Geocaching in danger

December 5, 2006

My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

December 5, 2006

Makes sense, can't confirm though.

They always want to ban the people who truly love the environment from enjoying it. They damage it more by creating a radical wing and turning people off. I guess that would put an end to "Cache in trash out" where tons of garbage is removed yearly.

Same goes for anti-4x4 people. Off-roaders are people who genuinely love the outdoors, they aren't so dumb to realize if they destroy it no more hobby.

5.9k · December 5, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

38.2k · December 5, 2006

There are some environmentalists who have a problem with geoaching, while some find that its benefits outweigh the few problems that have occured.

In reality, more and more park systems are embracing geocaching as a low impact sport that gets people out from in front of their video consoles and highlights their parks.

1.1k · December 5, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

December 5, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

hide more micros under lamp post skirts??

December 6, 2006

MN just legalized caching in state parks but many county parks still have laws agianst it my main goal is to get my nearby county park to legalize it. its a huge park with lots of possibilities. but right now im on the DNR's good side.

December 6, 2006

That would mean no earthcaches either.

December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

6.5k · December 6, 2006

My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

Wouldn't it make more sense to ban the orcas from the National Forests? It seems that they could do far more damage than a geocacher would.

December 6, 2006

Yeah, the environmental extremists would like to ban EVERYONE from the woods. Take what they say with a grain of salt (or ignore them completely like most reasonable folks do) and go on with your life.

2.7k · December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if you KILL the orca first. But talk about your "stinky" caches.... pheeeew!

1.1k · December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if you KILL the orca first. But talk about your "stinky" caches.... pheeeew!

Or if you find a big orca statue outside Sea World, and stick an ammo box in it's mouth then it's a done deal.......but wait, we are trying to save the Orca's

2.5k · December 6, 2006

I think environmentalists are wasting to much good air and energy. They should be banned.

1.1k · December 6, 2006

I saw Shamu with a bumper sticker that said "save the humans"

December 6, 2006

My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

Are these the same environmentalists that drive home in their gas-guzzling SUV's to their suburban development built on what used to be a budding forest or wetland that was bought out by greedy corporate industrialists for "development"?

Just curious. Any environmentalist that doesn't live in a cave in the woods is a hypocrite...plain and simple.

P.S. Never trust a vegetarian with a leather bag....

--MGb

2.5k · December 6, 2006

Ever heard of Timothy Treadwell?

He was an "Environmentalist" and look what Nature thought about him.

December 6, 2006

I know as of late here in Wisconsin many State parks are encouraging Geocaching and welcome the visitors it creates. Wisconsin has also put a ban on Geocaching in SNA's (State Natural areas). The WGA (Wisconsin Geocaching Association) and many other Wisconsin folks have contested this ban for Earthcaches. These SNA's are of Natural significance and do need to be protected however the non-Geocachers that visit these areas do 1000 fold environmental damage compared to the geocache traffic. Geocachers are picked on because we are in the public. The State Parks are funded by visitors. No visitors no parks. Plus, in my humble opinion most caches are visited by less then 50 cachers a year and most of these are right after it is placed. How much damage can four caches per month really do to an area?

It seems that cachers are guilty until we prove ourselves innocent. I have yet to see any scientific proven facts or figures of the environmental impact caused by Geocaching. It is merely a person or group concerned about the environment and thinking how to save it. I don't believe anyone truly believes that cachers are destroying the environment, they simply need someone to blame and we are easy to blame.

December 6, 2006

Geeee, as a hunter I am already their bad guy, now as a geocacher !

These people have no sense of measure !

True if there are too many geocachers flocking to one place, it would be a nuissance, same as for other activities.

I personnaly think geocaching in forests is indeed very positive. All these people poking the ground with sticks mix the upper soil, help seeds and moisture penetrate and in fact participate in the forest regeneration. :anibad:

They better fight against housing sprwaling, inefficient use of energy etc... bu then, they are part of it too !

December 6, 2006

Where's the video of when a dead whale was blown up on the CA coast. Raining blubber wrecked several cars. Thank god no one was hurt.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Wacka

December 6, 2006

I always thought it was kind of funny that deer can make hundreds of trails all over the woods and no one gives it a second thought.

But if a man makes a trail it is a danger to the area and is wrecking the landscape and destroying the environment.

December 6, 2006

I am surprised more enviornmentalist have not spoken up yet. I certainly consider myself one - that is part of why I enjoy geocaching.

I personally am against more people visiting our national parks. I would rather have the whole place to myself. I think sometimes the NPS caters too much to getting the lazy out from behind their playstation and at the cost of those of us who have always put in the grunt work to see the majesty of nature. Next thing you know, they will be putting an escalator down to phantom ranch at the Grand canyon.

7.2k · December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

December 6, 2006

If they are trying to save everything natural, and man is in fact a natural part of this world (whether you believe in creationism or evolution, either way man is one in nature) then isn't everything we do okay and just part of the natural process?

December 6, 2006

I can certainly see their rationale: trashy tupperware left in the woods, offshoot trails developing in erosion areas, people picking up all kinds of logs and rocks and tossing them aside, inexperienced yuppies crashing around looking at their GPSrs while killing flora and fauna, etc.

HOWEVER, they need to see the other side, too - the trash many cachers remove, and the environmental awareness this sport can eventually produce in people.

December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

I would be interested in the steps you took to achieve this monumental feat.

December 6, 2006

Im not sure whether to add some inane comment, or truly tasteless joke. I think the greens concerns are not with out merit, but any ignorance can be fought with education. Their point of abstention is ludicrous. Did I not just see over the summer a study regards NPS patronage in decline? Something along the lines of "What has become of the great American Summer Vacation. Where mom dad buddy and sis would jump in the car and tour our great national treasures". Im sure there are those who are quite happy with that reality. Im not. An analogy might be: like your muscles or your minds, use them or loose them.

My ¢.02 on this silliness is, if we were to cater to the 'National Parks are to be preserved ad-infinitum as an untouched pristine environment' it wont take too long for the public consciousness to forget that the parks are treasures and see them as a resource for energy, logging or whatever else. Use of the public park lands keeps the public mindful of what they stand to loose.

Silly greens.

20.7k · December 6, 2006

I can certainly see their rationale: trashy tupperware left in the woods, offshoot trails developing in erosion areas, people picking up all kinds of logs and rocks and tossing them aside, inexperienced yuppies crashing around looking at their GPSrs while killing flora and fauna, etc.

HOWEVER, they need to see the other side, too - the trash many cachers remove, and the environmental awareness this sport can eventually produce in people.

How much fauna do you kill while geocaching?

December 6, 2006

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

$100 dollars to geocache in national forests! Just in Georgia! Don't think I'd do that..might set a precedent.

Actually when I put my first geocache in a N.Y. state park there was some mixup and I was told it would cost $10. Well after some discussion the ranger realized that there was no cost..at least not yet although he wasn't ruling it out for the future.

I remember reading a book about a conservationist who lived and was very active in the Adirondack State Park organizations. The biggest problem she said was one of balancing the forever wild with park use/enjoyment and needed income.

December 6, 2006

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

$100 dollars to geocache in national forests! Just in Georgia! Don't think I'd do that..might set a precedent.

Actually when I put my first geocache in a N.Y. state park there was some mixup and I was told it would cost $10. Well after some discussion the ranger realized that there was no cost..at least not yet although he wasn't ruling it out for the future.

I remember reading a book about a conservationist who lived and was very active in the Adirondack State Park organizations. The biggest problem she said was one of balancing the forever wild with park use/enjoyment and needed income.

Unless I've misunderstood you, 'Just in Georgia!' isn't nice to say. Georgia is gorgeous from what I've seen. That aside.

You're right, a precedent of the like that is not a good idea.

You have got me thinking about pay per usage as potential NPS revenue source. One that we may come to expect in the future. Parking passes or fees already exist. Imagine being a registered hiker; or Nature Offender (let alone cache/trash hider).

Sick as that thought makes me, I fear its coming. It does need vigilance on our parts to keep reasonable land usage for ourselves and future generations.

But then, where does the maintenance revenue come from? Why wouldn't it make sense to tax the user, proportionately, to their usage?

20.7k · December 6, 2006

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.
$100 dollars to geocache in national forests! Just in Georgia! ...
Unless I've misunderstood you, 'Just in Georgia!' isn't nice to say. Georgia is gorgeous from what I've seen. That aside. ...

I think you did misunderstand. As I read Luckless' post, 'just in Georgia' related to the fact that the permit was only good in Georgia, rather than regional or national.

Of course, I'm a little confused as to what the permit allows. If it is $100 per cache, that's pricey. If it covers as many caches as can be placed in Georgia parks and doesn't include an individual approval process, that may be a very good deal.

24.7k · December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do? ...

Clear cut them.

December 6, 2006

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

A $100 NPS licensing fee might be tollerable, but more than likley disproportionate. Id figure most cachers are not in a position to see the benefits of it. By that I mean, in order to see any return on your investment, the individual would have had to place caches in many state's Nat'l Parks, and maintain them. Private jet to Shenandoah? Not I. Not, yet.

I see it as taxation without representation. We must keep an eye on it.

3.2k · December 6, 2006

My daughter and her friend have a Save The Orcas site and they were telling me that environmentalists are trying to outlaw Geocaching, especially on publicly owned land and national forests! Is this true or is it another mythunderstanding?

OK, now that everbody has had a well deserved laugh, did they mention any specific group? We all are in a hurry to speak with municipalities and FP's, how about educating a group that is actively working against GC.

These groups generally work well with, or at least don't bother, those of us in BSA in a large part because of our LNT (Leave No Trace) policies and practices. Since we have similar with CITO, maybe they just need to be approached.

38.2k · December 6, 2006

I always thought it was kind of funny that deer can make hundreds of trails all over the woods and no one gives it a second thought.

Actually they do. In NJ they hire professional hunters in some areas to thin the deer herd and cut down on damage to the forest. Hopefully they don't start doing that with geocachers too, or I'm moving.

December 6, 2006

Active environmentalists = good

Enrironmental activists = bad

One loves and enjoys the environment

The other loves telling others what to do

20.7k · December 6, 2006

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
A $100 NPS licensing fee might be tollerable, but more than likley disproportionate. Id figure most cachers are not in a position to see the benefits of it. By that I mean, in order to see any return on your investment, the individual would have had to place caches in many state's Nat'l Parks, and maintain them. Private jet to Shenandoah? Not I. Not, yet.

I see it as taxation without representation. We must keep an eye on it.

I agree, but if that fee were paid by the local geocaching club, it becomes much more tolerable.

1.4k · December 6, 2006

I am surprised more enviornmentalist have not spoken up yet. I certainly consider myself one - that is part of why I enjoy geocaching.

I personally am against more people visiting our national parks. I would rather have the whole place to myself. I think sometimes the NPS caters too much to getting the lazy out from behind their playstation and at the cost of those of us who have always put in the grunt work to see the majesty of nature. Next thing you know, they will be putting an escalator down to phantom ranch at the Grand canyon.

I talked to an outdoor enthusiast in Japan who envy how the National Parks in the U.S. lack the urban conveniences in comparison, allowing the visitor to "become one with nature."

Without any quoted publications or web sites to substantiate the rumor, I'll just pretend this never happened. No need to waste my brain cells on mindless reactionary rants of extremists, regardless of which side they are on.

December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

mtm-man:

Do they charge hunters to use the National Forest too? (I'm not talking about a hunting license here. That money goes to the state.) How about Hikers?

If only geocachers are charged a fee it seems like not all groups are treated equally.

December 6, 2006

I find it quite disturbing that so many of us (Geocacher’s) are fighting over Environmentalism!

Most Geocacher’s respect the environment and many help to protect it (see CITO) but, there are also many people who paid the big dollar (over $650 in Canada) for a top end GPS unit and some topo. software and want to rack up the finds regardless of what gets in their way. Just like all outdoor activities some controls have to be placed in effect to minimize the POSSIBLE damages. I live just outside Algonquin Park in Ontario and I can see that if you let every visitor to the area with a GPS unit go crazy there will be nothing “natural” left to cache in. Unfortunately many people forget that they are not alone in whatever quest or activity they participate in and while one persons footprint makes a small impact, if you multiply it out over hundreds or thousands of people the damage is overwhelming! Most environmental groups do not want to stop people from Geocaching or enjoying the outdoors, but just want people to be more responsible. The problems arise when either side gets stupid and jumps up on a soapbox and starts blurting out garbage (like some of the responses’ offered in this forum) so my advice is to make sure Geocacher’s stay cool and demonstrate that we can be responsible and that we are, as a group, concerned about the environment and our impact!

It makes sense to me to protect the natural environment and we should all be pushing towards this goal, if not stay in the city and look for micro caches!

9.3k · December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do? ...

Clear cut them.

Then build more Wally Worlds and low income housing. <_<

December 6, 2006

This reminds me of the "Anti Hunters" who think stopping hunting will save the animals, when the real FACT is that it is HUNTER'S MONEY that has saved the animals. There are more deer in Colorado today then there was 100 years ago because of the Fee's hunters pay for a license. Over 90 percent of all funds from State Departments of Wildlife come from hunters. But like someone else posted, there are a small handful of hunters who are NOT hunters but shooters/killers. They shoot anything that moves and leave a trail of death behind them. Personally, they should get jail time and fees, IMHO. Some Geocachers do damage the land and leave a path of destruction, and the best we can do is police that, mainly by cache owners checking on their caches often to make sure no damage is being done to the environment. If damage is being done, remove that cache, and let the land heal. I bet 90 percent of cachers, or more, are courteous and careful. So let's keep our sports reputation as being Environmentally Friendly. That depends on each one of us and each encounter we have with a non-cacher.

9.3k · December 6, 2006

I find it quite disturbing that so many of us (Geocacher’s) are fighting over Environmentalism!

I'm not seeing the same thing you are. I don't see us bickering amongst ourselves over the virtues of environmental protection, nor do I see us protesting Greenpeace or other like minded folks. What I do see, if the OP is accurate, is environmental groups targeting geocaching. I'm not comfortable being a target, and may react negatively. If a group thinks this may be a bad thing, they should refrain from targeting me.

December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if the orca was caged and tethered to the dock <_<

December 6, 2006

Just adding a funny story from Germany, which shows, that Geocachers no matter where they put their caches, be it in national parks or not, should think about WHERE they put caches:

A cache was placed inside a very old roman wall, which was not destroyed within the last 2000 years. Some time after the cache was placed, people in the area were wondering, why this 2000 year old wall was starting to break down. Do I have to say more?

What does this mean. Every Geocacher should carefully think about, where he puts his cache so not to harm nature et al.

There is another story from the island of Tenerife. There are several caches in the natural park of Cañadas Del Teide. No more than 50 vistors a year to all of these caches, as there is lots of walking to reach them. If in winter time, when there is snow up there, thousands of Canarians spend their weekend there, the 'Cabildo' removes tons and tons of trash after the weekend left by the visitors.

3.8k · December 6, 2006

ono, if they outlaw geocaching in national forests, what would we ever do?

Not funny to me at all. We just went through a two year permitting process in the GA USDA National Forest. It costs us $100.00 for a blanket permit for geocachers in GA.

I would be interested in the steps you took to achieve this monumental feat.

No kidding!!!

3.8k · December 6, 2006

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

A $100 NPS licensing fee might be tollerable, but more than likley disproportionate. Id figure most cachers are not in a position to see the benefits of it. By that I mean, in order to see any return on your investment, the individual would have had to place caches in many state's Nat'l Parks, and maintain them. Private jet to Shenandoah? Not I. Not, yet.

I see it as taxation without representation. We must keep an eye on it.

Oh, I dunno about that.

If someone wants to pony up $100 so we can cache in the NPS forests, there would be a huge return on the investment. The ability to place a cache where it wasn't allowed, the ability to go hunt and, hopefully, find that cache, and the knopwledge that you helped the cause.

38.2k · December 6, 2006

Unfortunately many people forget that they are not alone in whatever quest or activity they participate in and while one persons footprint makes a small impact, if you multiply it out over hundreds or thousands of people the damage is overwhelming!

The thing is that the areas of concern, meaning sensitive areas in national forests, state parks, etc... tend to have caches that involve longer hikes. In most areas these kinds of caches are lucky to get a visit or two every month, often less. So we're not talking hundreds or thousands of people (show me one cache with thousands of visits).

Some caches do get hundreds of visits and these are usually caches that are a few feet from a parking lot or road. Really, how sensitive could these places be of it was OK to build a parking lot or road there?

3.8k · December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if the orca was caged and tethered to the dock

That would just stir up another splinter-group

8.4k · December 6, 2006

Well there goes my idea of hiding an ammo can inside an orca.

That would be a traveling cache and they're already banned.

Not if the orca was caged and tethered to the dock

That would just stir up another splinter-group

Bloody splitters!

Now, would that be The People's Orca Liberation Front, or The Orca's Liberation People's Front? <_<

Geocaching in danger

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