Jump to content

Turned down by the Township


Wayfinders

Recommended Posts

I try to do things right. I only have one hide so far, and I got permission from the town to place it. I recently asked another Township here in Hunterdon County New Jersey for permission to place a HANDICAPPED ACCESSABLE cache at a local park. This park has TONS of parking and wide open spaces.

The "Recreation Supervisor" says:

 

Scott,

 

At this time this is not a program or project that we would like to start at Bundt Park. Bundt Park is used heavily by township residents for a variety of sports events and programs, it would concern me a great deal to have people “wandering” around the parking lot looking for a Geocacher during one of our many events.

 

Thank You,

 

Tom

 

I do a lot of work for and with the Handicapped and this really burns me up!!

Link to comment

I wouldn't even have asked for permission in the first place. :) It's a park not owned by the National Park Service, so I would just go ahead and do it. But now that it has been turned down, I would e-mail him back and try and convince him to let me do it. I'm just 13, so I don't know if you want my advice or not, :) but I would tell him that geocaching most likely would not affect any of the events in any way, and that it may even result in the park getting cleaner (depending on who is a cacher in your area).

 

I agree with you, a note like that would make me really mad too! :) Good luck!

Link to comment
I wouldn't even have asked for permission in the first place. :) It's a park not owned by the National Park Service, so I would just go ahead and do it.

Depending on the area, parks that are not NPS may still require permission. My review area is one such location, so be careful before giving such advice if you're not sure of the requirements in the OP's home area.

Link to comment
I wouldn't even have asked for permission in the first place. :) It's a park not owned by the National Park Service, so I would just go ahead and do it.

Depending on the area, parks that are not NPS may still require permission. My review area is one such location, so be careful before giving such advice if you're not sure of the requirements in the OP's home area.

Good point. The Township and city where I live have already mass-approved geocaching in parks, so that's why I said that. Thanks.

Link to comment

Even with Quiggle's comments, which I think are valid however based on an area that is more the exception than the rule, I would always fall on the side of "ask forgiveness, not permission", keeping in mind:

 

1. Is it private property or consider public access.

 

2. Do they have a stated policy.

 

3. Will this in some way harm or adversly disrupt the area with it's placement.

 

4. Does it meet the stated GC guidelines.

 

If it passes this simple test, send it to the reviewer. If they know something you don't, they will explain it and you can add it to your own list of criteria.

 

I will say that the no does not nearly offend me as much as the reason given. What is a park for if not to wander around? Sometimes we lose sight of the purpose for a facility. Do they permit people wandering around looking at birds? Is it not permited for kinds to wander around looking for each other during hide and seek? If I chose to come there to read a book and eat my lunch, am I loitering?

 

I know it sounds sarcastic, and I am in no way recommending it, however my first response would have been to "please send me a list of "approved' activities for this park, you know, the one I pay for every year."

Link to comment

Do caches already exist in the town in question? If so, you might have killed geocaching in your town with your permission request. I think its best to check with your local cachers first and see what they say before blindly asking the goverment for permission.

Link to comment

Maybe a letter for publication in the local paper quoting the response and wondering why they haven't posted that only prior approved activities are allowed in the park and non-participants must leave?

 

If parks get less use, public funding goes down, they get into disrepair, less people use them,...

 

Geocaching is such a low impact use, and just about 0 cost to the park maintainer that its win-win. I

 

f they have a car counter at the entrance and show a 1000 more cars coming, they can use that to argue for another $1000 in the budget. And if that $1000 keeps a water fountain working and TP in the bathrooms, its worth it.

Link to comment

I live right across the border from you and PA is actually looking for people to put caches in their parks. You might try and contact someone from the DCNR (http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/geocaching.aspx) and ask if you may forward their phone number to your local park administration so that they can get feedback on the benefits of caches in your local park. They're even holding training sessions over here to get more cachers into parks locally. Once someone breaks a trail, it's a lot easier to get others to follow. :)

Link to comment

it would concern me a great deal to have people “wandering” around the parking lot

 

I am not sure that the park is the concern. It sounds to me that the promblem is the parking lot.

Was the cache going to be in the paking lot? Could the worry about safety and liability isues be the sticking point?

Link to comment

I don't think the recreation supervisor completely understood what you were talking about. Maybe you should make an appointment with him so you can discuss it in person. Bring the cache container with you so you can show him, and draw a map to show exactly where the container will be. Remember to mention CITO. People who are in charge of parks like it when you clean it up for them. If he won't agree to meet with you then go higher up till somebody will.

Link to comment

Frisbee.....

 

I'm with the poster who said "ask forgiveness, not permission".....

 

it would concern me a great deal to have people “wandering” around the parking lot looking for a Geocacher during one of our many events.

Does the guy who wrote this know what geocaching is? Seems like he is talking about hide and seek - 'looking for a GEOCACHER'?

Link to comment

I don't think the recreation supervisor completely understood what you were talking about....

 

Bingo. Take the guy caching. From his answer he doesn't understand geocaching and thus took the conservative road and said no to an activity that involved pretty much everything he does allow in the park. Once you take people caching they do have a much better idea of what the heck they are talking about when it comes to the activity. A lot of park types assume that geocaching is a variation of an event.

 

For my TB Hotel, that's what it took to get permission. I was asked questions like "can just anybody seek these things? Could someone put drugs in it? and so forth. I had to answer honestly and the doubt remained so I took her caching, she had fun and I got my permssion and the cache get's good comments from seekers. Plus I think the folks who know about the cache like that it's there now.

Link to comment

I don't agree with the person who said "don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness." This is the best way to bring a black eye to geocaching. I am a city manager in a small city in Michigan. I have a blog and I have posted about the advantages of being a cache-friendly city. Here is a link to another post on hiding geocaches.

 

The Michigan Geocaching Organization is one group that has had a lot of success in getting the cooperation of various parks agencies to allow the hiding and seeking of geocaches. Try again to get the support of the director. If you don't then appeal to the township manager or the chief elected official. If you make the jump to the governing body or to the parks commission, request to be placed on their agenda. Bring as many geocachers with you to the meeting as possible, especially those who reside, vote, and pay taxes in the township. Keep it professional and logically set forth your position. If the intent is for citizens to use the parks, then this is an innovative way for people inside and outside the community to enjoy the parks in a non-harmful way.

 

Good Luck!

Link to comment

Frisbee.....

 

I'm with the poster who said "ask forgiveness, not permission".....

 

it would concern me a great deal to have people “wandering” around the parking lot looking for a Geocacher during one of our many events.

Does the guy who wrote this know what geocaching is? Seems like he is talking about hide and seek - 'looking for a GEOCACHER'?

 

It seems like he has no clue what geocaching is about. One or two people looking for a cache every few days will not conflict with any "events".

 

I think Criminal's little essay from long ago on the subject of permission hits the nail right on the head in this instance:

 

Permission has reared its ugly head again and another new cacher has decided he/she has a better way of playing the game. I’ve started a new thread because I will cover this so thoroughly that it will appear, at times, to be off topic.

 

This is what I learned in the Air Force: There are two types of people in the AF (and the world in general). The first believes they can do nothing without explicit permission. They will not act unless they know factually that the act is an approved act. If they have the slightest doubt, they will find someone to ask for permission. The second type of person believes they can do anything unless they are aware of a prohibition specifically against the act. They see the lack of prohibition as implicit permission.

 

The difference between the two is all about freedom. Before I discuss freedom, let me first explain the severe danger of asking permission. People, in general terms, like to avoid conflict, they like their jobs and their lives to be as simple and trouble free as possible. They want routine. They don’t want some anal retentive worry wart to come along and start making demands for permission or authorization to do something they never heard of. So there you go, feeling warm and smug, asking Joe Flunky park employee if you can hide a geocache in a park over which he has some degree of authority. He’s never heard of it, can’t understand even the most eloquent explanation you offer, and will become annoyed. Why? Because you’ve just destroyed his whole sense of routine. Now he has to go find information about an activity he doesn’t comprehend. He knows that if he asks his boss, he’ll sound like a stuttering idiot trying to explain it. What will he do? He will deny your request, because that’s the easiest way to get back to his routine while exposing him to no risk. Before you asked, you had implicit permission at least, and deniability nonetheless. Now you have been specifically prohibited and have effectively given away some of your freedom. Unfortunately, there are any number of whiners and pantywastes who find it impossible to enjoy such a “rouge” game and try to change the game to suite them, instead of changing their own philosophy to agree with the game.

 

And that’s what it’s all about, freedom. I gave 20 years for it, some gave nothing, and others gave everything they could. You didn’t get your freedom from the constitution; rather, that document merely affirms your freedom. If you can’t understand the difference, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time or space here to educate you. Why do you obey laws? Really, ask yourself why you obey the laws? If your answer is, “to avoid punishment” you are not free. You are a slave to the law and slaves are not free. Ask me why I obey laws and I’ll tell you it’s because I believe in the limits imposed to ensure a civilized society. Now here’s the catch, I reserve the right to disobey any law at my whim. Don’t be shocked, because therein lies my freedom; I could break the law, but I have made the free will decision not to. I know how to pick locks, I am comfortable moving about in the dark without external lighting and can do so almost without making a sound, I have knowledge of how certain equipment works and how to circumvent its intent. I choose not to.

 

Sadly, freedom is an addictive drug. I will, without fail, fight tooth and nail against anyone who tries to take even the most miniscule portion of my freedom from me. It’s a very insidious disease. It never strike catastrophically, rather, it sneaks in a little at a time. I don’t and won’t ask permission unless I am aware of a prohibition. I refuse to surrender any of my freedom. Guess what? This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required. So to the person (now and later) who thinks geocaching.com should require a lengthy procedure to ensure permission is granted before approving a cache, F you. Shut up and enjoy the game. If you cannot enjoy the game, play something else.

 

Link to comment

Like others have said, he probably does not understand geocaching. Maybe if you went down with a copy of a postive geocaching story from a local paper (check the link on the front page of GC.com, there is bound to be something from close by) and showed him what you want to hide and where, he will be more receptive.

Or not.

I myself am the supervisor for a parks and recreation dept. Some areas in our parks system are for use by permit only, and some are for residents only. Some areas are closed to the public during school hours. I probably wouldn't want a cache in those places.

Other examples; I might be concerned about a cache placed in an area of a park that is often used as an outdoor classroom/activity area during the school year and a day camp during the summer, or at a field used exclusively for youth sports.

Edited by Mopar
Link to comment

... Try to do something good...my perspective has changed. Thanks for the input!

 

If one fella telling you no is enough to change your 'perspective', maybe you should consider whether it's your pride or your dedication to the handicapped cause that has you upset!

 

Anytime you get an answer like the one you posted you are presented with an opportunity to educate.

 

He obviously does not understand the game, or who plays it, or how it's played.

 

Write back and ask for a brief meeting at his office or a nearby restaraunt.

 

Take some geocaching literature - a listing page or two, the geocaching brochure, and some newspaper articles about geocaching.

 

Explain the family nature of the game. Tell him about geocacher's CITO ethic and maybe offer to host a CITO in the park or elsewhere in town.

 

Show him a geocache with typical content. Ammo cans can be intimidating - make it a Tupperware bread-keeper or similar see-through container. If he balks at a full-size cache show him a micro and explain that it would be totally unobtrusive.

 

Mention the 'frisbee rule' and how geocaching is no different - if folks can show up and play frisbee in the park they should be allowed to geocache.

 

Explain that geocachers could not be identified or differentiated from any other visitor to the park.

 

Explain the advantages of attracting folks to the park; that's part of his job, by the way, to increase use of the resources he's in charge of.

 

Finally, tell him that you will place the cache under his supervision, that you will be responsible for it, and ask him for a 3-month trial, after which if he's unhappy you will remove it or he can allow it to remain.

 

As far as working the handicapped angle, you might tell him that this cache would open geocaching to more of the handicapped, but don't over-play that plea. I am handicapped and can tell you opening access to the handicapped is not real high on a lot of property managers agenda. Besides, when an able-bodied person makes a plea based on access for the handicapped, his first thought will likely be that you are using the argument for your own ends.

 

Take that sort of friendly and informative approach and you will likely see a change of heart!

 

If that doesn't work, take your presentationm to the tourist bureau or chamber of commerce and explain the financial advantages of attracting folks to the town.

 

If that doesn't work bribe the mayor with an all-expense-paid trip to the next county hog show! :)

 

Ed

Link to comment

county hog show -yeeha:lol:

 

I ask for permission and I usually follow any restrictions the managers may have. (Haven't been turned down yet.) If someone said no then I'd probably look somewhere else. There must be other places nearby that would work. Doesn't sound like the whole township is off limits.

If you are determined to try again I would suggest to go down to the managers office and ask to talk to him face to face. Take a printout of the geocaching brochure at www.geocacher-u.com. (very family friendly looking). Explain to him how you wanted to try again to get his permission because you believe his park offers special opportunities for the handicapped to take part in this sport. Take your GPS and the cache container and contents with you and show him so he'll know exactly what you intend to hide.

Link to comment

Sorry folks, had some computer problems for a while there....

No, I did not kill geocaching in my area....if there are any out there, this dude is not gonna know.

As far as changing my perspective goes.....I was leaning towards the "beg forgiveness" idea.

But I know about liability.

I believe I did the right thing......following protocol.....by contacting the municipality.

Just wish they were'nt so close minded.

Thanks all for the input. Gonna sleep on it.

Link to comment

[

It seems like he has no clue what geocaching is about. One or two people looking for a cache every few days will not conflict with any "events".

 

I think Criminal's little essay from long ago on the subject of permission hits the nail right on the head in this instance:

 

Permission has reared its ugly head again and another new cacher has decided he/she has a better way of playing the game. I’ve started a new thread because I will cover this so thoroughly that it will appear, at times, to be off topic.

 

This is what I learned in the Air Force: There are two types of people in the AF (and the world in general). The first believes they can do nothing without explicit permission. They will not act unless they know factually that the act is an approved act. If they have the slightest doubt, they will find someone to ask for permission. The second type of person believes they can do anything unless they are aware of a prohibition specifically against the act. They see the lack of prohibition as implicit permission.

 

The difference between the two is all about freedom. Before I discuss freedom, let me first explain the severe danger of asking permission. People, in general terms, like to avoid conflict, they like their jobs and their lives to be as simple and trouble free as possible. They want routine. They don’t want some anal retentive worry wart to come along and start making demands for permission or authorization to do something they never heard of. So there you go, feeling warm and smug, asking Joe Flunky park employee if you can hide a geocache in a park over which he has some degree of authority. He’s never heard of it, can’t understand even the most eloquent explanation you offer, and will become annoyed. Why? Because you’ve just destroyed his whole sense of routine. Now he has to go find information about an activity he doesn’t comprehend. He knows that if he asks his boss, he’ll sound like a stuttering idiot trying to explain it. What will he do? He will deny your request, because that’s the easiest way to get back to his routine while exposing him to no risk. Before you asked, you had implicit permission at least, and deniability nonetheless. Now you have been specifically prohibited and have effectively given away some of your freedom. Unfortunately, there are any number of whiners and pantywastes who find it impossible to enjoy such a “rouge” game and try to change the game to suite them, instead of changing their own philosophy to agree with the game.

 

And that’s what it’s all about, freedom. I gave 20 years for it, some gave nothing, and others gave everything they could. You didn’t get your freedom from the constitution; rather, that document merely affirms your freedom. If you can’t understand the difference, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time or space here to educate you. Why do you obey laws? Really, ask yourself why you obey the laws? If your answer is, “to avoid punishment” you are not free. You are a slave to the law and slaves are not free. Ask me why I obey laws and I’ll tell you it’s because I believe in the limits imposed to ensure a civilized society. Now here’s the catch, I reserve the right to disobey any law at my whim. Don’t be shocked, because therein lies my freedom; I could break the law, but I have made the free will decision not to. I know how to pick locks, I am comfortable moving about in the dark without external lighting and can do so almost without making a sound, I have knowledge of how certain equipment works and how to circumvent its intent. I choose not to.

 

Sadly, freedom is an addictive drug. I will, without fail, fight tooth and nail against anyone who tries to take even the most miniscule portion of my freedom from me. It’s a very insidious disease. It never strike catastrophically, rather, it sneaks in a little at a time. I don’t and won’t ask permission unless I am aware of a prohibition. I refuse to surrender any of my freedom. Guess what? This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required. So to the person (now and later) who thinks geocaching.com should require a lengthy procedure to ensure permission is granted before approving a cache, F you. Shut up and enjoy the game. If you cannot enjoy the game, play something else.

 

 

<_<:wacko: WOW! I think I'm in love with this Criminal guy. I'll have to tell my husband dammit. <_<

Link to comment

That's why I posted, looking for advice and feedback. What really burns me up is that I specifically stated this cache was being placed so that physically challenged folks can enjoy the game. Try to do something good...my perspective has changed. Thanks for the input!

I recently got permission to place a cache on privately owned park. First I sold the land manager on geocaching, then sold him on me placing a cache on their land. Contact the gentleman who turned you down, and see if he'd go out caching with you. Offer to buy him lunch after two finds. Organize the local cachers to do a clean up day, or paint all the benches, or buy a new piece of playground equipment. Serve your way in.

Just a suggestion...

Link to comment

My advice? Hide your cache anyway. After it’s been there a year let the park guy know about it and point out how wrong he was. Really, if he finds out you hid the cache anyway, what’s he going to do? He might pull the cache- then you’re right back to where you are now. If the park doesn’t have a policy specifically prohibiting ‘geocaches’, than it’s an approved activity. Disapproved activities get listed on a sign near the park entrance, so look there first.

Link to comment

My advice? Hide your cache anyway. After it’s been there a year let the park guy know about it and point out how wrong he was. Really, if he finds out you hid the cache anyway, what’s he going to do? He might pull the cache- then you’re right back to where you are now. If the park doesn’t have a policy specifically prohibiting ‘geocaches’, than it’s an approved activity. Disapproved activities get listed on a sign near the park entrance, so look there first.

 

This is great advice. Parks are there for the recreational use of the public. Last time I checked Geocaching was a recreation. Just like any other recreational activity unless there is a law against or a ban on that specific activity then it is implied that that activity is allowed.

 

If a park has a soccer field it is only makes sense that you are allowed to play soccer there.

If a park has trails it only makes sense that you are allowed to hike there.

If a park can support a certain recreation it only makes sense that you are allowed to participate in that recreation there.

Link to comment

Great advice all around.

Here's the plan:

I'm going to meet with this "Recreation Supervisor" and edumicate him a little more on geocaching and recreation. And when I do get permission....and I will....I'm naming the cache after him.

 

But in the future....unless I know it's specifically prohibited....cache on.

 

Thanks everybody.

Link to comment

Great advice all around.

Here's the plan:

I'm going to meet with this "Recreation Supervisor" and edumicate him a little more on geocaching and recreation. And when I do get permission....and I will....I'm naming the cache after him.

 

But in the future....unless I know it's specifically prohibited....cache on.

 

Thanks everybody.

 

You might want to bring the Geocacher U brochure with you. Its helpful in explaining the sport. Also you can mention the estimated number of visitors a week. Look at similar caches in the area to get an idea.

 

You can also mention all the park systems that welcome and sometimes actively support geocaching as a low impact way of providing additonal recreational oppurtunites at minimal cost. Some that come to immediately to mind are PA State Parks, NY State Parks, Cleveland Metroparks, Arkansas State Parks and Delaware State Parks as starters.

Link to comment

... Try to do something good...my perspective has changed. Thanks for the input!

Anytime you get an answer like the one you posted you are presented with an opportunity to educate.

 

He obviously does not understand the game, or who plays it, or how it's played.

 

Write back and ask for a brief meeting at his office or a nearby restaraunt.

 

Take some geocaching literature - a listing page or two, the geocaching brochure, and some newspaper articles about geocaching.

 

Explain the family nature of the game. Tell him about geocacher's CITO ethic and maybe offer to host a CITO in the park or elsewhere in town.

 

Show him a geocache with typical content. Ammo cans can be intimidating - make it a Tupperware bread-keeper or similar see-through container. If he balks at a full-size cache show him a micro and explain that it would be totally unobtrusive.

 

Mention the 'frisbee rule' and how geocaching is no different - if folks can show up and play frisbee in the park they should be allowed to geocache.

 

Explain that geocachers could not be identified or differentiated from any other visitor to the park.

 

Explain the advantages of attracting folks to the park; that's part of his job, by the way, to increase use of the resources he's in charge of.

 

Finally, tell him that you will place the cache under his supervision, that you will be responsible for it, and ask him for a 3-month trial, after which if he's unhappy you will remove it or he can allow it to remain.

 

Take that sort of friendly and informative approach and you will likely see a change of heart!

 

Ed

This is pretty much the approach I took to hide a cache in one of our state parks here. Over the years, a number of caches had been hidden there using the "I pay taxes" theory, and, when the Park Manager found them, they were removed.

 

When I decided to give it a try, I took the approach that AR suggests, and the SAME Park Manager gave me permission within an hour.

 

You should remember, the Park Managers are responsible for the care, and condition of the park they manage. If the park goes sour, they have to answer for it. Work with him, and you will most likely win. Yes, we alll pay for the parks in our areas, but we're not the ones that have to explain what happened when things go bad.

 

Good luck.

Link to comment

The Parks and Recreation Director does not have final say, depending on which form of government your town runs under, it would be the Administrator/Manager who has final say on what goes on with township property, it could also possibly one of the sitting Council Members. If you really want this cache placed, go to the Administrator, explain geocaching to him, explain this would bring people to the recreational facilities of the town, explain heavily the aspect of it being handicapped accessible, and that you will be totally responsible for the cache. I work for my local town, the Recreation Director does not have final say, I would highly doubt this town is set up that way.

Link to comment

I'd say look up any geocaching groups you have in your area. Most seem to have pretty good grasp of advocacy and dealing with these types of managers.

 

I'd be willing to bet they would be happy to step in and help, whether it's dealing directly with the person, giving you some references for nearby managers who have positive policies, or just providing some helpful advice.

 

Don't go it alone, call in some help. Everybody will benefit.

Link to comment

Just to add my consensus to a couple of other opinions posted.

 

Yes, face to face would have been much better than email.

 

Yes, from reading his email, this guy is completely clueless about what you are talking about at this point in time.

 

I would have never asked for permission in the first place; Town Park, public land, with no existing geocaching policy frisbee rule applies, in my opinion.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...