs the bad. And trackable owners have the option to delete logs that don't meet the goals of their trackable. But if someone does do that, they should stipulate on their trackable's page that they do not want discover logs.

[+BlueDeuce]

Now you know why Eartha is the moderator.

Edited January 9, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[Aushiker]

Good:

Know your bug is still safe in a cache, but wasn't picked up for some reason or another.

Let's you know your bug is attractive/funny/cute/interesting/amazing/weird/large/small enough for people to want to log it.

 

These two I don't understand. What happened before "discover logs"? Did we not do this before?

 

What I don't understand is why we can't use the existing tools to achieve the same things. The existing tools being the log and/or write note. What makes the discover log so much better than these existing tools in these circumstances?

 

To me the only difference appears to be that the discover log gives an icon and adds to the count and thus rewards for giving feedback whereas the other too don't.

 

Maybe I am missing something here.

 

I had an example of this the other day with one of my coins which was in a cache and quite a few folks had gone through without picking it up. This had me wondering if the coin was there so a posted a note asking if the next cacher could check for me. The next cacher kindly did so and posted a note to that effect in his or her log. No discover log was needed, just a nice friendly cacher helping out.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Andrew

[+BlueDeuce]

...

Edited January 9, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[Aushiker]

...

 

Dear BlueDeuce

 

Thanks for editing your post which I received via email.

 

With the greatest respect (it is genuine BTW) I have attempted to participate in this discussion in an appropriate manner and asked my question as a genuine contribution to this discussion.

 

At least seven postings have been made to this thread since I last commented, quite a few of them by you, so once again I don't understand the tone or the rudness of your comments.

 

I didn' reliease that you certain members had a monoply on posting here or on taking a position. My apologies for not knowing that.

 

I will now withdraw from this thread.

 

Regards

Andrew

[+Eartha]

Good:

Know your bug is still safe in a cache, but wasn't picked up for some reason or another.

Let's you know your bug is attractive/funny/cute/interesting/amazing/weird/large/small enough for people to want to log it.

 

These two I don't understand. What happened before "discover logs"? Did we not do this before?

 

Andrew

 

Before discover logs, it was sheer chaos. Too many bugs were taken to events, where so many people wanted to log them. The problem occurred because you had to first pick up then drop off the bug into the event. With all these people writing down the numbers and doing this they were grabbing it from each other or the event, without letting everyone complete their pick ups and drop offs.

What would happen is that the person who actually carried the bug away would leave it in a cache, but days later, people were still picking it up and dropping it off from the event and the bug would end up back in the event. The person who dropped into a cache might not have been watching the event or bug page and would think their job was done. There would either be a mess left behind, or a whole lot of correcting had to be done. So discover logs allow the bug to remain where it is, while people can still get to log them without messing it all up. This is perhaps the best reason for the discover logs. And it is why "discover" exists.

So, now when your attractive/funny/cute/interesting/amazing/weird/large/small gets to an event and everyone wants it, it will sit still long enough for the person, who gets to actually take it with them, log it into the correct cache without having to come back and do it all over. One discover log, versus log it out, log it back in before someone else does and takes it out of your hands. Much better! Don't you think?

So, if someone doesn't want discover logs on their bug page, it's their choice.

 

edit to add: Oh, and if you just wrote a note on the page, you wouldn't get the credit for the bug in your statistics.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Eartha

[+simplyred]

The only complaint I have about discovering TB's, is that people are getting confused and logging discovered instead of retreiving, leading to lots of TB not in caches. And not showing in the hands of. It seems to be happening alot around my area.

[+trignet]

Now you know why Eartha is the moderator.

 

I have read quite a few of Eartha's posts around and think that they are very diplomatic. I personally probably could not do as fine a job. The splitting hairs comment BTW: I can see pleanty of reasoning for both perspectives, I am not trying to push any issues, nor getting huffy about it at all, just trying to clarify "etiquette" and acceptible dos and don'ts in order to be a more acceptible player.

 

The root of it all is my WIFE

SHE enjoys the sport as much as I do. I work from home and been slow lately work wise. She'd skin me alive if I were out playing all day without her.... hence my thoughts are on the sport, and I was looking for creative outlets to pass the time. I am sure many can understand that, right?

 

Its all for the love of the game.

[+Thot]

Bad:

The plethora of emails you get when your bug is taken to a large event. (some people might think this is a good thing)

People logging bogus finds because someone posted a photo of the tracking number.

 

Those are the only two minuses I can come up with for the discover logs . . .

Forgive me for being repetitive but, respectfully, I don’t think those are the only negatives. In fact, I don’t think either is the primary negative.

 

To me the main and major negative is the loss of the incentive for some people to move travel bugs.

 

I’m unable to come up with any reason a person would want to “discover” a travel bug other than to increase their count – pump their numbers. I can see reasons other than count that people “move” travel bugs. For example, they feel like they’re part of helping it reach its goal. But, I can’t imagine that kind of emotional involvement in writing down and logging its number.

 

I’m not opposed to the drive to pump numbers/count. I just want to harness it to move my bugs. It’s clear to me discovery dissipates that drive in a sterile/fruitless/vacant way. People who primarily move bugs to increase count will stop moving them and start discovering them when they see others can “discover” 15 bugs at a bug hotel and beat what they can do in days or weeks of moving them.

 

So, in my opinion, the major negative coming from discovery is the loss of many moves by people whose desire is primarily to pump their numbers.

[+Thot]

So, if someone doesn't want discover logs on their bug page, it's their choice.

 

But, this doesn't solve the main problem -- the person who only wants to discover it doesn't move it.

 

I really don't understand how this would work, anyway. Do you mean by asking on the bug page that people not log discoveries? When I find bugs in caches I normally haven't read the bug's description page. I read the goal attached to the bug, but don't read the description page 'til I get home. So at the time the person writes down the bug number she probably won't know about the request. Now, if she honors your request, all you've achieved is suppressing the log, and the log itself isn't the problem. Also, this may well cause her to have negative feelings toward you, while serving no useful purpose. On the other hand if she says "To heck with him. The rules say I can discover and I'm gona do it." Now, if you delete her log you really create ill will, still without solving the main problem that the bug didn't get moved.

[+trignet]

 

It is intended to be fun for all, and they have implemented "rules" as necessary.

Noone is ever going to have a 100% solution in this world that will make 100% of the people 100% happy.

 

 

Everyone wants to have fun themselves, and if in the spirit of keeping it fun for someone else does something that they believe in that someone else doesn't, and the lack of rules persay, since noone likes rules, because then they try to find a way to bend or break them, and it all causses ill will, and this site was designed for people to have fun, it has some job roles that people have to perform voluntarilly to keep all chaos from breaking loose and running rampant, he says, she says, they all say, whois right, whois wrong, someone has to be right and wrong, but there can't be rules, no way to rules, lets add forums for people to vent frusteration on, that way we can see what rules we have to imply or implement later after it all explodes, but its their toy so they should control that aspect, and we can control this aspect........

 

see where it leads?

 

everyone is supposed to get along with everybody... it just doesn't quite work that way though.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I understand what you are saying Thot...and I can say for myself (and HOPEFULLY most other cachers who move volumes of TBs about) that I do not go out to just discover TBs EVER!! I'm of the same thought as you actually...but there are times when discovering is the most logical (TB not going my way and I can't help it along. I did pick it up, I will still write you a nice note about the TB and whatever, but since I can't help it on it's mission, I'll leave that to someone who can). My discovering your TB may not help you much (more than to let you know it is still safe), but I shouldn't be "punished" so to speak, for not being able to move the TB in the way it wants to go.

 

If I were MADE to only grab a TB, then I suppose ANY TB that I see will get grabbed regardless of mission and then will be sidetracked! THAT is probably the best reason for discovering. A TB hunter who is less than ethical may do this, but I'd rather TRY to keep a bug on mission as much as possible (that doesn't mean that those TBs should be off limits to me). I have made mistakes and I have learned some ins and outs.

 

Someone who is out discovering masses of TBs purely to boost numbers isn't really doing themselves much good as the cache community would see them for what they are doing, so their "accomplishment" will be meaningless to most others (and the only real reason that I can see to hunt TBs is to get on the LaRobley Top 50 Mover's list). My name on that list would mean less to me if I made it in this way...it "cheapens" the accomplishment.

 

My discoveries on my acct are mostly coins from friends' collections! I can't MAKE them give me the coins to move, so I can only do as I do with them...discover! I haven't been discovering near as much these days though, as I now see that this isn't really doing it the "proper" way (I was shown to do this by another friend when I first started out). In reality, I more like the icons on my page than being on the top 50, so I do discover coins that I haven't got the icon for....but I like to at least see that coin first!!

 

We all play the game our way, hopefully SOMEWHAT respecting others as well. We make the game what it is for us and we play accordingly!!

 

I would add that I can't remember any times I discovered TBs other than a VERY FEW instances similar to the example given.

[+Eartha]

Most of the time, most of the people are OK with discover logs. There are a few who don't want it. Just remember that old saying. It's not about the numbers

 

I, for one, have enough to do with this computer, like logging, posting photos, emailing, forums, work, checking the weather, keeping files, reading the news, etc.... that I don't need to take the time to log a bunch of bugs I'm not moving. At an event, I would discover bugs that everyone else wants to take too, only to say I saw it, and it was cool, but let someone else have the joy of moving it. I would not spend my spare free time logging every bug that passes my way, or I'd have no time left for you.

 

As for the wife that wouldn't like it if her husband goes caching without her when work is slow, fine, would she prefer you hung out at the bar, or on the couch like a potato? Send her to me (let her read this), let me explain to her that it's the best clean fun a husband can have without his wife, or with his wife, and kids, and/or with his uncle, grandparents, nephews, nieces, brother-in-law, cousin... and it will keep him fit and trim and around a lot longer!

[+5¢]

First off, I say to each his own. Now onto something I don't quite understand.

 

My discovering your TB may not help you much (more than to let you know it is still safe), but I shouldn't be "punished" so to speak, for not being able to move the TB in the way it wants to go.

 

I read this as I found it I want the stat to move up LaRobley's list.

 

Someone who is out discovering masses of TBs purely to boost numbers isn't really doing themselves much good as the cache community would see them for what they are doing, so their "accomplishment" will be meaningless to most others (and the only real reason that I can see to hunt TBs is to get on the LaRobley Top 50 Mover's list). My name on that list would mean less to me if I made it in this way...it "cheapens" the accomplishment.

 

Where is the magic line between raising your stats and cheapening your accomplishment?

 

My discoveries on my acct are mostly coins from friends' collections! I can't MAKE them give me the coins to move, so I can only do as I do with them...discover!

 

You can look at them and then not log them at all.........that is a legal option.

 

as I now see that this isn't really doing it the "proper" way (I was shown to do this by another friend when I first started out).

 

I don't know that there is a proper way since there are no rules on logging etiquette except for no number sharing. I know how quite a few of the main players / heavy movers play, but with all due respect, they don't set the rules. I log coins, you log coins. MaxB doesn't log coins via discovery. I don't respect them anymore than I respect any other TB/Coin mover. There are a few people on Larobley's list that are very suspect on how they got there numbers. I know who they are and how they racked up their stats. They have broken the only rule of TB's I know. I don't respect them.

 

In reality, I more like the icons on my page than being on the top 50, so I do discover coins that I haven't got the icon for....but I like to at least see that coin first!!

 

Ok, stop bringing it up, we get it. BTW.........I am right behind you on the list.

Edited January 10, 2007 by 5¢

[+Rockin Roddy]

After reading this I am left trying to figure out where you're coming from in all this. At first I thought it was going to be a slam because I go after masses of TBs to up my numbers...hey, that's no secret, I've said that often!

 

Then I thought it was going to be a slam because I discover coins, but I see that my count is less on the coin side than yours (but that doesn't REALLY mean much, I've found a lot of coins in the wild, so some coins are finds on both counts I'd assume).

 

I think what it really boils down to is you didn't like that I said there are "proper" ways to get your numbers up?? Why, did I hit a nerve or something?? I wasn't trying to be mean or anything, play the game any way you want...I sure do! My way makes ME happy...if it doesn't make YOU happy, to bad! I'm not out to please you or anyone else!

 

I would have to say that the answer to your question about "cheapening the accomplishment" would have to be answered by YOU!! If you don't mind getting the numbers by discovering a dozen TBs from a TB hotel, have at it! I won't as that "cheapens" MY accomplishment! If you don't mind going to an event and grabbing every coin sheet laying on the tables so you can log them, by all means, please do! I won't because I mainly only discover friends' coins (and my friends DO have a lot), but again, that's ME!!

 

And you are right, there is no DEFINED "proper" way....whatever YOU feel to be proper works fine...for you!

 

And lastly....you'll likely notice that I am not working on the TB thing much anymore...I found it took away from other aspects of the game that I like equally (if not more)...hiding caches and finding caches!! I really only tried to climb the ladder because my friends Geopigs, Lost Scouts, Wolverine Warriors and MaxB on the River were up there!! After seeing how fast one can climb if they try, I have lost interest! BTW...what has taken you so long...you've had a bit longer than I to get there...it is I that should be chasing YOU!!

[+5¢]

Roddy, I was just messing with you on this stuff. I don't log everything that comes in front of me either. If I don't see the coins I don't log them. I have thrown away a few lists of coins being handed out at events when the owners forgot to bring the coins but had the lists.

 

The last part of why has it taken me so long................................

 

Well, that one is kind of a good question. I will answer it like this.......... There is a lot of travel bug swapping (large quantities) between cachers. So one guy has 30 he takes them to the other who has 30 and they trade. I have done it myself. But, there are two states that this happens a lot in and one of them is yours. I know how you climbed the ladder so quickly. If MaxB, Geopigs, Wolverine Cachers and Lost Scouts lived in Illinois, I would probably have 3000 tbs by now. But I only have my lowly number because except for two occasions totallying about 50 bugs, I have grabbed all the bugs and coins on my own. Put 150000 miles on my truck in the last 5 months picking up bugs one at a time from southern Indiana to Central Illinois. I remember a guy who had quite a few bugs saying once that the two states his bugs never seemed to visit were Illinois and Indiana. The odds are against me.

 

Once again, no slams or hatred meant. Just having fun on the forums.

[+Rockin Roddy]

OK...sorry...I have been guilty of reading posts differently than they are intended before!! Yesterday was a bad day for me too, so I was a bit edgy...not an excuse for acting rudely...sorry!!

 

I too have been out and about...I didn't start the trading in masses with Geopigs until I was well on my way, (she wanted me to prove that I was a TB hunter worthy of joining the group...so to speak) but yes, we do swap a lot of TBs. MOSTLY though, Geopigs and I go out and collect them ourselves and then we share them between us (she'll give me half, we'll log them and then swap them to each other). I too have put ungodly mileage on my new Jeep (35,500 since buying it last January) MOST of those miles are caching/TB miles (except the trip to Vegas...but then I cached and hunted TBs then too), as I ride my motorcycle to work and just about ANY time I get the chance...even up until a few weeks ago when it just got a bit too cold for me!!

 

I rarely get any TBs from anyone other than Geopigs, but she does get them from others like mentioned...I am not privvy to a good share of those, it causes problems between some mutual friends...so I sometimes watch when Geopigs makes a drop, then I'll go grab those up and keep the cycle going!!

 

Geopigs and I are going out this morning for a small run, but I don't see me doing this too much any more...it REALLY takes up my time when I'd rather find caches (when we go out, Geopigs will plan only for caches with TBs...we have made full day trips that only included finding 4 caches...most are very long trips to the deep Ohio area or around Grand Rapids). I've been sitting on the same TBs for over two weeks now and really have to get them moving again, but I'm not out for the TBs any more...the logging process, the long driving hours etc...I can't do it like they do...I'm just not as dedicated! It would mean either doing ONLY TBs or ONLY caches...I want to do it all!

 

It IS easier though when there are so many well used TB hotels nearby...Jackson (about a 20 min drive) has a good hotel, Coldwater (Wolverine Warriors country)...about an hour away, Kalamazoo (where I go often during the summer on my motorcycle)...about an hour and a half out, Lost Scouts are about 2 1/2 hours away another friend is 3 hours, Great Lakes Lighthouse and MaxB's Big Orange are both about 4-4 1/2 hours away. During the summer, I might plan a day trip to ALL of those maybe every month or so.

[+5¢]

OK...sorry...I have been guilty of reading posts differently than they are intended before!! Yesterday was a bad day for me too, so I was a bit edgy...not an excuse for acting rudely...sorry!!

 

I too have been out and about...I didn't start the trading in masses with Geopigs until I was well on my way, (she wanted me to prove that I was a TB hunter worthy of joining the group...so to speak) but yes, we do swap a lot of TBs. MOSTLY though, Geopigs and I go out and collect them ourselves and then we share them between us (she'll give me half, we'll log them and then swap them to each other). I too have put ungodly mileage on my new Jeep (35,500 since buying it last January) MOST of those miles are caching/TB miles (except the trip to Vegas...but then I cached and hunted TBs then too), as I ride my motorcycle to work and just about ANY time I get the chance...even up until a few weeks ago when it just got a bit too cold for me!!

 

I rarely get any TBs from anyone other than Geopigs, but she does get them from others like mentioned...I am not privvy to a good share of those, it causes problems between some mutual friends...so I sometimes watch when Geopigs makes a drop, then I'll go grab those up and keep the cycle going!!

 

Geopigs and I are going out this morning for a small run, but I don't see me doing this too much any more...it REALLY takes up my time when I'd rather find caches (when we go out, Geopigs will plan only for caches with TBs...we have made full day trips that only included finding 4 caches...most are very long trips to the deep Ohio area or around Grand Rapids). I've been sitting on the same TBs for over two weeks now and really have to get them moving again, but I'm not out for the TBs any more...the logging process, the long driving hours etc...I can't do it like they do...I'm just not as dedicated! It would mean either doing ONLY TBs or ONLY caches...I want to do it all!

 

It IS easier though when there are so many well used TB hotels nearby...Jackson (about a 20 min drive) has a good hotel, Coldwater (Wolverine Warriors country)...about an hour away, Kalamazoo (where I go often during the summer on my motorcycle)...about an hour and a half out, Lost Scouts are about 2 1/2 hours away another friend is 3 hours, Great Lakes Lighthouse and MaxB's Big Orange are both about 4-4 1/2 hours away. During the summer, I might plan a day trip to ALL of those maybe every month or so.

 

No hard feelings man. I didn't read your post as rude anyway.