Vertical Control Marks

[andylphoto]

This topic is an offshoot of another thread about a diskless stem.

 

I have logged several stations, mostly horizontal control or RMs where the disk has been missing, and noted in the log that the stem remains. In reading the comments by two old farts in the above thread, I wanted to expand on and ask opinions on the difference between horizontal control and vertical control marks in this situation.

 

For example, I recently recovered RK0314 in a similar condition. The disk is gone, but the stem remains. As was pointed out, obviously this is no longer useful as a vertical control mark because the elevation is taken from the top of the disk, and this has been lost.

 

The description matches, so the likelihood that this is the wrong stem is small. I am looking for opinions on logging this both here and with the NGS. I suppose on Geocaching, I could mark it destroyed, but there is still *something* to find there. As far as the NGS, my understanding is that I can't have it destroyed since the actual disk is not there. So...which would be more useful? A log of not found, or a found poor log with a note that the disk is missing, but the stem remains in place? As a vertical control mark, this makes it clear to anyone who wanted to use the mark what they would find if they went and found it.

 

Thoughts?

[ArtMan]

When I report something like this to the NGS I file it as POOR.

 

See, for example, the NGS datasheet for JV1361 in Ellicott City, MD. For Geocaching I left a Note. For NGS I included a description of what I found (basically what I said in my Geocaching log) and then included the following:

JV1361'BECAUSE OF CONDITION OF REMNANTS OF DISK, THIS STATION MAY NO LONGER

JV1361'BE SUITABLE FOR VERTICAL CONTROL. USE WITH CAUTION.

 

I specifically asked Deb about this, and she okayed it.

 

-ArtMan-

[AZcachemeister]

What Art said.

 

As for the Geocaching log, it depends.

 

How do/would you log a cache that has been trashed, but you did find the container and logbook?

[+Black Dog Trackers]

andylphoto -

 

Here are some references I collected on the topic of what condition report to use for a diskless stem. The subject has been discussed many times in the forums. It is a complicated one and there is no 100% assurance that a stem found is the proper one.

 

The references below show the NGS point of view on how to report diskless stems.

 

In this one, Deb Brown at the NGS mentiones this kind of thing and even says that some that are listed as destroyed should be changed to poor.

 

Here is another quote of Deb on the subject.

 

Here is a definition of POOR from Casey Brennan at the NGS in the NGS forum FAQ.

 

This on is a famous case discussed in the forum. In it is a quote from Deb. Note that this PID is a vertical control mark.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Black Dog Trackers

[StripeMark]

Here is a message from Deb that I got a while back on a couple that I had questioned:

 

>>>

Regarding condition codes,...here's the criteria so you can make your

own determinations:

 

- If the setting and marker is stable and legible then it's GOOD.

- If the mark cannot be found and no remnants are available to

photograph, use NOT FOUND.

- The station is disturbed or poor if it's marked up to the point where

the lettering is illegible or the marker has been hit or is tilting.

- The station is destroyed if the setting as well as the marker itself

are uprooted or otherwise unstable.

- If the station is destroyed and remnants are available to photograph,

send me the photos along with the PID and Designation and I'll flag it

destroyed.

<<<

[andylphoto]

Thank you! I thought that was the way to go, but then I saw a comment over in the other thread and started wondering if maybe the stem only was only "poor" for horizontal control stations. Looks like I need to do more searching before posting too. I thought I remembered seeing the description of "found poor" somewhere, but couldn't find it when I was looking.

 

Andy