EVEN MINUTES-LIFESAVING CACHES

[+tomfuller & Quill]

Ordinarily I am an occasional poster to the forums. This is my first new topic as an OP.

I ventured to a remote cache on November 9 on the south side of the Rogue river in Oregon.

GCPCTX Just Clowning Around. I hiked down from the same road that Mr. Kim got stuck on 16 days later.

Now we have a group of 3 mountain climbers stranded on Mount Hood. Searchers have a general idea of where one of them is.

I am proposing to TPTB that a series of lifesaving caches be planted on mountains that are regularly climbed.

If the climbers will not carry ELT beacons, maybe we can get them to carry a GPSr and a new pack of 4 AA's.

climbers would be advised to waypoint their vehicle. My idea is to advertise to climbers that caches are out in the open but secured to the ground at EVEN MINUTES eg. 45* 22.000N 121* 42.000W (closest to the summit of Mount Hood). The caches should have a little STERNO stove and cup for melting snow, several energy bars, a telescoping pole that activates an ELT when extended. Rope, a shovel and 3 tyvek/mylar coveralls are other good things to put into these lifesaving caches. Searchers would have a little easier time if they had only a few places to search for the snow caves that climbers dig when stranded by severe weather and cannot get back to their vehicle or other shelter.

Any mountain climber/cachers are welcome to add suggestions on other things to add to EVEN MINUTES caches.

The USDI/National Park Service should be glad to approve this type of cache in areas where other caches are not allowed. Please feel free to post suggestions/criticism of this idea.

Tom Fuller

Crescent, Oregon

[Mushtang]

That's a great idea in theory, but in practice I think it wouldn't work well. If the caches didn't get mauled by bears looking for the energy bars, someone would trade out the sterno oven for a McToy.

[+Renegade Knight]

In Alaska they plant mini cabins for folks caught in the wilderness. I don't konw if they stock them with food but it's instant shelter.

[Team CDCB]

That's a great idea in theory, but in practice I think it wouldn't work well. If the caches didn't get mauled by bears looking for the energy bars, someone would trade out the sterno oven for a McToy.

 

Little hard to get to in the BLizzard, but still got here. Thanks for the cache!

T: Life saving equipment

L: Happy Feet Penguin from BK.

Signed the Log.

[+KoosKoos]

If the climbers will not carry ELT beacons, maybe we can get them to carry a GPSr and a new pack of 4 AA's.

 

I also applaud your concern and idea....but for people who are so unprepared for the possibility of being stranded, are they suddenly going to remember their GPSr? When as you put it, they don't even carry an ELT?

 

It's a nice theory, but not sure how we can make people more aware of their surroundings or how to be prepared enough to find the caches you're discussing.

[+Stunod]

Sounds like a good idea...but wouldn't it be better handled by a mountain climbing group, rather than the Groundspeak staff?

[+tomfuller & Quill]

I suspect that mountain climbers are a bit like geocachers and work in groups of 3-5. I would hope that an organization of climbers would supply most of the cache supplies. A combination padlock with the combo of minutes N and minutes W might keep muggles/bears out. The penalty for removal of lifesaving items in a non-emergency should be spelled out in the logbook.

Now that a few cellphones are GPS compatable, I would hope that climbers wold carry them.

If only 1 life were saved it would be worth the cost.

[+Mopar]

Here's an old idea that isn't as popular as it used to be:

 

How about people start learning to take care of themselves instead of expecting someone else to take care of them?

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I suspect that mountain climbers are a bit like geocachers and work in groups of 3-5. I would hope that an organization of climbers would supply most of the cache supplies. A combination padlock with the combo of minutes N and minutes W might keep muggles/bears out. The penalty for removal of lifesaving items in a non-emergency should be spelled out in the logbook.

Now that a few cellphones are GPS compatable, I would hope that climbers wold carry them.

If only 1 life were saved it would be worth the cost.

I see a number of flaws with this idea; most have been aired already in this thread. For a quick summary, along with some newly-itemized challenges, see below:

• to place such emergency geo-stashes in all mountainous wilderness areas at every .000 concordance (i.e., at the corner intersections of approximately 550 foot-square grids would take a TREMENDOUS number of geo-stashes, supplies, and geo-stash placers.
  
• who would maintain such geo-stashes and ensure that they remain filled with supplies or have not been vandalized or destroyed by wild animals?
  
• the odds very high are that 99% of the people who would need to know this and to know how/where to find the emergency stashes would never have even heard of the concept, much less of the details (i.e., located at all 000 concordances in all moutain wilderness areas), and that they would NOT have a functioning GPSr and spare batteries with them.
  
• it has been proposed by the OP that these life-saving mountain kits be placed at all 000 concordances in the wilderness. Many such 000 concordances may be either inacessible or dangerous to reach.
  
• How would a person lost in the wilderness -- even if they belonged to the 1% of the population who might conceivably know of the concept and plan, and even if they belonged to the even smaller percentage of lost persons who would be equipped with a GPSr and spare batteries -- know if the nearest .000 concordance spot did or did not have an emplacement of such a geo-stash? And, if one were lost, to hike from one's present location, to the nearest .000 concordance in the faint hope of finding a geo-stash which might or might not be there, could lead the lost person into new dangers.
  
• the items that lost persons in mountain wilderness most need -- aside from a GPS-emergency beacon or Emergency Locator Transmitter -- are usually dry warm clothing, waterproof clothing, and WATER. These items take up LOTS of space; the geo-stash container would of necessity need to be very large. And, to forestall raids by bears and casual vandals, the container would need to be a very large ammo can -- equipped with lock -- or the equivalent.
  
• it was proposed that the legal penalty for removal of items in on-emergency situations be spelled out in the lobgook. How many thieves or vandals will bothre to read a logbook, and how many, if they DID read it, would pay any attention to the warning?
  

Better to be equipped for such emergencies in the first place. Having said that, I do feel that occasional emergency stashes similar to this migh be useful if placed at certain intervals along wilderness roads and wilderness trails, placed where most visible and accessible, and not placed in a way which would require a GPSr to find the stash container. But, the presence and location and availability of such large stashes would need to be announced via numerous signs along the relevant roads and trails, and along borders of such wilderness areas.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Confucius' Cat]

Well, nice idea. In fact I think that's where the original "cache" idea came from. I recall an elementary school story about some eskimos and their caches. This was LONG b4 gps technology.

 

Unfortunately, the people you seek to help with the caches would be unlikely to be helped.

 

The recent story got a lot of press and I am pretty ignorant of all the details, but the little bits I have heard I think are typical of the mistakes people make when they are lost. I don't see having caches stashed at strategic places doing any good for people that make these typical survival mistakes.

 

The most striking thing I heard was that the lodge at the end of the road was fully stocked and all the man would have had to do is stay on the road and he would have found the lodge.

 

The most basic things of survival if one decides to walk out is to stay on 1. the road, 2. the trail, or 3. the stream bank.

 

Roads and trails lead to civilization. Water runs downhill and usually leads to civilization. Follow any one of those and you will generally find help if you are able to walk far enough.

 

The biggest mistake lost people make is not following a road because they think it does not go where they want to go. If one is truly lost, ANYWHERE that one can find another human being, shelter and supplies, or working communications is WHERE ONE WANTS TO GO.

 

If a person has GPS and batteries, why go for a cache? Go for a major road.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

I suspect that mountain climbers are a bit like geocachers and work in groups of 3-5. I would hope that an organization of climbers would supply most of the cache supplies. A combination padlock with the combo of minutes N and minutes W might keep muggles/bears out. The penalty for removal of lifesaving items in a non-emergency should be spelled out in the logbook.

Now that a few cellphones are GPS compatable, I would hope that climbers wold carry them.

If only 1 life were saved it would be worth the cost.

I see a number of flaws with this idea; most have been aired already in this thread. For a quick summary, along with some newly-itemized challenges, see below:

• to place such emergency geo-stashes in all mountainous wilderness areas at every .000 concordance (i.e., at the corner intersections of approximately 550 foot-square grids would take a TREMENDOUS number of geo-stashes, supplies, and geo-stash placers.
  
• who would maintain such geo-stashes and ensure that they remain filled with supplies or have not been vandalized or destroyed by wild animals?
  
• the odds very high are that 99% of the people who would need to know this and to know how/where to find the emergency stashes would never have even heard of the concept, much less of the details (i.e., located at all 000 concordances in all moutain wilderness areas), and that they would NOT have a functioning GPSr and spare batteries with them.
  
• it has been proposed by the OP that these life-saving mountain kits be placed at all 000 concordances in the wilderness. Many such 000 concordances may be either inacessible or dangerous to reach.
  
• How would a person lost in the wilderness -- even if they belonged to the 1% of the population who might conceivably know of the concept and plan, and even if they belonged to the even smaller percentage of lost persons who would be equipped with a GPSr and spare batteries -- know if the nearest .000 concordance spot did or did not have an emplacement of such a geo-stash? And, if one were lost, to hike from one's present location, to the nearest .000 concordance in the faint hope of finding a geo-stash which might or might not be there, could lead the lost person into new dangers.
  
• the items that lost persons in mountain wilderness most need -- aside from a GPS-emergency beacon or Emergency Locator Transmitter -- are usually dry warm clothing, waterproof clothing, and WATER. These items take up LOTS of space; the geo-stash container would of necessity need to be very large. And, to forestall raids by bears and casual vandals, the container would need to be a very large ammo can -- equipped with lock -- or the equivalent.
  
• it was proposed that the legal penalty for removal of items in on-emergency situations be spelled out in the lobgook. How many thieves or vandals will bothre to read a logbook, and how many, if they DID read it, would pay any attention to the warning?
  

Better to be equipped for such emergencies in the first place. Having said that, I do feel that occasional emergency stashes similar to this migh be useful if placed at certain intervals along wilderness roads and wilderness trails, placed where most visible and accessible, and not placed in a way which would require a GPSr to find the stash container. But, the presence and location and availability of such large stashes would need to be announced via numerous signs along the relevant roads and trails, and along borders of such wilderness areas.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

In response to Vinny & Sue (whom I respect greatly for the extreme caches they place), The proposal is for EVEN MINUTES. The proposal entails one quarter the number as a group on all minute confluences.

At 45 degrees North if you are at an ODD minute confluence, you are 1.4 miles from an EVEN MINUTE confluence. The stash program would be posted at the trailheads for the mountain. Bears rarely travel above the treeline because there is very little food for them up there. If someone extends the pole and the ELT is activated on the mountain, a search will be triggered immediately.

Mountaineering groups can discuss the proper other stash contents.

In response to Confucius' Cat , he is absolutely right about staying on the road. The EVEN MINUTES proposal is for areas more than 1.5 miles from the nearest road/shelter. If the climbers on Mount Hood could have reached their vehicle a lot of risk would be avoided by the many rescue mountaineers.

[+Confucius' Cat]

The EVEN MINUTES proposal is for areas more than 1.5 miles from the nearest road/shelter. If the climbers on Mount Hood could have reached their vehicle a lot of risk would be avoided by the many rescue mountaineers.

In most cases, a 1.5 mile hike is nothing and you stated that there would be 1.4 miles between caches. I would agree that in severe conditions even a 100 YARD journey is a long journey, but it seems to me if they could reach a road or shelter in 1.5 miles, it would be worth the extra 0.1 mile hike to find rescue rather than just supplies.

 

Mountaineering is a totally different animal than hiking. If a mountaineering expedition is ill equipped and gets in trouble, i doubt they will be able to find your cache either. I also doubt the ability of the caching community to place and properly maintain emergency caches in the areas that would serve mountaineering groups. An occasional mountain-top cache is plausible, though they typically don't get many visits (for obvious reasons), but placing them at regular intervals is quite an undertaking.

 

I'm not saying the idea doesn't have merit, just wondering if it has enough merit to offset the costs in terms of money, time, and effort.

 

If I were placing such caches, I think I would include some form of emergency communication also with instructions that the lost person STAY PUT at the cache until rescue arrives. (it is a known location where rescuers can locate the lost person) . Good luck on that point! No one likes to admit their need for rescue, so most will just keep walking in circles figuring the next circle will lead them to safety.

[mtbikernate]

This is a pretty ridiculous concept. I'm with Mopar here. The point of wilderness is that folks take care of THEMSELVES....not relying on others for basic supplies or even emergency supplies. You should have all the emergency supplies you need, and if you're carrying the proper equipment, you can adequately signal in emergency crews if necessary.

 

We should not be thinking about dropping supplies at strategic points in the woods. We should be thinking about what these (and other) folks did or failed to do that got them in trouble in the first place. Then, we need to learn from THEIR mistakes and avoid making the same mistakes ourselves. If some people aren't going to learn from others' mistakes in the bush, then they are going to either learn those lessons the hard way or die. Tragic, yes. Preventable, yes...but not by dropping boxes of emergency supplies in the woods.

[+The Jester]

As a mountaineer, my first question is why at such an odd location? Without a GPSr you won't find it, with one why such restrictions on the location (even minutes)? Any set of co-ords would do. Such a cache would be better on a route used by climbers, not at some 'random' spot (random to the route, not by co-ords). Even that won't help in all situations as not all climbing teams will follow the same route to the summit. The number of routes listed to the top of Mt. Hood in a non-comprehensive guide is 12. How is a cache on one route (or not on any route of the original idea is used) going to help those on the other routes? If someone is able to get to a cache located somewhere, why can't they use that energy/skill to get out? Even if you are on the right route, at what point do you place the cache? Most routes are miles long and thousand of feet of elevation gain. Also, the snow depth on the mountain changes greatly throughout the year, what would be easily gotten to in summer might be feet deep in early spring. Or frozen solid in place.

 

I applaud your concern, but I find the concept unworkable. It is better for each person/group to have everything they need & be prepared to deal with the difficulties of the area (rock, snow, glacier, remoteness, etc.). That's one of the reasons I teach the climbing courses with The Mountaineer's.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

My thought was that it would be easier for searchers to find mountaineers stranded by sudden unexpected severe weather in a predetermined spot. If it would be better to put a survival cache along the main climbing routes at the 9000 foot level and have the coords posted at the trailheads that might be preferable. Having them at even minutes is something climbers could remember if they got off their planned route.

The missing climbers packed light intending on being away from shelter for no more than 30 hours.

They left from Cooper Spur campground. They left a detailed description of their route on a paper grocery bag.

Their intent was to go up the north side of Mount Hood making the summit as fast as possible. Then they planned to come down to the lodge on the south side. The weather became severe several hours earlier than expected. It is not known for sure whether they summited or not. It has been my experience that cell phone service is very spotty in Oregon, even on mountains.

If you don't like the sterno and energy bar idea, how about an MRE with the chemical heat pack and a can of one of the many energy drinks. However and wherever these caches would be placed they would have to have a tall orange tipped pole near them.

I still think my idea has some merit. I'd like to think that cachers would like to help mountaineers who climb mountains "just because they're there" just like we find caches "just because they're there".

I'll get off my soapbox now and let the responsible adults who always pack everything they might need to survive a night on a mountain come up with a better rescue plan.

I am really glad the BLM or someone else did not lock the gate and lock me in on November 9 in Josephine county west of Galice. Where I went down to the Rogue river was 23 miles past the infamous gate seen on CNN after the Kim family tragedy . It took me 13 hours from my 4WD truck down to the Rogue find the cache and back up 1750 feet elevation rise and back to the truck.

I came out the gate about 2AM November 10. Thank you Jester for your opinions. If all of the mountaineers carried everything they might need when setting out, the packs might be 15 lbs. heavier.

I have enough trouble remembering to bring a pen to a cache sometimes. Any more opinions before we put this idea on the shelf? (like GWB is doing with the Iraq Study Group report).

[Mushtang]

A combination padlock with the combo of minutes N and minutes W might keep muggles/bears out.

I don't think bears open ammo cans using the latch, nor would they look at a padlocked ammo can and refuse to bother it.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I still think my idea has some merit. I'd like to think that cachers would like to help mountaineers who climb mountains "just because they're there" just like we find caches "just because they're there".

I'll get off my soapbox now and let the responsible adults who always pack everything they might need to survive a night on a mountain come up with a better rescue plan. <snip>

(like GWB is doing with the Iraq Study Group report).

Don't take it personally. I don't think anyone here is objecting to the basic idea or its motivation, just to its practicality and whether it will accomplish the purpose for which it is designed.

 

From your political comment I now better understand where you are coming from.

 

Since you brought it in, a comparison to politics might help you understand where those who are nay-saying are coming from. Let's look at the difference between our two major parties...

 

I don't believe either party wants the U.S. to go to hell in a handbasket (no matter what the "vote for me because my opponent is an ***" election rhetoric would have you believe).

 

We all want what's best for us all. The difference is that some see government as the best way to accomplish their laudable goals and others see the diminishment of government (getting out of the way) as the best way to accomplish their laudable goals. One party sees individual responsibility as the WAY, the other sees the "little people" as incapable of doing for themselves without the help of government, i.e. everybody needs a handout or a handup.

 

The argument in politics is almost always about the METHOD of accomplishing the task, not about the worthiness of the task.

 

It is unfortuantely a rule of nature that some things work the way they are intended and some things do not. The wisdom to see which ones are which is what we are striving for when we discuss issues in an adult manner.

 

Some people could benefit from provisions hidden in out-of-the-way-palces. But the big issue is how to get these provisions in the right place at the right time. That is where your idea falls short.

 

Your desire to help is VERY COMMENDABLE but your method is poor at best. The liklihood that the cache would be in the right place at the right time for the right person is a one-in-a-million shot.

 

I can see that you are deeply concerned about this issue and you really want to help out. You asked for a better rescue plan? How about this:

 

Make a donation to the Red Cross (or your local rescue agency). They support the people who have the training, expertise, and equipment to make rescues. It would be a much better use of resources.

 

Or perhaps also you could volunteer for a local rescue outfit... like the local VFD or Civil Air Patrol.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

In Alaska they plant mini cabins for folks caught in the wilderness. I don't konw if they stock them with food but it's instant shelter.

 

On most of the Appalachian Trail there are mini shelters as well (I wouldn't call them cabins because they're not completely enclosed but they will cover you from the elements).

[+OHMIKY]

"The only capital crime is stupidity."

--Lazarus Long

 

Folks who get into serious avoidable trouble in the wilderness or on mountainsides are foolish for not being better prepared. This is not to say that they should not be helped - everyone has a right to an education - but they should also not be surprised if there is nobody around to pull them out.

[+Criminal]

Supply caches are not legal in the National Forests, National Parks, or Wilderness Areas.

[+Indotguy]

So why did these climbers not carry a GPS? They obviously had a mobile phone. If they had a GPS I presume they could have given the rescuers their coordinates when they called. This would have made it easier to find them it would seem.

[+hikergps]

So why did these climbers not carry a GPS? They obviously had a mobile phone. If they had a GPS I presume they could have given the rescuers their coordinates when they called. This would have made it easier to find them it would seem.

 

I'm sure right now the climbers and their families are asking themselves a lot of questions about preparedness for one's activities and the consequences of being ill prepared for an ascent in December up an 11,249 ft+ snow covered mountain. This type of activity is dangerous with assumed risks that the climbers were willing to take. A gps would have done them little to no good unless they used it as firewood. The weather has been more of a hinderance to the rescue teams than anything else. One cannot and should not rely on a gps and a cell phone to bail yourself out of a dangerous situation that you are purposefully placing yourself into.

 

I know that Mr. Kim did not set out thinking that he would be hiking to save himself and his family, they were unprepared for winter travel. Granted, this is an extreme case, but you need to be ready for what Mother Nature can throw in front of you.

 

BTW-They haven't all been found yet. One body has been recovered this morning. The rescue teams are still searching.

 

While the idea of rescue caches is a noble one I think the execution, expense, and maintence of the task would out-weigh the benefits.

Edited December 18, 2006 by hikergps

[+Alan2]

I hope they find the other two who are missing. This is really tough on them and the families. I think for the general caching community, though, the problem is not why seemingly professsional climbers didn't take a gps but why so many cachers including myself hike into the woods by ourselves for a "short" hike to a cache and don't tell anyone, go by themselves with little survival equipment, etc. It only takes a small accident where you're disabled and then you got major problems. The GPS isn't going to help much when your cell phones out of range.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I hope they find the other two who are missing. This is really tough on them and the families. I think for the general caching community, though, the problem is not why seemingly professsional climbers didn't take a gps but why so many cachers including myself hike into the woods by ourselves for a "short" hike to a cache and don't tell anyone, go by themselves with little survival equipment, etc. It only takes a small accident where you're disabled and then you got major problems. The GPS isn't going to help much when your cell phones out of range.

HEAR HEAR.

 

I am a prime example. I wear little clothing, go after a cache without notice expecting a short, quick find, and carry just my "pocket equipment". Many times i don't even carry my GPS.

 

A couple of weeks ago i went for a cache whilst my family members looked over a cemetary about 600 feet from GZ. It was an "I'll be right back" thing in a state park. I bushwhacked in and I fell on my arm just as I got to the trail. i got up and went on to find the cache. This one ended OK.

 

It was a wakeup call of sorts... they probably would not have come looking for me for a couple of hours most likely if I had not returned. If I had been unconsious, I might have lain there a long time, even though my family was just a couple hundred feet away.

 

So why do i do this when I obviously know better? I am not sure I can really answer that.

 

I wouldn't dare go caving this way- not even just to the end of the "twilight zone". So why the laxity on cache hunts?

 

I think part of the answer is the expectation of the quick grab. Part of the explanation is that there are few people with whom i regularly associate that are willing to go where i go, and usually I am out alone anyway.

 

Floyd Collins caved alone because he could not find anyone else who was as avid a caver as he was. I think that is personally why I cache alone. Floyd Collins died in a cave.

 

As a cop, I always called out where i was if I got out of the car. It was a good idea. As a cacher, i have no dispatcher. There is noone waiting for my call to write down where i am at.

 

My caching would be cut almost to zero if I did not cache alone and if I had to actually PLAN each cache trip.

 

Am I unusual?

[+Indotguy]

It is reported climber James called family members on Dec. 10 and said they were in trouble. I ask again, why would a GPS not have been of service at this time? I don't really believe one can compare the preparations for a simple cache trip to a climb up Mt. Hood, although it is true that anything can happen anywhere, anytime and it always pays to be prepared. Simply forgetting to pack the GPS is a pretty grevious error in an expeditation like this and I hope they had more practical reasons for not including one in the inventory. This said, of course I hope the remaining climbers are found alive and rescued very soon.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Indotguy

[Suscrofa]

I recommend you view this movie:

 

"Dersu Uzala" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071411/

 

It is all described, survival in Siberia, shelter, nature etc...

[Tahosa and Sons]

Groundspeak does not need to open themselfs up to lawsuits because someone couldn't find the survival cache.

 

By now we know that one of the climbers is dead. That is the way it is when you push the limits in Winter.

 

There is one section of LNT that has some of the most meanings for those that venture forth into the wilds.

 

Plan ahead and prepare.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[+Mule Ears]

Mountaineers of various stripes have their own organizations and web sites (e.g., summitpost), and are very active in discussing safety issues. They would not be impressed with naive outside proposals, since they are vastly more qualified than any outsider to balance the technical, environmental, and sporting considerations. Not to mention that many of them disdain GPS, and would oppose placement of marked caches, even if the land managers would permit it.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Not to mention that many of them disdain GPS

Why?

[+Mule Ears]

Not to mention that many of them disdain GPS

Why?

 

Reason given is typically that it's unnecessary; that a responsible navigator is going to carry and use map and compass anyway, so the gadget is just extra weight. (I don't share this view, so I may not be representing it perfectly, but that's the gist.)

[mtbikernate]

A lot of outdoors folks don't carry gps receivers for a lot of reasons. Some frequently cited ones:

Extra unnecessary weight.

I don't like gadgets in the woods. I get into the woods to avoid gadgets.

A map & compass work just fine for me, thanks.

A GPS receiver is too unreliable (battery issues, reception issues) to be useful.

 

I am convinced that a gps is useful...that said, I don't always carry mine when I'm out on a hike or a backpacking trip (but I do always have at least a map & compass).

 

Probably the biggest tenet of the woods is to ALWAYS carry the 10+ Essentials. A lot of people get into trouble because they fail to carry important emergency equipment. It sounds like this case may have had a couple factors play into the bad result.

 

#1 Climber got injured and couldn't make it down.

#2 Climbers get caught in big storm.

#3 Climber's buddies descended the mountain in a nasty storm to get help.

#4 Climbers didn't carry enough gear to wait out the storm on the mountain.

 

Two of these are lapses in judgement. One is just an unpredictable part of nature. The other can be chalked up to '$hit happens'. But, when #1 is combined with two serious lapses in judgement and a nasty storm, nothing good happens. Without the storm or without the injury, the scenario may well have played out differently, just as if the climbers had not skimped on gear in anticipation of a 'rapid ascent' on the peak.

 

Fact is, if you aren't willing to accept the risks of wilderness travel, then you don't belong out there. If you accept those risks, it's your responsibility to make sure you take adequate precautions to get yourself out alive if something bad was to happen. Putting rescue/emergency caches out there to help people who get in trouble will only serve to attract people who don't belong out there in the first place, resulting in even more deaths. Some folks make the same argument about gps receivers. To a certain extent, I think there is some truth to that. A lot of people who own gps receivers couldn't get from point A to point B with a map & compass if their gps batteries died or they lost reception. The same also occurs with cell phones. Every year someone gets tired in the woods and expects the cavalry to ride in and save them because they called 911 on their cell. With that, at least they get a bill.

Edited December 19, 2006 by mtbikernate

[+1stimestar]

It is reported climber James called family members on Dec. 10 and said they were in trouble. I ask again, why would a GPS not have been of service at this time?

 

Because they weren't lost, they were stormed in with an injured member. Rescue personel couldn't get to them if they could have given coordinates.

[+1stimestar]

I'm a back country back packer and will not use my gps for it. I only use my gps for geocaching. I do get out there to get away from gadgets among other things. If I can't find my way using a map and compass then I have no business going to the places I go. GPSs are not dependable, they can get wet, batteries go dead, they can get dropped on the rocks, etc. Yes, I can drop my compass on the rocks but with my water resistant topo map, I can always orient myself using only that and at least find my way back out. Cell phones work in a small portion of this state so even if I had coordinates, I wouldn't be able to call and tell anyone. I also go out there to challenge myself. To use a gps would feel like I was cheating myself. Eh, call me a purist.

[Mushtang]

It seems like if these hikers did have a GPS and coordinates, then the rescue team could have shown up after the storm was over and the two hikers wouldn't have been trying to go for help during the storm.

 

The cell phone worked, a GPS would have saved at least two lives for sure.

 

Saying that you're a true hiker and refusing to carry a GPS on the grounds that it's "cheating" or "not necessary" just seems a little like a trapeze artist saying that a net below him would be "cheating".

 

Hearing someone say "If I can't get out on that trapeze and get back without having to make use of that net, I have no business being out there" sounds really silly.

 

(the above should be considered ramblings of someone that is definitely not a woodsman, hiker, or experienced outdoorsman. I'm only saying what it sounds like to those like me.)

[+Mule Ears]

It seems like if these hikers did have a GPS and coordinates, then the rescue team could have shown up after the storm was over and the two hikers wouldn't have been trying to go for help during the storm.

 

That seems right to me. I followed the news casually, but during the early part of the search much interest centered on the cellphone company's efforts to provide a location fix on Kelly James. Had he been able to provide coords (or if his cellphone had provided them), that effort would have been avoided.

 

Saying that you're a true hiker and refusing to carry a GPS on the grounds that it's "cheating" or "not necessary" just seems a little like a trapeze artist saying that a net below him would be "cheating".

 

Hearing someone say "If I can't get out on that trapeze and get back without having to make use of that net, I have no business being out there" sounds really silly.

 

Well, it's not as cut-and-dried as that. What climbers seem to be trying to avoid is excessive reliance on what they see as a fragile piece of equipment. They may be indirectly admitting a lack of discipline: "If I had this device that effortlessly provided my position, I wouldn't pay enough attention to my surroundings and my map and compass. I'd be more vulnerable to getting lost or in trouble." I don't buy it completely, because it's the sort of thing that can be overcome by cultivating good habits, but I understand the reasoning.

 

Example: I use trekking poles on trail, because I can go like stink with the added balance and traction. Off-trail, the poles are sometimes useful, sometimes not. They get snagged in heavy brush and they're a burden during scrambles. But it has proven amazingly difficult to make myself stop and stow the poles when the going gets rough. As a consequence, I sometimes leave 'em at home. It'd be better if I just taught myself to put the darn things away when they're not helping anymore.

[magellan315]

I understand the map and compass point of view, they don't break and can survive any weather condition. Having a GPS with you would only be usefull if you can communicate with the outside world. What I can't understand is why someone who is going to engange in mountain climbing would not carry personal locator beacon. This alleviates the need to communicate and would give search parties a smaller area to search. Owning one is expensive, however they can be rented.

[+1stimestar]

I understand the map and compass point of view, they don't break and can survive any weather condition. Having a GPS with you would only be usefull if you can communicate with the outside world. What I can't understand is why someone who is going to engange in mountain climbing would not carry personal locator beacon. This alleviates the need to communicate and would give search parties a smaller area to search. Owning one is expensive, however they can be rented.

 

Yes, I don't know why they didn't have one. If I heard correctly, they were AT the REI store in Portland which DOES rent them. Perhaps they were out of the rentals. We will probably never know at this point.

[+Criminal]

If I can't find my way using a map and compass then I have no business going to the places I go.

Here in WA that can limit your hiking. When visibility is less than optimal, like rain/snow, fog, or night, my map & compass aren’t much use to me anyway. I take mine to record my tracks and other data. Since I often walk off on some tangent and end up making a simple hike into a ordeal, it’s interesting and educational to look at my wanderings on a topo later in the comfort of my home.

GPSs are not dependable,

Mine has never failed even once in the woods. It will often let me down while autorouting me in town, and will occasionally lose signal under the trees, but I would never say it was unreliable. I understand and accept its limitations.

…they can get wet,

So? It works just as well wet as it does dry. My Garmin V sits in an open pouch on my pack-strap, fully exposed to the rain, and when I pull it out to look at it, it’s always working.

…batteries go dead,

With lithium batteries, my old Garmin will have enough power for several long day hikes, powered on the entire time. If they go dead, I’ll load the spare set.

…they can get dropped on the rocks, etc.

So can my head, but I won’t wear a helmet on a day hike or a backpacking trip. You can attach them to you with a lanyard if you’re worried about it, or you can just not drop it.

To use a gps would feel like I was cheating myself.

You don’t have to use it, just pack it along. It won’t replace your compass, but it’s a valuable tool in your survival arsenal.

Eh, call me a purist.

Hey, we’ve been called worse. ;-)

 

Several times while hiking cross-country (no trails) I have gotten disoriented. I could dig out my map and compass and plot my position or I can simply look at my GSPr and find myself along the breadcrumb trail and reorient my path to intercept it. The former takes several minutes, the latter just a few seconds. If I have time, I’ll do both, but after eight hours hiking off trail (with a couple more to go) and darkness setting in, I am glad for the technology.

[mtbikernate]

Here's another occasion that might make some folks think. A map and compass certainly HAVE failed me in the past. Working for the USFS in southern Utah a few years ago, I was attempting to follow a transect through the woods on pretty level terrain. A transect is a straight line with survey points spaced at regular intervals along the way. I encountered an iron deposit, which created a local magnetic anomaly, and threw me off course. I didn't realize it until I came out of the woods and onto a forest road a mile or more where I should have been. Once I got to the road, I was able to properly orient the map and figure out where I was (even though the compass was still giving me incorrect readings). In that situation, a GPS would have been an ideal backup and would have set me straight. Local magnetic anomalies due to iron ore deposits are a lot more common than you might think, and because a GPS relies on satellites, it is immune to them. After that incident, my boss issued me a gps receiver (a Vista), and I was able to return to the area and finish my survey without incident.

 

IMO, if you already have the gps, it's definitely worth putting a fresh set of batteries in it and taking it with you when you hike...even if you only turn it on to save a waypoint at the place where you parked your car.

 

With regards to the incident on Mt Hood, a PLB would have been the ideal choice of emergency equipment. It would have allowed the three of them to stay together in the snow cave and greatly increase their chances of survival. Even without it, however, choosing to separate is probably the single most disasterous decision they could have made.

[+Mule Ears]

Have to chime in on Criminal's comment above regarding the usefulness of GPS in conditions of bad visibility. Last March, I hiked Bassett Peak to a cache at the summit. A trail, clearly depicted on the topo, goes most of the way to the top. I traced the trail into a GPS route, primarily to have an accurate trip odometer for gauging progress--didn't figure to need it at all for navigation. When I got near the top, I found the trail totally obscured by snow; I only knew I was on the trail when the ground beneath the snow felt relatively level. Now, that route was really useful! I lost time to the labor of postholing through the snow, but I didn't have to dope out the wanderings of the trail as well. None of this was life-or-death, but it was a lot more pleasant to hike on with confidence than to tentatively poke along.

 

I have to shake my head when I read modern mountaineering stories in which climbers become disoriented when fresh snow obscures their tracks. Or ones in which they discuss carrying and deploying dozens of "wands," lightweight stakes with little flags at the top, to mark a route.

[+eagletrek]

Back to the original scope of the OP. I think the Boy Scouts sum it up the best: "Be Prepared" A Personal Locator Beacon, used promptly, probably would have made a difference in both cases. Yes they are expensive, but how much do you value your life? One can be had for as little as $549.00.

 

GPS: Never leave home without it, when hiking. I also carry a Silva Ranger compass and a map of the area.

Edited December 19, 2006 by eagletrek

[+Alan2]

Why is a GPS hi tech while a compass with 24K topographic map isn't? The idea that you can use the latter to give one a sense of being "one" with nature and not the former seems kind of odd. They're just a different technology. It reminds me of the purists who assured everyone that digitized music will never compete with analog records. (Hmmm. just where did I store those 45's I use to have?)

 

Let's face it, a modern climber travels with hi tech boots, crampons, rings, nylon rope, etc. I suppose the only natural way to go would be without these things and you have to smell the river to find your way to water. But even then you'd be wearing your mocassins.

 

I still think the problem with climbers, cachers and others doing whatever sport they like is complacency. After you've done it awhile, you get lazy, figure, well, heck, it's just a short hike, the weather's pretty good, I got enough backup stuff, and I'll just go home if the weather gets bad, etc. So you fail to take the GPS, or not tell anyone where you're going, or whatever, and fail to have the very thing you need to survive.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Alan2

[+tomfuller & Quill]

There is only so much preparedness a mountaineer or geocacher can or will use. I doubt that any of the climbers on Mount Hood saw the need to carry a parachute. It may be spring before they dig them out at the base of a cliff.

Since I climbed up out of the Rogue river canyon 15 days before Mr. Kim went down, I bought a 6-in1 SafetyLight it weighs in at 10 ounces and can recharge your cellphone and has a 130db siren.

I don't plan on doing too many 10 star caches in the coming year unless they are overrated puzzles.

Why mountaineers would leave 2 ice axes and bags in a snow cave will never be answered.

My advice to mountain climbers on mountains with cliffs: carry the GPSr and waypoint each turn of more than 20 degrees. Stay away from the cliffs in good weather on the way up. Backtrack the waypoints in the dark or in bad weather and you're more likely to survive your trip. If you think you may have a problem on the way down, dig your snow cave before summiting and waypoint it. A couple of MRE's with the chemical heat pack could also save your life.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Hearing someone say "If I can't get out on that trapeze and get back without having to make use of that net, I have no business being out there" sounds really silly.

Actually I would agree with that statement. The net is a "backup". If you are a beginner, the net is a necessity. If you are a trapeze artist, and you can't perform without the net, you certainly do not have any business performing.

 

Although I am nowhere near in the league of the recent climbers in the news, I do have some climbing experience. Therefore, let me put this into the perspective of a climber:

 

The movies and cartoons always show two or more climbers tying a rope around their waist and climbing... somehow that is supposed to make them safer. In reality, all that would accomplish is making sure they all fell in rapid sequence if one of them slipped.

 

The climber's most basic piece of equipment is in fact his rope, but a climber who depends on the rope has no business climbing. I doubt that you will find many climbers that will disagree with that.

 

The rope, properly used, (NOT like in the movies) can be a life saver, but the rope is rarely used to assist the climber (that would be cheating ). In fact many climbers refuse to use a rope because it is a lot of extra weight.

 

If some climbers can justify deleting such a basic part of their equipment as a rope, why would you expect them to universally accept a GPSr?

 

Oh and actually.... if the trapeze artist DOES use the net (*SPLUT!*), he DIDN'T get out on that trapeze and back.

 

What I can't understand is why someone who is going to engange in mountain climbing would not carry personal locator beacon. This alleviates the need to communicate and would give search parties a smaller area to search. Owning one is expensive, however they can be rented.

Same as above, but I would consider making these devices availaable at base camps for people to rent or borrow when they are going on expeditions would be a MUCH better plan to help people that the OP is expecting to help with the supply caches.

 

I still think the problem with climbers, cachers and others doing whatever sport they like is complacency. After you've done it awhile, you get lazy, figure, well, heck, it's just a short hike, the weather's pretty good, I got enough backup stuff, and I'll just go home if the weather gets bad, etc. So you fail to take the GPS, or not tell anyone where you're going, or whatever, and fail to have the very thing you need to survive.

I think you hit the nail pretty well here. The better you get at what you do, the less you feel the need for the "net". With confidence often comes complacency and with that comes carelessness.

 

On the other hand, being prepared for every possible problem is simply not feasible. Compromises HAVE to be made and risks have to be personally evaluated and preparations made accordingly.

 

Let's see, do I carry those 3 extra carabiners, or the GPS...? The GPS is for if I get lost (10% chance), the carabiners are to protect me from a fall (70% chance) *makes "weighing" gestures with hands*...

 

It is ultimately a PERSONAL judgement call.

 

Ultimately, we really should not second guess people that get in trouble beyond attempting to learn from their mistakes. It is too easy to criticize from the safety of one's living room.

[+Mopar]

A Personal Locator Beacon, used promptly, probably would have made a difference in both cases. Yes they are expensive, but how much do you value your life? One can be had for as little as $549.00.

 

Try $400. Link

Maybe it's time to start thinking about adding one of these to the pack.

[+CM-14]

Here's an old idea that isn't as popular as it used to be:

 

How about people start learning to take care of themselves instead of expecting someone else to take care of them?

 

Here here.

[+eagletrek]

A Personal Locator Beacon, used promptly, probably would have made a difference in both cases. Yes they are expensive, but how much do you value your life? One can be had for as little as $549.00.

 

Try $400. Link

Maybe it's time to start thinking about adding one of these to the pack.

 

If you want one for that price you better be quick as it only pertains to 8 PLBs that were returned by a "military customer."

[+hikergps]

Here's an old idea that isn't as popular as it used to be:

 

How about people start learning to take care of themselves instead of expecting someone else to take care of them?

 

Here here.

 

OK. Let me add a twist to that. It may be a little on the edge, but lets get rid of law enforcement and fire services. Isn't there job to take care of people? Ever needed their service. Would you be ready do deal with your own rescue, and take care of yourself? Since I work in both fields and have seen "much stuff", I feel that I can reasonably say that this attitude is ludacris as it relates to this thread.

 

I am pretty sure that those 3 climbers did not go up Mt Hood with the attitude of "so what if we get into trouble, someone will come rescue us anyway". I'm also sure that Mr. Kim and family did not set out on their trip with a thought of the possiblilty that he would have to set out over land to find help for his family.

 

I just don't think that comment belongs in the same thread as what is being discussed. If that is your opinion, that is your opinion. Now you know mine.

 

Also, the operation was moved from rescue mode to recovery mode 2 days ago.

[+Alan2]

I think you're right in the Mt Hood and Kim cases. But what happens when some moron, who knows better, goes out with a devil-may-care attitude, gets into trouble, and then gets rescue people killed or hurt trying to save his a##. I think it's beautiful that there are people willing to take cahnces to rescue people, but it's also upsetting when they get hurt for some jackass. (Hmmm. might be me next time.)