Wanted: 'Serial Muggler' in Midwest!

[+TrailGators]

What are they going to do even if they do catch the guy? I'm sure that the police are far too busy to worry about something like this (unless you can find one that is an avid geocacher).

 

It's too bad you can't bring back virtuals in that area. That would drive that guy/gal nuts!

[Clan Riffster]

I think the idea was that it is bad advice to necessarily wait to 'ambush' the thief.

I'm trying to look at this from a law enforcement officer's perspective. As a cop, I can tell you, if you came to me to report a stolen cache, I would ask you if you wanted a report, and if so, did you have any evidence. If you hand me a grainy photograph from a game camera, taken of "some guy near the cache", I can assure you the case will not be resolved. Unlike the TV show "CSI", real cops typically don't have the ability to obtain personal data from a snapshot. However, if you gave me a physical description, a close up digital photograph, a vehicle license plate number, and a sworn statement detailing the fact that you watched him follow a GPS receiver to your cache, take your cache, and leave a letter bragging about his exploits, the case would be resolved. The best way to gather this information is for one person to discretely stake out the cache, approach the maggot, take his picture, then follow him to his vehicle to get his tag number. No need to get physical, or even speak a single word to the guy.

 

get a group of people together if you're going to confront a guy in the woods, and even that is potentially dangerous.

Life has risks. Quite often those risks increase with the value of the activity you are taking. This maggot has deliberately decided to target you as a victim. Remaining a victim is a matter of choice. You can stop this if you want, or you can look for sympathy for being victimized by this clown. Again, the choice is yours. If you hide a whole herd of cachers in the woods, you're gonna tip your hand, and the maggot will not act. Gathering Intel is always best done solo. Keep your cell phone handy. If it looks like the maggot is going to escalate your meeting into a physical confrontation, dial 911 and start reciting details. The maggot will most likely beat feet out of there. His only hope of continuing his activities is by remaining anonymous. Take his anonymity away and you take away his power.

[+Kabuthunk]

That is quite possibly the best advice on a situation like this I've ever heard.

 

I especially like the 'dial 911' idea. Attempting to put myself in the thief's perspective... someone takes a picture of me. Profanities ensue, followed by the person who took the picture pulling out a phone. Calling 911? Crap... cops will be here like... instantly. Major highway nearby and such (assuming you'd be staking out one near the major highways this person seem to hit). Only options? One would involve trying to take the camera before the police arrive. If the person who took the picture is something more than a scrawny twig, it's unlikely he'd take that option (unless he's some uber-muscle bouncer type or something). Other option is to run like hell. You follow him, snap a picture of the vehicle if you can, or at least take down the plate number.

 

So yeah... that's the scenario that unfolded in my head. Sounds good to me. Just make sure the person doing the staking-out is fairly strong, just to make the thief think twice about taking a swing.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Kabuthunk

[+emurock]

I think the idea was that it is bad advice to necessarily wait to 'ambush' the thief.

I'm trying to look at this from a law enforcement officer's perspective. As a cop, I can tell you, if you came to me to report a stolen cache, I would ask you if you wanted a report, and if so, did you have any evidence. If you hand me a grainy photograph from a game camera, taken of "some guy near the cache", I can assure you the case will not be resolved. Unlike the TV show "CSI", real cops typically don't have the ability to obtain personal data from a snapshot. However, if you gave me a physical description, a close up digital photograph, a vehicle license plate number, and a sworn statement detailing the fact that you watched him follow a GPS receiver to your cache, take your cache, and leave a letter bragging about his exploits, the case would be resolved. The best way to gather this information is for one person to discretely stake out the cache, approach the maggot, take his picture, then follow him to his vehicle to get his tag number. No need to get physical, or even speak a single word to the guy.

 

get a group of people together if you're going to confront a guy in the woods, and even that is potentially dangerous.

Life has risks. Quite often those risks increase with the value of the activity you are taking. This maggot has deliberately decided to target you as a victim. Remaining a victim is a matter of choice. You can stop this if you want, or you can look for sympathy for being victimized by this clown. Again, the choice is yours. If you hide a whole herd of cachers in the woods, you're gonna tip your hand, and the maggot will not act. Gathering Intel is always best done solo. Keep your cell phone handy. If it looks like the maggot is going to escalate your meeting into a physical confrontation, dial 911 and start reciting details. The maggot will most likely beat feet out of there. His only hope of continuing his activities is by remaining anonymous. Take his anonymity away and you take away his power.

I like Clan Riffster idea, I think it is great. I also think it is the best advice yet on this thread.

Edited November 13, 2006 by emurock

[+Renegade Knight]

... I like Clan Riffster idea, I think it is great. I also think it is the best advice yet on this thread.

 

He has given 10 times the advice that I got when I went to the law. The hard part is that it takes time, dedication, perserverence and failing all that money for equipment that you can use. If you can't spend the money or dedicate the time finding someone who doesn't want to be found is difficult.

[+R.O.B]

We had a problem like this in Fort Worth a year ago or more. The person would take everything in the cache but leave the container with a note. We handled it by depriving this person/persons of what they want --- attention. We discussed the topic amongst ourselves on a invite-only, non-gc.com forum, and anybody who did find a cache muggled by this person logged it in as a regular find. Anybody who was not aware of how widespread the problem and logged the cache as muggled was was asked to edit their post so as to show it had not been muggled.

Without the attention, it didn't last much longer.

In the end I think our love of geocaching far outweighs their love of destroying the game for us. To us it's a passion so we will go on with it no matter what. To them, since it's not a passion they will tire of it sooner or later.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Two possible motivations:

A) Attention

Thrill

I've already ruled out greed, because there's nothing in a cache to arouse that one. Muggling for the thrill is unlikely but not impossible. If this fool gets a thrill from stealing something he could never get caught at, then he's got to be the biggest wuss on the planet. R.O.B is probably right. He wants attention. Let's close this thread, please.

[+TrailGators]

I think the idea was that it is bad advice to necessarily wait to 'ambush' the thief.

I'm trying to look at this from a law enforcement officer's perspective. As a cop, I can tell you, if you came to me to report a stolen cache, I would ask you if you wanted a report, and if so, did you have any evidence. If you hand me a grainy photograph from a game camera, taken of "some guy near the cache", I can assure you the case will not be resolved. Unlike the TV show "CSI", real cops typically don't have the ability to obtain personal data from a snapshot. However, if you gave me a physical description, a close up digital photograph, a vehicle license plate number, and a sworn statement detailing the fact that you watched him follow a GPS receiver to your cache, take your cache, and leave a letter bragging about his exploits, the case would be resolved. The best way to gather this information is for one person to discretely stake out the cache, approach the maggot, take his picture, then follow him to his vehicle to get his tag number. No need to get physical, or even speak a single word to the guy.

 

get a group of people together if you're going to confront a guy in the woods, and even that is potentially dangerous.

Life has risks. Quite often those risks increase with the value of the activity you are taking. This maggot has deliberately decided to target you as a victim. Remaining a victim is a matter of choice. You can stop this if you want, or you can look for sympathy for being victimized by this clown. Again, the choice is yours. If you hide a whole herd of cachers in the woods, you're gonna tip your hand, and the maggot will not act. Gathering Intel is always best done solo. Keep your cell phone handy. If it looks like the maggot is going to escalate your meeting into a physical confrontation, dial 911 and start reciting details. The maggot will most likely beat feet out of there. His only hope of continuing his activities is by remaining anonymous. Take his anonymity away and you take away his power.

 

Great advice! You hit the nail on the head when you called this guy a maggot! Not to make light of the situation, but what is the penalty for getting caught leaving the woods with tupperware?

[Clan Riffster]

Not to make light of the situation, but what is the penalty for getting caught leaving the woods with Tupperware?

That would depend on how a particular states theft statutes are written, and how they've been interpreted by the State Attorney's Office and the seated Judges. Case law beats written statute every time. I've discussed this as a hypothetical scenario with one of our SAO's, and they told me it would hinge on intent. A regular muggle taking a cache would not be prosecuted because the State would be unable to prove he intended to deprive any owner of a right to the cache or a benefit derived from the cache. The defense would be he/she found a box left in the woods.

 

In the case of Mr Maggot, the State would be able to prove his intent due to the fact that he/she used a website to obtain coordinates, loaded said coordinates into a GPSr, used the GPSr to find the cache, removed the cache, and left a note bragging about it.

[+sbell111]

Not to make light of the situation, but what is the penalty for getting caught leaving the woods with Tupperware?

That would depend on how a particular states theft statutes are written, and how they've been interpreted by the State Attorney's Office and the seated Judges. Case law beats written statute every time. I've discussed this as a hypothetical scenario with one of our SAO's, and they told me it would hinge on intent. A regular muggle taking a cache would not be prosecuted because the State would be unable to prove he intended to deprive any owner of a right to the cache or a benefit derived from the cache. The defense would be he/she found a box left in the woods.

 

In the case of Mr Maggot, the State would be able to prove his intent due to the fact that he/she used a website to obtain coordinates, loaded said coordinates into a GPSr, used the GPSr to find the cache, removed the cache, and left a note bragging about it.

I don't think you actually answered TrailGators' question. He didn't ask whether a cache maggot could be charged or convicted of a crime. He inquired about what the penalty would be.

 

Since you live in Florida, I looked up the Florida statute to answer this question.

 

'Thefts that involve less than $300 worth of money, goods or services are classified as “petit thefts” and are generally charged as misdemeanors.

 

Petit theft is defined in the law as the either the actual taking or the attempt to take another person’s property so as to deny them the use of the property or any benefit (such as the ability to sell or possess an item) that would flow from being in possession of the property. Petit thefts are further categorized in Florida law according to the monetary value of the property. Generally, petit thefts involving money, goods, or services that are valued at $100 or less are classified as second degree misdemeanors, punishable by a fine of up to $500 and up to sixty days in jail. In addition, if the property is not recovered, restitution for the item or items taken may also be part of the sentence. For items that are valued at more than $100, but less than $300, a charge of petit theft can be treated as a first degree misdemeanor. This more serious misdemeanor charge carries a maximum fine of $1000 and up to one year in the county jail.

 

As with other types of misdemeanor thefts involving money, property or services valued at less than $100, a repeat offense will allow the prosecutor to file the charge as a first degree misdemeanor. In other words, a petit theft that would normally be treated as a second degree misdemeanor may be enhanced to a first degree misdemeanor when the person accused of the theft has a prior petit theft conviction on their record.'

 

So, to answer TrailGators' question, if the state were able to convince a jury that the individual was stealing (basically convincing them all that the cache was 'owned'), the individual could receive a fine of up to $100 and up to sixty days in jail. If they were also able to prove that he stole multiple caches, he could receive a maximum fine of $1000 and up to one year in the county jail. All of this is ferociously unlikely, in my opinion.

[+ArtieD]

So, to answer TrailGators' question, if the state were able to convince a jury that the individual was stealing (basically convincing them all that the cache was 'owned'), the individual could receive a fine of up to $100 and up to sixty days in jail. If they were also able to prove that he stole multiple caches, he could receive a maximum fine of $1000 and up to one year in the county jail. All of this is ferociously unlikely, in my opinion.

 

Especially true considering that swag in caches and even TBs and geocoins are left by the person placing it, hoping it will travel or be taken. I feel it would be hard to convince a judge or jury that a particular person "stole" a geocoin or other swag when you expressly left it out in the wild to be found.

[+Wadcutter]

It's not likely any case would ever be prosecuted. What was taken? Could anyone list the items in the cache? Who knows what's in any cache after a few visitors. What about a micro film can? What's the value? Basically none. What we have is a container, basically abandoned in an area where anyone could find it, containing items that others have pretty much disposed of or given away. The container, say in the case of an ammo can, would most likely have more value than the entire contents, and even the cans can be bought for $2-5 so not a high value. While it may still be "your" property, courts would look at it as abandoned with the intent of others finding it. Their position would be if you didn't want it taken then you should have not left it unattended. With all the other crimes and cases plugging up the court system, courts and prosecutors are not going to waste their time prosecuting the theft of an ammo can used in a game.

If anyone would have come to my HQ wishing to file a theft report we would have just filled out a field report and filed it. No way we would ever get a state's attorney to take a case involving such minimal value. Just a fact of life.

If you want to recoup your loss then contact your insurance company and try to file a claim on your home owners. See what their opinion is. Don't expect much response from them either.

[Team CDCB]

Especially true considering that swag in caches and even TBs and geocoins are left by the person placing it, hoping it will travel or be taken. I feel it would be hard to convince a judge or jury that a particular person "stole" a geocoin or other swag when you expressly left it out in the wild to be found.

True, but finding is the not the same as taking.

 

First of all is the matter of the container. The container obviously was never ment to be taken. Then the items in the cache were offered with certain restrictions:

 

1. Trade items - These aren't 'free' for the taking, even if they are left out in the woods. Just because a personal item is left in a public place, even an highly accessible public place, does not mean they are free for taking. Let's say you walk by a convertable car with the top down and spy a CD sitting on the seat. It's parked on the street... a very public place. It is easily accessible... more so than many geocaches. Does that make it okay to take?

 

2. Coins/Bugs - These items are usually labeled as to their purpose. By taking the item I think it could be argued that you are agreeing to a contract with the owner... ESPECIALLY if you know what's going down ahead of time.

 

All in all, most caches aren't worth that much monetarily. Maybe $5-$10 buck depending on the container and the level of the contents. Let's just low ball it and put an average figure of $3 per cache. This guy stole well over 100 caches from multiple state, but the clear majority is Wisconsin. So, let's say 100 caches from teh cheese state. Multiple by $3, that's $300 is stolen items. I would suspect that's more than just a slap on the wrist in most states.

 

Granted, it would be hard to get this done, a bit of investigation, a bit of luck to actually catch the guy in the act, but if you could turn all this over law enforcement, I think it's highly probable that the guy would get convicted and would find himself with a hefty fee, and a very big black mark on his record. He very well might find himself with a felony conviction and even some jail time depending on what the rules are in Wisconson.

 

Yes, it might be unlikely... but if I were this guy I might start looking for my shoulder a lot more... I certainly won't risk jail time and a felony conviction just for the juvinile thrill of stealing caches.

[+sbell111]

...Granted, it would be hard to get this done, a bit of investigation, a bit of luck to actually catch the guy in the act, but if you could turn all this over law enforcement, I think it's highly probable that the guy would get convicted and would find himself with a hefty fee, and a very big black mark on his record. He very well might find himself with a felony conviction and even some jail time depending on what the rules are in Wisconson.

A few thoughts:

 

First, I seriously doubt that this would ever be prosecuted for the reasons given by wadcutter.

 

Second, if it were prosecuted, it would be difficult to get a conviction.

 

Third, if a conviction were obtained, it would be a misdemeanor, not a felony. In Wisconsin, the value of the stolen items must be over $2500 for it to be a felony.

Edited November 14, 2006 by sbell111

[+SG-MIN]

 

Third, if a conviction were obtained, it would be a misdemeanor, not a felony. In Wisconsin, the value of the stolen items must be over $2500 for it to be a felony.

That means in WI, a person could steal my car and my wife's car and it still be considered a misdemeaner!!

[+ArtieD]

1. Trade items - These aren't 'free' for the taking, even if they are left out in the woods. Just because a personal item is left in a public place, even an highly accessible public place, does not mean they are free for taking. Let's say you walk by a convertable car with the top down and spy a CD sitting on the seat. It's parked on the street... a very public place. It is easily accessible... more so than many geocaches. Does that make it okay to take?

 

2. Coins/Bugs - These items are usually labeled as to their purpose. By taking the item I think it could be argued that you are agreeing to a contract with the owner... ESPECIALLY if you know what's going down ahead of time.

 

You convertible car analogy is is a bit off.

 

In your case, that CD in the car is still the property of the car's owner because they have every intention of returning back to the car, driving off in it and listening to that CD.

 

In the case of a TB or geocoin, you place it out there with no real intention of returning back to the point of placement to retrieve it.

 

Apples and oranges in this case.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Arthur & Trillian

[+knoffer]

Stupid question here. Since this person or persons is leaving envelopes with a note, why not have the notes/envelopes fingerprinted and run a check on them??

[+sbell111]

Stupid question here. Since this person or persons is leaving envelopes with a note, why not have the notes/envelopes fingerprinted and run a check on them??

How would you suggest they do that?

[+Wadcutter]

All in all, most caches aren't worth that much monetarily. Maybe $5-$10 buck depending on the container and the level of the contents. Let's just low ball it and put an average figure of $3 per cache. This guy stole well over 100 caches from multiple state, but the clear majority is Wisconsin. So, let's say 100 caches from teh cheese state. Multiple by $3, that's $300 is stolen items. I would suspect that's more than just a slap on the wrist in most states.

A few problems with your hypothesis.

1) To report a theft you need to identfy what was stolen. What specifically was in the cache container that was taken. No guesses, has to be a specific item. How can you identify the item? After a few visits who knows what's in any cache?

2) Are the items in the cache actually yours? If you don't know what they are and the items are free to whoever finds the cache, then they really aren't your items. Therefore, you have no standing in the case nor claim as being the victim. What was taken wasn't yours.

3) What was the value of the item taken? There is no value to a McToy. MickeyD gives them away. Therefore they technically have no value. What's the value of the pencil? Nil. The items placed in the container are placed by people who do not expect to get those items back. In otherwords, they relinquish ownership of those items therefore they have no claim to them any more.

4) So let's assume that these 100 caches were all ammo cans and the actual value paid for each can was $3. This miscreant takes 100 of these cans. What has happened is not 1 count of theft of $300 but 100 counts of theft of $3. No prosecutor, even in the smallest, least active jurisdiction in the USA, is going to take a theft case of $3 for property left abandoned.

5) Let's again take your 100 caches that were taken. If you look on the map these were taken in 4 different states. Each state has it's own laws pertaining to theft. MN cannot prosecute for items taken in WI, IL, and IA. A quick count in MN appears to be 11 caches hit. Using the $3 value of the can that's a major crime spree of $33 total. In IL it looks like maybe 9 caches for a grand total value of missing cans of $27. Don't expect the IL Attorney General to appoint a special prosecutor for $27 of abandoned ammo cans.

6) Additional info on the prosecution. Using IL as an example, those 9 missing caches appear to be in 7 different counties. Each county is responsible for prosecution of crimes occurring within their county. It wouldn't matter if all 100 thefts occurred in each of IL's counties, they aren't lumped together and prosecuted but only those crimes committed in each county is prosecuted. In addition, it appears at least one of the missing caches was in Cook Co. No way on God's Green Earth is the State's Attorney in Cook Co going to entertain prosecution of a $3 ammo can that was left in the woods. He'd boot me out of his office so fast and I'd never get back in the door even if I later brought him a case involving the worst mass murder in written history.

 

Stupid question here. Since this person or persons is leaving envelopes with a note, why not have the notes/envelopes fingerprinted and run a check on them??

Real life isn't TV and this is real life. Here's what you are suggesting. The items will have to be processed and any prints lifted. That's not a procedure that takes 5 minutes minus commercials. Then the prints will have to be classed and entered into AFIS. AFIS will only check suspect prints against those that are in the system. So if this miscreant has never been printed for any reason there will nothing in AFIS to compare the suspect prints against. But here's the reality. AFIS is so backlogged that to get major cases prints run (read that murder, major burglaries, armed robberies with injuries, etc) it takes weeks and sometimes months to get a return. Pre-retirement I worked for an agency with the 3rd largest criminal lab in the world. We were fully operational with AFIS before the FBI. We were processing so many AFIS inquiries we wouldn't even run prints on dope packaging when we got multi-hundred kilos of coke. Just wasn't enough time and people to process cases like that. Do you really think if the lab doesn't have the time and resources to make an international drug conspiracy case that they're going to waste time checking on someone who took a McToy and ammo can that had been left under a pine tree in the middle of a forest? No lab director in their right mind would waste time of tying up AFIS running prints for someone who stole a $4 ammo can. And if they did they wouldn't be lab director very long. And any cop who would take the time putting together such a case is a cop that really isn't needed since apparently they don't have enough else to do.

 

Sorry the caches are missing. I'm sure that's a major deal in the small world of a lot of peoples' lives. It would be an aggravation for those who placed the cache. But the fact remains, it's no big deal. Would you rather the police spend their time and resources on the robbers, burglars, child molesters, white collar criminals, scam artists, etc or put someone on the case of a missing film can? I can tell you that if one of my Troops or Agents came in to my office wanting to pursue such a complaint of a missing ammo can I'd make sure that Troop/Agent would be finding something more important to be spending his time investigating and I'd be sending him in for fitness evaluation to determine why he thinks a missing ammo can is more important than the armed robberies, burglaries, murders, assaults, batteries, and other violent crime cases I had sitting waiting to be worked. As a tax payer I don't want cops spending their time looking for an ammo can bandit. I want them working real crimes.

[+sbell111]

You know, Wadcutter lives in IL. Some of the caches that were taken were in IL. Wadcutter also seems to know an awful lot about all this and is advising against action.

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

Edited November 14, 2006 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

I still think we should send in these guys....

[+baloo&bd]

1. This guy/gal(s) is looking for attention. This thread is satisfying that.

 

2. Nothing was stolen, not legally anyway. You abandoned ownership when you left it in the woods, unless of course you owned the woods as well. Technically, you are as guilty of littering as they are of stealing.

 

3. People do things for unknown reason that you will never figure out. Geocaching seems to be affected by our share. Ranges from someone who thinks it's cool to swipe coins to wacked out politicians wanting legislation because they think we harmed some daisies, and everything in between. The common thread among all of them is that if ignored, they get bored and go away.

 

Bottom line, in the end, there is nothing you can do to the individual, even if you catch them red-handed.

[+Wadcutter]

You know, Wadcutter lives in IL. Some of the caches that were taken were in IL. Wadcutter also seems to know an awful lot about all this and is advising against action.

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

Yup, got to admit, I've been running short of 35mm film cannisters and I have a fetish for Pirates of the Caribbean McToys. I won't stop until I possess them all. That will force up the value of 35mm cans and McToys and when the stock prices go up on those I'll then own Wall St. You laugh now but just wait until you have to pay $100 for a 35mm plastic film can and Bill Gates will be my pool boy.

[+truckdweller]

Where ya' been since your last Muggler thread frenzy 8 months or so, back in February? Just as in your Feburary thread, we've yet to see any proof that all these caches are missing other then a map with some push pin over lay on it.

We believe the serial muggler is possibly a short haul truck driver in the midwest, hitting numerous caches on his routes.

 

I suspect a group of college kids in Wisconsin, who for some reason, can't even take the time to respond to GeoCachers pleas to check their missing cache......missing cache.......missing cache!!!

 

Have a great day,

Truckdweller...."a short haul truck driver in the midwest"

[Clan Riffster]

Would you rather the police spend their time and resources on the robbers, burglars, child molesters, white collar criminals, scam artists, etc or put someone on the case of a missing film can?

A very practical summation of reality. Even if you hadn't mentioned it in your post, I'd guess you were a cop. You got too much common sense for any other career choice.

[+Tzoid]

I like the approach taken by R.O.B in post #56. Just deprive the guy of what he craves, and he will quit eventually.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Tzoid

[+mornin'glory]

we had a cache thief here for a little bit, but once we found out his name & address & let him know we know he went away. and letting him know we had the police on our side helped. he has since tried to make a comeback but it got squelched quickly.

[bogleman]

well the most likely suspect is the person starting this thread. truth.

"snip"

Odd, but could be true lots of work making a map of stolen caches could be a trophy

 

Where ya' been since your last Muggler thread frenzy 8 months or so, back in February? Just as in your Feburary thread, we've yet to see any proof that all these caches are missing other then a map with some push pin over lay on it.

We believe the serial muggler is possibly a short haul truck driver in the midwest, hitting numerous caches on his routes.

 

I suspect a group of college kids in Wisconsin, who for some reason, can't even take the time to respond to GeoCachers pleas to check their missing cache......missing cache.......missing cache!!!

 

Have a great day,

Truckdweller...."a short haul truck driver in the midwest"

I'm glad someone else was able to see the obvious

[+Wadcutter]

A very practical summation of reality. Even if you hadn't mentioned it in your post, I'd guess you were a cop. You got too much common sense for any other career choice.

Retired. 35 yrs total LE. The job was great but not near as good as retirement.

Stay safe brother.

[Team CDCB]

A few problems with your hypothesis.

1) To report a theft you need to identfy what was stolen. What specifically was in the cache container that was taken. No guesses, has to be a specific item. How can you identify the item? After a few visits who knows what's in any cache?

 

Quite true. Hadn't thought of that... still, the cache container itself has value. I know the ones I've put out cost be $3 each for the ammo cans.

 

2) Are the items in the cache actually yours? If you don't know what they are and the items are free to whoever finds the cache, then they really aren't your items. Therefore, you have no standing in the case nor claim as being the victim. What was taken wasn't yours.

 

Well, the container is. The log book, etc. are. But the value of those is likely less than a dollar total anyway...

 

3) What was the value of the item taken? There is no value to a McToy. MickeyD gives them away. Therefore they technically have no value.

 

I disagree. Just because an Item is given away does NOT mean it has no value. If you went and stole a box of McToys from a resturant and a cop saw you do it, do you really think you could tell the Judge: "Hey, they give them away, so really I just stolen nothing. In the same way, if you win a new car as a prize, does that mean I can steal your new car? After all, it was given away, and therefore has no value.

The items placed in the container are placed by people who do not expect to get those items back. In otherwords, they relinquish ownership of those items therefore they have no claim to them any more.

Again, I disagree with the concept here. You place the items with the intention that others would trade for them, or move them around, not for someone to take them away. It's somewhat of a meaningless discussion because you have a valid point that no one knows for sure what was in the cache at the time it was lifted, but just because you placed private property in a public place does not mean you reliquish any ownership of that property.

So let's assume that these 100 caches were all ammo cans and the actual value paid for each can was $3. This miscreant takes 100 of these cans. What has happened is not 1 count of theft of $300 but 100 counts of theft of $3.

Hmm... that's a point. I'm not sure what the legal situation is but you might be right that they couldn't "bundle" the amounts together to make it a higher offense.

5) Let's again take your 100 caches that were taken. If you look on the map these were taken in 4 different states.

True, but I believe that the far majority were done in WI. He's actually reportedly took over 120, I guesstimated 20 or so were out of state. I might be wrong on that.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Team CDCB

[+Wadcutter]

True, but I believe that the far majority were done in WI. He's actually reportedly took over 120, I guesstimated 20 or so were out of state. I might be wrong on that.

Doesn't really matter whether you disagree or not. I gave information from being in law enfocement for 35 yrs and running investigative units. You may disagree but the fact remains the items have no value and they would be considered abandoned once the placer leaves them in the container. The items were not left for anyone specific. If the container was destroyed by fire or flood, would you as the cache placer attempt to recoup your costs thru your home owners insurance? You may disagree but in the eyes of the law that ammo can is abandoned property as it is no longer in your immediate control. You placed it in an unprotected area where it is readily accessible to anyone who comes along.

Your scenario about stealing a box of McToys from the owner doesn't hold water. Not at all the same thing.

This is hardly the crime of the century. You never replied to the question is this really what you want your police to spend time investigating? Is this really what you want your prosecutors delaying a criminal trial to pursue? Do you really think a judge would look favorably on a case before his court involving the taking of an ammo can that was left unattended in a remote location? Do you want your tax money being spent for that? Are you old enough to pay taxes?

[+sbell111]

I wish I wasn't old enough to pay taxes.

[Team CDCB]

Doesn't really matter whether you disagree or not. I gave information from being in law enfocement for 35 yrs and running investigative units.

Well, you then obviously have far more experience than I do and I would tend to bow to your expertise rather than my own sense of what would likely be the case.

Your scenario about stealing a box of McToys from the owner doesn't hold water. Not at all the same thing.

Granted, it's not the same as "stealing" an item left in the woods. But I wasn't trying to refute the difference in the act. Rather I was trying to refute the fact that just because the item is "given away" (and I think that that is an argueable point) that it therefore has no value.

This is hardly the crime of the century. You never replied to the question is this really what you want your police to spend time investigating?

Probably not. But if you'll read most of my posts they usually center about geocachers collecting the necessary "evidence" and presenting it to the authorities to investigate.

Is this really what you want your prosecutors delaying a criminal trial to pursue?

Possibly. It would depend on the work load and the 'severity' of the crime. If you start going down this line of logic, where does it stop? What crimes are worthy of being considered, which should just be fogotten? If someone stealing $100 from a garage sale worthy of prosecting? Is someone stealing $300 worth of containers not worthy of prosecution? If someone 'shoplifts' a $15 item, should the police just forget about the incident because there are more important things to do?

 

I understand that there are more important things that someone stealing an ammo box in the woods... much more important and far more serious things. But do we just ignore lesser crimes because there are more serious stuff?

 

I reality what I would like to see is for some cachers in WI to catch the guy in the act, photograph him and his car/truck, and then pass the info to the police. Have the police visit the guy and tell him to knock if off or more serious stuff will happen. That would hopefully stop it. If it doesn't, then I would like to see more serious stuff happen.

Do you really think a judge would look favorably on a case before his court involving the taking of an ammo can that was left unattended in a remote location?

My suspicion is it would be plea bargined far before it made it to the court room, and if it did make it there it probably involved at least twice with the police visiting the moron and telling him to stop it. At that point I would expect the Judge to do rigth thing for the case, reguardless of the 'minorness' of the crime.

Do you want your tax money being spent for that?

I'd prefer that then some of the stuff my tax dollars are being spent on! Seriously though, this is just another form of the first question above. Should tax dollars be spent on a $15 shop lifting charge? What about a $100 snach and grab at a garage sale? At what point is something worthy of spending tax dollar on punishing the individual and at what point do we say it's okay to commit those crimes because we just don't care.

Are you old enough to pay taxes?

Unfortunately, yes.

[+TrailGators]

True, but I believe that the far majority were done in WI. He's actually reportedly took over 120, I guesstimated 20 or so were out of state. I might be wrong on that.

Doesn't really matter whether you disagree or not. I gave information from being in law enfocement for 35 yrs and running investigative units. You may disagree but the fact remains the items have no value and they would be considered abandoned once the placer leaves them in the container. The items were not left for anyone specific. If the container was destroyed by fire or flood, would you as the cache placer attempt to recoup your costs thru your home owners insurance? You may disagree but in the eyes of the law that ammo can is abandoned property as it is no longer in your immediate control. You placed it in an unprotected area where it is readily accessible to anyone who comes along.

Your scenario about stealing a box of McToys from the owner doesn't hold water. Not at all the same thing.

This is hardly the crime of the century. You never replied to the question is this really what you want your police to spend time investigating? Is this really what you want your prosecutors delaying a criminal trial to pursue? Do you really think a judge would look favorably on a case before his court involving the taking of an ammo can that was left unattended in a remote location? Do you want your tax money being spent for that? Are you old enough to pay taxes?

I agree with Wadcutter. The law needs to focus os the biggest maggots and work their way down the list. In the meantime, the unfortunate cachers in Wisconsin will have to do we we all do when our caches are muggled. I have had several of my own caches muggled over the years. It sucks but else would you expect from a maggot?

[teameverest]

Where ya' been since your last Muggler thread frenzy 8 months or so, back in February? Just as in your Feburary thread, we've yet to see any proof that all these caches are missing other then a map with some push pin over lay on it.

We believe the serial muggler is possibly a short haul truck driver in the midwest, hitting numerous caches on his routes.

 

I suspect a group of college kids in Wisconsin, who for some reason, can't even take the time to respond to GeoCachers pleas to check their missing cache......missing cache.......missing cache!!!

 

Have a great day,

Truckdweller...."a short haul truck driver in the midwest"

 

Truckdweller,

 

From evidence we have gathered from others, we think we have an idea of where this person lives, and his occupation, despite for some reason you taking offense to it because your a truck driver! Take the pine cone out of your rear end, you act as if were attacking your 'profession' . It's been declared already, our team is a busy one and cannot afford the time to geocaching we'd like. So if you want to attack us because we have only 30 finds, go ahead. We've been geocaching, and around the hobby for three and a half years now.

 

This post goes to Truckdweller, since he feels his profession has been attacked and he's been insulted. It is from the 'Midwest' forum posted by Team CDCB, i think it sums it all up very well.

 

Team CDCB: Everything you just said makes a lot of sense and seems to indicate that it probably isn't a short haul driver. But I don't get the part about being insulted. The OP didn't say that your husband did it. Nor did s/he say or imply that "Short Haul Drivers are nevarious folk, and therefore it makes sense that one of those dispicable people probably did it..."

 

The OP made what initially to me seemed like a logical guess based on the pattern of stolen caches. The new "evidence" that you presented was a pretty arguement against that being the case. But again, why the insult? Was it just because he mentioned that the moron doing this might be a short haul driver? If that's your logic that you've just insulted all the college kids (as well as adults returning to school) across the entire country.

 

--------------------

 

Signed... A 16 credit University of Wisconsin student & current holder of two jobs in the 'workforce'

Edited November 15, 2006 by teameverest

[+sbell111]

While we are back on that subject, I still don't understand why you think it's a truck driver. The map that was posted could have been anybody's geocaching activity.

[+sbell111]

Does anyone remember that really old thread where people were guestimating the location of cachers' homes based on their hides/finds?

[+Kabuthunk]

Let's just low ball it and put an average figure of $3 per cache.

Sorry, I've just GOTTA comment on that one. First... where in the world are you buying your cache containers? Stuff must be brutally easier to find in the states, because in Manitoba, a SMALL ammo-can cost me 12 bucks, and a large would be over 20.

 

Secondly, again... I don't know what the average is, but with the cache that I'm in the process of making, I'm not just tossing an ammo can wherever and letting it be. A helluva lot of work has gone into it by this point, and it's only half-done. Probably about 8 hours of work when it's done, if you ignore the glue needing 24 hours to dry from one step to the other. Thirdly... there's the equipment/materials used to camoflage the can... those set me back about another 20 someodd bucks. So all in all, the cache that I'm in the process of making will probably be closer to 50 bucks, after taxes.

Thirdly, that's not including the time used to make it.

 

Think of it like this... I also make chainmail stuff. I've made a chainmail shirt. It has maybe... 10 bucks worth of steel in it. Will you ever find one for sale for 10 bucks? No, because it took about a month of work, 4 hours a day, every day, to make. Hence, you're looking at about 300 bucks or so for a chainmail shirt (unless you get one of those india-slave-labour ones on e-bay... which will be about 90 bucks, and be horribly poor quality metal/work). So it's not just the absolute base materials you're looking at the price of... it's time and additional materials that will usually end up far greater than the initial cost of the box.

 

Unless of course this person is stealing only uncamoed, unworked-on, absolutely plain geocaches... otherwise your values will be completely off for that.

 

 

Have no disputes about the rest of your statements... just the price of a cache. Going on the thought that they stole 100 caches worth 3 bucks... that's not much. But stealing 100 caches worth 30 to 50 bucks... now we're talking some bigger numbers here.

[+sbell111]

Let's just low ball it and put an average figure of $3 per cache.

Sorry, I've just GOTTA comment on that one. First... where in the world are you buying your cache containers? Stuff must be brutally easier to find in the states, because in Manitoba, a SMALL ammo-can cost me 12 bucks, and a large would be over 20. ...

You're paying way too much. You would be better off having someone from the states buy them and ship to you.

[+Wadcutter]

Possibly. It would depend on the work load and the 'severity' of the crime. If you start going down this line of logic, where does it stop? What crimes are worthy of being considered, which should just be fogotten? If someone stealing $100 from a garage sale worthy of prosecting? Is someone stealing $300 worth of containers not worthy of prosecution? If someone 'shoplifts' a $15 item, should the police just forget about the incident because there are more important things to do?I understand that there are more important things that someone stealing an ammo box in the woods... much more important and far more serious things. But do we just ignore lesser crimes because there are more serious stuff?

Here's the real world then. Everyday prosecutors decline cases for a multitude of reasons. Not every case brought before a prosecutor gets prosecuted or even charged. Cases a lot more serious than someone taking an abandoned ammo can. Just a fact of life. I've worked cases and dealt with prosecutors in multiple states and jurisdictions. Haven't seen one yet who wasn't backlogged on serious cases.

 

I reality what I would like to see is for some cachers in WI to catch the guy in the act, photograph him and his car/truck, and then pass the info to the police. Have the police visit the guy and tell him to knock if off or more serious stuff will happen. That would hopefully stop it. If it doesn't, then I would like to see more serious stuff happen.

If one of my cops or agents thought they had the time to do that then I would have been finding something for them to do. We don't pay visits and make idle threats.

 

Tell you what you do. Next time you find a cache missing why don't you call the local police and report it. Obviously the cache didn't run off on its own so therefore someone took it. See what kind of response you get.

[+Wadcutter]

Let's just low ball it and put an average figure of $3 per cache.

Sorry, I've just GOTTA comment on that one. First... where in the world are you buying your cache containers? Stuff must be brutally easier to find in the states, because in Manitoba, a SMALL ammo-can cost me 12 bucks, and a large would be over 20. ...

You're paying way too much. You would be better off having someone from the states buy them and ship to you.

$12? That's what, $9-10 US?

At gun shows around here rusty but serviceable .30 cal/5.56 cans go for as cheap as $2. Very clean, no rust like new go for $5. .50 cal cans might be $1 or so higher.

Looks like I need to buy a semi load of ammo cans, take them to Canada to sell them if people are willing to pay that for them.

[+Lord Elwood]

You could always try one of these to get a picture of him.

[+Kabuthunk]

*shrug* Canadians tend to have guns less... so that might be it. Less supply to go around or something, I dunno.

 

In either case... doesn't change the fact that the cost of the ammo can was the lowest cost of the price of the cache. The cost of the work put into it and materials are by far more than the price of the box, be it expensive here compared to other places or not.

[+sbell111]

You could always try one of these to get a picture of him.

All threads go full circle eventually.

[+sbell111]

*shrug* Canadians tend to have guns less... so that might be it. Less supply to go around or something, I dunno.

 

In either case... doesn't change the fact that the cost of the ammo can was the lowest cost of the price of the cache. The cost of the work put into it and materials are by far more than the price of the box, be it expensive here compared to other places or not.

I get what you are saying, but I think the police are going to give you the same look your coworkers do when you explain the game and then tell you to get lost. If the police were to pursue it, I believe the local DA's office will kick the case as unimportant or unwinable. If the DA were to go forward with it, I think the judge would kick it and tell everybody to stop wasting his time.

 

I might be wrong, who knows?

Edited November 15, 2006 by sbell111

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

 

If one of my cops or agents thought they had the time to do that then I would have been finding something for them to do. We don't pay visits and make idle threats.

 

 

Same thing our game warden said when he was called in for an illegal boater/fisherman on a private lake. They (owner) wanted him to talk to the boater/fisherman and scare him off, warden replied he didn't have the time to go around scaring people, either leave them alone or arrest them. The boater was arrested.

[+rainbow3]

I doubt the guy is smart enough to cover his tracks that well. Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit. Personally, I prefer a 2AM door breach with 1/4 lb of C-4 on the locking mechanism.

Edited November 15, 2006 by rainbow3

[+sbell111]

Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit.

I'm thinking that 'someone's friend in law enforcement' would find themselves working for Wackenhut pretty quickly.

[+Wadcutter]

Someone has to have a friend in LE who could run his prints left on the envelope or letter or ziplock baggie. Once you get an address just pay the guy a visit.

I'm thinking that 'someone's friend in law enforcement' would find themselves working for Wackenhut pretty quickly.

Will Wackenhut hire cops who have been fired?

[+baloo&bd]

While this is an interesting exchange, I still think everyone is missing the point that technically, our caches are considered little more than litter. There have been other threads in the past about this very thing, in fact I think I remember some either getting threatened with or actually getting a fine.

 

I am not sure of the strict definition, however I am fairly certain that these could not be stolen since they are "technically" (and in some case actually) abandoned, they can not be stolen.

 

It's frustrating, but even if caught red handed i am not sure anything could be done.