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Geoevent to protest County that restricts geocaches


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We have a county next to the one we live at that restricts the number, type, containers, placement, length of time they can be there etc. :)

Which is not so bad, and I have tried to comply with all these rules and jumped through all the hoops :mad: but I still have not gotten the approval for my caches because they don't have time? I have been waiting for almost a year now for cache approval. When I call them, they tell me the land managers are 1. Fired and we are working on rehiring someone for that position or 2. They are too busy with other problems to worry about geocaches.

 

I filled out all the paperwork, but I have to wait until a land manager for the park I want to place the geocache can meet me there, see where I would like to place the cache, check out the container and then give her/his approval and then it's only allowed for one year and then has to be removed. I have filled out all the paperwork and requests and keep getting put on the back burner if not totally forgotten. :(

 

And the problem is that apparently I am not the only one, many cachers have tried placing caches but get the same run around and eventually many give up. And without the county's approval the reviewers of course will not approve the cache placements. :P

 

Now here is what I am thinking about doing and I would like positive input from all of you on what would be the best way to handle this? :)

 

I was thinking about a geoevent in one of the parks and have geocachers from all around to try and support the proposition of how to either get these rules removed or modified to require them to have a certain time frame that once the proper paperwork is submitted they have to comply or automatically allows us to have consent or something along this line.

 

I was thinking about inviting the local press as well as sending an invitation to the park managers as well.

And for those in charge of Groundspeak would this be an acceptable geoevent and how should I word the geoevent to comply with this? I do want to make it a positive protest that addresses the problems with their submitting and approval process of geocache placements. :)

 

Thank you all for your help and input! :D

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What SBell said, plus take the word and concept of protest completely out of the whole idea!

 

Just using the word 'protest' will stop you dead in the water.

 

They run the county, they know they can't please everyone, so they are quite used to unhappy people protesting their actions and policies!

 

And, if I read the OP right you don't even live in their county, so they likely don't much care what you think!

 

Protests will just make them dig in, plus I seriously doubt Groundspeak would support such a thing.

 

It sounds like education is one aspect of your approach, but they know or think they know enough about geocaching to restrict them, so I don't know how much good this will do. Still, a meeting with the county parks and lands managers seems to be your best bet.

 

I would bet that one person with a misunderstanding or prejudice regarding caching is behind the whole issue, one is all it takes at the county level, so try to discover the who and why behind these roadblocks.

 

Sometimes an oblique approach works - talk to the Board of Tourism or whatever serves that purpose, maybe even approach it from the Governor's office.

 

It sounds as if you have had some unsuccessful contacts with them, and not to insult you in any way, some folks just don't get along... it could be as simple as the person blocking things doesn't like you! Hey, it happens!

 

Try getting someone else to represent your interests and see if they get the same treatment. Got any simpering blonde geo-gals handy? :mad:

 

If you can get someone at the state level on your side that will go a long way toward influencing the county folks.

 

Some say that a definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, so a new approach with new people may just be the ticket.

 

Good luck!

Ed

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I'd do a CITO event (be sure to get the county parks & rec department as a co-sponsor). Have donuts with sprinkles there if you need. But cleanup the park, then take a staff person out to find 2-3 caches. Chances are:

1. They don't know very much about geocaching.

2. Half of what they do know is wrong.

 

Government people/departments aren't any different then other people. Everyone has a sign on their forehead that says "WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?" You can probably get them to allow caches that are more permanent then a year if you have a CITO event once a year or so at different parks that need attention.

 

Good luck and keep the updates coming!

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.... "WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?"...

 

I'd use a two pronged strategy. First I'd cycle a roving CITO event from one park to the next and get that permit. You can bet that they process park use permits (for BBQ's weddings etc.) in a timely fashon. I'd use your local geocaching groups name. If you don't have one, make a group up. The reason to do this is to get geocachings name in front of them all the time in a positive light.

 

Second, I'd also work out with all the local cachers a saturation matrix of the maximum number of caches in the park with the maximum number of people all of whom generate the maximum number of applications. I'd start doing this immediatly after that fist CITO event. Then each person should follow up on each permit once a month. 30 days is a reasonable follow up time. Be nice, be respectful, but follow up, by phone every 30 days. Stagger the 30 days so at least one call is being made per day. The reason to do this is to show that the policy generates work. Work when they can't process a permit and work when they do. Since these applications are for prospective caches, they don't need to meet the 528' rule. Use that to your advantage.

 

Finally I'd arrange a meeting at a low level, you want this to filter up the ranks, and suggest that if geocaching were unregulated the work load would go away, they could check up on caches any time online, they can call a member of the local geocaching group and get a run down any time they want of what cache is where and they win all the way around. If they have a concern they can call and get the cache removed. Best of all since most of them are non issues, there is no paperwork, no phone calls, and they have cleaner parks to boot.

 

Of course that takes organiztion and time.

 

The goal is essentially cache managment by exception. Fix the problem, only when there is a problem. The key is to remind them that 95% of caches are non issues, and the 5% are easy to fix. But 100% hooo boy is that ever work to deal with.

 

Edit: The BLM uses this method.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Wow, I am impressed with the idea to do the CITO, but I don't know if I'd have the nerve to try the overwhelming technique. I'd be a afraid it would backfire on me and the park folks would just decide that geocachers are a big nuisance, and it would be best to say "No" to any geocaches in my park.

 

I think I'd hold the second plan in reserve for a last-ditch effort.

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Wow, I am impressed with the idea to do the CITO, but I don't know if I'd have the nerve to try the overwhelming technique. I'd be a afraid it would backfire on me and the park folks would just decide that geocachers are a big nuisance, and it would be best to say "No" to any geocaches in my park.

 

I think I'd hold the second plan in reserve for a last-ditch effort.

 

Got to agree here, I think the 'overwhelm them' approach is a non-starter. It would not take long for everyone involved to get a belly full of this and as long as they remain in office / job the word geocaching would forevermore wave the red flag.

 

Irritating those from whom you need help is rarely productive!

 

Ed

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...Got to agree here, I think the 'overwhelm them' approach is a non-starter. It would not take long for everyone involved to get a belly full of this and as long as they remain in office / job the word geocaching would forevermore wave the red flag.

 

Irritating those from whom you need help is rarely productive!

 

Ed

I said be nice, be polite but follow up. Exactly what you are supposed to do. Geocachers didn't create the rules. Parks folks did. "Hey, I'd rather just place the cache and remove it if you told me there was a problem, but I have to do this here form so I thought it best to follow the rules, when's a good time to check back?" What you have done is given them a solution to the problem that they don't want to have. There is a reason I said start at the bottom. Managers do listen to their employees and if the employees who have to do the work think it's a waste I gurantee the parks folks have better things to do.

 

Worst case though, it backfires and geocaching is banned. That's not any different than never being able to get your permit even though geocaching is "allowed".

 

However it does take time and coordination and that's not an easy thing. It resembles work and you can't just throw a weekend at the problem and then go home. The CITO thing is nice, but it's not going to do much by itself. The best way is if your just happened to know the mayor or the right person and have their ear. That doesn't appear to be the case here.

 

Your real options are to do what it takes to get geocaching allowed or suck it up and go home. Getting geocaching allowed means that they honor and follow through with the permits or remove the requirment. As for suck it up and go home. Quitting is the easiet thing. That's why so many people do it.

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FYI you might show them some examples of what other Counties have done. We just got this enacted in Santa Clara County California, as an example.

 

Lots of folks worked a long time to get this accomplished. Personally, I started lobbying for this with the County almost 2 years ago. I started showing up at community group meetings explaining caching, then started going to Park Commission meetings to meet everyone, then started volunteering at trail maintenance events, then helped run one as a CITO event and got 20+ cachers to come. And lot and lots of other folks have been making contacts, giving presentations, building trust, etc. It took a long time, but working together we got the job done. I'm sure you can too.

 

...Sam

Edited by sammydee
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All good suggestions but not really helpful on addressing the issue. And it's not just me, all the cachers in this area have tried to get caches placed and they get the red tape and time delay and give up. It's an issue that I want to have changed. I think that publicity is what I need to get them to look at those rules and either abandon them or modify them to accomodate us. Thanks to all that put in their 2 cents worth.

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Having been a Bureau-cat for 21 years, I advise go slow and have 1, count 'em, 1 person as the selected spokesman. Be careful whom you select. If the meeting room is small don't swarm. Keep it small and professional. Dress for the oocasion. The "you don't get a second chance to make a first impression", is very true. Dress for success.

 

Also, county officials for the most part are regular people. Know your audience. I don't know your county, but I've dealt with many who range from pig farmers to bankers, retired genrals, and housewives. Respect the position of an elected official. I don't mean the person, but the office they hold. Also keep personal feelings toward a person aside. Get a neutral spokesman if it can't be kept impersonal.

 

unfortunately they are the chain of command for the county. The media may work for you or it could blow up in your face. Don't embarrass the officials. Bringing in "the state" will surely piss them off. They like their autonomy and don't like outside meddling, especially at the state level. Good or bad that's reality. Trust me, suits from the capital will put the officials on the defensive. Too many meetings in rural Missouri defending my job and our position before any action is addressed. Many times I've heard, 'we don't need this pup from the state running our business". That was one of the nice comments. Careful too not to embarrass the state people, if they are you only hope keep them on your side. They may be your "public servant", but not your slave.

 

Choose your battles and what hills you'd want to die on.

 

As far as donuts with sprinkles, i myself like cinammon crunch bagels

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All good suggestions but not really helpful on addressing the issue.

 

DD; Every single suggestion so far has pretty much adressed how to handle the issue.

 

It's an issue that I want to have changed. I think that publicity is what I need to get them to look at those rules and either abandon them or modify them to accomodate us. Thanks to all that put in their 2 cents worth.

 

Translation: I didn't really want suggestions, I just want a cheap and easy protest that makes me feel good.

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FYI you might show them some examples of what other Counties have done. We just got this enacted in Santa Clara County California, as an example.

 

Lots of folks worked a long time to get this accomplished. Personally, I started lobbying for this with the County almost 2 years ago. I started showing up at community group meetings explaining caching, then started going to Park Commission meetings to meet everyone, then started volunteering at trail maintenance events, then helped run one as a CITO event and got 20+ cachers to come. And lot and lots of other folks have been making contacts, giving presentations, building trust, etc. It took a long time, but working together we got the job done. I'm sure you can too.

 

...Sam

 

This policy would be a GREAT tool to show any county administrator. Especially the use of volunteer GeoWatch Monitors and a GeoWatch Coordinator who would take the responsibility for monitoring off the shoulders of County staff! And most of those rules come directly from the Geocahing.com site anyway.

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I have applications on file with them that are close to one year ago and still no word on getting them approved, if they are still in the system or in a trash can months ago. I am not trying to change the minds of one or two people. I am trying to get the rules themselves changed that they created to keep out caches. Only one cache for the WHOLE county park system has been approved in the past year. And I don't know how many have applied except for myself and one other cacher for sure. But I am going to guess there has been more than that.

And I am sorry if I was misunderstood when I said that previous posts were good but not addressing the issue, because it's not about changing a few minds it's about changing the way they have set up their process or rules.

I would like for them to be fair about this and allow more caches in their parks. And there are cachers that are willing to do what it takes to get them placed, which includes creating caches per their specs:

 

A Sarasota County Geocache Permit is required for an individual to place a cache in any Sarasota County

Park or Nature Area or City Park managed by Sarasota County. Please complete the top half of this form, review the attached guidelines, and sign and date the form. Attach a sketch, map, and/or photo of proposed location (include north arrow) and submit.

• Please allow up to 10 working days for the application to be reviewed by Parks and Recreation staff. At that time, the Park representative will arrange to meet onsite with the owner of the Geocache to review the cache’s proposed location. If acceptable, the coordinates shall be added to the Geocache Permit and the Park Manager shall sign and date the permit.

• Please be aware that Sarasota County Park management limits on the number of caches that may be authorized within each park.

• A Geocaching Permit expires one year from the date of issue. At the expiration date, the cache shall be required to be removed. At that time, should the Cache owner choose to submit a Geocache Application for the cache to be located within the same park, the cache shall be relocated to a position at least 500-ft away. This will be done in coordination with the Park staff as part of the review of the new application.

 

Geocache Container Conditions

• Geocaching containers must be transparent. Do not use ammo boxes, PVC pipes or other containers that might cause alarm. The cache must contain the permit and information on Geocaching in the event that a non-participant finds the cache.

• Offensive, illegal or dangerous items are not allowed in any cache.

 

Geocache Placement Conditions

• When placing a cache, the surrounding environment shall not be disturbed. Inappropriate placement activities include: digging holes, cutting vegetation, or attaching the cache to live trees. No tools shall be used in establishing the cache location.

• Place the cache in a safe area. Think about the safety of people who will be looking for your cache and use common sense. Avoid poison ivy, bees and wasp nests, animal trails, and ground nesting areas.

• The cache shall not be placed in any sensitive areas (e.g., wetlands, nesting areas or burrows, within 50-ft of the open beach)

• The cache shall be placed so that participants may use the established trails as much as possible.

• Compliance with established park hours, regulations, and ordinances is required when hunting for or hiding a cache.

 

NOTICE: Sarasota County assumes no liability for the safety or well-being of geocache participants, the caches or the contents therein while on County lands or lands managed by the County. Further, the County reserves the right to remove any cache that is in an inappropriate location, causing undo impacts to the natural environment, or deemed unsafe. In this event, County Park staff will notify the Cache owner.

These guidelines and conditions are necessary to protect our natural areas, the safety of all park users, and allow for the future use of the Sarasota County park system by geocaching participants.

 

But they are not following up on their end of the deal, 10 days has come and gone about 30 times for my application. So what are the consequences for not following through on their end, apparently none. So how do we get this changed?

 

So you see we need a way to change or modify the rules, not the minds of those that seem to be closed so we can refer back to the rules to help us enforce them.

 

Just a thought? And once again thanks to all for your help and insight into getting a resolution.

 

Dale

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Another trick you can use is this. Provide a cover leter with your application tha says nicely.

 

"After 10 days if I have not heard back I will assumed the cache meets all requirements and concerns of the park system and place it in the designated location."

 

Then do so.

 

This will invoke the next problem you will have. That being your approver knowing the park has a permit system in place will likely ask if you have an approved permit. Since the answer is that you don't have a permit but you have an approved application by their inaction in deying....you may not be able to get your cache listed on this site.

 

What you have is a prime example of why creating cache rules to regulate what does not need regulated creates more work. Normally governments have more work to get done than they have time or money for already. You should sell them on disabling all the rules and monitoring caching to see if it causes problems. Odds are it won't.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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What SBell said, plus take the word and concept of protest completely out of the whole idea!

 

Just using the word 'protest' will stop you dead in the water.

 

They run the county, they know they can't please everyone, so they are quite used to unhappy people protesting their actions and policies!

 

And, if I read the OP right you don't even live in their county, so they likely don't much care what you think!

 

Protests will just make them dig in, plus I seriously doubt Groundspeak would support such a thing.

 

It sounds like education is one aspect of your approach, but they know or think they know enough about geocaching to restrict them, so I don't know how much good this will do. Still, a meeting with the county parks and lands managers seems to be your best bet.

 

I would bet that one person with a misunderstanding or prejudice regarding caching is behind the whole issue, one is all it takes at the county level, so try to discover the who and why behind these roadblocks.

 

Sometimes an oblique approach works - talk to the Board of Tourism or whatever serves that purpose, maybe even approach it from the Governor's office.

 

It sounds as if you have had some unsuccessful contacts with them, and not to insult you in any way, some folks just don't get along... it could be as simple as the person blocking things doesn't like you! Hey, it happens!

 

Try getting someone else to represent your interests and see if they get the same treatment. Got any simpering blonde geo-gals handy? :laughing:

 

If you can get someone at the state level on your side that will go a long way toward influencing the county folks.

 

Some say that a definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, so a new approach with new people may just be the ticket.

 

Good luck!

Ed

Yo.... what this Ed guy said. He is right. And, I would add that it seems that whatever we resist or protest seems to persist or grow even bigger/stronger, and so why bother adding fuel to the fire?

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....So you see we need a way to change or modify the rules, not the minds of those that seem to be closed so we can refer back to the rules to help us enforce them.

 

Just a thought? And once again thanks to all for your help and insight into getting a resolution.

 

Dale

 

Plan C. Find the correct sympathetic ear. One key person can make all the difference in getting a park to recognize, enforce, and most importatnly in your case, live up to it's own policy.

 

You have a park system that refuses to do the job that it has chosen for itself. That's because someone has made a decision that they will not do it. It's true that things can be forgotten, fall into the cracks but if that's the case it's cured as soon as you call and check on your application. Since you have you have someone actually deciding not to process applications.

 

While some people are pointing out that you need to play nice, you still need to figure out how to work around the deadwood. That's why the sympathetic ear. You did document all your phone calls? You did send a letter requesting an update? You did make a copy of your orginal application? It's all ammo if do you find the key person to talk to and they show an interst and ask follow up questions.

 

The right person could also chunk the entire policy and just let you guys place caches.

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And I am sorry if I was misunderstood when I said that previous posts were good but not addressing the issue, because it's not about changing a few minds it's about changing the way they have set up their process or rules.

 

We all understand quite clearly DD.

 

But you don't seem to see that changing a few minds (the right few minds) is the first step to getting the process changed - it won't happen spontaneously. To do that, you need positive publicity - not a protest that gets you lumped in with every other protestor as somebody simply making noise.

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My concern is that if you raise a ruckus about the applications not being processed timely, they are going to implement an unwritten procedure that guarantees that all applications are processed within 24 hours of submittal. They'll deny every application, of course.

Edited by sbell111
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And I am sorry if I was misunderstood when I said that previous posts were good but not addressing the issue, because it's not about changing a few minds it's about changing the way they have set up their process or rules.

 

We all understand quite clearly DD.

 

But you don't seem to see that changing a few minds (the right few minds) is the first step to getting the process changed - it won't happen spontaneously. To do that, you need positive publicity - not a protest that gets you lumped in with every other protestor as somebody simply making noise.

 

The real answer is that "It depends". Most all things come down to the people as you have said. If you know the people you know the right angle of attack. A person who's mind can be changed by some positive effort should see that positive effort. A Deadwood employee who's already a lost cause when it comes to geocaching can cause the need for a protest. Of coures the point of the protest is for someone higher up the food change to notice that "they" have a problem that "they" don't want to have and that the deadwood employee is the root cause "they" are about to override. At the same time a well placed meeting after they see a major successful CITO event may do the job.

 

You have to know your audience, that's what's going to tell you what's going to work.

 

The MPAA just interceeded in trimming down legislation that would have limited their ability to create fake identities to "compbat piracy" this legistation was indended to further strenghten the laws HP broke when they lied about who they were to obtain phone records. Amazing what having the right ear can accomplish.

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I've had an application for permission to hide in city parks going through "committees" for a year now so I know how you feel. When I first asked the parks dept. about geocaching - sometime in February- I was told I had to submit a letter to the parks committee which would convene in about a month and I may at that time have to get up in front of the comittee and give a speech about what geocaching is. Holy moly all that for a tupperware container in the park! Fortunately I was told I didn't need to attend the meeting to give a speech- I guess the geocacher-u brochure I included with my letter was sufficient. Anyhoo we had a flood in the park and I had other things to do and so it wasn't until the fall when I started planning a multi in the park that I checked on my application's progress and it's still in committee (the water works committtee) and they probably won't get to it until spring. Well okay, with the snow I probably won't want to do anything until then so I'm not too distraught but this buraucracy has been a cause of angst.

I recommend talking to the people you are dealing with in person. I do most of my asking in person. Come spring I'll just keep showing up on their doorstep, if need be, to encourage them. Hey, how's it coming? Since in your case they already have a geocaching policy in place it seems you have to gently keep reminding them of that and how patient you've been and if there is anything else you could do speed approval. (Notice how I side-stepped asking/demanding they do something so they don't feel put out and get annoyed.) It can be touchy. Even going to someone higher up to see if they can help you can cause animosity from the people who actually have to do the work so keep it friendly.

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What Sammydee didn't mention was that the CITO event really impressed the park people. Cachers of all ages hauled out two truckloads of garbage from just that one small area .

The policy has been shown to other area park organizations and they like what they see.

Get people of all ages there to tell about how it got them to exercise in the park and the like.

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Here are a few ideas that I have that may help you out...

 

Contact a local school and see if they can include geocaching as part of their curriculum. You know, biology, geology and earth sciences type stuff. If you get a good teacher/school to take part, then they may be able to help put a different type of pressure on the park system. After all, it would not be totally for a hobby but also for education.

 

The parks commision should be elected officials. Why not run yourself? Then you could work from the inside to make changes.

 

Then there is always the local news (tv or print) that may be looking for a good local story.

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Listen to our county parks rule NO GEOCACHING!!! i cant belive its illegal shh... i still have some in there i need to pull out ill get to it eventually. but in Anoka County we are limited to city parks. :)

 

I am so sorry for you, how undemocratic is that! :rolleyes: Is there a way to repel the ban? :anicute: I hope so because it is such a waste and a blatant disregard for our rights as taxpayers. :P

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stay out of the county owned or operated parks look for a city or national park or national forest.
Uhhh ... I think the national lands are pretty much the definition of "off limits".

 

-eP

Not totally true. National parks are off limits, but national forests are generally OK.
Also, I'm told that other countries have 'national parks'.
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