Wanted: 'Serial Muggler' in Midwest!

[+sbell111]

Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit.

I'm thinking that 'someone's friend in law enforcement' would find themselves working for Wackenhut pretty quickly.

Will Wackenhut hire cops who have been fired?

Perhaps they could sell tokens in the subway.

[+Kabuthunk]

I get what you are saying, but I think the police are going to give you the same look your coworkers do when you explain the game and then tell you to get lost. If the police were to pursue it, I believe the local DA's office will kick the case as unimportant or unwinable. If the DA were to go forward with it, I think the judge would kick it and tell everybody to stop wasting his time.

 

I might be wrong, who knows?

Quite likely they'd do nothing, but the best hope would be to go to them saying "someone has stolen hundreds of items from dozens of people, total losses getting into the thousands of dollars. These items are part of an outdoor game, and it's obvious that this person has no intention of stopping stealing these.", something along those lines.

 

Oh, and the argument someone made earlier of "have no intention of going back and getting it again, so it has now ownership to begin with" is false. It's there because I let it be there. It's still mine. If I should choose to not want it there, or say geocachers don't want to go to it, I will definitely want to go back and retrieve what is mine.

 

It's like if go to a public beach with some water floatation thingy. While sitting on the beach, I prepare to go home, but a mess of neighbourhood kids are playing on the floatation thingy. I decide to not spoil their fun, and leave it for the day and come back for it later. I fully expect it to be there when I return, because y'know... it's mine and I still want it. Because I chose to leave it for a bit because others were enjoying it doesn't mean I've all-out abandoned it and relinquished it from my ownership.

I can see some people seeing that whole issue as a bit of a grey area... but if people no longer want to play with the stuff I've left for others to enjoy, I dadgum well want it back

[+Renegade Knight]

1. This guy/gal(s) is looking for attention. This thread is satisfying that.

 

2. Nothing was stolen, not legally anyway. You abandoned ownership when you left it in the woods, unless of course you owned the woods as well. Technically, you are as guilty of littering as they are of stealing.

...Bottom line, in the end, there is nothing you can do to the individual, even if you catch them red-handed.

 

1) True.

2) It's personal property. I have the assurance of a local cacher who work as an assistant district attorney that the law is on the side of the cache owner beyond. In the past I had some of his citations handy but those are on another computer and likely in my archived emails. Regardless it's against the law to steal personal property.

 

Bottom line while it would be very hard to force the system to work, if you had time enough and money to persue it you could force the issue. If I were rich enough I'd do it for kicks. The problem though is that I'm not rich enough and that I don't have to take the time to force the system to work.

[Clan Riffster]

If this were to happen in Seminole County Fl, and the cache owner wanted to report is as a crime, it would get documented as such, assuming the complainant could meet the elements of theft. A can disappearing from the woods would not meet those elements, but a person knowing about the game, taking the cache, then leaving a letter bragging about it would.

 

Let's assume for argument sake that the case in hand did meet the necessary requirements.

 

At that point, a law enforcement officer has little choice but to take a report and submit the evidence for processing. I can assure you I would be kwickly joining the ranks of the unemployed if I told a victim their particular crime didn't rate high enough on the political barometer to warrant any effort from me. Writing this report would take about 5 minutes of my time, and would leave the victim with a positive impression of law enforcement in general. Refusing to take a report would generate well deserved contempt for both myself and my agency. Call it public relations if you must.

 

If I had no leads and no evidence, the case would be inactivated.

 

The submitted evidence would be placed in our handling facility, and would eventually be processed for latent prints. This is done on a priority basis, and might take a couple months, but it would still get done. If any prints of AFIS value were collected, they would automatically be scanned in for comparison. Statistically, the chances of obtaining a suspect from latent prints are very small. The vast majority of citizens in our country have not had their fingerprints entered into an electronic database.

 

If the evidence did not generate any leads, the case would be inactivated.

 

If the evidence generated a "hit", Tech Services would notify me, as the original responder. At that point, I would be faced with proving that the prints found on a piece of paper belonged to the person who took the cache. Without any supporting evidence, proving that would be impossible. I would eventually interview the subject and see where it went from there. Unlike our most popular TV shows, in real life, criminals usually don't confess even when faced with insurmountable evidence of their guilt.

 

If, by some miracle, the suspect did confess, I would submit the case to the State Attorney's Office for further action. Most State Attorney's have political aspirations, and will not pursue a case unless there is a high probability of a conviction. Even if I handed a water tight case to the State Attorney, (witness/evidence/elements of the crime/confession), there is no guarantee that they would prosecute the subject. If they did decide to prosecute, they would initiate a plea bargain process with the subject rather than take him to trial.

 

If the subject decides to take the case to trial, he will likely start with a suppression hearing to get the evidence and his confession thrown out. If he spends enough money on an attorney, he'll probably win the hearing. Following that, he will file a motion of dismissal asking that the case be dismissed on the grounds that collecting abandoned boxes in the woods is not theft. If the Judge agrees, he wins.

 

Following all that, the case would eventually go to a jury. At that point, 12 people who weren't bright enough to get out of jury duty would decide his fate. If he was found guilty, and had no serious criminal history, he would face probation and court costs, not jail time.

 

All this prattling has been simply to point out that getting a conviction over a "stolen" cache is highly unlikely, unless you are willing to commit many, many hours of your own time gathering data. As WadCutter rightly pointed out, I will be far too busy trying to protect citizens from dangerous felons to spend days/weeks/months sitting in the woods next to an ammo can.

 

Effort = Reward. You'll need to decide for yourself if the "reward" of prosecuting the thief is worth the "effort". Personally, I think all you'd need to do is identify the culprit to stop him.

[+TrailGators]

Following all that, the case would eventually go to a jury. At that point, 12 people who weren't bright enough to get out of jury duty would decide his fate. If he was found guilty, and had no serious criminal history, he would face probation and court costs, not jail time.

Hey, I served on a jury once! It was actually really interesting! Anyhow, if this case ever did make it to a trial, the defense would boot any juror candidate that was involved with geocaching. So the case would rely on unsympathic muggles coming up with a verdict.....

[+Kabuthunk]

And as we all well know... any non-geocacher will just think "Well, they left garbage in a forest. The "thief" was doing the community a favour cleaning it up", at which point he'd go scott free, and told to just stop leaving the envelopes when he does his work.

 

Isn't society wonderful?

Edited November 15, 2006 by Kabuthunk

[Neos2]

Where ya' been since your last Muggler thread frenzy 8 months or so, back in February? Just as in your Feburary thread, we've yet to see any proof that all these caches are missing other then a map with some push pin over lay on it.

We believe the serial muggler is possibly a short haul truck driver in the midwest, hitting numerous caches on his routes.

 

I suspect a group of college kids in Wisconsin, who for some reason, can't even take the time to respond to GeoCachers pleas to check their missing cache......missing cache.......missing cache!!!

 

Have a great day,

Truckdweller...."a short haul truck driver in the midwest"

 

Truckdweller,

 

From evidence we have gathered from others, we think we have an idea of where this person lives, and his occupation, despite for some reason you taking offense to it because your a truck driver! Take the pine cone out of your rear end, you act as if were attacking your 'profession' . It's been declared already, our team is a busy one and cannot afford the time to geocaching we'd like. So if you want to attack us because we have only 30 finds, go ahead. We've been geocaching, and around the hobby for three and a half years now.

 

This post goes to Truckdweller, since he feels his profession has been attacked and he's been insulted. [...]

Signed... A 16 credit University of Wisconsin student & current holder of two jobs in the 'workforce'

OK, I'll jump back in here, since it was my post in the Indiana forum that started off the tangent about insults.

 

teameverest, you came into these forums and said that you think the person responsible for this is a short haul truck driver because the missing caches are all along truck routes, or within 10 miles of a rest area, or deep in the woods in small towns, etc etc etc. How you made the leap to suspecting a truck driver is not clear from that information. The caches are placed in the kinds of places that caches in general can be placed---and anyone has access to them.

 

I pointed out that your logic is faulty if the only reason that you think the caches were disturbed by a short haul truck driver is because they were placed along roads. You apparently don't understand much about driving a truck for a living.

 

*Truck drivers have to make their deliveries or the company doesn't get paid. They usually aren't paid by the hour. They are paid to deliver.

 

*If they are late, there can be a fine, or an extreme delay, which costs the company and the driver money. (Some places only accept the load between x and y times, if you are late, you have to wait until the next day to offload. Other places just won't pay you as much because it is late. Often someone else is waiting at point B to pick up your load, or to take it off the truck and put it out on the floor, so it must be there on time for them to receive it).

 

*Once you start driving for the day, you only have a certain amount of time to finish driving for the day. Dispatchers know exactly how long it takes a driver to get from point A to point B and they usually schedule the driver for every minute of time they can. A typical day for a short hauler will have the driver take a load already on his truck to a dropoff spot, drop it off, drive to another place and pick up a second load, drop it off the at next place and pick up another load to bring back to deliver the next day, or for another driver to deliver.

 

*Short haulers don't usually have any spare time in their day. Typically they grab something to eat when they are filling up on gas. They eat it in the truck while they are driving or catching up their paperwork. They rarely even stop for an unscheduled restroom break because there just isn't time in the day. A simple restroom stop can cost you a half an hour of drive time by the time you figure out where to stop that has truck parking, get it off the road, find a place to park, go in the building, fire up the truck again, catch your log book up (you have to log the stop in your paperwork), and get it back on the road. So most restroom breaks are taken while the delivery is being made.

 

* Some drivers are paid by the mile. If they go so much as a mile out of route, someone wants to know why, and the explanation had better be pretty good.

 

Knowing all of that, I was dumbfounded when you said that you thought it was a truck driver because of where the caches are located. I really would love to see you try to find a way to get a big truck ten miles down some country road just to find a geocache. For starters, state law dictates how far off a major highway a big truck can go if it isn't making a delivery. Secondly, there isn't room to park something 50 to 80 foot long near most caches. Thirdly, most drivers are hauling thousands of dollars of goods, and they cannot drop the trailer at some rest area and bobtail down the country road to a cache leaving the load unsecured. Even if they dared, it's hard to find somewhere big enough to park just the tractor itself.

 

Yes, I was insulted on behalf of all the truck drivers I know, that you just assumed that a truck driver was to blame. Why did you choose "truck driver" ---why not traveling a salesperson, retired person, or any of the other people who regularly travel the roads in smaller vehicles that are easier to find parking for? Why not "college students"--after all, they have one to five days per week they don't have to attend classes, they tend to know lots of other people who live in many towns near the campus they live, and they like to pile in cars and take road trips, etc.

 

I admit that I looked at your profile, and saw that you were a college student, and thought I'd use that to make my point that wild accusations can be slung at anyone. Apparently, it hit a nerve, and both you and Team CDCB felt that while it was fine to take a poke at truck drivers, college students should be above reproach. Before you get too carried away responding to that, perhaps you ought to know that I just recently graduated myself, with 176 undergrad credit hours under my belt. Most of it in Biology and Education, with four areas of concentration (Biology, Physical Science, General Science, and Earth & Space Science) but I had a minor in Geosciences, and another in Art History, and the makings of an Associates in Geological Sciences (the university doesn't recognize that degree just yet, but they are working on it and so am I). I've taken 6 hours post grad in Geosciences and I just finished my masters in Education for another 36 hours, last December. I've already started work on the next degree. I also have a daughter who is a senior in college working on a double major in Psychology and Political Sci and a son just a year from starting college himself. I'd venture to say that we have nothing against college kids, and that we do have some idea of how much free time a college student has to go caching. I think I am also qualified to say that "all college students everywhere" weren't insulted by what I said. I know I wasn't insulted, and I am a college student.

 

Now mind you, if you had said that you suspected a particular short haul truck driver because the dates he made certain deliveries match up with the dates that certain caches came up missing, that would have been another story altogether. You did not say that, however.

 

I'm also surprised to learn that you started a similar thread about the same topic months ago. I'm not sure that I find that as suspicious as some of my caching collegues apparently do, but I would like to hear more about how you are keeping track of these caches. Do you have specific information on the dates the caches came up missing. Have you plotted that information on that map? Do you have a list with dates, so I could overlay it on a more detailed map? I have to admit that I am curious now.

 

And just out of curiousity. If you don't have time to maintain your geocaches, where will you find time to track down this cache maggot?

 

(This post proofread and approved by Neos 1, a shorthaul trucker from the midwest.)

Edited November 16, 2006 by Neos2

[+Wadcutter]

Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit.

I'm thinking that 'someone's friend in law enforcement' would find themselves working for Wackenhut pretty quickly.

Will Wackenhut hire cops who have been fired?

Perhaps they could sell tokens in the subway.

Ooooo, that's going to be tough around here. We'll have to wait until the build the subways first.

[+sbell111]

It's like if go to a public beach with some water floatation thingy. While sitting on the beach, I prepare to go home, but a mess of neighbourhood kids are playing on the floatation thingy. I decide to not spoil their fun, and leave it for the day and come back for it later. I fully expect it to be there when I return, because y'know... it's mine and I still want it. Because I chose to leave it for a bit because others were enjoying it doesn't mean I've all-out abandoned it and relinquished it from my ownership.

I think that this is where the logic breaks down. If you left without your flotation thingie, anyone would be free to take it with them or dispose of it. Most people would assume that you abandoned it either by choice or negligence.

[+Kabuthunk]

Then they assume incorrectly. Hence the problem with assumptions (and I'm sure everyone knows the cheesy saying that goes with them).

 

Same logic applies to if I forget my wallet at the diner. No, I did not abandon my drivers license, money, credit card, and whatnot else. Exact same logic. If I leave without taking it, that doesn't change it from being mine.

[+sbell111]

And as we all well know... any non-geocacher will just think "Well, they left garbage in a forest. The "thief" was doing the community a favour cleaning it up", at which point he'd go scott free, and told to just stop leaving the envelopes when he does his work.

 

Isn't society wonderful?

Also, he would only need one muggle on the jury who doesn't 'get' the game. If my wife was on the jury, there is no way he would get convicted.

 

Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit.

I'm thinking that 'someone's friend in law enforcement' would find themselves working for Wackenhut pretty quickly.

Will Wackenhut hire cops who have been fired?

Perhaps they could sell tokens in the subway.

Ooooo, that's going to be tough around here. We'll have to wait until the build the subways first.

That's the beauty of it. He'd have to move somewhere that has a subway.

[+sbell111]

Then they assume incorrectly. Hence the problem with assumptions (and I'm sure everyone knows the cheesy saying that goes with them).

 

Same logic applies to if I forget my wallet at the diner. No, I did not abandon my drivers license, money, credit card, and whatnot else. Exact same logic. If I leave without taking it, that doesn't change it from being mine.

Certainly, a wallet left in a restaurant is not the same as a flotation thingie floating in the ocean (or other large body of water).

[+sbell111]

Imagine this scenario...

 

I'm playing golf at my neighborhood course. As usual, I shank one into the trees. Rather than slow up my buddies, I simply drop a new ball.

 

However, I'm cheap and good golf balls aren't, so I decide to come back and get my ball tomorrow. If it is gone before I return, was it stolen?

[+Kabuthunk]

Yes.

 

Did the person who picked it up purchase it? No. Therefore, they are taking something that does not belong to them. They may well assume it's been abandoned, but again, the problem with assumptions, etc, etc. If you find something, there is no way of knowing if it is stolen or not.

 

Going by your logic... say someone breaks into a house, steals something, then later ditches it to avoid evidence. Someone else finds this object. It is not ownerless, and is indeed stolen.

 

Which actually brings to mind something I missed out before, which is of large importance in this thought in general:

Unless there is some form if identification, there is no way of knowing if something is stolen or abandoned. If there is identification, then it is possible to verify this instead of going with the "assumption", which one has no way of knowing if they are correct or not.

 

All geocaches should (mine will, anyway) have identification on them. Hence, one can contact the owner and see if the finder can take it or not.

 

Going back to the 'floatation device', if I were to write on it "Property of Kabuthunk - please call ######## if found.", then I would indeed consider it pure, outright theft if someone took it without calling.

 

If your golf ball had your name, phone number, and saying "please do not steal, return to me", then indeed it would be stolen.

 

 

Hence... it's the 'identification' factor that makes it not outright abandoned, since you can now verify if it is or not.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Kabuthunk

[+TrailGators]

We are drifting off topic because these caches are being stolen because that is the intent of the person that took them.

Edited November 16, 2006 by TrailGators

[+Wadcutter]

Sure can tell a lot of you have never dealt with the criminal justice system and get your extensive legal knowledge from watching TV.

[+BlueDeuce]

-->

QUOTE(R.O.B @ Nov 13 2006, 05:41 PM) 2565852[/snapback]

We had a problem like this in Fort Worth a year ago or more. The person would take everything in the cache but leave the container with a note. We handled it by depriving this person/persons of what they want --- attention. We discussed the topic amongst ourselves on a invite-only, non-gc.com forum, and anybody who did find a cache muggled by this person logged it in as a regular find. Anybody who was not aware of how widespread the problem and logged the cache as muggled was was asked to edit their post so as to show it had not been muggled.

Without the attention, it didn't last much longer.

In the end I think our love of geocaching far outweighs their love of destroying the game for us. To us it's a passion so we will go on with it no matter what. To them, since it's not a passion they will tire of it sooner or later.

 

Ayep.

[+sbell111]

Yes.

 

Did the person who picked it up purchase it? No. Therefore, they are taking something that does not belong to them. They may well assume it's been abandoned, but again, the problem with assumptions, etc, etc. If you find something, there is no way of knowing if it is stolen or not.

 

Going by your logic... say someone breaks into a house, steals something, then later ditches it to avoid evidence. Someone else finds this object. It is not ownerless, and is indeed stolen. ...

Going by your logic, we should all just leave all of our stuff wherever we feel like it. If you only use your jetski at the lake, just leave it there. I could just leve my golf clubs neft to the first tee box at my local course. Leave your baseball gloave, ball and bat at the field.

 

When I'm done working out at the gym, I'll just leve my half empty water bottle on my favorite machine. I'll finish it tomorrow.

[+sbell111]

We are drifting off topic because these caches are being stolen because that is the intent of the person that took them.

The point is not what you and I believe, but what Joe Judge and Jennie Juror would think.

[+Kabuthunk]

Yes.

 

Did the person who picked it up purchase it? No. Therefore, they are taking something that does not belong to them. They may well assume it's been abandoned, but again, the problem with assumptions, etc, etc. If you find something, there is no way of knowing if it is stolen or not.

 

Going by your logic... say someone breaks into a house, steals something, then later ditches it to avoid evidence. Someone else finds this object. It is not ownerless, and is indeed stolen. ...

Going by your logic, we should all just leave all of our stuff wherever we feel like it. If you only use your jetski at the lake, just leave it there. I could just leve my golf clubs neft to the first tee box at my local course. Leave your baseball gloave, ball and bat at the field.

 

When I'm done working out at the gym, I'll just leve my half empty water bottle on my favorite machine. I'll finish it tomorrow.

In an ideal world, that would work. However, as is seen by the initial posts in the topic, the world is not ideal. In fact, I grew up in a very small town where it was common to leave your doors unlocked, leave all kinds of stuff all over the place, and hey... if there was a general gathering at the school, it wouldn't be uncommon for lawn chairs and whatnot to be left there overnight because someone forgot them. Rest assured they'd be there the next day. Those days have since changed in the past few years in that town

*sigh* I'm still annoyed with the fact that we can't just leave the doors open on hot days any more out there

 

But... as Trailgators said... we're straying from the topic.

 

As for what to do about the geostealer... yeah... pretty much the only feasable option would be to ignore them outright. Even if you set up a camera to take a picture of them, they'd probably just get off on it. They could just claim that they were walking by, and had no intention of taking the geocache, and that they put it down seconds after the picture was taken, and that it must have been stolen shortly after. No way of verifying they're wrong... so yeah... ignore is about it.

[+BuxCamper]

Do you really think that the authorities are going to take action on this?

No, or at least I doubt they would invest a lot of time/effort into investigating it. But if you filled a complaint with the police along with a record of all the caches he allegedly muggled and with pictures of him and his car/truck, I would hope that they would at the very least go and talk to the guy. That alone might be enough to discourage the action.

 

Even if you add up an average cache value of $10 each and you break that magic felony number with the total, the authorities probably won't bother. However, it may trigger a link to another more serious investigation that has been profiled and this kind of action fits the profile. Its possible these acts of selfishness and stupidity could be the break law enforcement has been looking for. Stranger things have happened. Son of Sam was done in by a parking ticket.

 

A cacher whose in law enforcement may be the best way to look deeper into things.

[+Kabuthunk]

Interesting thought. The 'once a kleptomaniac, always a kleptomaniac' type of thing. Distinct possibility whoever's doing this steals a lot more than just geocaches.

[+TrailGators]

Interesting thought. The 'once a kleptomaniac, always a kleptomaniac' type of thing. Distinct possibility whoever's doing this steals a lot more than just geocaches.

I was thinking more like "Once a maggot....."

[+The Jester]

You don't have to have a criminal case to prosecute, if you identify him/her you can sue him/her in a civil suit. The threat of that alone may stop the maggot.

 

This still depends on identifing the maggot...

[+knoffer]

I had no idea of the dealings required to get and match a fingerprint. That is why I premised it as a stupid question.

Second stupid thought....

Fox 6 news and Vince Condella and are getting fairly active into the Geocaching sport. Perhaps Fox 6 investigates could do something??

Just a thought...

[+TrailGators]

I had no idea of the dealings required to get and match a fingerprint. That is why I premised it as a stupid question.

Second stupid thought....

Fox 6 news and Vince Condella and are getting fairly active into the Geocaching sport. Perhaps Fox 6 investigates could do something??

Just a thought...

Seems like that would give the maggot more attention......

[+MtnGoat50]

We had a problem like this in Fort Worth a year ago or more. The person would take everything in the cache but leave the container with a note. We handled it by depriving this person/persons of what they want --- attention. We discussed the topic amongst ourselves on a invite-only, non-gc.com forum, and anybody who did find a cache muggled by this person logged it in as a regular find. Anybody who was not aware of how widespread the problem and logged the cache as muggled was was asked to edit their post so as to show it had not been muggled.

Without the attention, it didn't last much longer.

In the end I think our love of geocaching far outweighs their love of destroying the game for us. To us it's a passion so we will go on with it no matter what. To them, since it's not a passion they will tire of it sooner or later.

 

Ayep.

As unsatisfying as this may seem, I think it's the best advice that's been given.

[Clan Riffster]

Sure can tell a lot of you have never dealt with the criminal justice system and get your extensive legal knowledge from watching TV.

Amen, Brother! And before y'all ask, no, we do not have a magical machine that we can drop an eyelash into, and get a match in the time it takes to play a commercial.

[+truckdweller]

This post goes to Truckdweller, since he feels his profession has been attacked and he's been insulted. It is from the 'Midwest' forum posted by Team CDCB, i think it sums it all up very well.

Where did I say anything about being insulted? Just as you posted the you "believe" the serial muggler is possibly a short haul truck driver in the midwest, I stated my "beliefs" that I suspect some college kids in Wisconsin.

 

What was it that that old wise fella' used to say, something about those who protest the loudest?

[+Team Noltex]

Sure can tell a lot of you have never dealt with the criminal justice system and get your extensive legal knowledge from watching TV.

Amen, Brother! And before y'all ask, no, we do not have a magical machine that we can drop an eyelash into, and get a match in the time it takes to play a commercial.

Glad you said it before I did. I can't be the only one that thinks this whole thread is reading like a Hardy Boys mystery. As much as we'd all like to live in a fantasy world where all criminals are brought to justice, especially the ones who affect us personally, the reality is far from it.

 

I'm a detective and currently carry a caseload of around 50 open cases. Everything from burglaries, thefts (in the actual thousands, not just a bunch of little items that might add up to a couple hundred) assaults, death threats, child pornography, identity thefts (some with over 100 victims- from one guy) check frauds and a 17 year old unsolved murder. The reality is that when a case comes across my desk that has a relatively low dollar loss and/or victim impact with little hope of being successfully investigated (meaning a specific suspect identified and enough actual evidence to convict) without a significant expenditure of time and resources, it gets closed. I would LOVE to solve every crime I find. I understand the reality that it is not possible. I am expected to make reasoned judgments to determine which cases I should spend my limited time on. Even though I've been a geocacher for several years, I would very likely not spend any time investigating this case. The several DAYS worth of time I would have to spend on it could be much better used on higher priority cases, of which there is never any shortage. You've got three cops telling you the truth. Please believe us.

 

I say all of this to put perspective on the drama that has unfolded in this thread. WAY too much drama. Which brings me to the next point. Despite the natural and sometimes overwhelming desire to do SOMETHING about these kinds of cache problems, the time proven method of successfully dealing with them is to COMPLETELY IGNORE IT AND STOP TALKING PUBLICALLY ABOUT IT!!! This has been repeatedly suggested in this thread but repeatedly ignored. In the Northwest forums, if someone starts a thread on a cache maggot/pirate/thief/whatever, it immediately receives a response instructing them to stop talking about it. Consequently, the problem usually goes away pretty quickly. I've personally seen it happen.

 

To summarize:

1. Not a priority crime. It's not likely ever going to be investigated.

2. Quit talking about it and it will stop.

[+Grumpster]

I'm surprised that the 3 cops haven't mentioned one thing that is obvious to me. Even IF you were able to obtain unquestionable air tight evidence of this clown taking a cache, it's only one cache. That's all he could be prosecuted for assuming you could get it into court to begin with. You have no way of connecting him to the other stolen caches. My bet is that all of the other cache owners haven't kept his little note. Assuming that a few of them have kept the note (the only evidence connecting the thefts) then you would have to have a hand writing expert analyze the writing to testify in court that it was written by the same person. He'd obviously have his own expert to say otherwise. His defense (assuming that he accepts that the evidence has him dead to rights) is that he simply committed a copy-cat crime. He'd most likely win on that issue and the case would come down to the one single stolen cache with airtight evidence.

 

As for the debate on rather or not he's "legally" stealing the cache. If a "reasonable" person, unaware of the game were to find a container in the woods, they would have no reason to think it other than abandoned. (Most of the caches I've done did not have the paper in it explaining the purpose of the container.) However, if a person who was well aware of the game were to take the container, then they are full aware of it's purpose, it's listing on the site, the game guidelines etc, and would be knowingly taking something that they knew was owned by someone and placed there for a purpose and that the owner would be likely to return to the cache for normal maintenance etc.

 

In a nutshell, if you have reason to believe that something has been abandoned and would not likely be retrieved by the owner, AND had no reasonable means of returning it to the owner (that kills the wallet argument) then it's not theft. If you know with reasonable certainty that the owner placed it there intentionally and would be likely to return to it, then it is theft.

 

As a cross-country truck driver with well over 2 million miles under my belt and over 25 years in the business I can testify to this much. I have taken a look at a number of the caches on the map near the beginning of this thread, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that a truck could not be parked any where near many of these areas. Remember that I'd have to walk from where I park. That seriously limits how far I can go. I can also tell you that the reason that my find number is as low as it is, is simply because I just don't have the time to cache, and I have MUCH more time than a local or regional driver does. Between shippers thinking that I have all day to sit in their dadgum docks and still drive 700 miles, the fact that I've got a log book and all it's federal regulations to deal with, never mind the need to get my day's drive over as fast as I can in hopes of finding a parking space that is nearly impossible within a few hours of sunset in that part of the country, I don't have time to cache. Why do trucks park on exit ramps? NO PLACE TO PARK A 70-FOOT TRUCK! = no place to go to the bathroom, eat, shower or anything else. I'd rather find a proper parking space than find some dadgum cache.

 

 

As for Neos2 being insulted. If the accusation were that a black man must be behind it with no logical reason given, then I'd think that most black people would be offended. Same goes true if the accusation was loged against a motorcycle with no substantiated reason. To justify the statement that a truck driver must be responsible by saying that many of the stolen caches occurred near highways is OBSURD! THAT'S THERE MOST OF THE TRAFFIC AND PEOPLE ARE!

 

To say that this is a person with time on his hands, obvious. To say that this person drives a vehicle that is capable of getting off the major roads and parking in small spaces, just as obvious if you take the time to think about it. Now, how in the heck could that possibly be a truck?

 

I'm sure I'll get flamed for the last couple of paragraphs, but I'm only stating the obvious. I'll most likely get flamed for what I'm about to say as well, but again, it's how I see it.

 

After well over 100 thefts I don't see him getting bored with it. This is the thrill he gets out of it. Just like some of you get a thrill out of finding over 1000 caches and don't get bored with it. He isn't going to go away any time soon.

 

Basically, he'll continue until he gets caught. If he's still able to remain anonymous, (the person that caught him don't know who he is,) he'll continue again after a short break. Eventually, either he'll get caught enough times that he'll get scared that eventually some one will know who he is, or more likely, the wrong person will catch him and beat the living crap out of him. I'm not condoning or suggesting this action. Only saying what is likely to happen eventually. He can't do this forever without getting caught. All he has to do is get caught by the wrong person. Sad thing is that the person that catches him and beats the crap out of him will most likely be the one in trouble with the law instead of this slimeball.

 

I'd like to think that this will go away, but I simply don't believe it will. Your thrill in geocaching is to find the cache and log it. His thrill in geocaching is to muggle it and leave a note. That's his "log" He's playing "his" game "his" way. He'll no more tire of geocaching that any of you will. This isn't a person that's done this a dozen times or so and tired of it. This is a person who truly enjoys what he's doing a great deal as is evidenced by his numbers.

 

*soap box mode off*

[+Wadcutter]

Stranger things have happened. Son of Sam was done in by a parking ticket.

A cacher whose in law enforcement may be the best way to look deeper into things.

Son of Sam wasn't caught because the NYPD was running down parking ticket scawflaws and they stumbled onto a murderer. They were looking for Son of Sam and checking parking tickets was a lead. It's a common tactic. You have reversed the scenario to make it fit what you want but in doing so you invalidate your theory. Sorry, wrong situation, you'll have to try another.

 

I'm a detective and currently carry a caseload of around 50 open cases. Everything from burglaries, thefts (in the actual thousands, not just a bunch of little items that might add up to a couple hundred) assaults, death threats, child pornography, identity thefts (some with over 100 victims- from one guy) check frauds and a 17 year old unsolved murder.

You should pay attention to all the crime fighting experts on this forum. They've watched every episode of NYPD Blues, CSI, Andy Griffith, Law and Order, and Walker, Texas Ranger. Solving cases is simple. If you start investigating all the stolen caches in your area you'll have solved your 50 other cases. Afterall, someone who takes a cache is also burglarizing homes, stealing little old ladies' purses, hanging outside bars and beating up drunks, calling ex-wives and ex-husbands threatening to kill them, everyone knows cache theives are producing all the child porn, they're the ones passing bad checks all over town, and you know that John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, and Son of Sam started their life of crime by first stealing caches which led them to serial killing. So tell your boss you are putting your other 50 cases in the inactive status. You have cache thieves to catch and which is going to lead you to solve your 17 yr old murder. It's so obvious. Just one thing tho. After you tell your boss that, come back to this forum and let us know what he says. Fill us in on what your department psychiatrist has to say. Also let us know how you like working midnights in uniform again.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Wadcutter

[CoyoteRed]

Holy Walking Caches, Caped Avenger! This thread is still going?

 

I think it pretty clear the authorities will probably not do anything about it. At least 3 LEO have stepped up and said as much. Additionally, you might not want this investigated unless each and every missing cache has clear and explicit permission--you might guess where that could lead. That's not to mention the breadth of heists would mean it is multi jurisdictional at the minimum, if not state or federal--and now you're really getting into fantasy land.

 

No, the only way to deal with this is out the person doing it and that would only work if the person is a member of community and cares whether they are outed, .

 

Finding this person is going to pretty much be shear luck. Geocaching is a hobby that exists at the whim of folks' good intentions and the only security is obscurity. (Thus the reason I don't particularly care for advertising the hobby or attempting to take it mainstream.)

 

If there is a person out there with a grudge and a modicum of intelligence you'll never find out who it is except by accident. Think about it, the number of caches one would have to man and the number of hours involved is completely out of the question. Secondly, how long would it take to grab a cache and stuff in a pack while throwing down an envelope? 15 seconds on the outside? Even if you stumbled onto the person just before or just after the event he will have a plausible story. You gonna check every cacher's pack that you meet?

 

Your best hope would be him being really dumb or a braggart. After a year and a half, that doesn't appear likely.

 

Sad to say, it may just be something you'll have to live with until he goes away.

[+sbell111]

... Also let us know how you like working midnights in uniform again.

It beats the subway...

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Hide a few of these micros!

 

You will wipe out a few innocent cachers, but eventually you might get your man!

 

Seriously, y'all gotta know that all this hoopla is exactly what will keep this guy inspired.

 

Ed

[Team CDCB]

I reality what I would like to see is for some cachers in WI to catch the guy in the act, photograph him and his car/truck, and then pass the info to the police. Have the police visit the guy and tell him to knock if off or more serious stuff will happen. That would hopefully stop it. If it doesn't, then I would like to see more serious stuff happen.

If one of my cops or agents thought they had the time to do that then I would have been finding something for them to do. We don't pay visits and make idle threats.

That's too bad. I understand that you where often busy, but it's too bad that if someone presented you with all the evidence and asked the police to intervene that that person would be turned down. It means stuff like this can continue to happen and it makes people want to take the law into their own hands because they can't get satisfaction from the legitimate authorities. (Note: This is not a slam on you, just a depressing thought on the reality of the situation.)

Tell you what you do. Next time you find a cache missing why don't you call the local police and report it. Obviously the cache didn't run off on its own so therefore someone took it. See what kind of response you get.

Obviously I wouldn't do this for a number of reasons:

 

1st: I won't know if I just couldn't find it, or if it was really gone.

2nd: I won't know if it disappeared from natural causes or human intervention.

3rd: I won't know if it was "innocently" muggled, or deliberately stolen.

4th: I won't know if this was just a isolated incident or part of a much larger problem without further evidence.

5th: I won't expect the police to spend time investigating a relatively minor issue.

 

Finding one missing cache is far different that 120+ caches being stolen by a individual or group.

[Team CDCB]

Yes, I was insulted on behalf of all the truck drivers I know, that you just assumed that a truck driver was to blame. Why did you choose "truck driver" ---why not traveling a salesperson, retired person, or any of the other people who regularly travel the roads in smaller vehicles that are easier to find parking for? Why not "college students"--after all, they have one to five days per week they don't have to attend classes, they tend to know lots of other people who live in many towns near the campus they live, and they like to pile in cars and take road trips, etc.

Neos2... all your arguements are VERY sound and make a VERY conviencing arguement that the culprit likely is NOT a truck driver. However, the those of us who are not well versed in the world of Truck Driving may not have understood the points that you are bringing up. It isn't insulting to truck drivers to (perhaps wrongly) suspect that someone who is doing something bad might have a specific job.

I admit that I looked at your profile, and saw that you were a college student, and thought I'd use that to make my point that wild accusations can be slung at anyone. Apparently, it hit a nerve, and both you and Team CDCB felt that while it was fine to take a poke at truck drivers, college students should be above reproach.

Oh, I certainly don't think that college students are above reproach... I was one once and I work with too many now to know better!

 

But I want to get something you said in the first part of that quote: "...it was fine to take a poke at truck drivers" Suspecting that the culprit might be a truck driver is NOT taking a poke at truck drivers.

Now mind you, if you had said that you suspected a particular short haul truck driver because the dates he made certain deliveries match up with the dates that certain caches came up missing, that would have been another story altogether. You did not say that, however.

No, but similar evidence was presented... ie, the routes looked like they might coorespond with what a Truck Driver might take. In hindsight, given you evidence, it seems much less likely that it was a truck driver, but both the OP, and myself, in our ignorance of the truck driving world, made the assumption that it might have been a driver. You might laugh at our ignorance and better yet (which you did) educate us with what's really going on. But no insult was intended, and I'm a little suprised that you would get insulted.

[+Wadcutter]

That's too bad. I understand that you where often busy, but it's too bad that if someone presented you with all the evidence and asked the police to intervene that that person would be turned down. It means stuff like this can continue to happen and it makes people want to take the law into their own hands because they can't get satisfaction from the legitimate authorities. (Note: This is not a slam on you, just a depressing thought on the reality of the situation.)

Do you want to pay more taxes to hire and equip more police? Or would you rather the police work on catching the burglar who cased your neighborhood last night planning to break into your home as soon as you leave? Or the thief who is going to break into your car as soon as you park it? Or catch the drunk driver who is going to cross the center line and hit you head on when you drive home from work tonight?

[+baloo&bd]

[No, but similar evidence was presented... ie, the routes looked like they might coorespond with what a Truck Driver might take. In hindsight, given you evidence, it seems much less likely that it was a truck driver, but both the OP, and myself, in our ignorance of the truck driving world, made the assumption that it might have been a driver. You might laugh at our ignorance and better yet (which you did) educate us with what's really going on. But no insult was intended, and I'm a little suprised that you would get insulted.

 

Don't be surprised, he wasn't the only one insulted. The "evidence" pointed to a delivery person, a limo driver, a college student, a housewife, a police officer, a landscaper, a salesman, etc. Many more likely than a short haul or LTL driver however none of them were mentioned. Knowledge, or lack thereof, of the given profession did not factor in.

[Team CDCB]

Do you want to pay more taxes to hire and equip more police?

Possibly. It's one of the few areas that I would be willing to pay a bit more in taxes. I'd mostly be worried about misuse of those funds though.

 

Listen, I understand your arguement and agree with it. I'm just lamenting the situation, not complaining per se.

[+Wadcutter]

Do you want to pay more taxes to hire and equip more police?

Possibly. It's one of the few areas that I would be willing to pay a bit more in taxes. I'd mostly be worried about misuse of those funds though.

 

Listen, I understand your arguement and agree with it. I'm just lamenting the situation, not complaining per se.

I understand.

But if I had more people and more resources I wouldn't have expended 1 minute on finding missing caches. Those additional people and resources would have gone to clearing up the backlog of burglaries, armed robberies, unsolved murders, the people moving hundreds of kilos of coke a week, cleaning up the meth heads and their labs, getting the drunks off the road, etc, etc. In addition to all this we're still looking for Osama's little helpers and the havoc they're planning. Once all that is cleared up and the agents and cops don't have any more crimes to solve and stop I'm sure there might be time to spend looking for a used, rusty ammo can or a 35mm film can.

[+sbell111]

Note to self:

 

Cities that are too dangerous to move to:

 

Tacoma, WA

Springfield, IL

[+BuxCamper]

I stand by my parking ticket link. When the NYPD looked at parking tickets it gave them a lead, others followed and eventually the whole picture. Did the ticket solve crimes, directly no. But it started a chain of events the details of which - I admit - I forget.

 

A license plate, maybe a picture and description of what's been happening may jog some investigator's memory leading him/her to take a closer look at the in-duh-vidual. Getting caught muggling doesn't solve something else but starts things rolling.

[+Wadcutter]

I stand by my parking ticket link. When the NYPD looked at parking tickets it gave them a lead, others followed and eventually the whole picture. Did the ticket solve crimes, directly no. But it started a chain of events the details of which - I admit - I forget.

 

A license plate, maybe a picture and description of what's been happening may jog some investigator's memory leading him/her to take a closer look at the in-duh-vidual. Getting caught muggling doesn't solve something else but starts things rolling.

They weren't looking at parking tickets for the purpose of looking at parking ticket scawflaws and then low and behold someone finds Berkowitz while trying to collect an old parking fine. They were looking at them for leads in a murder case. Wherever there was a shooting they checked parking tickets to develop leads. That is a very common investigative technique. We also check the computer to see who might have been stopped at given locations and times. I've even done cell phone pings when I was trying to see if a suspect was in a given place.

So maybe the muggler is the next John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy. Chances are extremely remote. Maybe the next time you roll a stop sign or get caught 5 MPH over the speed limit the police ought to fingerprint you. Never can tell when or where you might be involved in the next major crime spree. See how ridiculous this can get. Muggling a cache is far from the crime of the century and it sure doesn't give any indication at all the person is involved in any other crimes. Maybe we should just put bugs on everyone's phone lines too. Never can tell when you or anyone else might talk something of a criminal nature.

Those WI cops need to stop looking for a missing rusty ammo can and start searching for the body we are pretty sure is buried up there someplace. She's been missing for about 10 yrs. We know the husband made the trip up there, have him being stopped for speeding, but we don't know where he hid her body. Maybe he put her in an ammo can. Sure would be nice to clear that one up.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Wadcutter

[+sbell111]

There are two many serial killers who cache. That's why I prefer to cache alone.

[+TrailGators]

There are two many serial killers who cache. That's why I prefer to cache alone.

[+sbell111]

There are two many serial killers who cache. That's why I prefer to cache alone.

Sure, go ahead and plan a caching day with another cacher. Soon, you'll both be in the woods and he'll be gnawing on your ribs. No thank you, sir.

[+Sioneva]

There are two many serial killers who cache. That's why I prefer to cache alone.

Sure, go ahead and plan a caching day with another cacher. Soon, you'll both be in the woods and he'll be gnawing on your ribs. No thank you, sir.

 

"Why'd you bring an axe?" "Um... that's standard caching gear. C'mon, let's go already!"

[+TrailGators]

There are two many serial killers who cache. That's why I prefer to cache alone.

Sure, go ahead and plan a caching day with another cacher. Soon, you'll both be in the woods and he'll be gnawing on your ribs. No thank you, sir.

I carry a hiking stick with a sharp tip. I got it for rattlesnakes, but it should also work for nutbags too!

[+sbell111]

What if TrailGators is a nutbag? He might spear some cacher and make cacher kabobs.