outdoor apparel reviews

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

OK I'm a noob here in Western NY..(buffalo)...i am interested in a quality 3n1 jacket...I've been to all the quality retailers and checked out their wares...Columbia, Timberland, Oakley, Nautica, Eddie Bauer, you get the idea...what I'm looking for is a user review if you own a 3-n-1 system that costs less than 200 dollars. Buffalo winters can be bad...but the next day could bring 50 degree weather...don't wanna have keep switching coats to go out...just layers... you know like onions have layers..like ogres...wait..sorry a tangent there...OK let me know what you have, approx cost, pros/cons...

 

Disclaimer: I solemnly swear I am up to no good...wait another tangent...seems to be movie related again...I promise not to sell or trade any information you give me...just file it in with the plethora of useless knowledge i can't seem to remember!

 

thanx!!!!!!

 

1/5 of FFof5

[+NightPilot]

Best one I've had was from L. L. Bean. Mine is 7 or 8 years old, maybe older, and still in use. I don't use the heavy liner that often down here, but it's nice now and then, and the shell has seen heavy use and still looks relatively new.

[+dlawson1]

I have a Timberland and I love it... it isnt a 3in1, but for a winter jacket it is great.

[+briansnat]

The LL Bean jackets are a good deal. I really like their Stormchaser 3 in 1 jackets. Lots of nice features.

[mtbikernate]

3in1 jacket systems are overrated marketing hype. You can achieve the same (or better) performance out of separate layering pieces.

 

Furthermore, there's better stuff out there than the brands you mentioned above. Look into Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, Cloudveil, Arc'Teryx, Patagonia, MontBell, GoLite, REI, EMS, Integral Designs, and more.

 

Several of the above mfrs/retailers have 3in1 systems. So far, the best ones of the bunch do NOT have zip-in liners, but only attach the liners with snap tabs/loops. This allows the liner to move independently of the shell, offering more comfortable movement, elimination of cold spots, and increased versatility. In all practicality, though, 3in1 systems reduce the overall flexibility of your layering system and the specific garments you can wear. Say you go out and buy a 3in1. More often than not, you get a decent shell and a crap insulating layer (even with the $200+ systems), and especially if you buy one of the budget models. If you decide you want a different insulating layer, you are limited in selection to layers compatible with your shell, which may or may not include improvements to what came with the system in the first place. If you buy an incompatible insulating layer, then you've effectively just bought two separate pieces.

 

I advocate buying separate layering pieces from the start. You want a wp/b shell and a variety of insulating layers for temps above freezing so you can customize your clothes for the weather. For moderately cold subfreezing temps, a light down sweater or synthetic fill jacket (like Primaloft) is the way to go. For serious cold weather, nothing beats a baffled down jacket or parka. For subfreezing temps, you really don't need goretex or any of that. The water is solid, so every fabric (as far as jackets are concerned) is waterproof. At that point, the only thing goretex will do for you is increase the amount of sweating you do.

 

Beware of how you wear your fleece. Fleece is most effective when it has an athletic cut or otherwise wears close to your body. Fleece is extremely effective at managing moisture, but only when it's close to your skin (not necessarily next to your skin...you can wear other layers beneath it, but it must fit close). Bulky fleece with too much room between the fabric and your skin encourages AIR movement, which makes everything drafty. If you need additional insulation, wear a synthetic fill or down fill jacket over the fleece.

 

One thing you do want is a shell that's durable enough to handle the bushwhacking you're likely to engage in while geocaching. Most of the less expensive, lighter weight shells will not be built to that standard.

 

Lastly, but most importantly, you need to stay far away from cotton. Cotton retains moisture, and when worn next to your skin (think t-shirts, lots of underwear, and blue jeans) in the wintertime, that absorbed moisture transports heat away from your body. On short outings, it means that the expensive outerwear you have over your cotton won't keep you as warm. On longer outings or extreme conditions, it can mean the difference between life and death.

 

Here is what I view as the ideal outerwear system that should cover the vast majority of conditions you should encounter:

TOPS

*synthetic (polypro or other) or wool (smartwool or other merino wool) base layer. Available in different weights depending on conditions.

*100 or lightweight fleece vest

*200 or midweight fleece jacket

*synthetic fill jacket or down sweater (designed to be worn underneath a shell) w/o hood

*wp/b shell (goretex, marmot precip, mountain hardwear epic, etc) w/hood

*down jacket or parka (designed to be worn as outer layer in very cold temps) w/hood

BOTTOMS

*synthetic or merino wool long underwear

*nylon or polyester convertible hiking pants...some are available with a fleece liner if you want extra warmth

*fleece pants (if especially cold weather or you are an especially cold-bodied person)

*wp/b shell pants

SOCKS/HAT/GLOVES/FOOTWEAR

*merino wool or synethetic socks (variety of weights/thicknesses...make sure they fit inside your footwear because if they're too tight inside your shoes/boots, your feet will be COLDER because of restricted bloodflow)

*windstopper fleece hat

*windstopper fleece or softshell gloves

*goretex or similar wp/b winter gloves with liner

*uninsulated footwear (if you can only buy one pair, get leather+goretex boots, but if you can afford multiples, buy at least one gtx pair and one non-gtx pair)

*insulated winter boots

*gaiters

 

It's a lot to consider, and you don't have to go out and buy it all at once. This is an ideal system. The most important parts would be the underwear and socks. NO COTTON!!!! FYI, I would not refer to all of those retailers you mentioned as quality. Nautica and Oakley are crap quality-wise, and more concerned with style/fashion. The other three, I would consider mid-range and would certainly consider (though they are more fashion-focused than function-focused, they aren't bad...and columbia owns mountain hardwear, one I would consider high-end). At any rate, with a layering system as described above, you could find yourself comfortable in just about any weather you're likely to encounter while geocaching (and probably some weather where you'd rather stay at home).

 

Friends don't let friends buy 3-in-1 systems.

[+stoneswivel]

You can achieve the same (or better) performance out of separate layering pieces.

<snip>

Friends don't let friends buy 3-in-1 systems.

Very thorough review of the topic, and I concur with everything presented. 3-in-1s are fine if you have money to burn, but aren't as cost-effective as retailers might have you think. I bought one for my fashion-conscious 15 year-old daughter, but my stuff is all piece-parts, and largely from mtbikernate's ensemble.

 

One thing mtbikernate touched upon that I'd amplify is a bushwhacking layer. If you're on a budget (and in an area with thorns of one sort or another), your outer layers are not likely to be sturdy enough to withstand the assault. There's nothing worse than having your expensive fill jacket shredded, unless it's turning back from a great cache to save it! I like a heavy canvas (think Carhartt, though you can get a knockoff for less) layer in the fall, and have worn it in warmer weather on the more insane bushwhacks. In Buffalo (which I'd be in now, but for the vagaries of corporate fate), I might buy a size larger to fit over mid-layers. I also have a pair of heavy canvas poly-lined overalls I use all the time, even here in N TX.

 

I'd also add Ex Officio to the list of retailers to check out. They don't have much stuff warmer than a sweater, but the stuff they do have is first-rate, particularly the all-important base layer/underwear.

[Tahosa and Sons]

Oh can I remember those winters in Upstate NY, man they were nasty ones. But CO is cold and dry and I use several methods of layering. And don't forget a pack to put the extra layers in when you shed clothes or need to find more.

Layers:

1. Fishnet Underware
   
2. Duofold (Wool & Thermax Blend)
   
3. Wool Shirt
   
4. 200 weight Polartec Jacket
   
5. Goretex Liner or Heavy Wool Jacket
   

Sometimes I use a vest if its warmer out or as an extra layer if its real cold 0° or below. Wool Pants or Fleece with a wind shell work real well on the legs. And you can do layers with your socks and head gear also.

And here is a link that I use in classes about the effects of cold.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Tahosa and Sons

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

OK...thanks for the heads up....i shall commence research....also thnks for helping me to retain my money and to spend it wisely...so it looks like the jackets at the army surplus store may be what i want for my outer layer and build around that....will this work?

 

thnax again for all your input....

 

Scott 1/5 of FFof5

[+briansnat]

OK...thanks for the heads up....i shall commence research....also thnks for helping me to retain my money and to spend it wisely...so it looks like the jackets at the army surplus store may be what i want for my outer layer and build around that....will this work?

 

thnax again for all your input....

 

Scott 1/5 of FFof5

 

Watch the army surplus jackets. A lot of them are cotton or a cotton blend. Do not buy cotton clothing for winter use.

[mtbikernate]

Instead of army surplus or carhartt heavy cotton canvas, I would look for a high denier ripstop nylon shell to use as a bushwhack layer.

 

The reason why is the moisture retention issue I mentioned above. Here's a likely scenario:

 

Wearing good midweight fleece and synthetic long underwear with a carhartt jacket on a 15 deg day. It's sunny when you leave your vehicle, and the bushwhack to the cache is strenuous. You generate a lot of sweat, which your base and middle layers handle well. Your cotton shell, however, soaks up all that moisture and gets heavy. With the heat you're putting out, it's not a huge deal, but the extra weight makes you work harder.

 

You reach the cache and start to cool off. Clouds move in and the wind picks up. Your wet cotton carhartt jacket begins to freeze. You now have a completely impermeable shell. You get chilly at the cache, so you hurry up and get moving again. The stiffness of your frozen cotton shell makes you work really hard, and the cold temperature of it feels pretty rotten on your skin. The fact that all the holes in the fabric are now occupied by ice makes it incredibly stuffy inside, and moisture starts to build up as your inner layers can no longer cope with your sweat. The icy shell makes that moisture cold and if you're very far from your vehicle, you run a serious risk of succumbing to hypothermia.

 

The phrase, "Cotton Kills" is especially true in the wintertime. Every year, folks die in the woods because they wore cotton clothing in inclement weather.

 

Carhartt and similar clothing is absolutely fine as heavy duty work wear when you're not far from a heated home or car. Many caches would be fine to do in such clothing in the winter, but there are enough out there that require enough hiking that you can get yourself into trouble with the wrong clothing in wintertime.

 

Additionally, since you're in the snow belt, you probably want to make sure you invest in some snowshoes. You don't need to worry about these as much as with your clothing. Snowshoes from LL Bean or Cabelas would be fine and save you a few bucks (these are usually made by Atlas, Tubbs, or Redfeather, anyway).

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

ok makes sense...I'll continue to do some research...may just use what i have and stick with the Cache and dashes for the winter. I usually take my 6 and 3 year old boys with me...so long winter hikes this year are out. Thanx again for all your input...whoever said "ignorance is bliss" never counted on it to possibly kill you!!!!

 

Scott

[mtbikernate]

Death is certainly an extreme circumstance. You're much more likely to just be very uncomfortable. Still, you don't want to push your luck in an area where subzero temps, howling winds, and feet of snow are a regular occurrence.

 

I have personally encountered -30F actual air temp, and there's no margin for error there.

[+Sherman T. Potter]

I've found www.sierratradingpost.com to have outstanding deals on quality gear. Give them a look-see.....

 

Nate

[+briansnat]

I've found www.sierratradingpost.com to have outstanding deals on quality gear. Give them a look-see.....

 

Nate

 

Agreed. I buy much of my outdoor wear from them.

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

A guy here at work suggested the same thing. He spent a good amount of time in Oregon. Thanks for all the help... I think I'll wait for spring and see what pops up for clearance.!!!!

 

scott

Edited December 12, 2006 by FerrisFamilyof5

[+briansnat]

A guy here at work suggested the same thing. He spent a good amount of time in Oregon. Thanks for all the help... I think I'll wait for spring and see what pops up for clearance.!!!!

 

scott

 

Its always clearance time at Sierra Trading Post. That is their entire business.

Edited December 12, 2006 by briansnat

[mtbikernate]

www.campmor.com

www.steepandcheap.com

www.rei.com

www.ems.com

www.backpackgeartest.org

 

All excellent sites with some deals to be had (except the last one, which is a site for reviews). The majority of my equipment comes from the above retailers (including sierra trading post), with a smaller amount purchased straight from small cottage manufacturers.

Edited December 12, 2006 by mtbikernate

[+Sherman T. Potter]

Oh how I miss those days when I lived in the Bay Area and could go to the North Face outlet in Berkley!! Gearhead Heaven!!

[mtbikernate]

TNF is not what they used to be.

[+Colorado Cacher]

No matter which E-store you go through be sure to check if Fatwallet.com has them as a store, and then sign up to get your cashback as well first.

[+Sherman T. Potter]

TNF is not what they used to be.

I guess all those 'homies running around the 'hood in North Face down vest don't care about quality.

That said, my Mountain Light gore-tex jacket I puchased 12 years ago is still going strong....as is all the gear I own by TNF. Maybe one day it will blow out a zipper and they'll send me a new one!!

[+briansnat]

TNF is not what they used to be.

I guess all those 'homies running around the 'hood in North Face down vest don't care about quality.

That said, my Mountain Light gore-tex jacket I puchased 12 years ago is still going strong....as is all the gear I own by TNF. Maybe one day it will blow out a zipper and they'll send me a new one!!

 

Once you start seeing a brand out on the street and their stores in the mall it's a sure sign its going downhill. I rembember when Timberland shoes were the best. I had a pair of Timberlands that lasted 10 years. When I replaced them, the next pair didn't make it a year before they ripped.

 

TNF does have some good stuff still, but you have to be careful. A lot of it is made to wear to the mall, not Mt Mckinley these days

.

[+Renegade Knight]

The LL Bean jackets are a good deal. I really like their Stormchaser 3 in 1 jackets. Lots of nice features.

 

How do they compare to the Columbia Titanium? My newer Titanium isn't as nice as the older one for pockets and the like. As for waterproof and that it's fine. Just not as many features as the old ones.

[+briansnat]

The LL Bean jackets are a good deal. I really like their Stormchaser 3 in 1 jackets. Lots of nice features.

 

How do they compare to the Columbia Titanium? My newer Titanium isn't as nice as the older one for pockets and the like. As for waterproof and that it's fine. Just not as many features as the old ones.

 

Its not quite as water resistant as my wife's Titanium, but it has lots of well thought out pockets.

[namiboy]

i would throw some suggestions out there, but living down here in the beautiful lauderdale/boca area i just don't have any...sorry.

[+Sherman T. Potter]

i would throw some suggestions out there, but living down here in the beautiful lauderdale/boca area i just don't have any...sorry.

Dude,

Gore-Tex was designed for the rain.....which you guys have plenty of!!

 

STP

[namiboy]

i would throw some suggestions out there, but living down here in the beautiful lauderdale/boca area i just don't have any...sorry.

Dude,

Gore-Tex was designed for the rain.....which you guys have plenty of!!

 

STP

 

you are correct sir, but op was about layering...although...

i do layer my beach towel over my trunks to change to dry shorts when leaving the beach...

[+Sherman T. Potter]

i would throw some suggestions out there, but living down here in the beautiful lauderdale/boca area i just don't have any...sorry.

Dude,

Gore-Tex was designed for the rain.....which you guys have plenty of!!

 

STP

 

you are correct sir, but op was about layering...although...

i do layer my beach towel over my trunks to change to dry shorts when leaving the beach...

touche.

[CMSoliday]

FFof5,

I agree that mtbikernate has nailed this (layering is the key), but you mentioned jackets at the army surplus store and then brainsnat warned that “a lot of them are cotton or cotton blend” and the topic got dropped.

 

Though brainsnat is correct, key in on “a lot of them” meaning not all of them. I suggest you check out the surplus store and look for the modern military Gore-Tex outer shell. I am a Marine and I have used the same Gore-Tex outer shell set (jacket, pants, and gloves) each winter since 93. I have thrashed though the thick and full mountains in Albania, scrambled the rocks in the Samaria Gorge, hunted in PA, skied in MD, and worked on helicopters in VA – all in this same shell and never once has it let water in or been effected by the thickest of thorns! The cheep military polypropylene is also a score for your under layer. The boots: the military made a winter boot called a “firewalker” and it was made generically by Maverick – these are heavy but a very good bang for the buck.

 

So, in short: don’t skip the surplus store just because my father had to ware a cotton field jacket! Cheers,

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

Thanx for the heads up. I work less than a mile from a major surplus store (Uncle Sam's). I'll be sure to head over on a lunch break soon. For right now here is what I have come up with. I received a very nice fleece from my work by WearGuard. It is 3 season rated, has loops for the cuffs to hold it in a shell and is vapor permeable. I have a Pacific Trail wind breaker (Sears) that I have had for about 11 years now (in very good condition) that I wear for the outer layer. Unfortunately it is not weatherproof, but definitely stops the wind. I have not faced any extreme weather so to speak, it's been unusually mild here in Western NY. (I'm not complaining since it's 50 and sunny as I type this, it allowed me a lunch cache trip) I also found a weather proof vest at Sam's Club by Weatherproof. Now for boots...should we start this now?

 

Scott

[mtbikernate]

Boots are much tougher to dial in, because fit is such an individual thing. With boots, your best bet is to go to a reputable outdoor store and try on whatever they've got that meets your needs (waterproof, insulated, ventilated, ankle support, whatever). As for boots, in the past few years, I've worn Cabelas, Asolo, and Vasque boots along with Merrell, Salomon, and New Balance shoes and I've been pretty happy with all of them. Granted, it took me a LONG time to find the ones that would work for me. I probably tried on a good 10+ pairs of footwear for every pair that I bought.

[CMSoliday]

Currently, I use a Vasque mountain running shoe for most of my ventures. Unlike a regular running shoe, it has a stiff shank and ankle cup to make it very sturdy and it also keeps pointy rocks from being felt by the foot. It has Gore-Tex and is waterproof.

[CMSoliday]

Hay, by the way, two people in the picture “passingwind” posted in the “CITO 2006: photos photos photos, Show off your best shot!” are wearing the Gore-Tex military jacket I mentioned.

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

wanna look.... but where do i find

[+NightPilot]

Here. The search feature does work now and then.

[CMSoliday]

Thanks NightPilot, I am not good at creating links. Nice Sikorsky by the way! I have 2000 hours between a CH-46e and a VH-60N with 400 on goggles. I was a Crew Chief (In-flight Mechanic) in the USMC for 8 years.

 

Scott, the nice thing about this jacket is how light it is. That makes it work nicely for layering. You will be just as comfortable in it on a light spring day as you will with layers in some serious cold climates. It has built in vent zippers in the arm-pits allowing you to cool off if you’re over dressed. It also has what is called a shooting pocket which is a Velcro flap by the chest zipper. Most who own it don’t even know it is there. It allows you to hold your weapon with a gloved left hand, and you can put your bare shooting hand inside this pocket between shots. While geocaching, you can stash your GPS there or your compass etc leaving the main pockets for your hands.

 

Here is a link for one at $55 - http://www.elanstores.com/newcart/shop/pro...hp?panum=162105

[+FerrisFamilyof5]

Just got back from the surplus store. They have the Gor-Tex shells. Slighly imperfect (used) for 50.00. they have new desert camo for 69.95. the only thing i could not find was the pocket you spoke of. There are two "hand" pockets and a pocket on the left sleeve that has a flap.

 

50 bucks + tax is 54.38 and i can wear it home.!

 

now i just gotta get the bank (wife) to give me a loan!

 

thanx for all the help

 

Scott