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Geocaching in danger


jbsings2266

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All depends on the area and the cachers who partake of it.

 

We are working hard with managers around us to try to remain in good standing. Arizona geocachers have at least 2 areas adopted with regular cleanups and HUGE signs.

 

We have had the City and County come and meet with us at a cleanup. Things like this help, IMHO, when it comes to showing a land manager that you will be working hard to keep things around 'YOUR' area cleaner then they already are.

 

Arizona has thousands of tons of trash in the desert from our um... neighbors.. Yet geocachers get told not to leave something behind that people actually WANT to find. As such, I can only say that I feel I am gaining ground with a couple of Rangers out here and it may be better for us soon. <_<

 

The sky is not falling, but local cachers who destroy an area to search for a micro dont help the cause :huh:

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I always thought it was kind of funny that deer can make hundreds of trails all over the woods and no one gives it a second thought.

 

Actually they do. In NJ they hire professional hunters in some areas to thin the deer herd and cut down on damage to the forest. Hopefully they don't start doing that with geocachers too, or I'm moving.

 

What ! Really, ? I lived in Parsippany NJ late eigthies and the increase in deer density was because they were cutting down forest and building all over the place ! Often the issue is habitat destruction, urban sprawling.

 

OK, in farm land, food supply being high the herds prosper and you have to cull them. Deer tend to feed on tree bark if food is lacking during winter time and feed on buds during spring. I am suprised they have to get professional hunters, regular hunters should be enough, if not enough hunter in NJ, don't hesitate to contact me.

Have gun, will travel ! <_<

 

Since may this year, I already shot 8 wild boars and 3 roebuck deers plus a few foxes and of course without endangering the species. Look like global warming helps a lot by reducing winter mortality and impoving food availability.

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QUOTE(mtn-man @ Dec 6 2006, 06:06 AM)

 

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

 

QUOTE

mtm-man:

 

Do they charge hunters to use the National Forest too? (I'm not talking about a hunting license here. That money goes to the state.) How about Hikers?

 

If only geocachers are charged a fee it seems like not all groups are treated equally.

 

I'd like to know what your permit entails too. Does it just cover you or a group?

Sometimes I wonder where it will all end.

$5.00 for swimming?

$2.00 for frisbee playing?

$8.00 for fishing?

$10.00 for picnicing?

$25.00 for hunting?

$40.00 for camping?

$3.00 for sandbox use?

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Amazing how we can destroy the environment just by walking and poking about. Ever seen what bears do to trees? Seriously, the next time you fly across the country look down at how much land can not even be accessed by people. The land accessed by foot traffic is just the tip of the iceberg. We can't see the land where people don't go, because we are people and we don't go there. All we see are the places where people do go and we think it's representative of the whole world, somehow.

 

Incidentally, we could reduce that nasty greenhouse gas, CO2, simply by plowing over the forests and replanting. Just think of all of the carbon we'd remove from the atmosphere. :wub:

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ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

 

:huh:

:cry:

 

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

I would be interested in the steps you took to achieve this monumental feat.

I'll answer this one and try to cover other comments as well.

 

Way back, we found out that within a day or two they were going to issue a press release banning all geocaches in the FS areas in GA. ~erik~ and I are on the Steering Committee (SC) for the GA Geocachers Assn (GGA). We asked for a meeting with several of the FS members and we got a lunch with about four of them. We gave a short presentation talking about the good things geocachers do, including the CITO work and the fact that many geocachers are hikers and outdoors people and had valid concerns about damage to the environment. We talked about the massive CITO effort in an NPS area. We talked about our overwhelming support from our local US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE). We have done some big CITO work with the USACE folks and have been responsive to areas where caches were placed in sensative areas. We also talked about frequency of visits and compared them to other uses of the NF areas, such as hikers, hunters and fishermen. We had a lot of data and a good story to tell. We were told they would hold the press release and do further study based on the new information. The study took a long time. We were continually told to be patient. We were. It was hard, but we remained patient but vigilent. Eventually Trez* from our SC took over the last part of the negotiations and we got the news our permit was approved. We have some tough guidelines now though, including a half mile separation between caches. The $100 was for the permit application and we could have been turned down. It was paid for by the GGA and the permit covers all geocachers in GA.

 

So, a $100 blanket permit is a bad precedent? Wouldn't an all out ban be worse?

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I think Geocaching and Environmentalism are very very compatible. Anything that gets folks away from the boob-tube and gets them outside in nature and moving is bound to be good. But I have seen caches placed in off the beaten trail areas and guess what, there are new trails made from folks trekking out to the cache. We as a geocaching community need to be aware that if we place a cache far from the trail, yeah it’s a 4 or 5 difficulty, but will a new trail be created by folks rushing grab a hot Geocoin hidden in the cache. Before you place a cache, ask yourself, “How will this cache affect the surrounding environment and its solitude, beauty, natural treasures, and enjoyment by others.

 

Being a backpacker, way before I was into Geocaching, let me express a few rules of "No Trace" hiking and packing:

 

1. Take only pictures and leave only footprints--this includes things like cigarette butts and toilet paper. (It’s not fun, but in arid areas that TP will hang around for a year. Do you wanna be hiking in the wilderness and stumble upon a pile of used TP in the woods? You could bury it, but what happens when an animal digs it up?) So bring a Ziploc bag and pack it out. Ask any backpacker, if it goes into the wilderness – it comes back out. Geocachers should follow the same rule.

 

2. Take a bag and pack out the trash left behind by some bone head that wasn't nice enough to pick up after him or her self. i.e. “Cache in – Trash Out. Sure we all are supposed to be doing this, but do we?

 

3. Stay on the trail! If that means walking through mud, walk through it, but stay on the trail. This is applicable in areas where the environment is fragile and delicate, which are most truly wild areas. Why? Because diverting from the trail, to walk around the mud or in our case looking for that ammo can full of McTreasures, creates a new trail.

 

I live in Memphis, but I’m from the Ozark Mountains. I go backpacking on the Ozark Highlands Trail at least three times a year to hike and camp for three or four days at a stretch. I both hike and Geocache. I am a member of the Sierra Club and The Ozark Highlands Trail Association. I think more Geocachers should work closely with environmental organizations because ideally we should have very similar goals, preservation of our natural and historical places for everyone (both us and future generations) to enjoy. Regardless of how that enjoyment is derived – Geocaching, Backpacking, ATVing, Cycling, Hunting, Fishing, Canoeing, Bird Watching, Plant Identification, cemetery exploration, whatever. There is a lot of wilderness out there and specific places to do the things that each of us enjoys. But if that wilderness is overused you might as well build a Wal-Mart there.

 

What items do environmentalists specifically object to Geocaching? How can we work to fix those items or compromise with the green groups that oppose our greenish hued hobby?

Edited by navycrackerjack
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So, a $100 blanket permit is a bad precedent? Wouldn't an all out ban be worse?

 

Thanks for the reply. It might very well be that geocaching comes to this here also so I'm interested in knowing what the permit entails. (Not looking for an argument.)

So if I were a cacher in Georgia what would that mean to me? Would I have to pay to place a cache? It sounded to me as though the $100 had to be paid by each cacher. Would I have to be a member of GGA to place a cache in Georgia? Do you have to renew this permit each year? (Congratulations on your hard work in keeping geocaching from being banned.)

 

As a side note I loved the Outstanding Caches list on the GGA webpage. I feel hiders are going to try to make better hides if it means getting on the list.

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My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

 

Are these the same environmentalists that drive home in their gas-guzzling SUV's to their suburban development built on what used to be a budding forest or wetland that was bought out by greedy corporate industrialists for "development"?

 

Just curious. Any environmentalist that doesn't live in a cave in the woods is a hypocrite...plain and simple.

 

P.S. Never trust a vegetarian with a leather bag....

 

--MGb

 

Or, how about the treehuggers who live in a house made of.......WOOD! <_<:mad:

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My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

 

Are these the same environmentalists that drive home in their gas-guzzling SUV's to their suburban development built on what used to be a budding forest or wetland that was bought out by greedy corporate industrialists for "development"?

 

Just curious. Any environmentalist that doesn't live in a cave in the woods is a hypocrite...plain and simple.

 

P.S. Never trust a vegetarian with a leather bag....

 

--MGb

 

Or, how about the treehuggers who live in a house made of.......WOOD! <_<:mad:

I RESEMBLE that remark... I'm a TREE HUGGER and MY HOUSE is made of wood! :)

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Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

 

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if the orca was caged and tethered to the dock :mad:

 

That would just stir up another splinter-group

 

Bloody splitters!

 

Now, would that be The People's Orca Liberation Front, or The Orca's Liberation People's Front? <_<

 

Maybe it's The Popular People's Orca Liberation Front?? I have some lovely wrens' livers and badgers' spleens.

 

Johnny

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I'd like to know what your permit entails too. Does it just cover you or a group?

Sometimes I wonder where it will all end.

$5.00 for swimming?

$2.00 for frisbee playing?

$8.00 for fishing?

$10.00 for picnicing?

$25.00 for hunting?

$40.00 for camping?

$3.00 for sandbox use?

 

Great.... my dog could rack up a $42 bill on a quick walk around the park.

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relax the placement rules of caches an watch geocaching soar..the way it is now,if it aint in a park or a gamelands,you aint gotta cache..leave it up to the placer of the cache to be responsible for the cache..otherwise its just a sissy game..

 

Relax the placement rules and watch it die as its outlawed all over the country.

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relax the placement rules of caches an watch geocaching soar..the way it is now,if it aint in a park or a gamelands,you aint gotta cache..leave it up to the placer of the cache to be responsible for the cache..otherwise its just a sissy game..

It would be nice if all the geocachers were as responsible as I'm sure you are. BUT...

 

It is all too common for caches to be placed on posted land, private property, and many other questionable places with questionable or much more commonly, NO permission or any reason to believe the property owner would approve if they found out the cache is there.

 

At least on public land there is a reasonable expectation that you, as a seeker, won't get in trouble for playing the game.

 

The rules are presently, on a scale of 1-10 where 1 = Totally lax and 10= totally adequate, about an 8 or so IMO.

 

Do we need tighter rules? No. Not if cachers will willingly QUIT SUBMITTING caches that are in questionable locations. But I doubt that will happen because (as indicated in the quoted post) there are those who think somehow playing the game without having to "sneak around" and avoid detection by the authorities and land owners is "sissy".

 

The *P-word* issue in regards to private property, if left alone and if cachers continue to ignore common sense, will result in geocaching being outlawed. <*period*

 

If we do not implement new rules, new rules may well be implemented FOR us- and in that respect, geocaching IS in danger.

 

<dead horse alert>

I for one think that ALL caches on private land should be REQUIRED to have written permission from someone... then the seekers would not have to always be looking over their shoulders for the cops or abort hunts because they personally have the integrity to obey the law even if it means no smiley. As it is now, the placer's IRRESPONSIBILITY (or at least hisher ability to BE irresponsible) is assured.

</dead horse>

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I wouldnt be suprised the environmentalists (tree huggers) want everyone/everything banned from the woods, so they can walk in it enjoy it. This dosent add up to me they walk on the trails that the jeep and atv clubs maintain and look at maps that have been made using a gps. I'm still waiting for the day I come across one in the woods with a twisted foot and wants me to go for help, so I can walk out for help and tell the ems crew that the person is just past the 3000th tree on the left side of the 4th big rock past the 20th mud hole.

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I started as a geocacher and then became a environmetalist haveing said that lately I have seen alot of probs caused by geocaches.

 

- heavly visisted caches do show dmg to the environment. I have sen many areas where a cache has ben placed just stoped to death causeing harm to the plants and increaseing erossion in the area.

 

- litter at cache sites yes I have seen litter at some caches that were directly related to the cache. IE no one besides a cacher would be at that area becuse its in such a remote location.

 

-geo trails yes deer and other creatures make trails. However humans have the brain compasity to relize that there createing a trail and the impact it can cause. Deer don't

 

-GC's actions when a cache is requested to be removed. The school I go to for natrual resource managment has wood lots as we use for outdoors class rooms. In one of the wood lots a 5gall bucket was barried and another was there also. The conservation teachers who are geo freindly to a point didnt like this. They knew I had exsperince in geocacheing and asked me to contact gc to have them arcived. I spent a week trying to get gc to A)archive the caches <_< make sure that exspress prmission is granted on further placements. (both placements were inmplyed prmission) GC failed to do eather telling me to have so and so contact such and such. HOwerver they wouldnt email the cache owner and ask if he realy aske for pre mission.

 

So as a future land manger I to would be hesitant on alowing people to place caches on my land with out set guidelines that I could enforce. Much like the ones that NY did with there parks.

 

PyroDave

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Much of this discussion reminds me of two definitions I learned in college, studying Natural Resource Management at Kansas State University. 20+ years later, I still have them memorized, verbatim, as our professor had intended.

 

"Conservation: The WISE use of a natural resource."

"Preservation: The NON use of a natural resource."

 

Hopefully, we, as responsible geocachers, are part of the first group. As responsible geocachers, it is also up to us to help educate the others to become responsible geocachers.

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-geo trails yes deer and other creatures make trails. However humans have the brain compasity to relize that there createing a trail and the impact it can cause. Deer don't

I'm always impressed by the intelligent use of terrain by the local deers and cows. I sometimes follow their paths when there are no established human trails available. :) I wouldn't underestimate the brain capacities of "other creatures." :mad:

 

I agree that we (as humans) don't really have good reasons to go off trail, because we tend to get lost... so much for OUR brain capacities. <_<

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So, a $100 blanket permit is a bad precedent? Wouldn't an all out ban be worse?

 

Thanks for the reply. It might very well be that geocaching comes to this here also so I'm interested in knowing what the permit entails. (Not looking for an argument.)

So if I were a cacher in Georgia what would that mean to me? Would I have to pay to place a cache? It sounded to me as though the $100 had to be paid by each cacher. Would I have to be a member of GGA to place a cache in Georgia? Do you have to renew this permit each year? (Congratulations on your hard work in keeping geocaching from being banned.)

 

As a side note I loved the Outstanding Caches list on the GGA webpage. I feel hiders are going to try to make better hides if it means getting on the list.

Thank you as well!

 

It is a blanket permit, one time. We had to pay $100 to go through the process. We could have been turned down and we would have lost the $100. We felt it was worth it either way. I am not sure when we have to renew it actually. We did this for all geocachers in GA, GGA or not. Reviewers just have to make sure that new placements follow the guidelines set forth by the FS, like any other regulated area (like our State Parks).

 

Thanks for the compliments on the Outstanding Caches! We are just about to start the process for this year. It is always fun.

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I started as a geocacher and then became a environmetalist haveing said that lately I have seen alot of probs caused by geocaches.

 

- heavly visisted caches do show dmg to the environment. I have sen many areas where a cache has ben placed just stoped to death causeing harm to the plants and increaseing erossion in the area.

 

- litter at cache sites yes I have seen litter at some caches that were directly related to the cache. IE no one besides a cacher would be at that area becuse its in such a remote location.

 

-geo trails yes deer and other creatures make trails. However humans have the brain compasity to relize that there createing a trail and the impact it can cause. Deer don't

 

-GC's actions when a cache is requested to be removed. The school I go to for natrual resource managment has wood lots as we use for outdoors class rooms. In one of the wood lots a 5gall bucket was barried and another was there also. The conservation teachers who are geo freindly to a point didnt like this. They knew I had exsperince in geocacheing and asked me to contact gc to have them arcived. I spent a week trying to get gc to A)archive the caches <_< make sure that exspress prmission is granted on further placements. (both placements were inmplyed prmission) GC failed to do eather telling me to have so and so contact such and such. HOwerver they wouldnt email the cache owner and ask if he realy aske for pre mission.

 

So as a future land manger I to would be hesitant on alowing people to place caches on my land with out set guidelines that I could enforce. Much like the ones that NY did with there parks.

 

PyroDave

 

I appreciate your arguement, however you may be taken more seriously if you spell check first.

 

We all need to be responcible when placing or hunting caches. One of the things that draws many of us to the hobby is the chance to get into the outdoors and visit places that we may not have gone otherwise. Wise use of our natural resources will ensure their use by our children and grand-children. I can understand the concerns of many "environmentalists", however it is up to us to not provide them with ammunition to justify their accusations.

 

-Jim

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I started as a geocacher and then became a environmetalist haveing said that lately I have seen alot of probs caused by geocaches.

 

- heavly visisted caches do show dmg to the environment. I have sen many areas where a cache has ben placed just stoped to death causeing harm to the plants and increaseing erossion in the area.

 

- litter at cache sites yes I have seen litter at some caches that were directly related to the cache. IE no one besides a cacher would be at that area becuse its in such a remote location.

 

-geo trails yes deer and other creatures make trails. However humans have the brain compasity to relize that there createing a trail and the impact it can cause. Deer don't

 

-GC's actions when a cache is requested to be removed. The school I go to for natrual resource managment has wood lots as we use for outdoors class rooms. In one of the wood lots a 5gall bucket was barried and another was there also. The conservation teachers who are geo freindly to a point didnt like this. They knew I had exsperince in geocacheing and asked me to contact gc to have them arcived. I spent a week trying to get gc to A)archive the caches :rolleyes: make sure that exspress prmission is granted on further placements. (both placements were inmplyed prmission) GC failed to do eather telling me to have so and so contact such and such. HOwerver they wouldnt email the cache owner and ask if he realy aske for pre mission.

 

So as a future land

manger I to would be hesitant on alowing people to place caches on my land with out set guidelines that I could enforce. Much like the ones that NY did with there parks.

 

PyroDave

 

 

I've been on over 600 cache hunts and have seen very little of what you describe. Most heavily visited caches are very close to parking or roads or are in small urban or suburban parks and lots. These are usually already heavily impacted, so the impact of a cache in these areas is really not much of an issue.

 

Caches that I've found deeper in the woods without exception have shown very little or no visible impact.

 

The few "geo trails" that I've seen were for caches that were very close to a trail, road or parking, because most searchers tend to use the same route. Caches deeper in the woods don't seem to develop geo trails because searchers are less likely to follow the same route to the cache, which disperses impact and gives the area time to recover. The few "geotrails" I have seen were little more than bent grass. Hardly an environmental disaster. In no cases have I encountered a compacted treadway or other serious damage.

 

I've also seen what might look like "geo trails" to the casual observer, but in reality are game trails or social trails that predated the cache. Geocachers will often take the route of least resistance when placing a cache and they use these existing game and social trails. It may seem that the cache caused the trail when in reality, the trail is the reason for the cache.

 

I've seen litter around caches, but I believe it rarely can be attributed to cachers. Faded beer cans that obviously been there for years and that kind of stuff. Sure I've seen an occasional gum or candy bar wrapper that was likely dropped by a geocacher, but overall I think geocachers remove far more litter than they leave.

 

Your mention of NY's state parks is interesting, because you should also be aware that NY's DEC lifted a long standing ban on geocaching on their lands after they did an extensive study on geocaching, They visted cache sites throughout the state and determined that the impact of geocaching was negligible and decided to allow geocaching on their lands with NO RESTRICTIONS (other than asking that we separate caches by at least .25 mile).

Edited by briansnat
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Geocachers are some of the greatest supporters of public lands. I recall that we had an event cache sponsored by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources (MDNR). Many organizations were invited and the Michigan Geocaching Organization (MiGO) had the largest turnout of any group. I was thinking that this turnout had to have an impact on the MDNR staff. As geocaching grows, geocachers will be a constituency that the State, County, and Municipal parks agencies will want to keep happy. They know we support their parks by buying park passes and voting for park improvements.

 

Yes, we do CITO, but our presence in the parks is just as important as the radical environmentalists. Listen to the environmentalists' concerns. There might be a way of addressing their concerns other than banning geocaching. For example, some geocache policies limit the time a geocache can be in the same location. Moving the cache after six months or a year will allow the land to recover from the hiking that takes place.

 

Don't let the environmentalists walk all over us. Speak up and be heard! :rolleyes:

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What ! Really, ? I lived in Parsippany NJ late eigthies and the increase in deer density was because they were cutting down forest and building all over the place ! Often the issue is habitat destruction, urban sprawling.

 

OK, in farm land, food supply being high the herds prosper and you have to cull them. Deer tend to feed on tree bark if food is lacking during winter time and feed on buds during spring. I am suprised they have to get professional hunters, regular hunters should be enough, if not enough hunter in NJ, don't hesitate to contact me.

Have gun, will travel ! :rolleyes:

 

Since may this year, I already shot 8 wild boars and 3 roebuck deers plus a few foxes and of course without endangering the species. Look like global warming helps a lot by reducing winter mortality and impoving food availability.

 

It's not that hunters don't want to hunt in the areas that have hired professional exterminators, they do. The problem is; is that these areas are mainly in and around townships like Princeton, where the upper middle class folks don't want to allow hunters on their property. Yet they feed these deer with their manicured lawns, and wonder why they are smacking a deer with their cars all the time. The hired killers are not just going out and shooting them with "hunting weapons". They have been netting them and then spiking them in the head while they are tangled in the net, and shooting them with silenced weapons at night to not wake up the locals. Many NJ Bow hunters have petitioned to be allowed to hunt in these areas, but the townships won't let them. When I lived in NJ, I bow hunted public land in the Pine Barrens, Fort Dix, and Lakehurst NAES. I keep mainly to the Military installations due to the lack of crowds.

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We have a large retirement community in central Texas, near where I live. It has become so overrun with deer that they hope to thin the herd to about half of what it is. All I found online was a short notice about it from one of our radio stations, quoted below:

 

It will be the second year that Sun City traps deer. According to volunteer counts, there are around three hundred deer in the community, that is one for every three acres and well above the state average. After being caught in the non-lethal traps, the deer will be passed to ranchers willing to take them in. Those who aren’t claimed will be slaughtered and the meat will be donated to charity. The trapping will continue through March.

 

We have, as a population, changed their habitat, destroying what natural habitat they have left, and bringing in an abundance of watered lawns and fresh greenery, and multiple ponds for fresh water. We have removed their natural predators. This overpopulates the area, and then leads to disease among the herd, which then weakens it in times of stress and multiple road kills as the deer wander in search of food.

 

Unfortunately, the "typical" population often gets upset at the prospect of having professionals come in and "kill bambi"!!! Humane trapping is far safer for the community, though, as I am sure residents would be upset at the possibility of a stray bullet. Humane trapping also allows for the relocation of these deer if possible.

 

We don't live out there, but have a deer herd that commonly comes in our yard at night, also. (We live just outside city limits, on a road with several housing developments.) We frequently see deer droppings and find they have been munching on our trees (yes, we have artifically planted goodies for them to eat, also). No, I don't get upset when I see them, but hope they don't get killed as they cross the road back to the pasture across from us. Although I am a careful driver, I have hit two deer in the 15 years we have lived on this road. Even when you see them, and slow to about 10-15 mph, they still literally jump out in front of you (yes, this happened to me). Both incidents happened about 8 years ago, I think. I see 2-3 road kills on our short road (2 miles) every year. I am sure many of you have seen this same thing as man encroaches on wildlife habitats.

 

Malia

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Remember, the two sides of an argument need each other to exist. Take the following hunter/vegetarian argument:

 

Hunting is a controlled sport that keeps thousands of animals from starvation in the winter. Farming creates an entire ecosystem that thousands of animals learn to rely on, then their entire world is destroyed in a couple of days. The absence of food for the animals is the very reason we thin the population by hunting. It's a curious cycle. Based on this argument you could say that vegetarians are the reason that so many animals die. (Before you flame me, I have many friends who are vegetarians and I only present this as an example.)

 

Also, geocaching is less than a decade old. People were hiking thousands of years before geocaching and they will continue to do so regardless of what a few nutjobs say or do. They were also stashing supplies in the wild without disrupting the mating habits of the Great Horned Owl.

 

Last point - it's up to us to educate non-cachers on the game. If they see us uprooting flowerbeds then they will think we are destroying the environment everywhere. If they see us carrying trashbags then it sends a completely different message.

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As for the deer from my time in the woods they will take a already made trail before makeing there own. As for geocachers I know many that will blaze there own trail cause its shorter.

 

As for not seeing any impacts to the area there has not been a single cache thats located in a wild land setting that I have found that hasnt shown some sign of impact. Granted alot show little inpact but at the same time when I have visted a cache that has been there for some time and gets repeated visits I have seen MAJOR impacts

 

yes conservation is defined as wise use and it all cachers would wisely use the area then I would have not even posted on this but lets face it some cachers dont.

 

The trash I talk about seeing is not the beer cans and such but lets see riped ziplocks right next to a cache and other such items with no signs of any person ever wanting to be there.

 

Yes the DEC did lift the ban but i was refuring to the park service in ny that has made much stricter placeing guidelines. I personaly know people that helped get both those policys in place.

 

When it comes to my spelling well we all can't be good at everything and my disability makes it very hard for me to spell. However I bet you can' t do some things that I can do well so should I take your oppion as less then everyone elses?

 

Like I said I started as a cacher and know many great cachers however as a future land manager I'm trying to show the other side of the coin. As much as some want to make it look not all cachers are the ones that do all the right things some do the wrong things and as a land manger you wory about what could go wrong. After my one attemt to help manage land that I use and was asked by the teacher that dose manage the land to fix problums caused by geocacheing and seeing how much red tape was involved with fixing it I will still be causious of letting cache placement on the land i manage.

 

PyroDave

 

PyroDave

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I started as a geocacher and then became a environmetalist haveing said that lately I have seen alot of probs caused by geocaches.

 

{snip}

 

-GC's actions when a cache is requested to be removed. The school I go to for natrual resource managment has wood lots as we use for outdoors class rooms. In one of the wood lots a 5gall bucket was barried and another was there also. The conservation teachers who are geo freindly to a point didnt like this. They knew I had exsperince in geocacheing and asked me to contact gc to have them arcived. I spent a week trying to get gc to A)archive the caches :rolleyes: make sure that exspress prmission is granted on further placements. (both placements were inmplyed prmission) GC failed to do eather telling me to have so and so contact such and such. HOwerver they wouldnt email the cache owner and ask if he realy aske for pre mission.

 

So as a future land manger I to would be hesitant on alowing people to place caches on my land with out set guidelines that I could enforce. Much like the ones that NY did with there parks.

 

PyroDave

To translate the phrase "have so and so contact such and such," I would bet that it means "Geocaching.com has forwarded your message to the Volunteer Cache Reviewer for your area. He will contact the cache owner to discuss your concerns." For every question handled that way, there are several others handled by immediate archival -- as when the inquiry comes from a land manager or law enforcement official. As in, not a student.

 

As for not seeing any impacts to the area there has not been a single cache thats located in a wild land setting that I have found that hasnt shown some sign of impact. Granted alot show little inpact but at the same time when I have visted a cache that has been there for some time and gets repeated visits I have seen MAJOR impacts

Among the 2,100 or so caches I've searched for are more than 60 in your area. Comparing our common finds, I am just not remembering the signs of impact to which you are referring. The more remote caches I found on my most recent trip hadn't been visited by anyone for months. I guess I am just not seeing the same thing, even though I have training in trail management. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

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I started as a geocacher and then became a environmetalist haveing said that lately I have seen alot of probs caused by geocaches.

 

{snip}

 

-GC's actions when a cache is requested to be removed. The school I go to for natrual resource managment has wood lots as we use for outdoors class rooms. In one of the wood lots a 5gall bucket was barried and another was there also. The conservation teachers who are geo freindly to a point didnt like this. They knew I had exsperince in geocacheing and asked me to contact gc to have them arcived. I spent a week trying to get gc to A)archive the caches :rolleyes: make sure that exspress prmission is granted on further placements. (both placements were inmplyed prmission) GC failed to do eather telling me to have so and so contact such and such. HOwerver they wouldnt email the cache owner and ask if he realy aske for pre mission.

 

So as a future land manger I to would be hesitant on alowing people to place caches on my land with out set guidelines that I could enforce. Much like the ones that NY did with there parks.

 

PyroDave

To translate the phrase "have so and so contact such and such," I would bet that it means "Geocaching.com has forwarded your message to the Volunteer Cache Reviewer for your area. He will contact the cache owner to discuss your concerns." For every question handled that way, there are several others handled by immediate archival -- as when the inquiry comes from a land manager or law enforcement official. As in, not a student.

 

the matter was passed on and the only thing I realy asked was to to have GC ask if premission was actualygranted opposed to implyed and they wouldnt even contact the owner. I am a student and also president of the conservation club and fingerlakes evironmental action club I was asked by the conservation department to handle this matter or them as they are seriously overworked. It still gos back to gc was otified that a cache could be illegal and yet they still would not even email the owner and ask if premission was sougt and granted. So no GC didn't do there job and on top of it I emailed the owner and after a week of going back and forth with him he decided to contact his buddys who then emailed me and made insulting comments to me mostly about my spelling so that realy dosent seam like a community that is willing to work with landmangers. I can point out 100's of posts on the gc board where people think that the land manger is the devil cause they wouldnt let a cache be placed where they wanted it. The lets hav a proteste event theme is a great exsample. Anyone that deals with the gov't esp the ones dealingwith the environment know that budgets get cut every year and one of the first to go is the park service and such.

 

As for not seeing any impacts to the area there has not been a single cache thats located in a wild land setting that I have found that hasnt shown some sign of impact. Granted alot show little inpact but at the same time when I have visted a cache that has been there for some time and gets repeated visits I have seen MAJOR impacts

Among the 2,100 or so caches I've searched for are more than 60 in your area. Comparing our common finds, I am just not remembering the signs of impact to which you are referring. The more remote caches I found on my most recent trip hadn't been visited by anyone for months. I guess I am just not seeing the same thing, even though I have training in trail management. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

as for my find count on gc im lucky if half the caches I've found are loged on gc cause well I hate to write and just dont see the need to log online. I used to cache for the cool places I would see and you even stated your hitting the remote caches that havent been visited in mounts Im talking about ones that are visited often or hidden in areas that have sensitive wildlife around. I have been cacheing with all the memebrs of the NYGO board and during the time where cacheing was baned in many places in NY they even commented that they wouldnt like the DEC or NYS park service to see the impact caused by thi cacehe. Yes I have training in identifying protected plants and animals in this area. For instance all but 4 furns are protected or endangered in ny so damageing one of the furns is causeing dmg. I also have training in trail matnence and trail building. The people that ut trails in a area do it for a reason and they also dont put trails in a area for a reason. For someone that dosent know what plants are endangered its hard to know what there harming.

 

I know people that are just as active or mor active then you that on web will swear up and down that cacheing is awsome it has all these benifits and dose no harm to the environment. Then when I'm out cacheing with them have come to caches and looked around and said lets fallow this geotrail and then saw a 60 ft area trampled and said this isnt good. So I find it very hard to belive that with 2k+ finds you have never saw a geo trail or any signs of damage to the surounding area.

 

As a person wanting to manage land for use for all I think gc should rethink some of there policys about cache placment and how premission is realy granted. It also should not have to be the land owners responcibility to police GC it should be GC's responciblity to police there game.

 

This forum has shown me many times that gcers view the land as theres to do what they want with screw the rest. See topics on hunting, cemitarys inplyed premission vs stated premission cachers braging about being in parks after hours ect... I could also find links to logs that show people braging about bushwacking even when it says right on the page no bushwacking required. Yes alot of the cachers are active cyto memebers and do some realy good things in the area but there are about as many that dont do any of those things. So as a land manger I would want some control over whats going on in my area and sence I was the one payed to manage the property

i would do so as I was trained even if it ment cachers would have to jump through some hoops. Every outdor activity has to do it so should GC. I don't meen GC's rules I mean the land mangers rules. Hikers are exspected to stay on trails, hunters hunt during certen times a year in defined areas fishermen are only alowed to keep certen species of size and limit in a area campers can only camp in designated spots or in area that meet specific cryteria. Everyone has rules to fallow and out of those last groups listed I find the GC group has the most problum with the rules.

 

PyroDave

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Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.
$100 dollars to geocache in national forests! Just in Georgia! ...
Unless I've misunderstood you, 'Just in Georgia!' isn't nice to say. Georgia is gorgeous from what I've seen. That aside. ...
I think you did misunderstand. As I read Luckless' post, 'just in Georgia' related to the fact that the permit was only good in Georgia, rather than regional or national.

 

Of course, I'm a little confused as to what the permit allows. If it is $100 per cache, that's pricey. If it covers as many caches as can be placed in Georgia parks and doesn't include an individual approval process, that may be a very good deal.

 

I understood "blanket permit for geocachers" to mean a permit to geocache, probably for a period of time like a year or 5 years. Sounds like a hunting or fishing license. I looked at the GA Geocaching Guidlines on the GGA website (here) and didn't find this information. They do mention a permit, but there is no information on how to get one, what it permits or how much it costs. I had hoped that the GA Geocachers Assn. website would have more details. Maybe I just missed it.

 

We're passing through GA in two weeks and planned on geocaching. I never even considered that there may be laws governing this. I guess I should to check NC, SC and FL too.

Edited by sector001
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Pyro Dave,

 

Not to get off topic but,

 

"When it comes to my spelling well we all can't be good at everything and my disability makes it very hard for me to spell"

 

I hope this disability doesn't preclude you from visiting this site and downloading a free spell checker so all you have to do is click a button to fix spelling mistakes.

 

As a possible future land manager this would be an invaluable tool to help make your presentations better.

 

IE Spell Check

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Every outdor activity has to do it so should GC. I don't meen GC's rules I mean the land mangers rules. Hikers are exspected to stay on trails, hunters hunt during certen times a year in defined areas fishermen are only alowed to keep certen species of size and limit in a area campers can only camp in designated spots or in area that meet specific cryteria. Everyone has rules to fallow and out of those last groups listed I find the GC group has the most problum with the rules.

 

PyroDave

 

It took me a bit of time to decipher what you were trying to say, but I think I got the gist of it.

 

It's interesting that you find that the geocachers have the most problems with the rules. I guess the hunters in your area don't illegally hunt on private property or on lands closed to hunting. I guess hunters in your area don't poach, jacklight and hunt out of season. I guess hunters in your areas don't shoot up road signs, trail signs and park use signs. They do in my area.

 

I guess people don't camp in your area where camping is not allowed. I guess campers in your area don't build illegal fire rings. I guess campers in your area don't leave trash behind. They do in my area.

 

I guess hikers in your area don't venture off trail. I guess hikers in your area don't litter. I guess hikers in your area don't cross private property. I guess hikers in your area don't create unauthorized trails and "social paths". They do in my area.

 

I'm not saying that because other user groups break the rules, its OK for geocachers to do so too. But to single out geocachers as the user group that has the least regard for the rules is absurd.

Edited by briansnat
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I understood "blanket permit for geocachers" to mean a permit to geocache, probably for a period of time like a year or 5 years. Sounds like a hunting or fishing license. I looked at the GA Geocaching Guidlines on the GGA website (here) and didn't find this information. They do mention a permit, but there is no information on how to get one, what it permits or how much it costs. I had hoped that the GA Geocachers Assn. website would have more details. Maybe I just missed it.

 

Mtn-man can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it, the $100 permit that was taken out by the GGA covers all geocachers (hiders and searchrs). There is no need for individual geocachers to seek permits.

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I know people that are just as active or mor active then you that on web will swear up and down that cacheing is awsome it has all these benifits and dose no harm to the environment. Then when I'm out cacheing with them have come to caches and looked around and said lets fallow this geotrail and then saw a 60 ft area trampled and said this isnt good. So I find it very hard to belive that with 2k+ finds you have never saw a geo trail or any signs of damage to the surounding area.

 

As a person wanting to manage land for use for all I think gc should rethink some of there policys about cache placment and how premission is realy granted. It also should not have to be the land owners responcibility to police GC it should be GC's responciblity to police there game.

I never said that I'd never seen a geo trail or signs of damage. I don't recall this being a widespread problem in Monroe County New York. For example, in forested parks with steep hillsides like Durand Eastman and Ellison Park, I saw no problems; including the caches that we have both found. Yet, you say that nearly all the non-urban caches in your area had signs of damage (or misspelled words to that effect). Rather, in your area as in most others I've visited, I contend that real environmental impact is negligible in the vast majority of cases.

 

GC.com asks that each cache owner obtain adequate permission for their cache placement. In cases where the land manager has a published geocaching policy, the site's volunteers verify compliance with that policy. Complaints about inappropriate placements are dealt with responsibly and swiftly, as I have witnessed personally on dozens of occasions. What else would you have them do? Placing a cache and obtaining permission is the owner's responsibility. The website is a listing service, not a nanny.

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I understood "blanket permit for geocachers" to mean a permit to geocache, probably for a period of time like a year or 5 years. Sounds like a hunting or fishing license. I looked at the GA Geocaching Guidlines on the GGA website (here) and didn't find this information. They do mention a permit, but there is no information on how to get one, what it permits or how much it costs. I had hoped that the GA Geocachers Assn. website would have more details. Maybe I just missed it.

 

Mtn-man can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it, the $100 permit that was taken out by the GGA covers all geocachers (hiders and searchrs). There is no need for individual geocachers to seek permits.

briansnat is correct. I thought I have been clear. No one has ever needed a permit to find geocaches anywhere in Georgia. We only had to get a permit to hide them in the NF areas. Again, the permit covers all geocachers whether they belong to the GGA or not. The GGA simply took the initiative to negotiate with the FS to keep caching acceptable in NF areas.

We have some tough guidelines now though, including a half mile separation between caches.

I've even given a direct link to the guidelines for hiding caches in the NF areas in this topic. I will revise and add to the wording to make it more clear regarding the permit on our web page.

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Every outdor activity has to do it so should GC. I don't meen GC's rules I mean the land mangers rules. Hikers are exspected to stay on trails, hunters hunt during certen times a year in defined areas fishermen are only alowed to keep certen species of size and limit in a area campers can only camp in designated spots or in area that meet specific cryteria. Everyone has rules to fallow and out of those last groups listed I find the GC group has the most problum with the rules.

 

PyroDave

 

It took me a bit of time to decipher what you were trying to say, but I think I got the gist of it.

 

It's interesting that you find that the geocachers have the most problems with the rules. I guess the hunters in your area don't illegally hunt on private property or on lands closed to hunting. I guess hunters in your area don't poach, jacklight and hunt out of season. I guess hunters in your areas don't shoot up road signs, trail signs and park use signs. They do in my area.

 

I guess people don't camp in your area where camping is not allowed. I guess campers in your area don't build illegal fire rings. I guess campers in your area don't leave trash behind. They do in my area.

 

I guess hikers in your area don't venture off trail. I guess hikers in your area don't litter. I guess hikers in your area don't cross private property. I guess hikers in your area don't create unauthorized trails and "social paths". They do in my area.

 

I'm not saying that because other user groups break the rules, its OK for geocachers to do so too. But to single out geocachers as the user group that has the least regard for the rules is absurd.

 

I must agree with briansnat here. As a hunter, I have never hunted on an established trail, and have moved dead trees and vegitation around to create a blind. As a backpacker, I have gone off the trail to make camp and find water or poop :santa: . However, this has been done within the regulations of the land that I was doing the activity on. I have seen others, while particitpatings in an outdoor activity, violate the rules. This does not make the activity itself harmfull, just a handfull of participants.

 

If the participants of these activities, including geocaching, were responcible in their participation on the activity, then there would be no need to have rules in the first place. It isn't the park's fault if a camper burns down half the woods because of having a campfire in violation of park policy, as it is not GC.com's fault that certain cachers wish to bend or ignore land use rules in the practice of their hobby. It is a shame that we as humans cannot respect each other enough so that we leave the area as good or better than when we arrived so that others may also have the same opportunity to enjoy it.

 

I hope that if you are successfull in your quest to become a land manager, you don't judge entire groups based on the behavior of a small percentage of users who don't have enough respect for others to use the land in a way that minimizes impact and leaves it nice for the next person.

 

-Jim

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I understood "blanket permit for geocachers" to mean a permit to geocache, probably for a period of time like a year or 5 years. Sounds like a hunting or fishing license. I looked at the GA Geocaching Guidlines on the GGA website (here) and didn't find this information. They do mention a permit, but there is no information on how to get one, what it permits or how much it costs. I had hoped that the GA Geocachers Assn. website would have more details. Maybe I just missed it.

 

Mtn-man can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it, the $100 permit that was taken out by the GGA covers all geocachers (hiders and searchrs). There is no need for individual geocachers to seek permits.

briansnat is correct. I thought I have been clear. No one has ever needed a permit to find geocaches anywhere in Georgia. We only had to get a permit to hide them in the NF areas. Again, the permit covers all geocachers whether they belong to the GGA or not. The GGA simply took the initiative to negotiate with the FS to keep caching acceptable in NF areas.

We have some tough guidelines now though, including a half mile separation between caches.

I've even given a direct link to the guidelines for hiding caches in the NF areas in this topic. I will revise and add to the wording to make it more clear regarding the permit on our web page.

 

I see, thanks. And, thanks to GGA for taking out the permit so the rest of us can geocache there.

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I'd like to know what your permit entails too. Does it just cover you or a group?

Sometimes I wonder where it will all end.

$5.00 for swimming?

$2.00 for frisbee playing?

$8.00 for fishing?

$10.00 for picnicing?

$25.00 for hunting?

$40.00 for camping?

$3.00 for sandbox use?

 

Great.... my dog could rack up a $42 bill on a quick walk around the park.

Not to mention the toll to use the road to get to the park.

 

Now I wonder. How would you pay a toll to get a job if you don't have a job to pay the toll?

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...This forum has shown me many times that gcers view the land as theres to do what they want with screw the rest. See topics on hunting, cemitarys inplyed premission vs stated premission cachers braging about being in parks after hours ect... ...PyroDave

 

You are confusing the discussion for reality. In the forums we discuss how things should be, how they are wrong, should change, could be modified from every angle. Then every last one of us signs off and goes into the world where we face the reality of things and the very real rules of the world we live in. Discussion can change the real world in time, but every day the rules exist and are what they are.

 

If the leaders of Iran or the USA (and a few other countries) did half the things they talk about while debating law and actions... the world would have ended many times over.

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yes conservation is defined as wise use and it all cachers would wisely use the area then I would have not even posted on this but lets face it some cachers dont.

Very true. We are an incredibly diverse group. However, unlike most other diverse groups, the vast majority of us practice TREAD principles and embrace environmental awareness due to the fact that most of us recognize that the only way our game can survive is with the goodwill of land managers across the board. It's been my experience, as a law enforcement officer that patrols large forested areas, that the other groups who utilize our natural resources, (mountain bikers/hikers/horse riders/campers/etc), are not as environmentally conscious as we are. What I don't understand is, if a camper hacks down a live tree, builds a bonfire in an area not designated for fires, and leaves beer bottles strewn all around, the managers will target the individual. If a geocacher accidentally drops a torn baggie which they replaced from a cache, the managers target the group with blanket bans.

 

Post script: Dave, don't sweat the spelling critics. A person's ability to spell is not an accurate reflection of their abilities elsewhere, including land management. I'm an absolutely horrible speller. If it weren't for free spellcheck software, my written word would look like the work of a first grader. :santa:

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