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Brik

Question on moved marker

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Hi - I'm new to geocaching and noticed this part of the forum.

 

I bought my GPS to mark waypoints for survey markers for a large property survey that was just completed. There is a Geodetic Survey marker within a few feet of one of my corners. This marker was embedded in an old rail bridge footing. This footing was moved and the bridge was removed. The marker was called out, in its new, moved, location in my survey. Thats not my concern.

 

My questions is - Is there a concern to anyone that the marker has been moved? Its obvious that its been moved and would not confuse anyone. It now sits in some concrete piers pushed to the side of a stream bed. Is there any penalty for moving it if I rat out the guy that took his backhoe to it?

 

Thanks

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Hi - I'm new to geocaching and noticed this part of the forum.

 

I bought my GPS to mark waypoints for survey markers for a large property survey that was just completed. There is a Geodetic Survey marker within a few feet of one of my corners. This marker was embedded in an old rail bridge footing. This footing was moved and the bridge was removed. The marker was called out, in its new, moved, location in my survey. Thats not my concern.

 

My questions is - Is there a concern to anyone that the marker has been moved? Its obvious that its been moved and would not confuse anyone. It now sits in some concrete piers pushed to the side of a stream bed. Is there any penalty for moving it if I rat out the guy that took his backhoe to it?

 

Thanks

Stuff happens, and a marker getting moved is not a catastrophy. But I would report the situation to the NGS, assuming it is in their database. So I would suggest ...

 

1) Check if the marker is in the NGS database. Go to this site: NGS datasheet retrieval site and using either the location (old location) of the marker and/or the markings stamped on the disk, retrieve the datasheet which gives all the information about the mark. Be sure you get the right datasheet - put another way, make sure the datasheet unambiguously describes your mark..

 

2) If it isn't in the databse. You're done. If it is ...

 

3) Take a bunch of pictures showing that the mark is moved (current setting, former location, etc.) and dig up ducumentation of the fact that the original structure was removed.

 

4) send it all in to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov) of the NGS and ask her to declare the mark "desatroyed". If your evidence is reasonably convincing, she will do this.

 

This will alert any surveyors who may be looking through the database for nearby marks that they may have a need for.

 

My opinion is that the mark should not have been included in your property survey. Someone might conclude that the mark provides "control" for your survey. In it's moved condidtion, it cannot provide any control. In fact once it's moved, even slightly, it no longer provides ANY geodetic information whatsoever.

 

Welcome to the game. This one is a great way to jump in and get involved.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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<snip>

My opinion is that the mark should not have been included in your property survey. Someone might conclude that the mark provides "control" for your survey. In it's moved condition, it cannot provide any control. In fact once it's moved, even slightly, it no longer provides ANY geodetic information whatsoever.

<snip

 

I checked the survey, It was not called out, I was mistaken - The control, I think, was off another marker several miles away and not shown on the drawing. The survey also showed many other unofficial things as FYIs such as evidence of old fence rows, boardwalk piers (Boardwalk was described in a 100+ year old deed as a carriage way). The survey crew did spray paint a day glow orange circle around it for what ever reason and wrote something on the concrete that I don't recall. I will be at the property tomorrow and could take a couple of pictures and get the details off of the marker if y'all think its worthwhile. Let me know today.

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Well - I visited the website and got the data sheet for the marker I know has been moved via demolition of the bridge its attached to. The marker is still visible in part of the concrete laying on the stream bank and abviously disturbed. Last report was 1999 showing as good, placed in 1942. The data sheet is as follows:

 

DATABASE = Sybase ,PROGRAM = datasheet, VERSION = 7.42

1 National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = DECEMBER 1, 2006

KW1997 ***********************************************************************

KW1997 DESIGNATION - A 167

KW1997 PID - KW1997

KW1997 STATE/COUNTY- PA/YORK

KW1997 USGS QUAD - MECHANICSBURG (1987)

KW1997

KW1997 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

KW1997 ___________________________________________________________________

KW1997* NAD 83(1986)- 40 07 41. (N) 077 02 19. (W) SCALED

KW1997* NAVD 88 - 147.282 (meters) 483.21 (feet) ADJUSTED

KW1997 ___________________________________________________________________

KW1997 GEOID HEIGHT- -34.09 (meters) GEOID03

KW1997 DYNAMIC HT - 147.205 (meters) 482.96 (feet) COMP

KW1997 MODELED GRAV- 980,100.5 (mgal) NAVD 88

KW1997

KW1997 VERT ORDER - SECOND CLASS 0

KW1997

KW1997.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have

KW1997.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds.

KW1997

KW1997.The orthometric height was determined by differential leveling

KW1997.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in June 1991..

KW1997

KW1997.The geoid height was determined by GEOID03.

KW1997

KW1997.The dynamic height is computed by dividing the NAVD 88

KW1997.geopotential number by the normal gravity value computed on the

KW1997.Geodetic Reference System of 1980 (GRS 80) ellipsoid at 45

KW1997.degrees latitude (g = 980.6199 gals.).

KW1997

KW1997.The modeled gravity was interpolated from observed gravity values.

KW1997

KW1997; North East Units Estimated Accuracy

KW1997;SPC PA S - 88,490. 660,630. MT (+/- 180 meters Scaled)

KW1997

KW1997 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL

KW1997

KW1997 NGVD 29 (??/??/??) 147.484 (m) 483.87 (f) ADJUSTED 2 0

KW1997

KW1997.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.

KW1997.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.

KW1997.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived.

KW1997

KW1997_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 18TUK263439(NAD 83)

KW1997_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

KW1997_SETTING: 36 = SET IN A MASSIVE STRUCTURE

KW1997_SP_SET: BRIDGE

KW1997_STAMPING: A-167 1942

KW1997_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

KW1997

KW1997 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

KW1997 HISTORY - 1942 MONUMENTED CGS

KW1997 HISTORY - 1966 GOOD CGS

KW1997 HISTORY - 19990321 GOOD USPSQD

KW1997

KW1997 STATION DESCRIPTION

KW1997

KW1997'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1942

KW1997'1.2 MI N FROM DILLSBURG.

KW1997'ABOUT 1.2 MILES NORTH ALONG THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD FROM THE

KW1997'STATION AT DILLSBURG, ABOUT 725 FT. SOUTH OF THE CROSSING OF

KW1997'HIGHWAY 74, 8.5 FT. EAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE TRACK, A

KW1997'STANDARD DISK SET IN THE SOUTH-EAST CONCRETE HEAD WALL OF A

KW1997'SMALL RAILROAD BRIDGE NO. 15 - 15.

KW1997

KW1997 STATION RECOVERY (1966)

KW1997

KW1997'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1966

KW1997'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

KW1997

KW1997 STATION RECOVERY (1999)

KW1997

KW1997'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 1999

KW1997'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

 

*** retrieval complete.

Elapsed Time = 00:00:01

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Good work. I assume the the stamping "A 167 1942" is still readable. Now get some pictures of the current setting (showing it's clearly no longer the head wall of a bridge), a closeup of the disk, and maybe a shot of where the bridge used to be. If you can find any published story of the bridge being removed that would be great. Or even word-of-mouth "Local engineer reports the bridge was removed in 2000" or such like.

 

Unfortunately since it was a bench mark, the location is scaled, so a GPS reading of where you found it won't help prove it was moved. So concentrate on the descriptions "ABOUT 725 FT. SOUTH OF THE CROSSING OF HIGHWAY 74, 8.5 FT. EAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE TRACK" and "IN THE SOUTH-EAST CONCRETE HEAD WALL OF A SMALL RAILROAD BRIDGE NO. 15 - 15." to prove your point to Deb.

 

Getting a mark designated as "destroyed" is a rite of passage for some in this hobby. Get enough evidence to convince a (reasonable) skeptic and you'll convince Deb.

 

Oh, and by all means log a "destroyed" here on GC for KW1997. You can upload your pictures and quote your evidence in the log. Make sure you say why it's desatroyed (moved mark=destroyed mark) because someone may come by and see the thing and log a "found" without checking the details (Some folks like to run up their totals :tired:)

 

And when you ask around, you might just find out the bridge was removed prior to 1999. But what about the 1999 "GOOD CONDITION" log on the NGS, you ask? Well, let's just say the USPSQD has a "variable" reputation in some circles.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Brik - it's a small world! I was on my way back from a recovery (KW2820) on Monday & stopped by to look for KW1997. I saw signs posted along the railroad bed where it crossed PA 74, so I stopped at the Chiropractic place (last of the 3 houses E of the RR bed & the one that looked to be closest to the bridge) to see if I could get permission to walk thru their yard, but alas, no one answered the door.. I peeked around the back & thought I saw some cement chunks at the edge of their yard. Did you get any pics of the debris when you were there?

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Brik - it's a small world! I was on my way back from a recovery (KW2820) on Monday & stopped by to look for KW1997. I saw signs posted along the railroad bed where it crossed PA 74, so I stopped at the Chiropractic place (last of the 3 houses E of the RR bed & the one that looked to be closest to the bridge) to see if I could get permission to walk thru their yard, but alas, no one answered the door.. I peeked around the back & thought I saw some cement chunks at the edge of their yard. Did you get any pics of the debris when you were there?

 

I'll get pictures today. I'll PM you with my cell if you want to meet up. The bridge was on 3 different private properties. You would be welcome to cross my property (posted) if I'm with you. It would require a lot of bushwhacking. We would enter from Campground Road if thats any indication of the property that I'm part owner of and whcih I just had surveyed.

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Brik - sorry I missed you..the wife kept me busy all day w/ chores around the house...I would've much rather joined you bushwacking thru thorns looking for old marks !

 

- E

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I would just like to add a comment as I am a surveyor who deals with lost monumentation all the time.It doesnt matter if a mark has been destroyed or not when it comes to the legal side of a boundry survey.Chances are pretty good that through due dillagence any surveyor with the correct documentation of the surrounding area can "virtually" re-establish the missing GOV. mark.If that or any other MON. is listed in your legal decription of your property it can never be remved.

 

Tony

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My questions is - Is there a concern to anyone that the marker has been moved? Its obvious that its been moved and would not confuse anyone. It now sits in some concrete piers pushed to the side of a stream bed. Is there any penalty for moving it if I rat out the guy that took his backhoe to it?

 

Thanks

 

Nobody ever answered this question, so I thought I would. The answer is YES, moving or destroying a survey maker is illegal and punishable under US law.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...58----000-.html

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Nobody ever answered this question, so I thought I would. The answer is YES, moving or destroying a survey maker is illegal and punishable under US law.

 

 

caseyb - question ...I notice in my area that numerous stations have been removed by "progress" - old RR bridges like Brik's example, but more often a tri-station that succumbs to a shopping mall (one example - KW2106) - the majority of them never are officially destroyed...wouldn't the developers have a responsibility to make the attempt to pull the disk aside & let you know before the bulldozer hauls it away. (I CAN see how a BM would possibly be missed with scaled coords). It seems like (at least in my area of PA) the developers don't pay any attention to the stations..

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wouldn't the developers have a responsibility to make the attempt to pull the disk aside & let you know before the bulldozer hauls it away.

 

Yes they do. And as you correctly point out, they very often fail to do so. It is a rare case where we are notified propoerly and paid to do a reset, but it does occasionally happen the way it is supposed to.

Edited by caseyb

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How much do they pay to reestablish a mark? I would guess it's a lot more than the $250 fine that probably won't be imposed anyway.

 

-Art-

(cynical Washington guy)

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..this reminded me of a story - back in Mar. or Apr., I went on a lunchtime excursion to look for a mark at a crossing along a Norfolk-Southern line. When I pulled up at what looked like a brand-new regraded re-signaled crossing, I saw 3 'official' looking people w/ papers & pointing. ...well, I was on a mission w/ time constraints so I pulled off on the other side of the crossing, grabbed my clipboard & camera & walked over to the other side of the crossing where the mark [was] while they were still intently pointing, etc. They all looked over & one of the gentleman asked me if he could help me - so I explain what I'm looking for and one of the RR employees (others were from the Twp.) says something like "Yeah yeah those things - they come in and set this things everywhere w/ out asking anybody & in the way!".

 

To dissect that statement:

 

1.) - I'm sure in 1942 when the that particular string of marks was set, people w/ (then) USC&GS and (then) PA R.R. (PRR to us locals) were in contact.

 

2.) - a lot of them end up being in the way - as no one can anticipate a gravel road becoming a 4-lane road or an old RR bed becoming part of the fiber-optic 'backbone' of current technology.

 

3.) - This comment would explain why if this person was using a chipper to clear brush, he'd probably grind off a concrete monument - even if he saw it there!

 

(..sorry to wax poetic for so long - ther's a lot of sugar in the office this week!)

 

 

Also - I stopped by the mark Brik mentioned in original post - here's a visual:

d56a5600-ec9c-48ae-a589-0b163e411bb4.jpg

KW1997

5367c2af-eef9-4c8d-a152-ee4929c31d7b.jpg

 

- E

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