Log This Cache My Way Or Else...

[+OzGuff]

A local cacher has deleted a number of my logs due to my "negativity." (Said "negativity" consisting of waypoints showing my coordinates at the cache site and a distance from the listed coordinates.) (There may be more to the story, likely not much more, but I won't go into that here.) I eventually decided to log his caches with "." -- no more, no less.

 

His latest cache contains this language, obviously directed at me:

Logs that are only symbols, icons, or punctuation marks are not acceptable logs and will be deleted. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete Any log for Any reason due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game.

 

I will find the cache and log it with something, but am interested in your collective wisdom on the practice of a cache owner requiring specific language or prohibiting certain words/symbols/icons in a Find log. Is a dot more offensive than TNLNSL? (I actually plan on logging the cache with the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. )

[+carleenp]

Distasteful or not, cache owners can delete logs as they see fit. There is no real free speech right there.

 

With that said, I find such things distasteful and tend to avoid caches with logging requirements or from owners who tend to delete such things. Then I don't have to worry about it.

[+TheAdventureBhoys]

My ten year old has a theory for those that get really bent out of shape over details that take the fun out of things: "Their underwear must be sized imporrperly".

 

Suppression may be overstating it, but sheesh, can't folks just let some of the things they don't like just pass on by?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Perhaps you should actually read that Amendment before basing your claims on it - It deals with supression of speech BY THE GOVERNMENT and not by any other entity or individual. Your employer, your preacher or the cache owner are free to edit or suppress your speech if and how they so desire!

 

You have forum guidelines here that surpress your speech BECAUSE Groundspeak isn't a government entity (yet!).

 

Perhaps logging a non-confrontational TNLN will solve the problem.

 

Good luck!

Ed

[+Monkeybrad]

Just checking, but OZ aren't you the guy who started a big forum thread because you were unhappy with the way some of us were logging caches in your area? Not wanting to rehash, just pointing out that everyone has an opinion as to how things should be done and that at the end of the day they are just that, opinions.

 

I will add that I think you are right, you found the cache, so your log should stay. I have had several logs on my caches that I disagree with, but they found the cache, so I will not delete them.

[+briansnat]

Deleting legit logs is unconscionable unless they contain profanity (or other inappropriate speech) or unwelcome spoilers. In the latter case I would at least give the finder the courtesy of asking him to remove the spoiler before I went ahead and deleted the log.

 

That said, if a cache owner wants to be a jerk that is his right. There are plenty of other caches out there, so I would just pass on his caches. If everybody starts doing that, then maybe he'd get the message, but I doubt it. A recent study has shown that 83.7 percent of jerks don't realize they are one.

Edited December 12, 2006 by briansnat

[+wimseyguy]

Another study pointed out that 94.7% of all statistics quoted on the internet are made up on the spot.

 

As already pointed out, the First Amendment doesn't apply here. That said, cache owners can delete any logs they want to, but would be gurks to do so just because they don't like the tone or text of a log.

 

Maybe you should hide a minimilist cache in retribution and require all of your local geopals to log it the way you like with punctuation marks?

[+nekom]

Some people take everything way too seriously. The first cache I placed got a pretty negative review early on. It's still there. I won't delete it, that's what one cacher thought of the cache, ok. It's gotten many positive logs since. I'd rather have honesty in logs than BS any day.

 

And as far as logging with ".", you're right there's little difference between that and the "TNLNSL, TFTC" which you see all the time?

 

Just another case of people needing to lighten up a little.

[+sbell111]

A local cacher has deleted a number of my logs due to my "negativity." ... (There may be more to the story, likely not much more, but I won't go into that here.) ...

I suspect that there is more to this story that, while unimportant to you, is very important to the cache owner.

 

Many people have posted in the forums that they basically have no qualms with posting snarky cache logs. Those that do this run the risk of irritating the owners of those caches and having their logs deleted. Is it right for the cache owners to do this? Probably not, but some cache finders do bring it upon themselves.

Edited December 12, 2006 by sbell111

[+emurock]

A local cacher has deleted a number of my logs due to my "negativity." (Said "negativity" consisting of waypoints showing my coordinates at the cache site and a distance from the listed coordinates.) (There may be more to the story, likely not much more, but I won't go into that here.) I eventually decided to log his caches with "." -- no more, no less.

 

His latest cache contains this language, obviously directed at me:

Logs that are only symbols, icons, or punctuation marks are not acceptable logs and will be deleted. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete Any log for Any reason due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game.

 

I will find the cache and log it with something, but am interested in your collective wisdom on the practice of a cache owner requiring specific language or prohibiting certain words/symbols/icons in a Find log. Is a dot more offensive than TNLNSL? (I actually plan on logging the cache with the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. )

Some people are just like that. If I were in this situation I would just forget about it and move on. Just my two cent's.

[+WalruZ]

The ignore button is your friend.

[+mtn-man]

Perhaps you should actually read that Amendment before basing your claims on it - It deals with supression of speech BY THE GOVERNMENT and not by any other entity or individual. Your employer, your preacher or the cache owner are free to edit or suppress your speech if and how they so desire!

 

You have forum guidelines here that surpress your speech BECAUSE Groundspeak isn't a government entity (yet!).

 

Perhaps logging a non-confrontational TNLN will solve the problem.

 

Good luck!

Ed

I almost thought about editing his first post just for the sake of proving a point, or for comedic benefit.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2006 by Keystone

[+Rich the Bushwhacker]

I've had run in's with a cacher or two in the local area. After a couple less than positive interactions with them, I ended up logging thier caches with a simple "Found It".

[+OienLabs]

This recently happened to me as well. I don't think I said anything nasty. I did send an eMail to equire why, but no answer. The solution is easy. Ignore and continue with other caches. Life is to short to be bothered with jerks.

[+Kealia]

Sounds like you'd be doing it just to irritate him/her.

 

Also sounds like a local pissing match that should be kept local.

 

Rallying support here won't gain either side anything.

[4wheelin_fool]

A local cacher has deleted a number of my logs due to my "negativity." (Said "negativity" consisting of waypoints showing my coordinates at the cache site and a distance from the listed coordinates.) (There may be more to the story, likely not much more, but I won't go into that here.) I eventually decided to log his caches with "." -- no more, no less.

 

His latest cache contains this language, obviously directed at me:

Logs that are only symbols, icons, or punctuation marks are not acceptable logs and will be deleted. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete Any log for Any reason due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game.

 

I will find the cache and log it with something, but am interested in your collective wisdom on the practice of a cache owner requiring specific language or prohibiting certain words/symbols/icons in a Find log. Is a dot more offensive than TNLNSL? (I actually plan on logging the cache with the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. )

 

They are his caches. If he does not want any negativity, I am sure you can be sarcastic in a positive upbeat way.

[+budd-rdc]

Government or not, the concept of free speech is meaningless to the intolerant.

 

You can always log more normally, "No problem finding the cache" without the TFTC if you feel the owner doesn't deserve thanks. If he deletes THAT, then you can rally for support since the owner might really have issues.

[+DiS02]

Me, I'd say just log it 'TNLNSL' & that is all.

 

Regardless of its a local pissing match or not doesnt matter, it was a legit question to ask here.

 

I'd also say 'blow off' to the cache owner as someone else said they have the wrong size panties on. You loss a smiley or two, big whoop.

 

I like pissing people off, specially those that live in glass houses themselves & try setting themselves up as the 'shining example of all that is good & holy in geocaching'. They always, *always* seem to have some skeletons hiding in their closet that can be used against them.

I dont do the 'its my way or the highway' when playing this game, unless its by TPTB of GC.com.

[Mushtang]

It sounds like an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR) cache to me. He states on the cache page what form the log must be in to avoid deletion.

 

Some people HATE ALR caches and refuse to do them, others think it's okay for the cache owner to dictate what is required in order to log a Find online.

 

If you don't like em, don't hunt em.

[+Sioneva]

I'd almost prefer the . to what one cacher places in logs - 'got'. Doesn't matter what the cache is, lamp post micro or beautiful, hard to get cache, it's always 'got'. Nothing more. It's kinda deflating... I love feedback. At least . would be something out of the ordinary!

[+wimseyguy]

Maybe they have a very limited vocabulary and imagination?

[Team CDCB]

You could always do a log like this one:

 

Cached this one and we had a lot

of fun on it. We didn't find it

originally, but after some thought we

re-searched and located it.

duh! We looked at the right place

so many time but didn't see it!

 

Really, I don't know how we missed it.

 

Well the important part is we found it.

ran into no muggle, but

out here we didn't expect any.

next time we just need to

go with our first instint I guess.

 

Thanks for the cache!

[+Thorminator]

You could always do a log like this one:

*Hahaha*

That one was just GREAT!!!

*Translating it, making it work in norwegian*

I just _gotta_ use that 1.

Thanks alot!!!

[+Mudfrog]

I suspect there's more to it than we are being told as well. If the OP did indeed post the facts about his experience with no obscenities added, then the log should have stayed. The owner is just too thin skinned and needs to get over it.

 

The other side of the coin, the cache owner's request that the logs be something besides puntuation marks seems ok to me. There's not too many of us who would want to see this kind of log come up routinely on our caches. I don't think this qualifies as an ALR cache. Posting "." is just a way of getting back at the cache owner because he/she made you upset.

 

Commentary and opinion follow: I very rarely describe my distaste for a cache unless it's one that i feel is dangerous or against GC.com guidelines. I'll post my concerns and coordinates if they seem to be off but otherwise, a short "found the cache, signed the log" works sufficient. I've never had a log deleted by the owner of those caches that i thought were lame. If i enjoyed the cache then it gets a longer log.

 

Bottom line is that we all need to be respectful of each other. Unfortunately, i just can't figure out why this is so hard to accomplish sometimes!

[+ReadyOrNot]

A local cacher has deleted a number of my logs due to my "negativity." (Said "negativity" consisting of waypoints showing my coordinates at the cache site and a distance from the listed coordinates.) (There may be more to the story, likely not much more, but I won't go into that here.) I eventually decided to log his caches with "." -- no more, no less.

 

His latest cache contains this language, obviously directed at me:

Logs that are only symbols, icons, or punctuation marks are not acceptable logs and will be deleted. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete Any log for Any reason due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game.

 

I will find the cache and log it with something, but am interested in your collective wisdom on the practice of a cache owner requiring specific language or prohibiting certain words/symbols/icons in a Find log. Is a dot more offensive than TNLNSL? (I actually plan on logging the cache with the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. )

 

The 1st ammendment does not only pertain to your rights, but to his rights as well. He's well within his rights to do whatever he wants with his cache. You are joking around when you say your constitutional rights have been violated, right?

 

Although, you may have a case. I've heard that the Supreme Court's docket is empty right now and they may just take the case.

[+New England n00b]

When you say you post the coordinates at the cache, do you do that on puzzle or multicaches? I'd delete it as well and ask you to relog without spoilers.

 

Do you do that on EVERY cache? I'd think you were being ...retentive..., but would not delete it if it were not a spoiler. With the variances in GPS reception at a given point, even the same unit could read different coordinates. If what you posted was within 30', I'd DEFINITELY think you were just being a jerk by posting "my coords are better than your coords" in a log when it is clearly unnecessary, but (sans spoilage) I would not delete it.

 

That said, it sounds like a little gurkage is bouncing back and forth here. Either work it out with the hider, or don't pursue their caches at all. It isn't worth it to get worked up over stupid things.

[+OzGuff]

Some interesting responses! And there is no doubt that gurkage is in evidence. But for those who question my motives, here is the first deleted log (without my posted coordinates); I'll let the readers judge whether this email should have been deleted or not:

Had some spare time so zipped around the area trying to find a few caches. Got to the area and my GPSr was pointing to the middle of a parking lot. Searched around a bit but was worried about the church office being very close. Called XXTHE FTFersXX to verify that the coordinates were off -- they agreed. When I finally found it the GPSr said a little over 100 feet. TNLNSL TFTC!

 

I understand that local "issues" should be kept local, so will get this thread closed now that I have a decent idea of the consensus. But I re-logged the same text after explaining that my logs are records of my experiences, and it was deleted again. Up until that point in time I had a decent relationship with the cacher. After having two other similar logs on different caches deleted I went to the ".".

 

And noob -- I would never reveal the coordinates to a puzzle or multi-cache in an online log. Not even for one of this guy's caches.

 

And I understand the differences between a government and a private institution with relation to free speech. I just threw that in to get more folks to check out the thread!

Edited December 13, 2006 by OzGuff

[+budd-rdc]

Too bad the owner misinterpreted your intentions (coordinates off) as hostile. You said you used to be friends with him, so we can rule out "coordinates deliberately off" as the reason, right?

 

I've seen some "." logs between disputed parties before. They weren't deleted. Maybe the owner in question could use some thicker skin.

[+Renegade Knight]

Make a stand on principal and never log that guy's caches again.

 

or

 

Cooperate and graduate (aka post a nice bland log and move on with life).

 

Those are pretty much the choices. Everone else has covered the rights issue, the silly log deletions etc.

[+Bad_CRC]

It's my opinion that people who delete logs because someone doesn't log the way they want (when it has no impact on the cache) are pathetic losers.

 

but, it's really nothing to do with free speech.

 

Freedom of speech is definitely something that should be defended more than it has been, and under the current administration it's in jeopardy and has been under serious attack for years now. But, free speech really has nothing to do with a jerk deleting logs they don't like. Nobody's stopping you from making your own cache that only allows a single character "." in any logs.

[+Kit Fox]

OzzGuff,

 

Why don't you make a visible bookmark on his page that states "found this cache, but the owner deleted my find?"

 

It's my opinion that people who delete logs because someone doesn't log the way they want (when it has no impact on the cache) are pathetic losers.

 

but, it's really nothing to do with free speech.

 

Freedom of speech is definitely something that should be defended more than it has been, and under the current administration it's in jeopardy and has been under serious attack for years now. But, free speech really has nothing to do with a jerk deleting logs they don't like. Nobody's stopping you from making your own cache that only allows a single character "." in any logs.

 

Let me guess President Bush had something to do with OzGuff's log being deleted?

[+sbell111]

OzzGuff,

 

Why don't you make a visible bookmark on his page that states "found this cache, but the owner deleted my find?"

How in the world would that help his situation? As it stands, it is a simply misunderstanding among fellow cachers. A quick conversation will resolve it. Your alternative could only result in warfare for the foreseeable future.

[+BlueDeuce]

Make a stand on principal and never log that guy's caches again.

 

or

 

Cooperate and graduate (aka post a nice bland log and move on with life).

 

Those are pretty much the choices. Everone else has covered the rights issue, the silly log deletions etc.

 

Agreed.

 

(That's the spirit, lend a hand!)

[+Kit Fox]

OzzGuff,

 

Why don't you make a visible bookmark on his page that states "found this cache, but the owner deleted my find?"

How in the world would that help his situation? As it stands, it is a simply misunderstanding among fellow cachers. A quick conversation will resolve it. Your alternative could only result in warfare for the foreseeable future.

 

The owner recently deleted many of OzGuff's found it logs. I highly doubt this is still a "simple misunderstanding." I also highly doubt the "quick conversation route. After reading the efforts that Ozguff has made, I'm for not logging any of this person's caches, and a visible bookmark.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Bummer that heshe deleted your logs, but then you are putting too much worth on a number in your profile too, IMO.

 

The sun will rise tomorrow and there are more caches to find. What the hey, grab a torch and go find one TONIGHT!

 

You can't win. Let it go.

 

OBTW I now have 429,466.25 finds.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Perhaps you should actually read that Amendment before basing your claims on it - It deals with supression of speech BY THE GOVERNMENT and not by any other entity or individual. Your employer, your preacher or the cache owner are free to edit or suppress your speech if and how they so desire!

 

You have forum guidelines here that surpress your speech BECAUSE Groundspeak isn't a government entity (yet!).

 

Perhaps logging a non-confrontational TNLN will solve the problem.

 

Good luck!

Ed

I couldn't say it better.

[+ReadyOrNot]

It's my opinion that people who delete logs because someone doesn't log the way they want (when it has no impact on the cache) are pathetic losers.

 

but, it's really nothing to do with free speech.

 

Freedom of speech is definitely something that should be defended more than it has been, and under the current administration it's in jeopardy and has been under serious attack for years now. But, free speech really has nothing to do with a jerk deleting logs they don't like. Nobody's stopping you from making your own cache that only allows a single character "." in any logs.

 

HEY! I'm a recovering pathetic loser and I take offense to that! And just out of curiousity, where exactly is your freedom of speech being threatened? Upset because you can't make those calls to Al Qaida operatives oversees? I know!! It's the right to "assemble a militia of foreign terrorists" that is getting stomped on?

 

Okee dokee.. Back to the topic.. I agree with you completely that this is definitely not an issue of freedom of speech.

[markandlynn]

or

log the cache via WAP that way the owner get's no email notification

[CoyoteRed]

...am interested in your collective wisdom on the practice of a cache owner requiring specific language or prohibiting certain words/symbols/icons in a Find log.

 

I keep an offline record of finds. If I don't feel like logging a cache, I just mark it as found locally and click the ignore button. If a cache owner deletes my log for some reason, I shrug and move on. It doesn't happen a lot. I guess because the caches that would get a negative log generally doesn't get a log at all. No skin off my nose.

 

I can certainly understand the frustration of those who want to keep their records online as this service is provided by Groundspeak. I think a lot of cache owners misunderstand their role in policing the logs. They don't own the logs. They don't own the find. They are charged with making sure the logs are reasonably accurate with log types, are not offensive, and doesn't compromise the integrity of the cache or hobby. Some folks overstep these bounds and many more think owners own the logs--as if they own my words or have the ability to with them what they will.

 

True, they have the ability to delete a log. What they don't have the ability to do is delete a bookmark. Some might argue this feature might be abused. True. I see it little different than the abuse of vindictively deleting logs. With any authority comes responsibility and accountability. It is only without accountability that abuse can fester.

 

I also find it ironic that a person who deletes logs vindictively is relying on the integrity of the very person they are attacking. Be that way and your caches could start coming up missing more often than average. This really is a hobby based on a deep trust in others. Without it this hobby wouldn't exist.

 

EDIT: clarity, somewhat.

Edited December 13, 2006 by CoyoteRed

[+sbell111]

... Upset because you can't make those calls to Al Qaida operatives oversees? I know!! It's the right to "assemble a militia of foreign terrorists" that is getting stomped on? ...

Wow. When you roll off-topic, you do it in a big way.

[+sbell111]

The owner recently deleted many of OzGuff's found it logs. I highly doubt this is still a "simple misunderstanding." I also highly doubt the "quick conversation route. After reading the efforts that Ozguff has made, I'm for not logging any of this person's caches, and a visible bookmark.

Before this all happened, they were friendly. A logging misunderstanding caused the deletions. I have no doubt that some friendly in-person communication could resolve it.

[+ReadyOrNot]

... Upset because you can't make those calls to Al Qaida operatives oversees? I know!! It's the right to "assemble a militia of foreign terrorists" that is getting stomped on? ...

Wow. When you roll off-topic, you do it in a big way.

 

For what it's worth - "He started it!"

[+emurock]

You could always do a log like this one:

 

Cached this one and we had a lot

of fun on it. We didn't find it

originally, but after some thought we

re-searched and located it.

duh! We looked at the right place

so many time but didn't see it!

 

Really, I don't know how we missed it.

 

Well the important part is we found it.

ran into no muggle, but

out here we didn't expect any.

next time we just need to

go with our first instint I guess.

 

Thanks for the cache!

Great idea.

[+OzGuff]

The owner recently deleted many of OzGuff's found it logs. I highly doubt this is still a "simple misunderstanding." I also highly doubt the "quick conversation route. After reading the efforts that Ozguff has made, I'm for not logging any of this person's caches, and a visible bookmark.

Before this all happened, they were friendly. A logging misunderstanding caused the deletions. I have no doubt that some friendly in-person communication could resolve it.

I don't think so. Logs have been deleted a number of times, all when I comment on my GPS not agreeing with his GPS. Apparently the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system are calling his manhood into question. (Don't you hate it when an inadvertant double entendre occurs! ) Multiple emails requesting that my logs NOT be deleted have been ignored.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I also find it ironic that a person who deletes logs vindictively is relying on the integrity of the very person they are attacking. ...

 

I have found that a lot of mean and nasty people place their trust and faith in the very people they are abusing. They trust us to not retaliate and take their caches. They trust us to not key their car for blasting into our parking space. They trust us to not report a death threat or worse (for them) act on it and remove the threat, and so on. By and large people are trustworthy in this bad way. It makes it easier for evil people to keep it up.

[+Renegade Knight]

... Logs have been deleted a number of times, all when I comment on my GPS not agreeing with his GPS. Apparently the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system are calling his manhood into question....

 

I've been in a similar situation. Logs were not deleted but rants and emails ensued. The guys coordinates were 250' off and I made a comment (didn't post the right ones though...) so the owner could fix it. The cache page got edited about how accurate the coordinates were. A note was posted that he was an Engineer and by gosh knew what coordinates were and knew they were right and dang it I was a moron to even think such things. In so many words.

 

The following logs from my fellow cachers were like mana from heaven. The Engineer finally figured it out.

 

In your case, I'm sorry that the dispute carried into the logs.

[+sbell111]

The owner recently deleted many of OzGuff's found it logs. I highly doubt this is still a "simple misunderstanding." I also highly doubt the "quick conversation route. After reading the efforts that Ozguff has made, I'm for not logging any of this person's caches, and a visible bookmark.

Before this all happened, they were friendly. A logging misunderstanding caused the deletions. I have no doubt that some friendly in-person communication could resolve it.

I don't think so. Logs have been deleted a number of times, all when I comment on my GPS not agreeing with his GPS. Apparently the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system are calling his manhood into question. (Don't you hate it when an inadvertant double entendre occurs! ) Multiple emails requesting that my logs NOT be deleted have been ignored.

You probably right. Since you kept up the email drama, a personal conversation might not resolve it, any more. BTW, if the differences in coords were due to 'the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system', why did you post corrected coords. Do you think that maybe you inflamed the situation?

[+flask]

every once in a while one of my logs gets deleted.

 

in one the cache owner said not to post photos of the rock that supplied the answer. hundreds of feet from the answer rock i found a different rock with some interesting grafitti. i posted a picture of that. my log was deleted.

 

there was a cache for which i made up a pack of lies in the log. big lies. the guy deleted it, believing that i was giving hints about another cache; i don't know where or what.

 

in another (a DNF) i said that a pretty view is not reason enough to keep a cache active when one knows the container has been gone for months.

 

 

my happy solution is that i simply take the deleted log and post it elsewhere, but it's linked from my "caches for which my logs have been deleted" bookmark list.

 

it does not matter to me that i never get to log the cache as found. the important thing is the story.

[+TexasGringo]

I don't care what they put in the logs, if they found the cache...they can write what they want.

 

They can even post pictures...because the next Cacher still has to get to the cache to sign the log book...there is no easy way out for that.

 

I just don't want them to put that Bottled Bubble GOO in the caches.

Edited December 13, 2006 by GURU4HIRE

[+OzGuff]

The owner recently deleted many of OzGuff's found it logs. I highly doubt this is still a "simple misunderstanding." I also highly doubt the "quick conversation route. After reading the efforts that Ozguff has made, I'm for not logging any of this person's caches, and a visible bookmark.

Before this all happened, they were friendly. A logging misunderstanding caused the deletions. I have no doubt that some friendly in-person communication could resolve it.

I don't think so. Logs have been deleted a number of times, all when I comment on my GPS not agreeing with his GPS. Apparently the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system are calling his manhood into question. (Don't you hate it when an inadvertant double entendre occurs! ) Multiple emails requesting that my logs NOT be deleted have been ignored.

You probably right. Since you kept up the email drama, a personal conversation might not resolve it, any more. BTW, if the differences in coords were due to 'the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system', why did you post corrected coords. Do you think that maybe you inflamed the situation?

If my coordinates differ substantially (80+ feet) from the posted coordinates I usually take a waypoint and add it to my online log. I did this initially to help other cachers, but apparently now I do it to piss off cache owners.