Religion Themed Caches

[+evelbug]

For once, I honestly _don't_ want to throw fuel on a fire...

 

I think your cache idea sounds good. This is what I'd do... First, e-mail you reviewer and see if (s)he'd approve the cache. No since in going throung all the effort of placing it if it wont get published.

 

Make sure the desription has a good history of the church. Also, don't make all the swag religious. Throw a couple "neutral" things in there.

 

Most importantly... have fun and don't take any negative feedback to heart.

 

Bug

 

And now for the smart-a[xx] part.... I think I'll go put some phamphlets in one of TWU's caches []

[+Renegade Knight]

I am considering placing a cache on the grounds of a historical local Catholic Church. I know that there has been much debate about religion and caches....but I'm being very clear about the contents of this cache. Is this appropriate?

 

The cache, an ammo can, is located in the woods just south of the cemetery. The cache contains some rosaries, prayer cards, Saint Medallions, and other Catholic oriented swag. Trade these items with anything you wish, so we can get some regular swag in this box too. The FTF prize is a cookbook compiled by the Ladies of St. Boniface (full of good southern dishes and deserts that you would find on the table at any of the Church’s many potluck dinners.)

 

What you have is a historical themed cache. SWAG placed in the cache that fits the historical nature of the location you have chosen is appropriate, especially since swag is just trade goods and not the cache or required to find it.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Now, would you be offended if I hid a really clever puzzle cache (Let's call it HMS Beagle) that was based on Darwin and the theory of evolution? It would take hours of research to find the clues to the puzzle. You would have to become totally immersed in the theory of evolution. What if your child tried to solve the puzzle when you weren't watching?...

 

You are skating the line. A Darwin themed cache would be excelent on whatever the heck island he was on, or at his office, or by the house he grew up in. Then the theme is historical in nature. Darwin and his ideas on natural selection are a huge part of modern history.

 

The puzzle for the sake of a puzzle is an interesting concept in that there are interesting things you can do with the bible or even evolution that actually have nothing to do with either the bible or evolution as written religion or scientific theory.

 

Case in point. The Bible has cyphers in it which I find interesting as heck. One of those revealed messages would be a great clue for a puzzle cache.

 

There would be ways to do the puzzle and ways to do the puzzle that can be ok or cross the line.

[+QuesterMark]

I might just place a micro at the church and stash my ammo box with neutral swag somewhere else. I was just trying to think of cache items that I myself would like to find.

 

Good way to go about it, actually.

 

I'm so tired of getting to a cache in a rather boring spot (and there are a lot of them out there), opening it and finding the following contents: half a barbie doll, an old hot wheels, a used eraser, a rusted pocket knife, a dirty matted stuffed animal, a you're going to hell phamplet, a plastic spider ring, and a broken happy meal toy. I carry pretty good stuff to swap, though I leave it in my bag most of the time and sign TNLN. Often I leave something nice and take nothing at all. (I would never never leave a religious item of any kind in someone else's cache, but I wouldn't take offense to finding a religious cache either.)

 

Don't forget to get that knife outta there when you see 'em...those aren't supposed to be in there either.

 

If people are going to take me to an uninteresting spot please have some good swag for me to trade. I don't mind a junky cache if the location is historical, beatuiful, neat, or otherwise of the beaten trail.

 

Agreed.

 

Neutrality is the best policy, simply because folks are too thick to read the cache discription that I will post. Then they find a box of Catholic oriented items and instead of just signing the log and moving on or skipping to the next cache, they start complaining about whatever. It takes a great deal to offend me. Sometimes I just assume that others are as hard-skinned as myself but I know that most people aren't.

 

I'd've just signed the log and moved on. And, of course, gotten any knives out that someone else might have left.

[+ReadyOrNot]

...Now, would you be offended if I hid a really clever puzzle cache (Let's call it HMS Beagle) that was based on Darwin and the theory of evolution? It would take hours of research to find the clues to the puzzle. You would have to become totally immersed in the theory of evolution. What if your child tried to solve the puzzle when you weren't watching?...

 

You are skating the line. A Darwin themed cache would be excelent on whatever the heck island he was on, or at his office, or by the house he grew up in. Then the theme is historical in nature. Darwin and his ideas on natural selection are a huge part of modern history.

 

The puzzle for the sake of a puzzle is an interesting concept in that there are interesting things you can do with the bible or even evolution that actually have nothing to do with either the bible or evolution as written religion or scientific theory.

 

Case in point. The Bible has cyphers in it which I find interesting as heck. One of those revealed messages would be a great clue for a puzzle cache.

 

There would be ways to do the puzzle and ways to do the puzzle that can be ok or cross the line.

 

This was a great example. If we are going to deny a catholic placing a catholic themed cache based on the fact that it may offend those that are not catholic, we must deny anything relating to evolution, because it will offend those that do not believe in evolution. I don't think it's skating a line at all. They are both theories and if we are going to exclude one, we must exclude both.

 

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

[+wimseyguy]

...FWIW I often trade sweet potato tracts for the religious tracts I sometimes find in caches. It is our official state vegetable, and very nutritious. The tracts have lots of good recipes in them. I once tried to hide a cache full of pasta and related recipes, but the reviewer told me that food shouldn't be in caches and it was archived.

 

You gol'danged sweet potato fundamentalist! You pusillanimous polecat! I am gonna forward your self-incriminating email (above) to the FBI's Sweet Potato Fundamentalist Enforcement Unit! Meanwhile, till the men in black suits come to visit, may your danged sweet potatoes develop blight!

Oh yeah? Take this you yamfidel!

Sweet Potato Creme Brulee

Ingredients:

* 2 large sweetpotatoes

* 1 3/4 cups sugar, divided

* 1/2 cup sour cream

* 2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice

* 3 cups whipping cream

* 1 vanilla bean

* 1 tablespoon vanilla

* 12 egg yolks

* sugar

 

Preparation:

Bake sweetpotatoes in center of 325 degree F oven until tender, about 1 hour. Peel sweetpotatoes and puree until smooth. Combine sweetpotato puree, 1/4 cup sugar, sour cream and lemon juice; mix well. Butter 10 (7-ounce) ramekins; sprinkle with sugar. Spoon 1/4-inch layer of sweetpotato mixture (about 3 tablespoons) into ramekins. Set ramekins in 9 x 13 x 2-inch baking dish; set aside. In saucepan, combine whipping cream, 3/4 cup sugar and vanilla bean. Bring to a boil, stirring occasionally. Remove from heat; and stir in vanilla. Mix egg yolks with remaining 3/4 cup sugar. Blend hot cream into egg yolk mixture. Fill ramekins with egg mixture. Place in center of oven at 325 degrees F. Pour enough hot water into baking dish to come halfway up sides of ramekins. Bake 55 minutes or until knife inserted near the center comes out clean. Remove ramekins from water to a wire rack and cool. Chill in refrigerator.

I can personally vouch for this one being really really good!

[cezanne]

Following your argument it appears to me that one would also need to object against caches hidden close-by a fast-food restaurant which are filled with cooking books listing exclusively recipes for dishes that all contain huge amounts of fat and calories. (You can make up the same story also with some vegan restaurant and cooking books based on that style of nutrition as well.) This can be seen as a sort of agenda as well, and most probably there exist people which are even offended by such a cache. Nevertheless, I prefer to keep the responsability with the cache hiders and seekers and object against reviewers interfering in such a way.

 

If you were to place a cache on the property of a fast food joint and fill it with trinkets advertizing that business there would be an objection.

 

I carefully chose the example. The cooking books I mentioned do not advertize a certain fast-food joint or vegan restaurant. They just are based on the respective nutrition style.

 

The reviewers wouldn't allow it.

 

If the issue is not advertising, they certainly will allow the cache in the area where I live.

 

Its the combination of the contents and location as well as the text on the cache page and cache name that will turn a cache into an agenda cache.

 

I agree as the text and the cache name are regarded, but the question here just referred to the combination of the first two aspects. For all what I wrote, I assumed that the text is not putting forward any agenda.

 

Let's look at yet another example: If someone happens to hide an ammo box filled with books written in Greek near a Greek restaurant in a country where almost noone speaks Greek, this might not be a good idea as most cachers would not want to perform a trade, but it would be ridiculous to claim that there is agenda behind the cache (for example, trying to convince the people to learn Greek). I would consider it as quite crazy to require that in such a case also books written in other languages are put into the box.

Caching could very well exist with no trading items at all. In my opinion, too much fuss is made about trading items at gc.com and all the requirements they should fulfill.

 

 

Cezanne

[+sbell111]

Has a reviewer weighed in on this issue? I suspect that the original cache idea might have been just fine.

[+Snoogans]

Has a reviewer weighed in on this issue? I suspect that the original cache idea might have been just fine.

 

Briansnat is a mod. Many mods get pressed into service as reviewers. But, who knows.....?

 

I think think the operative word in the guidelines is percieved.... As in:

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Boiling down the OP: (The FTF prize would be fine in ANY cache so I cut it.)

 

on the grounds of a historical local Catholic Church.

 

The cache contains some rosaries, prayer cards, Saint Medallions, and other Catholic oriented swag.

 

I could percieve an agenda from that if I was a reviewer, but some creative cache page text might get it approved IF the perception goes away.... Ummm, I think.....

[+Kabuthunk]

There's an old saying. You can't please everyone. There's a more accurate saying to the situation, but I forget how exactly it goes, so that'll do. Basically... no matter what anyone does, ever, anywhere, with anything in regards to the infinite possibilities of doing anything... someone will be offended. Sometimes, you just have to live with it.

 

I'm sure I'm one of the few that would be outweighed heavily by the many, but I still would like to add something. What I hate is when people are offended by religious anything. By that, I mean that some stores are no longer saying "Merry Christmas" to people, in fear of offending a non-christian. That's complete BS in my opinion. I say that whoever is wishing me a happy whatever should be able to say it however they want. If someone wishes me a Happy Hannakuh (or however that's spelled), or Kwanza, or whatever else... good for them. Why should people be ashamed of their religion to the point of not mentioning it to anyone?

 

Going by that, I'd say the cache is perfectly fine. If people want to avoid it, let them... no skin off your back.

*sigh* But again... I'm sure I'm amongst the minority.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I could percieve (sic) an agenda from that if I was a reviewer, but some creative cache page text might get it approved IF the perception goes away.... Ummm, I think.....

It is the perception that counts, not the intention.

I think that the original idea is OK, but I WOULD perceive an agenda unless the swaps were reasonably varied (as, it appears, they will be, so this issue is now merely a discussion point).

 

I might well be wrong, but if everything was Catholic-based I would suspect a sly attempt at promoting that particular religious group. I would NOT be offended, but I might have a wry smile at the cheek of this blatant advertising - no different from the wry smile at a burger joint whose nearby cache is full of their advertising material in their sly attempt to drum up extra trade.

 

To guard against suspicion of this type of chicanery, if I wanted to extol the virtues of a church I'd make sure that I didn't overdo the advertising - unless the church would enjoy comparisons with a cheap burger joint (perhaps some do? ).

[+Team Teuton]

Let's just treat religion based caches like Virts and start a new site for them. Call it www.credulouscachers.com

 

You could have virtual miracles and everything over there.

[+BlueDeuce]

I might well be wrong, but if everything was Catholic-based I would suspect a sly attempt at promoting that particular religious group. I would NOT be offended, but I might have a wry smile at the cheek of this blatant advertising -

 

Being Catholic I would have to wonder about all Catholic trades items too. First of all, I mean come on, talk about boring. God forbid I miss out on getting another set of rosary beads. . Second, what interest would a non-Catholic have in these items? Third, I'm not aware of having ever seen a tract preaching Catholicism, there might be a few out there but normally that’s not how we go about it. Nor do we think a rosary or medal left to the random finder is how to convert people.

[+ThreeRushkateers]

No offense to Snoogans, but I don't think an evolution cache is in the same league with this. Evolution isn't a religion. Maybe a better example would be a cache that had only atheism related swag, maybe at the headquarters of American Atheists. It could talk about the history of freethinkers in America and be filled with good books on this history. (Save the debate about whether or not atheism is a religion for now, please.)

 

How many of you Christians would support such a cache? Someone even mentioned that a Satanism cache would be crossing the line. Would it, really? Why? Because Satanism is uncommon and poorly understood by the general public? Is that a good reason?

 

If you would not support a similar cache relating to any non-mainstream religious opinion, you should not support this Catholic cache either. Most of you seem to me like you're saying you wouldn't be offended by it because you aren't offended by Catholicism.

 

My personal opinion is that I would avoid the cache and move on (I have a little over 100 finds, there are many other good caches out there). And yet, I don't like the idea of the cache being allowed. Simply because it is trying to further a religion. I think Americans would all be happier if we'd quit trying to convert each other and keep our religious opinions to ourselves (yes, I realize that's kind of a hypocritical statement here). I think there isn't an apparent "War on Christmas" or other such silliness in other parts of the world, like Europe, because over there, people keep it to themselves.

 

So, seriously, if it was an atheist/satanist/pagan/Jew/Muslim asking the question, would your responses have been the same? Would you still support it? Would you seek the cache?

[+Snoogans]

No offense to Snoogans, but I don't think an evolution cache is in the same league with this. Evolution isn't a religion.

 

No offense taken at all. I would have thought the same until yesterday when reading up on Arthur & Trillian's past posting history, I discovered the hubbub over a proposed Cacher Evolution geocoin.

 

It seems the mere mention of the "theory of evolution" causes some creationists varying degrees of alarm. The thought police were locking elbows and donning riot gear. The thread was quite entertaining.

 

I'm currently doing research for an evolution based geocache. I'll be posting a thread about it soon...

Edited November 22, 2006 by Snoogans

[Neos2]

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?

[+cimawr]

When combined with the church location, I would begin to suspect a sneaky agenda - not offensive, but not attractive either. I think that the OP would like an attractive cache.

 

How could it be "sneaky" if the hider tells people up front that the initial trade items are Catholic-themed??

And given that the plan wasn't to limit the cache ONLY to such items, I don't see what the problem with it would be.

Which, btw, I will mention that I am not a Christian, and would look for the cache anyway; I'd simply go in planning not to trade. I don't see it as any different than looking for a micro, doing a TNLNSL on a cache which doesn't have anything which appeals to me, or leaving an item without trading - all of which I do routinely.

 

OTOH, I was fairly annoyed when I went to a cache published as having a theme of toys for kids, and found- in addition to the toys - a whole bunch of books aimed at converting young people to a certain brand of Christianity. THAT is having an agenda, and IMO a pretty insensitive/obnoxious thing to do.

[KGunner]

Man...put whatever you want into your own cache. If people don't want to go to a religious cache then they don't have to. Nobody is forcing them to go to every single one. We do have a free exercise clause in the US.

[+Snoogans]

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?

 

Well there's an eye opener. Religious hypocrasy. Who'da thunkt THAT could ever happen.

[+Moose Mob]

Has a reviewer weighed in on this issue? I suspect that the original cache idea might have been just fine.

I guess that is possible...

 

The original idea is on the edge, but fine as is. As long as the cache page didn't push the issue I would be fine with it.

 

Folks need to remember that this is supposed to be a light and fun sport. Pushing a personal agenda or belief doesn't mesh well with that concept. When things get too serious, then it's time to back up and reevaluate.

[+Sioneva]

When I read the suggestions given to you in some replies to restrict yourself to neutral stuff, I was quite amazed that people believe that such items do exist. Actually, most items in the real world are not neutral at all.

I took "neutral stuff" in this context to mean "not making any particular point / without an agenda". A random mix of varied items fits that description.

Someone who believes that, for example, a leather wallet produced in Asia by poor exploited children is something superior to a rosary, is in my opinion acting in a quite hypocritical manner. The only solution to achieve real neutrality would be forbid trade items in caches at all.

 

No cacher is forced to trade. If he/she does not like the swag in a certain cache, a TNLN action is always possible.

I don't think that anyone was suggesting that certain items are "superior" or otherwise, it's just that the rosary (if accompanied solely by other religious trinkets) would appear to be emphasising a "religious" theme. When combined with the church location, I would begin to suspect a sneaky agenda - not offensive, but not attractive either. I think that the OP would like an attractive cache.

 

Oh, I'd find that cache very attractive, actually.

[+Trucker Lee]

I am considering placing a cache on the grounds of a historical local Catholic Church. I know that there has been much debate about religion and caches....but I'm being very clear about the contents of this cache. Is this appropriate?

 

 

I'd have to agree. I am a religious person myself, and I think sharing God's word with others is an important aspect of the faith.

 

having said that, however, there are those who would take offense at this type of cache, and I'd be surprised if it got published in the first place. If I were a local reviewer (and please don't take that as an offer!) I would have to say no. Location is great, and interesting, but the SWAG would have to be neutral. Above all things, caches must remain neutral lest others think they are being excluded.

--MGb

 

Sorry, I have to differ here. Place the cache only with permission, and state clearly on the description page that it contains themed items due to it's location. Those who hunt it still have no gripe then.

 

I get so tired of worrying about hurting someone's feelings or pride. It is life people, sometimes you may not agree with something. GET OVER IT!!

[+Sioneva]

Let's just treat religion based caches like Virts and start a new site for them. Call it www.credulouscachers.com

 

You could have virtual miracles and everything over there.

 

That was rather nasty to read. Straying close to the line of attacking there.

[Mushtang]

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?

 

Well there's an eye opener. Religious hypocrasy. Who'da thunkt THAT could ever happen.

"we're all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like" = "Everyone else should ignore the stuff that they don't like, but I'll destroy things that offend me and my religion".

 

Snoogans, what about this do you find hypocritical?

[Keystone]

Let's just treat religion based caches like Virts and start a new site for them. Call it www.credulouscachers.com

 

You could have virtual miracles and everything over there.

 

That was rather nasty to read. Straying close to the line of attacking there.

Agreed. The quoted post added nothing to the discussion. In addition to being off topic, it attacks people who value their religious beliefs. Fair warning flag, one free bite, whatever you wish to call it... there will be no further posts of that nature. Thanks.

[+Snoogans]

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?

 

Well there's an eye opener. Religious hypocrisy. Who'da thunkt THAT could ever happen.

"we're all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like" = "Everyone else should ignore the stuff that they don't like, but I'll destroy things that offend me and my religion".

 

Snoogans, what about this do you find hypocritical?

 

Ummm, all of it?

 

Religious Intolerance:

a) Refusing to acknowledge and support the right of individuals to have their own beliefs and related legitimate practices.

Also, the unwillingness to have one's own beliefs and related practices critically evaluated

 

Having been raised at first Catholic and then Christian I have had my share of religious experience. I have worked with/for Muslims for the last 19 years and they all teach the basic tolerance of other faiths. Regardless of what we see in the media tolerance is basic to monotheistic religion.

 

Religious Tolerance:

Acknowledging and supporting that individuals have the right and freedom to their own beliefs and related legitimate practices, without necessarily validating those beliefs or practices.

 

Ask any Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam and you will hear that tolerance is basic to their true belief.

 

To take the Wiccan items from a TB and assume that you are doing it a favor, you are practicing religious persecution.

 

Religious Persecution:

The practice of discouraging religious freedom and the freedom to express and/or promote all or certain religious beliefs - with repercussions ranging from discrimination and harassment to prevention and prosecution.

 

Were the items not discriminated against and prevented from moving on?

 

Sorry for the long OT remark.

[+mgbmusic]

 

I guess we should stop argueing about issues like that - it is getting too philosophical for this forum.

--Snip--

 

Whew! Agreed. It's been a while since I took philosophy...I completely understand where you're coming from and, from the reactions of this forum, I'll concede. I would just hate to have the OP go through all the trouble of collecting the themed SWAG, placing the cache, and submitting it, only to have it turned down for what might be perceived as an "Agenda" (which it really is, but we're not going there...j/k).

 

Anywho, that's my 2 cents, and it prolly doesn't mean all that much.

 

--MGb

[+ReadyOrNot]

A cache that has "An Agenda" is very specific I believe. Just because there is some Christian items or some evolution related items doesn't mean it has an agenda. Churches are some of the most beautiful locations in this country and visiting them has historical context as well as religious context. If it was a requirement to go inside the church, confess your sins, and get the next coordinates to the multi only after confession, I would have to draw the line.. But I think we are all grown up enough to ignore what we don't like. Like was said previously, if we banned something just because someone was offended, nothing would be allowed.

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?

 

Well there's an eye opener. Religious hypocrasy. Who'da thunkt THAT could ever happen.

 

You know what.. You are correct.. I did remove the skull and crossbones from the TB. And you are correct in that it contradicts the statement I just made. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It reminds me that everyday I continue to grow as a human being. It's very humbling to know that you are keeping track of my posts and helping me maintain my integrity. It's nice to know that there are people in these forums that care so much that they are willing to help a person to grow.

 

God Bless You!

Edited November 23, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+ReadyOrNot]

Were the items not discriminated against and prevented from moving on?

Sorry for the long OT remark.

 

You know what. I am going to make it a point to find that TB and give it a big hug and apology. I didn't realize that my actions hurt so many people. Please find it in your heart to forgive me.

Edited November 23, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+Snoogans]

Were the items not discriminated against and prevented from moving on?

Sorry for the long OT remark.

 

You know what. I am going to make it a point to find that TB and give it a big hug and apology. I didn't realize that my actions hurt so many people. Please find it in your heart to forgive me.

 

Forgiven. We all have our little prejudices. As I said in my first post, I couldn't abide a Satanist cache, but just about every other faith on the planet was fine by me as cache worthy. That's pretty much why the guideline against ALL religious caches is a sound one.

 

Someone else pointed out that Satanism was misunderstood. I honestly don't care to understand it. Being Agnostic (I refuse to define The Undefinable.) I can take the good from all faiths, but I have no desire at all to find out what is good about Satanism. I draw a line there. It's a double standard that doesn't nag my conscience.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Snoogans

[+msrubble]

It sounds like good swag to me. But if it is all "Catholic" swag, people are likely to get the impression that you have an agenda. More so than if you set out a themed cache that was all one soccer team. Think of how a non-Catholic, maybe with young children, would react.

 

Some kinds of swag could fit the theme without seeming to push an agenda. The FTF prize of a cookbook, for example. Maybe postcards or bookmarks or refrigerator magnets with photos of the church. Some of the prayer cards might be attractive to other Christians or even people of other faiths.

 

Maybe the best approach would be to have a mix of trade items. Some for children, some for adults, some swag with no religious connection. You can certainly say that the cache is starting out with some swag that fits the location and that you think Catholics will like. If you as the cache owner are willing to visit periodically to make sure that there is always some special Catholic swag, you should say so.

 

The main goal is a rewarding experience for visitors. If a good proportion of the swag is not Catholics-only, and especially if you are willing to restock the cache with special items, I think cachers in the area would appreciate the theme and not feel as if the cache owner is proselytizing.

[+Alan2]

The prohibition against caches of this type and other restrictions are not driven by cachers but by management who wishes to preserve "political correctness" - not to upset anyone. The rules also intend to not offend outsiders who might place restrictions on caching.

 

This minimizes the number of people who might be offended and maximizes the number of dues-paying caching members. This is a business after all.

 

The pros and cons of cachers are beside the point.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Alan2

[+Clothahump]

 

I'd have to agree. I am a religious person myself, and I think sharing God's word with others is an important aspect of the faith.

 

And an incredibly annoying one. If you want to believe that stuff, knock yourself out. But don't inflict it on others.

 

I vote against the cache.

[+VeryLost]

Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB

 

You are correct.. I did remove the skull and crossbones from the TB.

 

Since when is a skull and crossbones a Wiccan item? I can think of a couple of meanings for the skull and crossbones symbology (pirates, poison, etc) but none that relate to Wicca. If you're going to single out a particular religion as inappropriate, at least please have the good grace to be able to identify it properly.

[+cimawr]

 

Someone else pointed out that Satanism was misunderstood. I honestly don't care to understand it. Being Agnostic (I refuse to define The Undefinable.) I can take the good from all faiths, but I have no desire at all to find out what is good about Satanism.

 

I do hope you're not equating Satanism with Wicca/Paganism. They are VERY different things.

[+QuesterMark]

 

You know what.. You are correct.. I did remove the skull and crossbones from the TB. And you are correct in that it contradicts the statement I just made. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It reminds me that everyday I continue to grow as a human being. It's very humbling to know that you are keeping track of my posts and helping me maintain my integrity. It's nice to know that there are people in these forums that care so much that they are willing to help a person to grow.

 

God Bless You!

 

I always thought Skull & Crossbones meant pirates. Or poison.

[+BlueDeuce]

The prohibition against caches of this type and other restrictions are not driven by cachers but by management who wishes to preserve "political correctness" - not to upset anyone.

 

So how does this make you feel?

[+cimawr]

 

I always thought Skull & Crossbones meant pirates. Or poison.

 

Yup.

And I've never seen the symbol equated with Wicca and/or paganism; however, I HAVE seen it equated with Catholicism, specifically with the Day of the Dead as celebrated by some Hispanic cultures.

 

In any case, it's still incredibly offensive and narrowminded for someone to decide that an object is "inappropriate" because s/he thinks it's related to another religion.

[+Snoogans]

 

Someone else pointed out that Satanism was misunderstood. I honestly don't care to understand it. Being Agnostic (I refuse to define The Undefinable.) I can take the good from all faiths, but I have no desire at all to find out what is good about Satanism.

 

I do hope you're not equating Satanism with Wicca/Paganism. They are VERY different things.

 

From my first post to this thread:

 

Heck, I'm never offended when I find religious tracts and other religious items in a cache. They are no threat to me.

 

Being Agnostic, (whatever floats your boat is just fine by me and also having been born Catholic) I wouldn't/couldn't be offended by that cache. A Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Wicca, or Pagan cache couldn’t offend me either. I think a Church of Satan cache would cross the line with me though. (Is that an Agnostic double standard?) Ask yourself if you would be offended by any of those in your neighborhood.

 

I find belief systems to be fascinating. I choose not to be blinded by narrow my perspective by following one faith when I can take the positive from all faiths.

 

I have several friends who are Wiccan/Pagan and have discussed their religion at length. They are ancient religions and I understand them well enough to know they are as harmless as your more modern religions.

 

A true Agnostic neither fears nor wholly embraces ANY particuler religion. We choose not to decide.

 

If I'm on my deathbed, send a Priest, a Rabbi, a Monk, an Imam, or a Shamen. Heck, send 'em all. Maybe I'll be saved from all of their versions of hell.

 

Still, if you can't say yes to all of the religions for cache themes then it's prudent to leave them behind as the guideline states. I can, save that one.... Slip, meet slope.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Snoogans

[+Alan2]

The prohibition against caches of this type and other restrictions are not driven by cachers but by management who wishes to preserve "political correctness" - not to upset anyone.

 

So how does this make you feel?

 

I don't like micromanagement but then again it's their web page. Not much you can do about it except complain. Remember when not too long ago we all had a scale on the left that management would gage our forum posts and if they were not according to their standards you'd get a "demerit"? Too many demerits and you'd get banned by the forummeister. This is kind of the same thing. This is management trying to keep everything non-controversial because controversy is bad for business - their business.

 

If a cacher places a cache that seekers don't like, they'll stop going to those type and stop visiting that particular cacher's hides. His cache visits will suffer. It's like MOC's. I wouldn't go to those even though I could. If people set up caches that turn some people off and turn some others on, then that's OK with me. Those interested in churches and religious itmes will go, other won't. Those interested in filling their containers with miniature staplers - some will be interest and some won't be. Why are religious themes singled out? What is it my business to judge what others are interested in? What's not interesting to some might be intersting to others. Or people will go and not trade. Let the market decide.

[Luckless]

"Aren't you the same guy who claimed that he took the wiccan items off a keychain TB out of a cache because they were "inappropriate"? Does this mean that you have changed your opinion about censorship of religous views?"

 

I find this a little disturbing. A TB is someone else's property (and registered as such). No one should be altering them without permission.

[+michigansnorkelers]

Much ado about nothing?

 

Lets face it.

 

In short time, all the original swag in the cache will be gone. Exchanged or pilfered, but gone.

 

What will be interesting is what will remain in their place.

 

If general trade items, then it just becomes another cache.

 

If religious items, then the local geocaching community has spoken.

 

Either way, the problem solves itself.

 

If you outlaw religious-themed caches, then only outlaws will have religious-themed caches.

[+Snoogans]

If you outlaw religious-themed caches, then only outlaws will have religious-themed caches.

 

I corrected for you.

 

If gc.com refuses to publish religious-themed caches, then only Terracachers will have religious-themed caches.

[+ReadyOrNot]

What will be interesting is what will remain in their place.

If general trade items, then it just becomes another cache.

If religious items, then the local geocaching community has spoken.

Either way, the problem solves itself.

 

Exactly! Let the community determine what is acceptable or not.

 

Just to explain a little bit regarding the TB that I altered.... The original TB did not contain the "Wiccan" item. It was not a simple "Skull and Crossbones", but I didn't know how else to describe it. Someone else had added the item to the keychain (the orginal photo on the TB page did not have it on it). So, I actually restored the TB to it's original condition. The "Theme" of the TB had absolutely nothing to do with what someone had attached to it.

 

Just thought it needed a little bit more explanation.

 

Thanks!

[+Snoogans]

What will be interesting is what will remain in their place.

If general trade items, then it just becomes another cache.

If religious items, then the local geocaching community has spoken.

Either way, the problem solves itself.

 

Exactly! Let the community determine what is acceptable or not.

 

I actually agree with you here, but I doubt that the guideline will change with regard to Religion themed caches and it bothers me not one bit. The logic is sound.

 

From your profile and avatar, I can see you are very outwardly proud of your faith.

 

Again, I'm pretty sure I could create a puzzle cache based on the theory of evolution. It would support no agenda, because to solve the puzzle all you would have to do is look up facts related to Darwin and his controversial theory. In doing so you would become exposed to/immersed in the theory of evolution. It would be very historically and scientifically educational.

 

Would you hunt it if it was in the woods less than 5 miles from your home? Would you let your children solve the puzzle? Or would you hope for it to be muggled and archived?

 

Just to explain a little bit regarding the TB that I altered.... The original TB did not contain the "Wiccan" item. It was not a simple "Skull and Crossbones", but I didn't know how else to describe it. Someone else had added the item to the keychain (the orginal photo on the TB page did not have it on it). So, I actually restored the TB to it's original condition. The "Theme" of the TB had absolutely nothing to do with what someone had attached to it.

 

Just thought it needed a little bit more explanation.

 

Thanks!

 

Travel bugs have a life of their own. That has been established.

 

If the owner of the TB didn't ask you to remove the item then your conscience is not clear. There is no rationalizing it. You practiced religious persecution against the item you removed and tossed.

 

It's not like you harmed a person, it was just a thing. If you're feeling guilty about it then maybe you need to forgive yourself and think about what you're doing the next time you feel the urge to practice religious persecution.

 

Religious Persecution:

The practice of discouraging religious freedom and the freedom to express and/or promote all or certain religious beliefs - with repercussions ranging from discrimination and harassment to prevention and prosecution.

 

Religious Intolerance:

a) Refusing to acknowledge and support the right of individuals to have their own beliefs and related legitimate practices.

B ) Also, the unwillingness to have one's own beliefs and related practices critically evaluated

 

Religious Tolerance:

Acknowledging and supporting that individuals have the right and freedom to their own beliefs and related legitimate practices, without necessarily validating those beliefs or practices.

[+cimawr]

 

Just to explain a little bit regarding the TB that I altered.... The original TB did not contain the "Wiccan" item. It was not a simple "Skull and Crossbones", but I didn't know how else to describe it. Someone else had added the item to the keychain (the orginal photo on the TB page did not have it on it). So, I actually restored the TB to it's original condition. The "Theme" of the TB had absolutely nothing to do with what someone had attached to it.

 

Just thought it needed a little bit more explanation.

 

 

Sorry, but that explanation isn't quite cutting it with me...

 

First, it's not up to you to decide what to do with someone else's TB, unless the item attached was one that was physically dangerous. The appropriate thing to do would have been to e-mail the TB's owner and ask what s/he wanted done, not take it on yourself to censor things.

 

Second, did the TB have other items attached? If so, why didn't you remove them all?

 

Third, that still doesn't explain why you felt it necessary to deem the item "inappropriate" FOR THE REASON that it was, in your opinion, "Wiccan". If it had been a cross, would you have deemed in "inappropriate" and removed it? How about if it had been a Star of David?

 

Bottom line: the mere fact that you claimed an item was "inappropriate" BECAUSE IT RELATED TO A DIFFERENT FAITH is offensive, sorry. I'm not interested in the Christian items I often find in caches, and sometimes find them mildly offensive, but I wouldn't dream of doing anything to or with them simply because they're not related to my spiritual beliefs.

[+cimawr]

 

From my first post to this thread:

 

Heck, I'm never offended when I find religious tracts and other religious items in a cache. They are

 

Being Agnostic, (whatever floats your boat is just fine by me and also having been born Catholic) I wouldn't/couldn't be offended by that cache. A Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Wicca, or Pagan cache couldn’t offend me either. I think a Church of Satan cache would cross the line with me though. (Is that an Agnostic double standard?) Ask yourself if you would be offended by any of those in your neighborhood.

 

 

Ah, it'd slipped my mind that you were the person who posted that - sorry! Still, it's worth repeating the point that Wicca/Paganism and Satanism are very different things, given that so many "Christians" insist on lumping them all together.

 

(I put "Christians" in quotes because IMO, people who practice religious intolerance are NOT following the teachings of Jesus; personally, I think he'd be ashamed of a very large percentage of the folks in the U.S. who claim to be his followers.)

 

 

I have several friends who are Wiccan/Pagan and have discussed their religion at length. They are ancient religions and I understand them well enough to know they are as harmless as your more modern religions.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that; I think Wicca/Paganism is MORE harmless than most modern religions.

 

Still, if you can't say yes to all of the religions for cache themes then it's prudent to leave them behind as the guideline states. I can, save that one.... Slip, meet slope.

 

I agree; getting back to the original post, that particular cache didn't really seem "themed" to me, given that the OP intended to state all sorts of trade items were welcome.

[+VeryLost]

Third, that still doesn't explain why you felt it necessary to deem the item "inappropriate" FOR THE REASON that it was, in your opinion, "Wiccan". If it had been a cross, would you have deemed in "inappropriate" and removed it? How about if it had been a Star of David?

 

That's the part that has bothered me since I first ran across his post publicizing what he'd done. I don't recall seeing a direct answer to the question "Had it been a cross instead of a 'Wiccan' item, would you have removed it?" As you can imagine, I have my suspicions on that point.

 

I'm not interested in the Christian items I often find in caches, and sometimes find them mildly offensive, but I wouldn't dream of doing anything to or with them simply because they're not related to my spiritual beliefs.

 

I was faced with this last weekend when several of the caches I found contained a little "Are you saved" pamphlet/booklet. Were I to use ReadOrNot's behavior as a guideline I would have removed them as offensive. Instead, I settled for just rolling my eyes and chuckling - it's not like finding a moldy piece of paper in a bit of Tupperware in the woods is likely to change someone's religion.

[+BlueDeuce]

I was faced with this last weekend when several of the caches I found contained a little "Are you saved" pamphlet/booklet. Were I to use ReadOrNot's behavior as a guideline I would have removed them as offensive.

 

There is only one rule about removing trade items from a cache. Trade even, trade up or don't trade at all.

Whether you took the items because you liked them or found them offensive doesn't concern me in the slightest, as long as you follow the rule.

 

As for the trade value? You’ll have to decide that for yourself.

[+ReadyOrNot]

people who practice religious intolerance are NOT following the teachings of Jesus; personally, I think he'd be ashamed of a very large percentage of the folks in the U.S. who claim to be his followers.

 

"Noone comes to the father except through me"... Jesus Christ was NOT tollerant of other religions. What are you talking about??? Jesus Christ did not teach tollerance. Jesus Christ taught to love everyone, regardless of what they believe. He did not teach that all religions are equal or that all paths lead to God. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your use of the word "Tollerance" (its the new buzz word lately).

 

Let's at least be honest about what Christianity is and what it isn't...