EVEN MINUTES-LIFESAVING CACHES

[+hikergps]

No easy answer to that one. What can you do, say "sorry pal, you got yourself into it, you figure it out" and walk away? I guess that's why rescue crews can charge for services, and sue for damages incurred during a rescue.

 

I remember being home watching tv a couple years ago watching a live news broadcast of rescue attempt on the same mountain. A news crew got a Pave Hawk going down on live broadcast news. Creepy thing to watch. Here's a link to the story: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/30/oreg...thood.accident/

 

edit to fix run on sentence

Edited December 23, 2006 by hikergps

[+Mopar]

Here's an old idea that isn't as popular as it used to be:

 

How about people start learning to take care of themselves instead of expecting someone else to take care of them?

 

Here here.

 

OK. Let me add a twist to that. It may be a little on the edge, but lets get rid of law enforcement and fire services. Isn't there job to take care of people? Ever needed their service. Would you be ready do deal with your own rescue, and take care of yourself? Since I work in both fields and have seen "much stuff", I feel that I can reasonably say that this attitude is ludacris as it relates to this thread.

Since you have worked in both fields, you MUST know this is not true. Everyone knows the job of the fire dept is not to protect/prevent fire. It's to deal with the aftermath. Put out the fire after it's started.

Same with the police. The courts have stated that the police have no legal duty to protect an individual from crime. Again, they mainly deal with the aftermath. They investigate the crime, and hopefully locate the criminal so they can be prosecuted in our court system for commiting said crime.

So, if the fire dept can't prevent a fire; it's my duty to protect me and my family by installing smoke detectors, and keeping fire extinguishers handy.

So, if the police can't prevent me and my family from being robbed, raped, or murdered; it's my duty to provide as much protection as possible.

So, if a SAR team can't prevent me from getting lost in the wilderness, it's up to me to provide as many means of self-rescue as possible, and also a way for searchers to find me (radio, gps, plb, etc) if I require assistence. Instead of (keeping on topic) relying on other people to cache rescue gear all over the mountainside in case I need it.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Mopar

[+Confucius' Cat]

I think this is a common misunderstanding.

 

True, the fire rescue folks deal with the aftermath, but they do so non-judgementally. No fireman will (except in PRIVATE and in jest) say "you wrecked because you are a dumbell, would you like to rent the "jaws of life" so you can extricate yourself? We take Visa MC and Discover".

 

No policeman I've ever talked to would tell a rape victim "its your own fault because you didn't kick the rapist's butt"

 

If the emergency responders had these attitudes, why would they even continue to exist?

 

Reputable FDs DO in fact attempt to prevent fires. They do fire safety inspections and instructions in attempt to get people to do EXACTLY what you say, Mopar- have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers, keep fuel away from ignition sources...

 

Reputable PDs DO in fact attempt to prevent crime- same as FD above- with education and self help instructions. EG "be aware of your surroundings" "report suspicious activity in your neighbourhood" "don't let the bad guy move the crime scene", etc

 

Mopar is absolutely RIGHT that we have to take PRIMARY responsibility for our own health and safety.

 

Hikergps points out that it doesn't always work and there is no shame in needing and asking for help.

 

Just because someone gets "in over their head" doesn't mean they were stupid or irresponsible.

[+beerhog]

With all the storms that have been training in in the northwest, why plan to climb the mountain. Sounds like they got what they asked for. I do not know why this sport has even to get into the lifesaving of another sport that in this case would have been safe if you carried needed supplys and watched the weather.

[+hikergps]

Here's an old idea that isn't as popular as it used to be:

 

How about people start learning to take care of themselves instead of expecting someone else to take care of them?

 

Here here.

 

OK. Let me add a twist to that. It may be a little on the edge, but lets get rid of law enforcement and fire services. Isn't there job to take care of people? Ever needed their service. Would you be ready do deal with your own rescue, and take care of yourself? Since I work in both fields and have seen "much stuff", I feel that I can reasonably say that this attitude is ludacris as it relates to this thread.

Since you have worked in both fields, you MUST know this is not true. Everyone knows the job of the fire dept is not to protect/prevent fire. It's to deal with the aftermath. Put out the fire after it's started.

Same with the police. The courts have stated that the police have no legal duty to protect an individual from crime. Again, they mainly deal with the aftermath. They investigate the crime, and hopefully locate the criminal so they can be prosecuted in our court system for commiting said crime.

So, if the fire dept can't prevent a fire; it's my duty to protect me and my family by installing smoke detectors, and keeping fire extinguishers handy.

So, if the police can't prevent me and my family from being robbed, raped, or murdered; it's my duty to provide as much protection as possible.

So, if a SAR team can't prevent me from getting lost in the wilderness, it's up to me to provide as many means of self-rescue as possible, and also a way for searchers to find me (radio, gps, plb, etc) if I require assistence. Instead of (keeping on topic) relying on other people to cache rescue gear all over the mountainside in case I need it.

 

Thank you for letting me know what the purpose of my jobs are. I thought that my departments' mission statements, policies, proceedures, guidelines, training models, etc told me something a little different. According to what "everybody knows" law enforcement and fire departments sit around and wait for the fecal matter to hit the rotating oscillator. I was confused I guess, since "everyone knows the job" but me.

 

Confucius' Cat pretty much beat me to the post of what I was thinking after reading this. I agree that we have to take responsibility for our own safety. I'm pretty sure that is the short of what Mopar was getting at. But bad things happen.

 

And like I said in the other post:

If that is your opinion, that is your opinion. Now you know mine.

 

I will add as I stated before in the thread, that caching rescue gear isn't the best use of public resources.

Edited December 24, 2006 by hikergps

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Interesting to read this while I am watching "I Shouldn't Be Alive" on Discovery Channel - about 3 climbers stuck on Mt. McKinley.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I will add as I stated before in the thread, that caching rescue gear isn't the best use of public resources.

I don't think we are talking about public money here, but it would be a very inefficient (read WASTEFUL) use of private money as well.

 

The OP seems to list an orderly method of distribution, but when you consider the listed waypoints relationship to the actual trails and routes that are commonly used, their distribution becomes essentially random. It is random in the sense that the proximity to where the hiker is likely to be when in trouble is unpredictable.

 

It would be like putting a firehouse on every third corner in a city. Some of them would be surrounded by parking lots and businesses, some of them would be surrounded by dense residential populations. Some of them would be very active and useful, others would be rarely used at all.

 

It is much wiser to study the area and plant your resources where they will most likely get a reasonable amount of activity and provide for the quickest response to the largest number of people.

 

Any plan that randomly distributes resources is bound to be wasteful. Placing supplies at a FEW strategic locations such as is done on the Appalachian trail and other popular wilderness areas, where the person in need need only stay on the trail to find them, makes sense but is not itself without problems.

 

To counter Mopar and other's points about being prepared (which i agree with to a large extent); in the case of an unexpected change of weather or an injury, even the best prepared might not have enough supplies to survive for a longer period than they expected to be out. Having extra supplies available is a GOOD thing.

 

Placing supplies where special equipment is needed to find them just adds an additional element of randomness to the equation of getting them to the persons who need them because it is unknown whether the persons in need will have the equipment needed to find the stashes.

 

A few strategically placed and well maintained supply caches is a wise idea in places where people frequently get STRANDED. But not for people who are lost- if they are lost, by definition, they would not be able to find a hidden waypoint.

 

These caches should ideally be in a place of shelter as well, like a small cabin. This would be expensive, but effective. And it IS being done in some places.

[FlagFinder]

i see some good and some really bad problems. first avalanches and snow may cover the cache it shouldnt be handeled by geocaching.com they are most likely to be lost somehow or stolen now you could use just coordinates to be major rodevou points to get to but im sure its been done. plus ive noticed the colder it gets the slower your gpsr is.

[+Confucius' Cat]

ive noticed the colder it gets the slower your gpsr is.

Interesting. I have never noticed this.

[Suscrofa]

ive noticed the colder it gets the slower your gpsr is.

Interesting. I have never noticed this.

 

LCD screens become slugish with the cold but the GPS functionnality is not affected. Anyway the GPS won't loose track when you walk in the snow at 1km/h

[+Confucius' Cat]

ive noticed the colder it gets the slower your gpsr is.

Interesting. I have never noticed this.

 

LCD screens become slugish with the cold but the GPS functionnality is not affected. Anyway the GPS won't loose track when you walk in the snow at 1km/h

i've used mine quite a bit in the winter and have never noticed anything unusual, but admittedly we don't have REAL winter in Indiana.

[FlagFinder]

i use an explorist 210 and this starts to happen at about 10*F