Archiving, and then some!

October 29, 2006

Cache is GCX56P

This was a nice little micro in a cache-rich area. It was in plain sight, but the way it was disguised made it blend in perfectly with its surroundings. As micros go, it was a Very Good Hide.

This morning, for some reason, instead of merely archiving it, the owner apparently deleted everything about the cache that he could. I mean, the name of the cache, the who by, the description, the logs, everything. All they left behind was a message in the description "ALL postings WILL be deleted."

Isn't this a bit, well, odd? Draconian? Childish? Silly?

Edited October 29, 2006 by VeryLost

22k · October 29, 2006

They took thier ball and went home.

Let'em go.

Who needs'em?

October 29, 2006

They took thier ball and went home.

Let'em go.

Who needs'em?

Well, I don't need them. But it sure would be nice to have all the history of the cache available, especially since this appears to have affected the "found" count of everyone who logged the cache. I know it's missing from my found cache history and count.

Sigh. I just don't understand that level of petulance. It's like they're angry with the whole local geocaching community or something. Weird.

Edited October 29, 2006 by VeryLost

22k · October 29, 2006

Yes, I understand that people logs were lost.

It looks to me like this cacher wasn't mature enough to own a cache so let's hope they never do again.

October 29, 2006

Saw you re-entered your log... I would have done the same thing. Wonder if the owner will really take the time to delete it :blink:

What you could do, though (since the original was archived), is replicate the hide (same hide method, container, description, hint, etc..) as your own and explain why you did it on the cache page and that anyone who had a find on GCX56P that had it deleted is free to log it again.... Of course, anyone who hasn't already done the cache will get to experience it because of you and our friend SBD... well he gets to see how little power he has now

Of course, that's only if you really care about it. Otherwise, BlueDeuce is correct, just let the guy take his ball and go home.

10.1k · October 29, 2006

Saw one of those appear and disappear very quickly. Cache owner said it was in a town park, with town park access. Two cachers went looking for it. Both reported that, as far as they could tell, the area could only be accessed by crossing an active rail line, or trespassing on private property. One of those DNFs (yes, they were DNF logs) was from a cacher, who, IMHO, writes the nicest cache logs in the area. This cacher can find a ray of sunshine in a garbage dump! Shortly thereafter, the cache was archived, and every thing on the page was deleted.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

3.5k · October 29, 2006

A friend of mine once said, "all cachers bring joy to the game, some when they start and some when they leave".

October 29, 2006

If your log gets deleted try relogging by WAP as no notification gets sent to the cache owner.

24.7k · October 29, 2006

It sucks to lose the cache and it's history like that. It's ironic that the record will show what Blue Deuce has said. They took their ball and went home in a snit.

October 30, 2006

Saw you re-entered your log... I would have done the same thing. Wonder if the owner will really take the time to delete it

Well, if they do, I'm remarkably patient, and more than happy to re-enter it again

What you could do, though (since the original was archived), is replicate the hide (same hide method, container, description, hint, etc..) as your own and explain why you did it on the cache page and that anyone who had a find on GCX56P that had it deleted is free to log it again.

The thought actually did occur to me. It was a clever hide - right out in the open, and yet pretty much invisible. It's a shame to lose one like that. But by my own rule - no hiding a cache until I've found 100 - I'm not ready yet, and I wouldn't want my first hide to be a replica of someone else's good idea. Maybe my second hide, though.

Must ponder.

1.5k · October 30, 2006

The thought actually did occur to me. It was a clever hide - right out in the open, and yet pretty much invisible. It's a shame to lose one like that. But by my own rule - no hiding a cache until I've found 100 - I'm not ready yet, and I wouldn't want my first hide to be a replica of someone else's good idea. Maybe my second hide, though.

Must ponder.

I wonder, did the cache owner actually go out and retrieve the container, or is it still sitting there...

October 30, 2006

I wonder, did the cache owner actually go out and retrieve the container, or is it still sitting there...

Hehehe. I'm sensing a detour on my route home tomorrow

2.7k · October 30, 2006

Without looking at the cache or cacher in question, I am going to take a very unpopular stance and side with the cache owner on this one.

There are times when it would be REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS to be able to delete all information about a cache. With the system as it is, you cannot edit any details after the cache is archived.

The problem is (or could be) that the cache is in a location where the owner does not want associated with his/her name anymore (for any number of possible reasons).

Simply archiving the cache keeps it open and available for finding by whomever would choose to look for it.

A fer-instance might be if the owner had gotten word from the property owner that they no longer want all the geocaching traffic on their land. By simply archiving, cachers can (and probably WILL) continue to visit the site.

By changing the coordinates (necessary because GC will not delete them), deleting all pertinent information about the hide, and all logs that could be used to lead to the cache location, the owner can do all that can be done to accede to the property owner's wishes.

I personally know of one such cache that SHOULD be permanently DELETED from the site, because of a "major tiff" with the "property owner" and its being published on a public bookmark list even after the cache owner respectfully requested that it be removed from the list. The coordinates are still there for anyone to see and they can go visit the site any time they want in direct violation of the "property owner's" stated wishes and threats of prosecution.

IMHO, this makes GC liable for trespass violations which might occur, since they COULD take steps to prevent it but have failed to do so.

It will be my personal policy to do exactly as the OP's cited owner did if I am ever requested by a land manager to remove one of my caches. It is the only responsible thing to do unless Groundspeak decides to allow DELETING caches permanently.

As for the loss of smileys, I'm sorry for your loss. Condolences. If your numbers are that important, make your own dummy cache and log your finds on it.

GC could solve this aspect of it by simply deleting the public pages of archived caches and moving their logs to a generic "archived cache" page where the smileys would still count.

October 30, 2006

Confucius' Cat, your example makes sense, but I don't see why an owner couldn't simply change the coords to the middle of the ocean, change the description to "Do not attempt to locate this cache location-- it is private property and trespassers will be prosecuted..." (or somethin' like that!) and leave it at that. Encrypt the logs if you really want to be crazy about it. How would GC.com be liable if the cache was archived with a description like that? Why delete all the finds without so much as an explanation for your mistake?

October 30, 2006

Without looking at the cache or cacher in question, I am going to take a very unpopular stance and side with the cache owner on this one. [...] A fer-instance might be if the owner had gotten word from the property owner that they no longer want all the geocaching traffic on their land.

Since you haven't taken the time to look into the cache in question, and indeed couldn't deduce much from the sparse information that remains, I'll fill in a few blanks for you. The cache was located in a public park, within five feet of a popular bike path. It was directly adjacent to a disc golf playing field. During days of good weather, there is a pretty steady stream of recreational foot and bike traffic all around the cache.

According to my Cachemate records, only ten people ever posted a log for it. The last Found log was over two months ago.

In light of the recreational nature of the property, and the apparent small number of visits by geocachers, I seriously doubt that a property manager asked for it to be removed on account of excessive geocaching traffic! Even if that were the case, why not post an explanation in the cache description? "Park department requested this cache be removed" isn't a whole lot more typing than "ALL postings WILL be deleted", after all, and it's one heck of a lot more informative and pleasant!

By simply archiving, cachers can (and probably WILL) continue to visit the site. By changing the coordinates (necessary because GC will not delete them), deleting all pertinent information about the hide, and all logs that could be used to lead to the cache location, the owner can do all that can be done to accede to the property owner's wishes.

As it happens, the cache coordinates are still available, unchanged, on this cache. I'm under the impression that coordinates can be neither changed nor deleted without intervention from higher ups. By deleting the description and all the logs, the cache owner has done nothing at all to prevent anyone with a GPSr from following the coordinates to a public park. All they've done is erase the record of the experiences of other geocachers.

As for the loss of smileys, I'm sorry for your loss. Condolences. If your numbers are that important, make your own dummy cache and log your finds on it.

Condescending attitude duly noted.

3.2k · October 30, 2006

... it sure would be nice to have all the history of the cache available, especially since this appears to have affected the "found" count of everyone who logged the cache. I know it's missing from my found cache history and count.

If you'd like your find count to remain accurate you could always log the find on one of your own caches. Include whatever description you like to explain why you're logging it on a different cache page. You could even include a link to the gutted page for reference.

I just checked your profile and I see you don't yet have any hides of your own. In that case, see if you can talk a friend into using one of their caches.

You're welcome to use one of mine if you like.

1.2k · October 30, 2006

Without looking at the cache or cacher in question, I am going to take a very unpopular stance and side with the cache owner on this one.

There are times when it would be REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS to be able to delete all information about a cache. With the system as it is, you cannot edit any details after the cache is archived.

That may be so, but after having looked at the profile of the hider I'm more inclined to go with the "took his ball and left," theory. If this person ever found a cache, then he deleted all of his own finds too.

October 30, 2006

If you'd like your find count to remain accurate you could always log the find on one of your own caches. Include whatever description you like to explain why you're logging it on a different cache page.

It's not just my personal count, though that's certainly part of it. I just find it rather arrogant for one person to wipe out the record of a group of other cachers' experiences.

I just checked your profile

My condolences!

and I see you don't yet have any hides of your own.

Yeah, not yet. I set myself an arbitrary requirement that I have to have 100 finds before I place my first hide. I figure the experience will be helpful, and I wanted to be sure that I'd stick with the hobby, rather than being irresponsible by placing a cache then bailing out.

You're welcome to use one of mine if you like.

Hehe, thanks, but I don't think that will be necessary.

2.7k · November 2, 2006

As it happens, the cache coordinates are still available, unchanged, on this cache. I'm under the impression that coordinates can be neither changed nor deleted without intervention from higher ups. By deleting the description and all the logs, the cache owner has done nothing at all to prevent anyone with a GPSr from following the coordinates to a public park. All they've done is erase the record of the experiences of other geocachers.

Precisely my point- the "higher ups" need to address this issue. The inability of the cache owner to change coordinates is a NEW "feature". Previously the owner could take the appropriate action himself. Since the site does not make provision for permanent deletion, all the owner CAN do is delete the logs and description.

My comments are not in reference to the cache in question but rather to the general principle. I guess in your case the offensive party just wanted to take his ball and go home. Still, it is his ball.

As for the loss of smileys, I'm sorry for your loss. Condolences. If your numbers are that important, make your own dummy cache and log your finds on it.

Condescending attitude duly noted.

Noting of condescending attitude duly noted.

I really didn't intend it that way, but it certainly is easy to see it that way. I guess I should have put a :unsure: beside it. *apologizing*

But notwithstanding the tone, my recommendation is valid.

Confucius' Cat, your example makes sense, but I don't see why an owner couldn't simply change the coords to the middle of the ocean, change the description to "Do not attempt to locate this cache location-- it is private property and trespassers will be prosecuted..." (or somethin' like that!) and leave it at that. Encrypt the logs if you really want to be crazy about it. How would GC.com be liable if the cache was archived with a description like that? Why delete all the finds without so much as an explanation for your mistake?

As above- owner cannot change coords now. Encrypting logs hides nothing. Logs that did not have useable information for finding the cache could be left, but I'm sure there would be a lot of flak if the owner only deleted some logs and left others. Owner does not have the power to EDIT logs, so deletion is only option.

Sure would be nice if the cache owner COULD permanently delete a cache. Why must an owner live with his mistake forever when it COULD be so easily rectified?

2.5k · November 2, 2006

Sure would be nice if the cache owner COULD permanently delete a cache. Why must an owner live with his mistake forever when it COULD be so easily rectified?

Perhaps because there would be the potential for a disgruntled cache owner to removed his 100 caches and the 2000 logs that go with them, affecting the caching record of many innocent people, just out of spite? Given some of the antics we've all seen when some people commit geocide, that is a very real possibility. I know I would be unhappy to see my record become that warped and confused just because a local cacher wanted to take his ball and go home.

2.2k · November 2, 2006

There are times when it would be REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS to be able to delete all information about a cache.

We've had that happen out here. In one instance, there was a new cache placed, but the hider had entered the wrong W coords. (Way wrong!) :unsure: Anyway, I recognized the pic in the cache description, so I went out, found the N numbers, and projected along the W coords, and found the cache. I signed the log as FTF and went home and posted corrected coords. Well, the correct coords were too close to another cache, and the hider didn't have anywhere to move it. So, the reviewer "Unpublished" the cache and all traces of it were gone. So, it can be done.

November 2, 2006

There's a cache in the UK that has been completely deleted for very understandable reasons at the request of both the placer and landowner.

You certainly used to be able to archive a cache and set it such that it doesn't show up other than through the profile page or through the logs of someone who has posted a one for the cache. Not sure if that option still exists but if it does it is a good way of making it almost invisible while maintaining all the logs.

9.2k · November 2, 2006

Unpublishing a cache is one site tool.

A "change coordinates" log is another site tool, which the owner can use to blur the coordinates to end in some zeroes, or to move to the parking lot instead of the flower garden, in connection with archiving a cache.

So it is untrue to say that there are no means available to address the rare cache with problems like Confucius Cat describes.

A reviewer or site admin can also change the coordinates to a distant point, like the middle of the nearest lake or a mile offshore in an ocean. But this throws off the maps and lots of other statistical information for everyone who found the cache.

Thanks for this thread. I've bookmarked it for linking whenever someone asks for archived caches to be included in pocket queries. That is rather the polar opposite of being able to delete all traces of an archived cache.

7.2k · November 2, 2006

Thanks for this thread. I've bookmarked it for linking whenever someone asks for archived caches to be included in pocket queries. That is rather the polar opposite of being able to delete all traces of an archived cache.

While on the other hand a query with archived caches will allow us to remove those caches from our databases just like the cache owner wanted. Otherwise, it stays active until we run a macro or manually check and remove it. In the meantime we think it's still viable. Additionally, being able to positively remove archived caches because we are told it archived would allow us to run queries that return only those caches that have changed in the last seven days thus greatly reducing server load.

I've mentioned before that including all caches archived in the last 7 days would greatly benefit both the community and the site. It would also keep the notion of archived caches are not meant to be hunted because older ones aren't included and the latest ones self-remove themselves from off line databases.

I see it as a win-win.

2.4k · November 2, 2006

There are times when it would be REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS to be able to delete all information about a cache.

We've had that happen out here. In one instance, there was a new cache placed, but the hider had entered the wrong W coords. (Way wrong!) Anyway, I recognized the pic in the cache description, so I went out, found the N numbers, and projected along the W coords, and found the cache. I signed the log as FTF and went home and posted corrected coords. Well, the correct coords were too close to another cache, and the hider didn't have anywhere to move it. So, the reviewer "Unpublished" the cache and all traces of it were gone. So, it can be done.

But your log wasn't deleted when the reviewer "unpublished" the cache, and your find-count stayed the same, right?

I was the only finder on a cache that was retracted about 2 hours after being published. All publicly visible traces of it are gone; it doesn't show up in the hider's profile. But my log is still there, and my find count did not drop when the cache was retracted. True, no one but me can see my found-it log, as far as I know. The cache doesn't show up if someone goes to my profile and looks at my list of found caches -- but it does show up under "My Account -> Show all logs for Caches".

7.3k · November 2, 2006

There are times when it would be REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS to be able to delete all information about a cache.

We've had that happen out here. In one instance, there was a new cache placed, but the hider had entered the wrong W coords. (Way wrong!) Anyway, I recognized the pic in the cache description, so I went out, found the N numbers, and projected along the W coords, and found the cache. I signed the log as FTF and went home and posted corrected coords. Well, the correct coords were too close to another cache, and the hider didn't have anywhere to move it. So, the reviewer "Unpublished" the cache and all traces of it were gone. So, it can be done.

But your log wasn't deleted when the reviewer "unpublished" the cache, and your find-count stayed the same, right?

I was the only finder on a cache that was retracted about 2 hours after being published. All publicly visible traces of it are gone; it doesn't show up in the hider's profile. But my log is still there, and my find count did not drop when the cache was retracted. True, no one but me can see my found-it log, as far as I know. The cache doesn't show up if someone goes to my profile and looks at my list of found caches -- but it does show up under "My Account -> Show all logs for Caches".

I just think that is so weird. I never even knew that could happen until just recently. I can see the reasons. But it seems strange to lose the history like that, even for yourself. But I guess it's good to have a way to preserve the stats at least.

7.3k · November 2, 2006

I also wanted to mention something about that one scenario where a cache owner would want to delete a cache page or drastically change the coords because of land owner issues. If there really is a problem, and you're having issues with people still trying to find it and log it, you can have the reviewer lock the cache. They try not to do this very often because of different reasons such as people trying to catch up with old logs and so forth. But if this really is a problem with land managers and people abusing it I'm thinking they might do it. Who would want to waste their time trying to find a cache (especially if you state in the description that the cache has been removed) that isn't there, and you definately cannot log a smilie on it? Not gonna happen. Takes care of that issue.

2.2k · November 2, 2006

Precisely my point- the "higher ups" need to address this issue. The inability of the cache owner to change coordinates is a NEW "feature". Previously the owner could take the appropriate action himself. Since the site does not make provision for permanent deletion, all the owner CAN do is delete the logs and description.

Just to point out the inaccuracy of this post, but as a cache owner you can still change the coordinates, it's right there on the edit page.

November 2, 2006

Just to point out the inaccuracy of this post, but as a cache owner you can still change the coordinates, it's right there on the edit page.

I'm pleased to see you mention that, because it's something I've been wondering about WRT a cache I've been to where the cache owner states in the notes that the initial coordinates are off, and suggests using alternate ones - but didn't change the official coordinates. Problem is, of course, that at this point the notes with the correct coordinates are back in the logs - IOW, not visible on first view of the cache's page - and people are searching with the wrong coordinates again.

That, and another cache where the owners have relocated the cache a bit & only put the new coordinates in the notes, had me wondering whether it IS possible to change official coordinates..... now I know. :tired:

2.6k · November 2, 2006

Two caches that I have done come to mind, the first one I did back in 01 or 02 the owner removed all information and set the coords to 0, but he left all the logs.

The 2nd one was a short time later the cache was moved and the owner removed all of the original logs, luckly another cacher spotted it and relogged it and left a note to the owner, the cache popped up as not found I read the logs and and relogged it also and left a note for the owner.

September 27, 2002 by O.H.D. (570 found)

User's web page

Uneakone, to answer your question vis-a-vis the logbook...

This cache was originally entitled 'A Free Man in Perris'

& was located out along highway 74 a few miles to the east.

Currently, there is an extensive construction project underway

in an effort to widen this stretch of road, and the cachesite was

smack in the path of bulldozers eventual path. Knowing that the

cache's days were numbered, I quickly got it out of there &

placed it at the spot you just visited. I used the same container

& managed to include most of the original contents... including

the logbook. After about a month, I deleted the logs from the old

location.

Mr.OHD

[last edit: 9/27/2002 7:34:46 PM PST]

September 27, 2002 by uneakone (544 found)

9:13am - Happy1 ditched work so that we could go get the Canadian

geocache coin. We decided that bushwacking would be so much fun

that we went straight up the hill (followed the gps). You would

think by now that we would know better. It gave us a good workout

and we took the easier way down. Took the Canadian coin and left

mini plier tool, happy face pin, happy1 geocacher's card &

medicated q-tip for the next ones that bushwack their way up in

shorts.

One question - How come so many people have logged into the log

book but not here?

Uneakone & happy1

Just a little history of geocaching

7.3k · November 2, 2006

Just to point out the inaccuracy of this post, but as a cache owner you can still change the coordinates, it's right there on the edit page.

I'm pleased to see you mention that, because it's something I've been wondering about WRT a cache I've been to where the cache owner states in the notes that the initial coordinates are off, and suggests using alternate ones - but didn't change the official coordinates. Problem is, of course, that at this point the notes with the correct coordinates are back in the logs - IOW, not visible on first view of the cache's page - and people are searching with the wrong coordinates again.

That, and another cache where the owners have relocated the cache a bit & only put the new coordinates in the notes, had me wondering whether it IS possible to change official coordinates..... now I know.

Lep mentioned it as well, a few posts up. :blink:

2.2k · November 2, 2006

Just to point out the inaccuracy of this post, but as a cache owner you can still change the coordinates, it's right there on the edit page.

I'm pleased to see you mention that, because it's something I've been wondering about WRT a cache I've been to where the cache owner states in the notes that the initial coordinates are off, and suggests using alternate ones - but didn't change the official coordinates. Problem is, of course, that at this point the notes with the correct coordinates are back in the logs - IOW, not visible on first view of the cache's page - and people are searching with the wrong coordinates again.

That, and another cache where the owners have relocated the cache a bit & only put the new coordinates in the notes, had me wondering whether it IS possible to change official coordinates..... now I know.

Feel free to email me the GC#s of such caches you come across (as long as they're in MD)

2.2k · November 2, 2006

Lep mentioned it as well, a few posts up.

I repeated it (with less words ) to make sure the point was driven home in case anyone missed it in Lep's post.

:blink:

7.3k · November 2, 2006

I have a friend here that had some local problems and deleted all of his own logs so he doesn't show up in the system (although now he does since you can look up a user by their hides). He took all of his caches, archived them, and changed the description to a cut and paste explanation of why he was leaving geocaching. I wish that he had tacked that on the end of the description so that he didn't mess with the cache history, but at least he was respectful and didn't hurt anyone's finds. He understood that while he wanted to leave, no one else had to be too hurt over it (except for losing an excellant local cacher/hider).

1.8k · November 2, 2006

Unpublishing a cache is one site tool.

A "change coordinates" log is another site tool, which the owner can use to blur the coordinates to end in some zeroes, or to move to the parking lot instead of the flower garden, in connection with archiving a cache.

So it is untrue to say that there are no means available to address the rare cache with problems like Confucius Cat describes.

A reviewer or site admin can also change the coordinates to a distant point, like the middle of the nearest lake or a mile offshore in an ocean. But this throws off the maps and lots of other statistical information for everyone who found the cache.

Thanks for this thread. I've bookmarked it for linking whenever someone asks for archived caches to be included in pocket queries. That is rather the polar opposite of being able to delete all traces of an archived cache.

If a reviewer retracts a listing, do any existing find logs remain? (and count in your find total?)

2.4k · November 2, 2006

If a reviewer retracts a listing, do any existing find logs remain? (and count in your find total?)

Apparently yes: see my post above.

4.7k · November 3, 2006

first: i am against stupid petulant erasures.

now, in possible defense of the hider: i was recently asked (quite forcefully) to remove a cache from its location. it originally had the approval and assistance of the facility manager, who just retired and was replaced. the new manager demanded that i not only archive it, but remove all traces that it ever existed.

i archived it immediately, but managed to get by with the story that it was unlikely for the traces of it to disappear as well, being part of our shared history.

2.7k · November 3, 2006

Lep mentioned it as well, a few posts up.

I repeated it (with less words ) to make sure the point was driven home in case anyone missed it in Lep's post.

my bad

i see it can be done, but not the way it used to be. You still cannot update coordinates very far apparently. it doesn't seem like you can change them enough to HIDE the original cache location sufficiently to oh, say, keep someone off someone's property. So what's your point?

The probblem I proposed would not need them changed, just HIDDEN. I know it is POSSIBLE because when not logged in, coords are duh-duh-duh-duh *rolling hand over* HIDDEN.

Unpublish sounds like a good thing.

7.3k · November 3, 2006

Lep mentioned it as well, a few posts up.

I repeated it (with less words ) to make sure the point was driven home in case anyone missed it in Lep's post.

Yes. You did a very good job. :laughing: :unsure:

38.2k · November 3, 2006

see it can be done, but not the way it used to be. You still cannot update coordinates very far apparently. it doesn't seem like you can change them enough to HIDE the original cache location sufficiently to oh, say, keep someone off someone's property.

Is people visiting a cache site once a cache has been archived and removed cache really an issue? I can't imagine why geocachers would visit a cache site if they know it has been archived and the cache is gone. I know there may be a few with the waypoint in their GPS, or an old cache page, but deleting the cache from the site won't address that situation.

All you need to do is archive the cache and change the text on the page to say "This is private property, trespassers will be prosecuted (or whatever the situation is) and the cache has been removed". That should eliminate any reason for a geocacher to visit the site and if for some reason one does, he will be doing so with the full knowledge that what he is doing is illegal and he is on his own.

Edited November 3, 2006 by briansnat

Archiving, and then some!

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