Disabling Travel Bug Prisons (Hotels)

1.5k · October 11, 2006

TB's are meant to travel and cache owners who keep them hostage by making these rules of trade only or leave xxx number in the cache are going against what a TB's rules/guidelines are. It seems to be that this should not be allowed and that these caches should be disabled until the owners remove these restrictions from their cache(s).

This type of cache is just setting new cachers (and some not so new) up for confusion and enforcing wrong behavior for travel bugs.

5.2k · October 11, 2006

I'm currently traveling across the US in my RV and I frequently run across TB hotels and "prisons." If I see a TB I want to move, some silly requirement set by the cache owner certainly isn't going to stop me. There's really nothing he can do to enforce his will upon me, so I just ignore his silly restrictions.

Maybe if everyone ignores the stupid restrictions, they'll go away

1.1k · October 11, 2006

I think the travel bug prisons should stay for those who want them to stay....but on the flipside, if I find a bug that I want to move and I can fulfill part of its goal then I will take it....even if I have nothing to leave.

2.6k · October 11, 2006

The lovely Hula Bum brings up an interesting point. If TPTB shuts down caches for violating other guidelines (moving caches, logging pocket caches, etc) and locks virtual TB's and coins, why not shut down TB prisons? Sounds good to me. After all, if a hotel needs to force people to stay there, must not be much of a hotel.

1.5k · October 11, 2006

I'm just seeing a lot of confusion among newbies in regards to travel bugs and I don't think this (prison) is helping.

It seems to me that TPTB shouldn't be picking and choosing what rules they enforce, or maybe they don't even realize this is an issue.

24.7k · October 11, 2006

There is nothing wrong with travel bug hotels, rules, regs and provisions. It's widely recognized that the travel bug's goals win out over travel bug hotel rules. However if you are in a position to honor the travel bug hotel rules while keeping with the travel bugs goals there is no reason not to do so. There is no reason to go out of your way to insulte the cache owner by being a thorn. Trading bugs just because you can doesn't make you a better travel bug finder. Helping them with their goals does.

Personally I don't like ALR's or Trade Rules for Travel Bug Hotels, but I'm not going to smack down the cache owner over it. Instead I'll not place those kinds of caches and not do them if the rules are too much of a PITA.

As this RASH grows there are a lot of things to learn. Geocoins, Good hides, Travel Bug's vs. Hotels etc. It's part of what all experienced cachers need to teach when the question comes up.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Renegade Knight

24.7k · October 11, 2006

Double Post.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Renegade Knight

5.2k · October 11, 2006

It seems to me that TPTB shouldn't be picking and choosing what rules they enforce,

Please point out the rule or guideline that you think prohibits TB prisons.

October 11, 2006

It seems to me that TPTB shouldn't be picking and choosing what rules they enforce,

Please point out the rule or guideline that you think prohibits TB prisons.

I think Hula might be referring to something like this (from the TB Faq page):

Is there any Travel Bug etiquette?

Use the Golden Rule when you find a Travel Bug. Most owners would rather see their travel bugs do a lot of travelling, so try not to hold on to a travel bug for too long. If you plan on holding onto the bug for more than 2 weeks, make sure to send a courtesy email to the owner letting them know.

My take is that TBs are meant to travel (hence the "Travel" part of "Travel Bug") and that these prisons are basically preventing them from travelling. This is contrary to the intent TBs in general.

October 11, 2006

It seems to me that TPTB shouldn't be picking and choosing what rules they enforce,

Please point out the rule or guideline that you think prohibits TB prisons.

I think Hula might be referring to something like this (from the TB Faq page):

Is there any Travel Bug etiquette?

Use the Golden Rule when you find a Travel Bug. Most owners would rather see their travel bugs do a lot of travelling, so try not to hold on to a travel bug for too long. If you plan on holding onto the bug for more than 2 weeks, make sure to send a courtesy email to the owner letting them know.

My take is that TBs are meant to travel (hence the "Travel" part of "Travel Bug") and that these prisons are basically preventing them from travelling. This is contrary to the intent TBs in general.

Not defending TB Hotels (Prisons) by any stretch here... but by this logic shouldn't we disable any cache that a TB sits in for an extended period of time?

I had a TB sit in a cache for about 7 months before I asked the cache owner to move it for me. Which he gladly did. It wasn't the cache owner holding onto the bug for an extended period of time, it's simply that the bug didn't move. The same can be said about TB Hotels (Prisons), it isn't the cache owner holding onto the bug, it's just the nature of the game. If the cache is visited frequently the bugs are more likely to move even with restrictions, if the cache is visited infrequently the bugs are less likely to move.

1.5k · October 11, 2006

Yes, I should stop using the word "rules" as it seems that is not an acceptable term in geocaching. "Intent" is an excellent term, and as stated before the name is "travel bug" NOT "trade bug".

As for the cache owners that have prisons, I could really care less if I'm a thorn in their side, I care a whole lot more about the owners of the bugs that have their TB's sitting stuck in these caches.

If there isn't a RULE AGAINST these types of caches I think there should be, how's that? Oh wait, I said the "R" word again.........

2.7k · October 11, 2006

It seems to me that TPTB shouldn't be picking and choosing what rules they enforce,

Please point out the rule or guideline that you think prohibits TB prisons.

I think Hula might be referring to something like this (from the TB Faq page):

Is there any Travel Bug etiquette?

Use the Golden Rule when you find a Travel Bug. Most owners would rather see their travel bugs do a lot of travelling, so try not to hold on to a travel bug for too long. If you plan on holding onto the bug for more than 2 weeks, make sure to send a courtesy email to the owner letting them know.

My take is that TBs are meant to travel (hence the "Travel" part of "Travel Bug") and that these prisons are basically preventing them from travelling. This is contrary to the intent TBs in general.

Not defending TB Hotels (Prisons) by any stretch here... but by this logic shouldn't we disable any cache that a TB sits in for an extended period of time?

If it is a requirement that is keeping the TB there, then YES, the cache should be canned. Otherwise, is just a low traffic cache or cachers haven't been interested in moving the TB. That is far different from a cache owner laying down stupid rules.

1.5k · October 11, 2006

If a TB is just sitting in a cache because nobody wants it or it hasn't been found that is entirely different, so no, of course not, those caches should not be disabled.

I am strictly talking about caches that the owners are trying to control the bugs that don't belong to them.

1.5k · October 11, 2006

The same can be said about TB Hotels (Prisons), it isn't the cache owner holding onto the bug, it's just the nature of the game.

But, it is the cache owner holding onto the bug if they have rules stating that there must be x amount of bugs or you must trade 1 for 1. I don't see this as the nature of the game at all, just the nature of a controlling cache owner.

October 11, 2006

...I am strictly talking about caches that the owners are trying to control the bugs that don't belong to them.

A cache owner cannot control the trading of travel-bugs. Just because a cache page states some silly TB rule doesn't obligate anyone to actually follow it. What we need isn't to disable folks caches; instead, we need to better educate the folks who create and find them. People should be able to place as many silly TB rules as they want, it is up to the individual geocacher to decide whether or not they will choose to follow them. If the majority of cachers realize that a TBs goal supercedes any specific cache rules then there really shouldn't be any problem. I believe educating cachers will prove far more successful (and far less divisive) than disabling caches.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT a fan of TB prisons. I simply believe there are better ways of dealing with this admittedly frustrating issue than to disable caches.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Team Snorkasaurus

3.5k · October 11, 2006

Can the OP please post an example of what they consider a "prison" for travel bugs?

We have several caches that have "travel bug hotel" in their names in the Dallas area and they come in handy for moving travel bugs. I don't see any similarity to prisons with these caches.

22k · October 11, 2006

Just because a cache page states some silly TB rule doesn't obligate anyone to actually follow it.

Yes, but how many people know that? Certainly not the cache owner who is in a position to place restrictions beyond the control of the bug owner.

Some people set a cache rule, other people refute it. One person stated they will delete your find if you do not follow their bug logging rule. They were fought and the restriction was removed. No one was banned or had their cache archived. So far gc.com has allowed us to use peer pressure and what I hope is reasoning to remove such restrictions.

I'm going to use whatever resources I have to educate the bug finders, and to place pressure on those who think they have a right to restrict travel on bugs. Both take effort, but at this time I would have to say that it is more effective to address the cache owners.

9.2k · October 11, 2006

There's nothing wrong with having a "if you take one, you have to leave one" rule. It's not much different from the trading rule for regular caches. In fact, there's a name for TB Hotels that don't have a rule of this type...

"Empty"

9.4k · October 11, 2006

This isn't really a feature request dealie, so I'm moving it to General.

October 11, 2006

TB's are meant to travel and cache owners who keep them hostage by making these rules of trade only or leave xxx number in the cache are going against what a TB's rules/guidelines are. It seems to be that this should not be allowed and that these caches should be disabled until the owners remove these restrictions from their cache(s).

This type of cache is just setting new cachers (and some not so new) up for confusion and enforcing wrong behavior for travel bugs.

You keep refering to these as prisons, but you have yet to show that a travel bug, on avergage, spends more time before moving along in the TB hotel (with or without 1 for 1 trading rules) than in any other nearby cache.

Until you do this I am unclear on why I or anyone else should desire to support your crusade. We now even have public bookmarks showing up on cache owner's pages labelling their caches TB prisons. Mature. Just the kind of group I want to sign up with.

Get some facts to back up your rants please.

22k · October 11, 2006

There's nothing wrong with having a "if you take one, you have to leave one" rule. It's not much different from the trading rule for regular caches. In fact, there's a name for TB Hotels that don't have a rule of this type...

"Empty"

I have no problem, whatsoever, of any kind, to see an empty Hostel, unless of course it's just been muggled with several hostages in it.

As for this trade rule, I thought it was trade even, trade up or don't trade at all. Not take one, leave one.

That’s an ill phrase, a vile phrase.

22k · October 11, 2006

You keep refering to these as prisons, but you have yet to show that a travel bug, on avergage, spends more time before moving along in the TB hotel (with or without 1 for 1 trading rules) than in any other nearby cache.

Until you do this I am unclear on why I or anyone else should desire to support your crusade. We now even have public bookmarks showing up on cache owner's pages labelling their caches TB prisons. Mature. Just the kind of group I want to sign up with.

Get some facts to back up your rants please.

Main Entry: 1pris·on

Pronunciation: 'pri-z&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin prehension-, prehensio act of seizing, from prehendere to seize -- more at GET

1 : a state of confinement or captivity

2 : a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers;

Main Entry: hos·tage

Pronunciation: 'häs-tij

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from hoste

1 a : a person held by one party in a conflict as a pledge pending the fulfillment of an agreement b : a person taken by force to secure the taker's demands

2 : one that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence

1.6k · October 12, 2006

If I see a bug I can help, I take it along for the ride. Screw your stupid "rulz" If they want to delete my smiley, I could care less.

9.3k · October 12, 2006

Can the OP please post an example of what they consider a "prison" for travel bugs?

You won't get a clear definition. The phrase "TB Prison" is a term some cachers utilize to insult TB Hotel cache owners who post a 1 to 1 trading rule. Some over sensitive cachers are getting bent out of shape over a perceived "rule" being forced upon them by a cache owner, yet these same anarchistic cachers wish Groundspeak to create a "rule" preventing that "rule". How very sad. Ironically, these so called "prisons" seem to garnish the most TB traffic. How very odd.

I wonder, If I were to include the phrase, "Trade Up, trade even or don't trade", on my regular caches, would they be labeled as Swag Prisons?

10.1k · October 12, 2006

If a TB is just sitting in a cache because nobody wants it or it hasn't been found that is entirely different, so no, of course not, those caches should not be disabled.

I am strictly talking about caches that the owners are trying to control the bugs that don't belong to them.

I fail to see the difference! I'll agree with BRTango. A tough cache also prevents bugs from moving. Archive them too! Obviously, from your perspective, caches only exist to help TBs to move. :unsure:

Hey! If we archive all TB Motels, just think of all the TBs that are in the caches when they get archived that will never be seen again! Stupendous idea. :unsure:

8.4k · October 12, 2006

All of my TB hotels say something like:

There's no rules at my TB caches. Trade bugs, take bugs, leave bugs, or just use the "discovered it" option..... It's all kosher. Bugs are meant to TRAVEL after all, not sit in caches.

Currently there are 437 GOOD TB hotels on Criminal's list.

I don't have a link to Criminal's TB prison list.... Anyone?

22k · October 12, 2006

Can the OP please post an example of what they consider a "prison" for travel bugs?

You won't get a clear definition. The phrase "TB Prison" is a term some cachers utilize to insult TB Hotel cache owners who post a 1 to 1 trading rule.

I wonder, If I were to include the phrase, "Trade Up, trade even or don't trade", on my regular caches, would they be labeled as Swag Prisons?

And cut.

Ok, do we need to clarify the difference between travelers and trade items? I'll be happy to explain it.

1.5k · October 12, 2006

Ok, I didn't feel like going through the pages of hotels with rules, but I went through some and here are a few results. Very true, some "prisons" have a good open door and the bugs move through nicely, others on the other hand......

GCRTV1

9 Bugs total

7 of 9 have been in there longer than 5 wks

one has been there since june and two since july

last visit to this cache on 9/26

GCNX7W

8 bugs total

5 of 8 been there >4 wks

two have been there since may

last visit 9/28

GCK2G8

8 bugs total

3 of the 8 have been there more than 3 months

last visit 10/9

GCKGGB

6 bugs total

2 or the 6 been there >5 weeks

1 has been there since june

last visit 10/1

GCTMHZ

11 bugs total

8 of 11 >5 wks and 4 of them have been there more than 2 months

2 have been there since may

last visit 10/8

And as far as being an "anarchist"......... I don't see how you, or anyone else has any right to impose rules on TB's that do NOT belong to you. I'm talking about a rule to PROTECT and help MOVE Travel Bugs and. After all, we bought the tags with goal of having them move (note the word travel in their name) and people who put these restrictions are hampering that.

It is very true that these "hotels" get hit often, however bugs also get stuck in them, sometimes for months because of these "trade" rules.

1.5k · October 12, 2006

That's just it, people are not getting that they are NOT trade items, they were never designed to be. I'm not saying something new, or changing what a TB is all about, why is this so confusing?

22k · October 12, 2006

Best TB Post Ever.

"If a travel bug hotel is in a good spot for the quick and easy exchange of travel bugs, then an empty hotel won't stay empty long. People are always looking for a convenient place to drop bugs off. The owner of a well-placed hotel should actually be pleased if the hotel is occasionally empty, since it shows that the hotel is serving its purpose: to get bugs moving quickly. And if a hotel does stay empty for long periods of time without the cache owner continually raiding other caches to re-stock it, then it's not a good place for a travel bug hotel." - The Hermit Crabs, Dec 2 2005

Edited October 12, 2006 by BlueDeuce

October 12, 2006

I don't have a link to Criminal's TB prison list.... Anyone?

Here ya go

1.5k · October 12, 2006

Good quote Blue Deuce.

I want to add that I am all for good TB Hotels that are safe and easy to get to and free of restrictions.

3.3k · October 12, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy Irish: "It's a silly rule. Travel bugs are meant to travel. Adding a restriction like trading them out doesn't make sense."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy Irish: "The idea is to help move the Travel Bug faster. Artifical rules just make the bugs sit in a cache for far too long. Remember folks - the first part of Travel Bug is Travel - not Trade."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the travel bug prisons should stay for those who want them to stay....but on the flipside, if I find a bug that I want to move and I can fulfill part of its goal then I will take it....even if I have nothing to leave.

The only people that like the rules, are the controlling, cache owners, not the TB owners.

You keep refering to these as prisons, but you have yet to show that a travel bug, on avergage, spends more time before moving along in the TB hotel (with or without 1 for 1 trading rules) than in any other nearby cache.

Until you do this I am unclear on why I or anyone else should desire to support your crusade. We now even have public bookmarks showing up on cache owner's pages labelling their caches TB prisons. Mature. Just the kind of group I want to sign up with.

Get some facts to back up your rants please.

Here is a large number of TB Prisons.

22k · October 12, 2006

Good quote Blue Deuce.

I want to add that I am all for good TB Hotels that are safe and easy to get to and free of restrictions.

Absolutely.

Peace, love and Bobby Sherman

Restrictions? I find it amusing that people are defending the right. How about we remove them and let's see who it hurts.

8.4k · October 12, 2006

I don't have a link to Criminal's TB prison list.... Anyone?

Here ya go

Notice that list is less than HALF the number of the GOOD TB Hotel list...... :unsure:

Edited October 12, 2006 by Snoogans

22k · October 12, 2006

I don't have a link to Criminal's TB prison list.... Anyone?

Here ya go

Notice that list is less than HALF the number of the GOOD TB Hotel list......

And personally I wouldn't recommend a hotel for that list just because it has no trade restrictions. It has to be a good place to drop a bug. Fortunately there are plenty out there.

9.3k · October 12, 2006

I don't see how you, or anyone else has any right to impose rules on TB's that do NOT belong to you.

So, uh... Which TB am I imposing a rule on?

Do we need to clarify the difference between travelers and trade items? I'll be happy to explain it.

I'm sure you would. For those few not bright enough to realize it, my comparison was an analogy. Yeah, I know, four syllables. Look it up. Groundspeak has not imposed a "rule" on swag. In several places, including the guidelines, Groundspeak states words to the effect of, "take something/leave something", but that phrase is always worded as a suggestion, not a rule. A low life could find a cache, remove everything from it, and saunter off fat & happy, without violating a single rule. True, he'd probably get lynched at some point in the near future, but he wouldn't be breaking a rule. Are we clear yet? Good.

Some cache owners have taken the liberty of including the phrase, "Trade Up, Trade Even or Don't Trade", on their cache pages, referring to swag. Since it's not worded as a request, but rather as an order, this is another "rule" some silly cache owner is trying to impose on you. Are you going to revolt? Will there be a call to arms? How dare they try to force their "rulz" on you! :unsure:

Do you see the similarity yet? No? Don't worry, you probably never will. It's OK. Really.

1.5k · October 12, 2006

You are imposing a rule on any bug that is in your prison, that's pretty simple.

Is insulting people's intelligence really necessary? Whomever it was directed at it is not necessary.

And no, I don't see the similarity, TB's do NOT belong to the cache owner (with the exception of ones that they may have put in there obviously.) Swag ownership (for the person putting it in) is given up when you put it in a cache, COMPLETELY different. Technically the swag becomes property of the cache owner, unlike TB's who have only 1 owner regardless of where they go or end up.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Hula Bum

9.3k · October 12, 2006

You are imposing a rule on any bug that is in your prison, that's pretty simple.

By now I'm assuming you've checked my profile. You seem like the type that needs to do so. How many prisons do I own?

TB's do NOT belong to the cache owner. Swag ownership is given up when you put it in a cache, COMPLETELY different

Uh, OK. Got it. I think... The cache owner does not own the TB's or the swag. Got it. Yet you insist that's COMPLETELY different? You lost me there.

22k · October 12, 2006

I don't see how you, or anyone else has any right to impose rules on TB's that do NOT belong to you.

So, uh... Which TB am I imposing a rule on?

Do we need to clarify the difference between travelers and trade items? I'll be happy to explain it.

I'm sure you would. For those few not bright enough to realize it, my comparison was an analogy. Yeah, I know, four syllables. Look it up. Groundspeak has not imposed a "rule" on swag. In several places, including the guidelines, Groundspeak states words to the effect of, "take something/leave something", but that phrase is always worded as a suggestion, not a rule. A low life could find a cache, remove everything from it, and saunter off fat & happy, without violating a single rule. True, he'd probably get lynched at some point in the near future, but he wouldn't be breaking a rule. Are we clear yet? Good.

Some cache owners have taken the liberty of including the phrase, "Trade Up, Trade Even or Don't Trade", on their cache pages, referring to swag. Since it's not worded as a request, but rather as an order, this is another "rule" some silly cache owner is trying to impose on you. Are you going to revolt? Will there be a call to arms? How dare they try to force their "rulz" on you!

Do you see the similarity yet? No? Don't worry, you probably never will. It's OK. Really.

Don't pretend that trade items fall under the same category as travel bugs and we won't have a problem.

1.5k · October 12, 2006

Ok, I edited my above post to try and clarify what I thought was clear......swag vs tb ownership.

As for the use of "you", I was referring to anyone with a TB Hostage Hotel, not you personally. I never felt the need to look and check your profile as this was not something personal to you, sorry if it came off like I was talking about "you" specifically.

1.5k · October 12, 2006

Ok, so another question, do people really believe that they are the same (tb's and swag) or do they just like to ummm, how do I say it without getting a time out?

October 12, 2006

We don't really do the TB thing enough to weigh in on this subject, although we've visited a few of the TB Hotels on "The Good List" and enjoyed them (haven't yet encountered a "prison").

Suggestion: Couldn't TB owners simply ask cachers not to place the bug in caches with TB trading rules? I've seen similar requests on Geocoin pages. True, it's still a made up rule that cachers can disregard... but at least its coming from the owner of the bug....

Just my

22k · October 12, 2006

We don't really do the TB thing enough to weigh in on this subject, although we've visited a few of the TB Hotels on "The Good List" and enjoyed them (haven't yet encountered a "prison").

Suggestion: Couldn't TB owners simply ask cachers not to place the bug in caches with TB trading rules? I've seen similar requests on Geocoin pages. True, it's still a made up rule that cachers can disregard... but at least its coming from the owner of the bug....

Just my

Yes, some do. Only because.

edit: It would help if I could spell.

Edited October 12, 2006 by BlueDeuce

1.5k · October 12, 2006

They can, but it seems people can't always read. I had 3 bugs show up at our event this summer that had big ole dark letters on the tag saying "DO NOT TAKE ME TO AN EVENT". I grabbed them out immediately and made sure they got placed into caches, but they were there none the less.

It's just a bummer when bugs sit in a cache for months and continue to get passed by, even though the cache is being visited, because of some trade rule.

5.9k · October 12, 2006

My advice? Declare Friday International Rape a TB Prison Dry Day. If you know of one, remove ALL the TB’s and set them free.

October 12, 2006

There's nothing wrong with having a "if you take one, you have to leave one" rule. It's not much different from the trading rule for regular caches. In fact, there's a name for TB Hotels that don't have a rule of this type...

"Empty"

What exactly is wrong with an "Empty" TB Hotel?

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...10-d5aae19ced75

I'm perfectly fine with it's occasional "Empty" status.

By the way trading rules DO NOT apply to travel bugs. You will never convince me that they do.

22k · October 12, 2006

It's just a bummer when bugs sit in a cache for months and continue to get passed by, even though the cache is being visited, because of some trade rule.

I thought we were suppose to be discussing archiving caches with TB trade restrictions.

I'll get it back on track.

You're wrong!

:unsure:

1.5k · October 12, 2006

What am I wrong about? (Ok, lots of things, but in this instance?!)

10.2k · October 12, 2006

My advice? Declare Friday International Rape a TB Prison Dry Day. If you know of one, remove ALL the TB’s and set them free.

This Friday? Friday the 13th of October?

Disabling Travel Bug Prisons (Hotels)

Recommended Posts