Getting frustrated...

[+biosearch]

I'm trying to do the right thing. I'm contacting the local authorities to let them know if I am placing a cache or asking permission if I need to. I'm running into roadblocks. Today I took the time to go to the local university police department and let them know that I was going to be placing a cache on the edge of the campus, border, in case the campus security noticed anything that they thought was out of place. I was told, and I'm still trying to figure this one out, that the sidewalk on the public street outside the edge of the campus was campus property, regardless of what the maps at the city planning commission say (I have a friend who works there and I've checked). Additionally I've been told that campus property is off-limits to individuals who are not staff or students, especially after hours, and they can be asked to leave or (for a second offense) arrested. (I'm still trying to figure out how town residents or visitors attend football games). I've even offered to give do a training session concerning geocaching to the campus officers and actually teach them how to use the gps units that they use for work that they know very little about. And still I run into this...

 

Anyhow, I'm following the rules, not placing caches on private property, informing the local officials and I am still running into roadblocks. Why? It isn't as if I'm destroying property, placing them on nature preserves with threatened/endangered plant species, destroying property, interfering with other individuals rights, etc., etc.

 

Are others having this much of a problem or are others simply not checking with the authorities and just doing their thing?

 

Just frustrated and need to let off steam/rant....

[+Kabuthunk]

From what I can see, the officers are thinking "I don't understand this, so it's not allowed, because if I don't understand it, it could be either good or bad, but why take chances". And then... they're just being beligerant by refusing to understand it. Non-staff can be kicked off campus? Man... sucks to be people visiting for any reason.

 

If you wanted to be vengeful, you could post a big sign on the sidewalk (seeing as that's campus property ) saying "Any non-staff, non-student can be kicked off or arrested from this sidewalk by the campus police at any given time or place" You wouldn't be breaking the law... you're just informing others of the useful information that you were given

Edited November 14, 2006 by Kabuthunk

[+Sagefox]

The easiest way to solve this problem is to cross the street and keep working your way farther from the campus until you find a good place for the hide. It is not worth it to fight "city hall" as they say.

 

As a point of reference, though, I've been finding caches on college and university campuses for 5 years so your situation may be a bit unique.

 

You probably asked the wrong people but since you've talked to security and they said no, and since you've posted your plight here you now know there is a risk to finders if you place this cache. If someone gets hassled then you, in effect, set them up for that.

 

The big question for you is if there is a risk that security will hassle people attempting to find your cache... Do you want to have placed a cache that produces negative vibes? Do you want people to regret they attempted your cache?

 

The entire rest of the world is across that street so it should not be too hard to find better place.

[+SG-MIN]

hey wait a sec biosearch, aren't you an employee of WKU??

[+Torry]

Quite often one's property will extend out to the street and sometimes include portions of the shoulder and sidewalk. Thus you can be held liable for injuries on your part of the sidewalk even though it's a public walkway and you may be required to keep it clear at all times.

The school police are most likely aware of this liability (Which is why so many are strigently enforcing a no-skate-boarding policy... you would not believe how many people sue when their kids get hurt doing kinks and rails) and wish to avoid anything that might disrupt the status quo.

I'm willing to bet that most cache placers who've placed caches on campuses were less diligent than you and just did so under the blanket "Government-owned + publicly accesible = Okay to place" concept.

 

I certainly appreciate and applaud your willingness to seek permission first. It speaks well of your sense of responsibility.

[+Renegade Knight]

Your first mistake was talking to campus security about permission. They are in charge of security, not the campus grounds. The person you spoke with probably didnt' want to bother explaining who all could actually go to the U and why, it would fill pages and pages so they kept it simple so as to tell you "No" which as Kabuthunk has explained why.

 

If you want permission find who's in charge of the grounds. That may prove hard enough as it is.

[+Renegade Knight]

...The big question for you is if there is a risk that security will hassle people attempting to find your cache... Do you want to have placed a cache that produces negative vibes? Do you want people to regret they attempted your cache?...

 

At the U in Logan Utah I was approached by campus security while looking for a cache. Probably in the public right of way and not actually on campus. Regardless it was on campus. The guard asked us what we were doing, we told him. He liked the idea of caching and helped is with directions around campus for the next several caches.

[+biosearch]

hey wait a sec biosearch, aren't you an employee of WKU??

Staff, yea, go figure. One of the reasons I'm trying to do it right?

 

By the way, I went into a church just down the street from my house (I mention this because I saw your profile) and asked about placing one there. I was dismissed off hand. Won't put one there. It just seems that when I ask permission, which is what one should do, it doesn't work.

Edited November 14, 2006 by biosearch

[+biosearch]

The entire rest of the world is across that street so it should not be too hard to find better place.

 

Understand, and I've started looking and have a couple of good ideas that I may be able to actually pitch to the city for a couple of reasons. One of them is a possible CITO event, for those of you in the area and want to respond.

 

The thing is, there are a good number of micros on campus, and since I'm getting a bit tired of finding micros (no I'm not trying to start that thing again) I wanted to place a full sized cache. In cities, as you well know, it is difficult, and I've found a fantastic place on campus. But again, it is on campus. I'm still looking as you suggested.

[+biosearch]

If you want permission find who's in charge of the grounds. That may prove hard enough as it is.

The campus security did give me that name of the individual at student activities, thinking that they would be the people/person to talk to. I'm guessing that it will be the next step in the chain of "pass you off to the next person" (I had twelve years in the Army to learn how that game works and can see it coming a long way off).

[+biosearch]

I certainly appreciate and applaud your willingness to seek permission first. It speaks well of your sense of responsibility.

You really don't know me.... My wife and children would strongly disagree with you...

 

I guess the thing that really has me at this point is that I really enjoy this, have discovered some neat places that I never would have gone otherwise and want to continue. However, when I run into this sort of reaction I have to ask myself, why do they look at this as if it is unacceptable. I'm not talking about the liability issue, I'm thinking more on the lines of the fact that they find it weird or unusual. As if any other hobby makes any sense. Just babbling, sorry....

[+Torry]

hey wait a sec biosearch, aren't you an employee of WKU??

Staff, yea, go figure. One of the reasons I'm trying to do it right?

 

By the way, I went into a church just down the street from my house (I mention this because I saw your profile) and asked about placing one there. I was dismissed off hand. Won't put one there. It just seems that when I ask permission, which is what one should do, it doesn't work.

 

But, PLEASE, do not become one of those folks who decides to place it anyways. There seems to be too much of that around.

[+SG-MIN]

I have generally been successful (lucky) in getting permission. I have found if you play to their egos and and offer a good explanation it tends to work. Also, knowing the people to contact is essential. Sometimes the best permission comes from the lowest rung on the totem pole, sometimes from the highest.

 

For instance, I talked to the events coordinator at the Corvette Museum and he was stoked about placing one - I just told him how it could improve traffic. I also talked to the people at the RC airport here and stroked their ego about how it would get them good exposure. Both times it worked out. Also, I have even talked to the KY Horse Park and the KY DOT and all have been super helpful.

 

In most cases email worked best because you can start by asking if they are the right person to talk to - that avoids a premature no. Also, you can fully describe what you want and how it benefits them.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

[edit to clarify]

Edited November 14, 2006 by SG-MIN

[+biosearch]

hey wait a sec biosearch, aren't you an employee of WKU??

Staff, yea, go figure. One of the reasons I'm trying to do it right?

 

By the way, I went into a church just down the street from my house (I mention this because I saw your profile) and asked about placing one there. I was dismissed off hand. Won't put one there. It just seems that when I ask permission, which is what one should do, it doesn't work.

 

But, PLEASE, do not become one of those folks who decides to place it anyways. There seems to be too much of that around.

Not only will I not do that, I can't, is just against everything I've ever done. Spent too many years following the rules word for word. I suppose that is one of the reasons I've gotten so annoyed. Is this that odd a thing, I mean geocaching? Is it any more bizarre than beating a little white ball all over hundreds of yards of perfectly manicured lawns, or sitting in the cold holding a stick with a piece of string and a hook hanging off it in the water, or.... fill in the blank? It seems that geocaching is looked at almost as if it is just so bizarre as to be abnormal.

 

I don't know, kinda down after trying to do this the right way.... Stupid, yes... Funny thing is I went out this weekend to the event in E-town. Got there late but found them anyway. They were great people, the place that they went to cache was fabulous, the whole area is a spectacular area to just hike, better yet to cache. It may be that I saw that and am just envious.

[+MountainMudbug]

Is this that odd a thing, I mean geocaching? Is it any more bizarre than beating a little white ball all over hundreds of yards of perfectly manicured lawns, or sitting in the cold holding a stick with a piece of string and a hook hanging off it in the water, or.... fill in the blank? It seems that geocaching is looked at almost as if it is just so bizarre as to be abnormal.

 

The big difference is that most (if not all) people are familiar with golf and fishing and similar activies, and there are 'designated areas' where those things are done. Geocaching is largely obscure since most people have no clue about it. Additionaly, caching can be done just about anywhere, anytime, and it can also look extremely suspicious to those not 'in the know'. I mean, I know I look weird when walking in circles, poking around in bushes.

And I get the feeling that some folks' eye just glaze over when you try to explain GPS and geocaching to them. "Uh, techno stuff.... whatever."

[+biosearch]

The big difference is that most (if not all) people are familiar with golf and fishing and similar activies, and there are 'designated areas' where those things are done. Geocaching is largely obscure since most people have no clue about it. Additionaly, caching can be done just about anywhere, anytime, and it can also look extremely suspicious to those not 'in the know'. I mean, I know I look weird when walking in circles, poking around in bushes.

And I get the feeling that some folks' eye just glaze over when you try to explain GPS and geocaching to them. "Uh, techno stuff.... whatever."

I suppose so. Although I've seen odder things. If you think about it however, geocaching makes more sense. You learn more about the world around you, it is not confined to one area or venue and you are actually using a skill in land navigating, not to mention the skill/research that is necessary to place a good cache. I suppose that I should just deal with it and stop sniveling....

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Geocaching is a clandestine activity. If everyone knew where all of the geocaches were, and if we didn't have to sneak around and look suspicious, then would it be fun? I mean, must I sell drugs instead of trading swag, or spraypaint a wall instead of signing a log just to get that thrill? Hey everybody, I'm placing a geocache! No, really, you were very good. It was the right thing to do. I guess that's just something we have to work with.

[+MountainMudbug]

I suppose so. Although I've seen odder things. If you think about it however, geocaching makes more sense. You learn more about the world around you, it is not confined to one area or venue and you are actually using a skill in land navigating, not to mention the skill/research that is necessary to place a good cache. I suppose that I should just deal with it and stop sniveling....

 

Oh, I fully agree with you, but I think we (cachers) are in a small minority. Even other people who use GPS technology for land navigation (marking fishing holes, hunting spots, etc.) sometimes just "don't get" the point in geocaching, though why is totally beyond me! It is a fun, educational, healthy activity but I guess it comes across as weird to others, and it may even appear subversive or 'dangerous' in some instances.

My husband, for example, is of middle eastern descent and he pretty much flat out refuses to cache with me because he is afraid that 'authority figures' will think he is up to no good if they see him with a GPS or taking pictures near buildings. At least, that is his excuse for not going, but maybe he's fibbing 'cause he'd rather be home watching football

[+biosearch]

My husband, for example, is of middle eastern descent and he pretty much flat out refuses to cache with me because he is afraid that 'authority figures' will think he is up to no good if they see him with a GPS or taking pictures near buildings. At least, that is his excuse for not going, but maybe he's fibbing 'cause he'd rather be home watching football

In today's environment I don't blame your husband one bit. Getting inquiring looks as a person of obvious European decent is one thing, having a middle eastern background would be very difficult in this sort of circumstances we find ourselves in today. A sign of the times, not a good one (and yet another topic) but there it is.

 

Now, the issue with football, you really need to talk to him about that. There is just something wrong with a person who sits and stares at a screen for hours a d.... before I continue, computer's don't count....

[+benh57]

I'd wager over 50% of all caches on this website are placed without permission. Maybe higher.

 

It's kinda the unspoken truth of the whole activity.

[+Woodlit]

Been talked about many times before. You were denied because you asked. If you would have just placed it, everything would probably have worked out just fine. I have also found several caches on college campus grounds. Was asked what I was doing once, and after security realized I wasn't stealing anything, they didn't care.

Just my .02

[CoyoteRed]

IF permission is needed, never ask security for permission as they aren't the decision makers anyway. Allows try to go directly to the person in charge of the site. Ask for permission to do something that would draw more visitors and highlight their area of interest. Focus on them getting more visitors so they can show off what they are doing there, not allowing you to play a game on their site.

 

Sometimes workload comes into play so make sure to let them know there is no to minimal workload increase.

 

Now, Mr. Head Honcho might hand you off to some underlings, maybe even to someone in security, but now you approach it from "Mr. Honcho said..."

 

Hope this helps.

[Clan Riffster]

Red nailed it. Security is probably the worst people you could possibly ask for permission to do anything. Security's job is crime prevention, with a dollop of information booth thrown in. They can tell you what rules exist on the property they babysit, but they have no authority to make decisions on things outside the scope of their duties.

 

Quite often, the person most likely to grant permission will be the person in charge of promoting the campus, recruiting next year's students. They can be convinced that geocaching will draw lots of folks to their campus, which will definitely benefit their cause. Once you have the OK from the Promotions Director, (or whatever they call themselves), then you can go to security to simply inform them of what you're doing and who told you it was OK.

[+SG-MIN]

there you go... great advice.

[+biosearch]

Quite often, the person most likely to grant permission will be the person in charge of promoting the campus, recruiting next year's students. They can be convinced that geocaching will draw lots of folks to their campus, which will definitely benefit their cause. Once you have the OK from the Promotions Director, (or whatever they call themselves), then you can go to security to simply inform them of what you're doing and who told you it was OK.

Security gave me the name to the student activities coordinator/individual, that is my next stop. Learning process.

 

And yes, many of the caches are probably placed without permission, doesn't mean I will, even if it means far less placed caches.

 

Wish me luck with this guy...

[+baloo&bd]

Security gave me the name to the student activities coordinator/individual, that is my next stop. Learning process.

 

This will be a watse of your time as they would not have the authority to do anything. As has been noted before, contact the person in charge of the grounds. This would be the one responsible for landscaping, maintenance and repairs fo the facility grounds.

 

Now, if you want to plan a car wash around your cache, the student activities coordinator is the goto guy.

[+SG-MIN]

Actually, I would disagree with you Baloo. Student Activities would probably be over all things related to events on campus.

 

I have found the best place to go is the person for whom saying yes is easiest. For instance, when I talked to the KY Department of Transportation, I talked to the Publicity person and not the head engineer or the safety guy. I got a quick yes from an official source.

 

Likewise, the Student Activities person is all about things happening on campus. I am sure it would be very easy for him to say yes and it would come from an official source.

[+dguyellison]

IMHO, your problem is you're not a student.

 

Here's an idea: try to find students on campus who like to cache and get them to form a campus caching club (with faculty sponsorship and univeristy permission) like any other university club. Students would have an easier time getting the university to help them do something for thier club than a non-student.

 

I'm sure there are geography, engineering, community-regional-urban planning students on campus who would love the sport.

[+Bad_CRC]

The first cache I placed was on city property adjacent to a community college.

 

The local reviewer denied the placement because campus security had confiscated caches in that area before, even though the map clearly shows it as city, not campus property.

 

I did some research, and that college also does not allow anyone on the campus who is not a student, which really made me upset since the college has no problems taking millions of tax dollars each year from taxpayers like me. And that area is absolutely beautiful untouched forest land with some great features like caves and huge trees.

 

I was getting ready to fight the whole thing, and take it wherever I needed to, since in my view this is public property *I* am paying for, and I think the public has a right to valid use of it.

 

But I also realized that this is an area where they could have a legitimate concern of people sneaking around when students, particularly female students, could be walking alone. And in fact they did have an incident many years ago.

 

ended up deciding it wasn't worth the fight, but I'm still annoyed by it.

[+Airmapper]

I've been wanting to place a cache at Bowling Green Technical College, but one, I'm not sure who to ask, and two, I just don't really want to try and fully explain it just to get a big fat NO.

[+biosearch]

Well, I'm still working on it. I now have some contacts, I am working on something else from the security dept that might help. There are other cachers at the university that I have found through facebook (I joined to keep track of my daughter, I hate those pages, so please don't think poorly of me). Anyway, I'm going to contact some of them and see what we can do together. And Airmapper, I might know someone at BGTC. If you would like I can check and see if they still have a bit of a voice there and see if they would be willing to talk with someone. I don't know, can try if you would like. I'm not the type who give up.

 

Oh, and check out the following site. http://www.kyrec.org/ Take a look at page five of the conference schedule, top left session listed. You may be able to use this when discussing geocaching with the local authorities that you deal with. I contacted someone at the Bowling Green City today and they actually mentioned it to me, the conference was taking place in BG afterall, and that session just happened to be taking place as we were on the telephone. Something to think about. Would have loved to be in the session. More about Lisa here: http://techlines.ky.gov/2006/apr/geocaching_weekend.htm

I'm sure some of you were at that event. Inroads are being made. I think that it just takes time....

 

A lot to be said for a positive attitude...

[4wheelin_fool]

If security says no, it's only because they are worried about what their boss would say. Just go to a higher level. The higher up you go, the more people oriented and friendlier they get.

[+parker313]

Quite often, the person most likely to grant permission will be the person in charge of promoting the campus, recruiting next year's students. They can be convinced that geocaching will draw lots of folks to their campus, which will definitely benefit their cause. Once you have the OK from the Promotions Director, (or whatever they call themselves), then you can go to security to simply inform them of what you're doing and who told you it was OK.

Security gave me the name to the student activities coordinator/individual, that is my next stop. Learning process.

 

And yes, many of the caches are probably placed without permission, doesn't mean I will, even if it means far less placed caches.

 

Wish me luck with this guy...

Good luck Maybe you can pitch it as a potential activity for the students, even offer to hold a Geo 101 type class or presentation.

[+Rich the Bushwhacker]

Perhaps you should seek out a more remote location. In most National and state forests there is no permission requirement. In local recreation areas there's usually no problem either.

[+emurock]

Quite often, the person most likely to grant permission will be the person in charge of promoting the campus, recruiting next year's students. They can be convinced that geocaching will draw lots of folks to their campus, which will definitely benefit their cause. Once you have the OK from the Promotions Director, (or whatever they call themselves), then you can go to security to simply inform them of what you're doing and who told you it was OK.

Security gave me the name to the student activities coordinator/individual, that is my next stop. Learning process.

 

And yes, many of the caches are probably placed without permission, doesn't mean I will, even if it means far less placed caches.

 

Wish me luck with this guy...

Good luck, why because I think you will need it.

[+Renegade Knight]

If you want permission find who's in charge of the grounds. That may prove hard enough as it is.

The campus security did give me that name of the individual at student activities, thinking that they would be the people/person to talk to. I'm guessing that it will be the next step in the chain of "pass you off to the next person" (I had twelve years in the Army to learn how that game works and can see it coming a long way off).

 

Excellent. Experience is always a good thing for working through some situations. Strategy is half the battle.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Student Activities would probably be over all things related to events on campus....Likewise, the Student Activities person is all about things happening on campus. I am sure it would be very easy for him to say yes and it would come from an official source.

 

This is a good plan. Geocaching would fit well with students activities, it fits in with the recreatinal program most U's have and that rec program can be a co-owner of the caches. As a bonus geocaching fits well with most rec programs and activites they would be promoting.

[+eagletrek]

I'd wager over 50% of all caches on this website are placed without permission. Maybe higher.

 

It's kinda the unspoken truth of the whole activity.

 

I'd agree with your statement and it will also probably be the primary cause of the demise of geocaching in the future if it isn't stopped.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'd wager over 50% of all caches on this website are placed without permission. Maybe higher.

 

It's kinda the unspoken truth of the whole activity.

 

I'd agree with your statement and it will also probably be the primary cause of the demise of geocaching in the future if it isn't stopped.

 

I disagree entirely. Both posts seem to assume that explicit demonstrable permission is the way to go. This site uses the standard of adequate permission. That’s all that’s needed. I could spend the next 5000 words just covering the tip of the iceburg on the difference. But that’s for another thread where we can debate this in more detail.

[+michigansnorkelers]

I'd wager over 50% of all caches on this website are placed without permission. Maybe higher.

 

It's kinda the unspoken truth of the whole activity.

 

I'd agree with your statement and it will also probably be the primary cause of the demise of geocaching in the future if it isn't stopped.

 

I disagree entirely. Both posts seem to assume that explicit demonstrable permission is the way to go. This site uses the standard of adequate permission. That’s all that’s needed. I could spend the next 5000 words just covering the tip of the iceburg on the difference. But that’s for another thread where we can debate this in more detail.

 

Here is what happens when people ASSUME that permission has been granted. GCXJ38

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&Submit6=Go

 

This is just one example, but it is the most consequential.

[+trignet]

I recently placed a cache near out county airport. I started out with a plat book I have here from last year. It showed that the county owned the property in question.Not knowing who the county official might be that I might contact, I contacted the local DNR office for input as it also functions as the snowmobile trail in the winter and has for years. I was approaching it as a homeland security concern and proximity to the airport--but well outside thier fence. He recommended the local official director for homeland security, which I happened to know (he runs a wireless internet service onthe side) and he gave the name of the appropriate official to contact for operations. All had heard of Geocaching in some way or form, but hadn't checked into it. After clarifying how it works and some of the proactive practices, and they knew it was a local opportunity, I think I got 3 more people interested in participating. Officials are people just like us at the end of the day--hobbies, sports, entertainment, and they typically know other officials too, which could help get a better name for the sport out there.

[+eagletrek]

I'd wager over 50% of all caches on this website are placed without permission. Maybe higher.

 

It's kinda the unspoken truth of the whole activity.

 

I'd agree with your statement and it will also probably be the primary cause of the demise of geocaching in the future if it isn't stopped.

 

I disagree entirely. Both posts seem to assume that explicit demonstrable permission is the way to go. This site uses the standard of adequate permission. That’s all that’s needed. I could spend the next 5000 words just covering the tip of the iceburg on the difference. But that’s for another thread where we can debate this in more detail.

 

 

I don't know where you have found the "standard" of "adequate permission." Permission is permission. It usually means finding the individual who "owns" the area/location and getting permission for placing the cache. It also helps if you lay out all the details of the cache and how it will be hidden, to the area/location owner, so there is no confussion over what is being done.

 

Individuals don't need to show "explicit demonstrable permission" to me personnally but I'd like to assume that they've taken proper actions to get "legitimate" permission prior to posting the cache. I'd like to trust my fellow cachers but past experience proves that they all can't be trusted.

 

In the OP, the cacher should have addressed the issue with the "property owner" and not the caretakers/security guards since they're not usually in a position to make legally binding decisions for the area that they take care of.

 

Once again, arrogant attitudes such as Renegade Knight's will bring about the end of this great sport/activity. Just my opinion!!!

Edited November 16, 2006 by eagletrek

[+Renegade Knight]

....I don't know where you have found the "standard" of "adequate permission." Permission is permission. It usually means finding the individual who "owns" the area/location and getting permission for placing the cache. It also helps if you lay out all the details of the cache and how it will be hidden, to the area/location owner, so there is no confussion over what is being done.

 

Individuals don't need to show "explicit demonstrable permission" to me personnally but I'd like to assume that they've taken proper actions to get "legitimate" permission prior to posting the cache. I'd like to trust my fellow cachers but past experience proves that they all can't be trusted.

 

In the OP, the cacher should have addressed the issue with the "property owner" and not the caretakers/security guards since they're not usually in a position to make legally binding decisions for the area that they take care of.

 

Once again, arrogant attitudes such as Renegade Knight's will bring about the end of this great sport/activity. Just my opinion!!!

 

eagletrcek. You post like you know what permission is. Show me. For everthing you show me I can show you a problem with your assumptions. I said adequate permission is exactly what's needed and nothing more. You said permission is needed but imply that that standard is "higher". Apparently you feel that you are standing on the high ground. Show me, show me, show me. There is a bigger picture that you are not demonstrating that you understand. Show me you do.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Here is what happens when people ASSUME that permission has been granted. GCXJ38

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&Submit6=Go

 

This is just one example, but it is the most consequential.

 

The devil is in the details. Off the top of my head I think Home Depot leases their land from developers. Corporate sets policy that managers enforce. If you get permission from the manager you may not have permission from HQ. If you have it from HQ the manager may get anal anyway. In either case the land owner may have given permission, or withdraw it due to their interests in the land. Hard to say. Is the assistant manager good enough or could the employees all know about it, give their blessing and the manager found out and spouted hellfire and damnation? While you are ready to show this as an example, I don't know enough to make the final call.

[+eagletrek]

....I don't know where you have found the "standard" of "adequate permission." Permission is permission. It usually means finding the individual who "owns" the area/location and getting permission for placing the cache. It also helps if you lay out all the details of the cache and how it will be hidden, to the area/location owner, so there is no confussion over what is being done.

 

Individuals don't need to show "explicit demonstrable permission" to me personnally but I'd like to assume that they've taken proper actions to get "legitimate" permission prior to posting the cache. I'd like to trust my fellow cachers but past experience proves that they all can't be trusted.

 

In the OP, the cacher should have addressed the issue with the "property owner" and not the caretakers/security guards since they're not usually in a position to make legally binding decisions for the area that they take care of.

 

Once again, arrogant attitudes such as Renegade Knight's will bring about the end of this great sport/activity. Just my opinion!!!

 

eagletrcek. You post like you know what permission is. Show me. For everthing you show me I can show you a problem with your assumptions. I said adequate permission is exactly what's needed and nothing more. You said permission is needed but imply that that standard is "higher". Apparently you feel that you are standing on the high ground. Show me, show me, show me. There is a bigger picture that you are not demonstrating that you understand. Show me you do.

 

As I'm reading my Merriam - Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of permission is: formal consent, authorization. I believe the "formal" part of the consent may mean that the "standard" is higher than the approval of some security guard.

 

BTW, I'm not standing on any high ground, in fact I'm sitting here smiling at your comments. I'm always amazed that I volunteered 20(+) years in the military to protect the freedoms of folks like you.

 

Oh but aint that America for you and me

Aint that America were someting to see baby

Aint that America, home of the free

Little pink houses for you and me

 

v/r

 

Eagletrek

[+baloo&bd]

[+Renegade Knight]

...As I'm reading my Merriam - Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of permission is: formal consent, authorization....

 

That explains it. By the book vs. real life. No wonder we don't see eye to eye when we use the same words. Merriam Webster has it's uses, but it's not what I'd use to place a cache unless I hollwed it out first.

 

Stick to the debate instead of expressing your misplaced amazement.

[CoyoteRed]

I again express my dismay at the folks who don't understand the concept of "adequate permission."

 

It's been discussed time and time again. I really don't understand how folks are still confused by it.

[+GRANPA ALEX]

hey wait a sec biosearch, aren't you an employee of WKU??

By the way, I went into a church just down the street from my house (I mention this because I saw your profile) and asked about placing one there. I was dismissed off hand. Won't put one there. It just seems that when I ask permission, which is what one should do, it doesn't work.

 

It has been my experience that you can 'sell' the idea to managers (not in the negative sense). Tell them about the game, how it can bring business, visitors, clients, traffic, potential students, activity, etc. to their doors - everyone has a raison d'etre, use it to make the plan work for them .

 

Find out their goals, what they need or want . . . what rings their bell and make geocaching tie into that motive. When they win, you win . . .

Edited November 16, 2006 by GRANPA ALEX

[+biosearch]

Yep....