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trackinthebox
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Greetings All,

 

I have just started Geocaching in my area and found placing a cache can be quite a hassle.

 

First of all, the park I placed my cache at has 11 caches in it so I figured that it wouldn't be a problem. I researched the area for several days on geocaching.com before I even considered placing it there.

 

So I buy my ammo can, all the goodies for contents and traipse out into the woods to place.

 

Found an awesome location, placed my cache and logged my location in the GPS! I was psyched! Even had an awesome hint figured out to go along with the location.

 

So I traipse back out of the woods and rush home to report my cache for listing.

 

Anticipation......

 

Next day I check the site and find that my cache has been archived by the reviewer!

 

What went wrong?

 

I'm told by the reviewer, "Your cache is located in the Delaware Water Gap National Rec. Area. This area is run by the NPS which has a no caching policy. As such, I can no publish your cache and I request that you pick it up as not to leave any geolitter."

 

Mind you, I researched this area for DAYS and found 11 caches in the park BEFORE I placed it. There could be more that I missed.

 

So, I do what any freedom loving citizen would do. I resubmit the cache and explain that caching is allowed as there are 11 caches in this park already.

 

Unfortunately, once again, the cache is denied and I am told I have to get permission to excercise my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

I was told, "First off, if your cache is archive by a reviewer, the polite thing to do is to send them an e-mail explaining that they might have made a mistake and why, including the GC number and name of the cache.

The caches you gave me is a great list. All of those in NJ have specific permission from the NJ parks people for that area. That list doesn't help your case all that much as the guidelines state:

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

So if you'd like to get permission from the parks to place the cache, I would be happy to list it. I would need the name and contact info of whomever gave you permission posted in a log when you re-enable this page.

 

If you have any questions, please post them as a reviewer note as I've put this cache on my watch list."

 

I was being rude? I wasn't the one who immediately archived my very first cache listing, it was the reviewer who told me a blanket ban was in effect in this park when it most certainly wasn't.

 

Out of the 11 caches in this park, only 2 list they were placed with permission and yet the reviewer states they ALL have permission.

 

Then the standard disclaimer gobbledygook........

 

Anyone would be getting a bid hot under the collar at this point.

 

Anyways, I DO AS I'M TOLD, I fire off an email to the NPS for permission to place my cache.

 

Well, it's been 5 days and no response so I traipse back out into the woods and get my cache as I want to get one listed with less pain.

 

I am planning on placing it on State Game Lands as once again, after many days of research, I see that no permission is required.

 

I think I am going to submit the approx cache coords BEFORE I actually place it before I waste another good hike on NOTHING.

 

If this reviewer continues to hassle my cache locations when other caches were placed on the same lands without permission I am not going to keep quiet about this bias.

 

Hey, call me crazy, but I am of the opinion of "Criminal" a geocacher that feels the same way I do about this kind of thing from reading his posts.

 

Lack of a ban is permission.

 

Call me crazy again but I also believe the following quote from one of the men who established this country.

 

"A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson

Edited by trackinthebox
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Hi, I'm not sure if you are talking about NJ or PA here, but there are a number of caches at the water gap that are in Worthington State Forest and in Stokes State Forest. These caches are not in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, but it might appear as such as these state forests are adjacent to the national recreation area. Worthington State Forest runs along the Appalachain Trail from the water gap up past Sunfish Pond and ends just above Upper Yards Creek reservoir. North of that area you are in the national recreation area. Then Stokes SF comes in a number of miles further north (sorry, I don't have my maps handy).

 

Of course if you are talking about PA, then I have no idea :rolleyes:

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Greetings All,

 

<blah blah blah>

Hey, call me crazy, but I am of the opinion of "Criminal" a geocacher that feels the same way I do about this kind of thing from reading his posts.

 

Lack of a ban is permission.

 

Call me crazy again but I also believe the following quote from one of the men who established this country.

 

"A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson

Well, if you believe lack of ban is permission, I would assume you believe the opposite is true (if there is a ban then you are not permitted)?

Hello, NPS has had a blanket ban on geocaches since 2001. This is mentioned in the guidelines for hiding a cache (you know, that thing you had to check off that you read and understood before you could submit your cache).

There have been a few (rare) cases where a friendly head ranger has give permission despite the ban. Also, like the post above mentions, the specific park you mention is actually several parks; each with their own rules, regulations, and jurisdictions.

 

Last, I love ol' Tom Jefferson more then most, but it doesn't apply here. You are using a private website. You are essentially a guest in Groundspeak's home. You have no freedom of speech. You have no rights. The owners of the site make the rules here.

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I'm not aware of any caches in the DWNRA in NJ. I looked when I went backpacking there last summer and couuldnt find a one.. As Trowel mentioned Worthington State Forest and Stokes State Forest abut the NRA and there are caches there. Its probable that the caches you see are in one of the state forests.

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I'd rather not name the caches in NJ as it's not my home state but they are indeed in Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area.

 

I didn't post to bring heat on the caches of others, only to point out bias against mine.

 

The PA side has a cache at one of the biggest NPS gathering places in the park without permission. I'd rather not point that one out by name either as I would like to log the find.

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Well, if you believe lack of ban is permission, I would assume you believe the opposite is true (if there is a ban then you are not permitted)?

Hello, NPS has had a blanket ban on geocaches since 2001. This is mentioned in the guidelines for hiding a cache (you know, that thing you had to check off that you read and understood before you could submit your cache).

There have been a few (rare) cases where a friendly head ranger has give permission despite the ban. Also, like the post above mentions, the specific park you mention is actually several parks; each with their own rules, regulations, and jurisdictions.

 

http://www.geocachingpolicy.org/

 

"For instance, "everyone knows" that geocaching is prohibited in lands managed by the United States National Park Service (NPS), but a search of the NPS website reveals only a few documents that match the string "geocaching". Each of those documents applies to a single NPS facility. A Google search finds more results, and some of the documents found in that search imply that limited geocaching is permitted in certain NPS facilities. The draft of the 2006 NPS Management Policies contains no references to geocaching. So in spite of conventional wisdom, there does not appear to be single policy for the US National Park Service. These are examples of the difficulties this website attempts to address."

 

It's an urban legend that geocaching is prohibited on NPS property. Lets see that law.

 

Mind you now, it wont be found as it doesn't exist.

 

Last, I love ol' Tom Jefferson more then most, but it doesn't apply here. You are using a private website. You are essentially a guest in Groundspeak's home. You have no freedom of speech. You have no rights. The owners of the site make the rules here.

 

And all men are created equal. If rules apply to one in any forum, they apply to all equally. Discrimination subjects oneself to libel in public or private.

Edited by trackinthebox
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You are absolutely correct!

There is no law that prohibits Geocaching in Nat'l Park Lands...

 

The law they get you on is one that covers Geocaching and a number of other activities...

It reads kind of like...

"no one shall leave anything of any value (any value includes no value) unattended on any lands governed by the NPS"...

 

It's basically a "no littering" law that the NPS also uses to keep geocaches out...

BTW... virtual caches ARE allowed...

 

Story I got from a reviewer is that the NPS contacted Groundspeak and told them they will search out cache owners and prosecute (at like a $1000 fine per instance),

The prohibition protects YOU!

AND it is in the Groundspeak Guidelines...

 

Groundspeak is not approving and is cooperating in the hopes that the NPS will come to their senses about Geocachers and eventually allow us in...

It worked in NY State with the state lands...

We are now alloowed to place caches on NY State Park Land (i.e. Catskill & Adirondack Parks)...

after a number of years of being prohibited...

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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1. There are no physical geocaches within several miles of your cache submission. So, I'm not sure where you get the "lots of caches in the same park" assertion. The nearest caches are virtuals, which were listed back when virtual caches were allowed, prior to Waymarking.

 

2. I once published two caches in Delaware Water Gap NRA, after the hider (an experienced geocacher) said they had received permission from the Ranger on-site. A few months later, once the higher-ups at headquarters became aware of the caches, the caches were removed and the owner received a very nasty letter.

 

3. Since that episode, I have not published any new caches in that NRA, even if a low-level NPS employee says it's ok. For the cache owner's protection as well as GC.com's, I would insist on written permission from someone at the management level. It looks like OReviewer acted quite consistently with what other reviewers have done in the same situation.

 

4. I can provide lots of similar examples from other National Parks and National Recreation Areas. The NPS ban is very real, no matter how loud you shout otherwise.

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You are absolutely correct!

There is no law that prohibits Geocaching in Nat'l Park Lands...

 

The law they get you on is one that covers Geocaching and a number of other activities...

It reads kind of like...

"no one shall leave anything of any value (any value includes no value) unattended on any lands governed by the NPS"...

 

It's basically a "no littering" law that the NPS also uses to keep geocaches out...

BTW... virtual caches ARE allowed...

 

Story I got from a reviewer is that the NPS contacted Groundspeak and told them they will search out cache owners and prosecute...

 

Groundspeak is not approving and is cooperating in the hopes that the NPS will come to their senses about Geocachers and eventually allow us in...

It worked in NY State with the state lands...

We are now alloowed to place caches on NY State Park Land...

after a number of years of being prohibited...

 

The park I live near doesn't care as caches are all over it with and without permission.

 

The reviewer is enforcing a law that doesn't exist thereby subjecting ME to a non existant law. THAT is illegal as no private citizen can make or enforce laws.

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The reviewer is enforcing a law that doesn't exist thereby subjecting ME to a non existant law. THAT is illegal as no private citizen can make or enforce laws.

Yikes. I'm gonna get arrested.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Hopefully I can share a jail cell with MissPlaced, rather than OReviewer.

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If it's NPS... then it is a NONO...

end of story and no amount of complaining is going to change that...

 

Just what NPS Park are you referring to anyway???

The Water Gap?

If you are talking aboiut the ones around the Gap... they are in Worthington State Park...

Which BORDERS on the NPS WA... The NPS area is along the river around the Gap...

Go HERE to see a good map of where the NPSRA is in relation to Worthington SP...

 

what caches?

I'd like to see them for myself...

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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If it's NPS... then it is a NONO...

end of story and no amount of complaining is going to change that...

 

Just what NPS Park are you referring to anyway???

and what caches?

I'd like to see them for myself...

 

Once again, show me the law.

 

The ACTUAL law.

 

You know, the USC or the CFR with the cute little § symbol.........

Edited by trackinthebox
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The land in question is the Delaware Water Gap NRA, which is managed by the National Park Service. The nearest caches to the OP's archived cache are:

 

Cactus Cliffs, a virtual cache, 1.5 miles to the Northeast.

Marie Zimmerman Stone House, a virtual cache, 2.4 miles to the south.

Shades of the Past, a virtual cache, 2.8 miles to the southwest.

 

Those are the facts.

 

I sent you a PM with the NON Virtual caches located in this park.

 

It doesn't matter anyway as I retreived the cache today and intend to place it on State Game Lands which I understand from researching, needs no permission.

Edited by trackinthebox
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Once again, show me the law.

 

The ACTUAL law.

 

You know, the USC or the CFR with the cute little § symbol.........

 

I think I mentioned it's a littering law that they use to enforce no geocaches...

 

Now, if you don't believe there is a no littering law in a NPS area...

walk up to a ranger and dump a full garbage can at his feet and try to get in your car and leave...

cause I'm not going to waste my time looking it up...

but I'm sure I could find it with a little creative Googling...

or do the garbage can thing...

I'm sure the rangers would gladly produce the law written for you...

at least they will at your court hearing...

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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Once again, show me the law.

 

The ACTUAL law.

 

You know, the USC or the CFR with the cute little § symbol.........

 

I think I mentioned it's a littering law that they use to enforce no geocaches...

 

Now, if you don't believe there is a no littering law in a NPS area...

walk up to a ranger and dump a full garbage can at his feet and try to get in your car and leave...

cause I'm not going to waste my time looking it up...

but I'm sure I could find it with a little creative Googling...

 

Easily crushed in court by a skilled attorney such as mine................

 

BUT..................once again, they don't care in THIS park.

Edited by trackinthebox
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I sent you a PM with the NON Virtual caches located in this park.

 

It doesn't matter anyway as I retreived the cache today and intend to place it on State Game Lands which I understand from researching, needs no permission.

I looked at the first five or so caches on your list. Most of them were miles away, in New Jersey. The first two I looked at were in the NRA, but with permission expressly stated. The third was in a NJ State Forest. All the ones I looked at took great care to talk about land management/ownership and what permission was obtained. If you did the research and legwork like those cache owners did, perhaps your cache could be published too. In NPS managed land, it is not a matter of hiking into the woods and plunking down an ammo box.

 

If there were any caches on your list which happened to slip through the NPS ban, then they are nevertheless covered under the "no cache is precedent for any others" clause in the listing guidelines.

 

Have fun hiding your cache on the PA Game Lands. Please be sure to mention the applicable regulations on your cache page, as we are now in hunting season. The PA Reviewers look for an express mention of the fact that the cache is on State Game Lands, and that even non-hunters ought to be wearing blaze orange. At least 150 square inches of blaze orange is required to be worn on the head and body, even by non-hunters, when on Game Lands during the peak hunting season, November 15 to December 15, except on Sundays. And it's a good idea the rest of the year, too! :rolleyes:

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Peconic Bay Sailors has every right to participate in this public forum thread, and is offering relevant posts. If you wish to talk only to Geocaching.com, please appeal the archival of your cache to the contact@geocaching.com e-mail address. Leave the moderating to the moderators.

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If it's NPS... then it is a NONO...

end of story and no amount of complaining is going to change that...

 

Just what NPS Park are you referring to anyway???

and what caches?

I'd like to see them for myself...

 

Once again, show me the law.

 

The ACTUAL law.

 

You know, the USC or the CFR with the cute little § symbol.........

 

There is no NPS "law" that directly addresses geocaching. Existing regulations have been interpreted by the NPS to preclude geocaching. NPS personnel actively seek out and remove caches on NPS lands that have been inadvertantly listed and they have in some cases threatened cache owners with prosecution. In some very rare instances, local NPS management has allowed geocaches, but you can probably count the exceptions on one hand. Your beef is with the NPS, not the reviewers or geocaching.com

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Ummmm... moderator has to do with the website...

does not necessarily mean they are also an approver nor vice versa......

although in this case it does...

 

Keystone was not the reviewer in question.

 

Thanks again.

 

Too many people have forgotten the attitude of the men who started this country.

 

"A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson

Edited by trackinthebox
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If it's NPS... then it is a NONO...

end of story and no amount of complaining is going to change that...

 

Just what NPS Park are you referring to anyway???

and what caches?

I'd like to see them for myself...

 

Once again, show me the law.

 

The ACTUAL law.

 

You know, the USC or the CFR with the cute little § symbol.........

 

I'll bite, and provide you and your crack lawyer a place to start researching your lawsuit against Groundspeak for violating your rights (ha!):

 

Look up and read "NPS Geocaching Policy", published October 10, 2002, by the NPS Office of Policy and written by Marcia Keener.

Edited by Mopar
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I'll bite, and provide you and your crack lawyer a place to start researching your lawsuit against Groundspeak for violating your rights (ha!):

 

Look up and read "NPS Geocaching Policy", published October 10, 2002, by the NPS Office of Policy and written by Marcia Keener.

 

Well, if Mopar says this document exists, that should be plenty good enough :anicute:

 

But I do think the OP should be cut some slack, he's getting his information from Geocachingpolicy.org which I always assumed was a respected resource (I could be wrong).

 

If moving to an SGL, I'd think you may want to avoid the one bisected by U.S. Rt. 6 in Pike County. I don't know the SGL number. This cache, Space Oddity (which I've found) was removed by an overzealous anti-geocaching SGL mangager. There is however 2 other caches on this SGL that are active, and seem to be getting happy visits. If Keystone is still following this thread maybe he knows more about that situation, of if this is even good advice I'm giving.

 

Best of luck with your cache.

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Like briansnat said above, your beef is with the NPS...

NOT Geocaching...

 

couple questions...

 

you have a secondary subject listed as "bias"...

yet you only have 13 caches to your credit... over the course of a week so far???

Why in the world would the Geocaching Reviewers be "biased" towards you?

Why would a cache be rejected from a certain place by an organization that promotes geocsching without good reason?

 

The reviewers are volunteers...

and spend a lot of their own time researching a whole lot of new caches daily...

They do this FOR YOU... in part to protect YOU...

Geeze, give them a break, they do not need this kind of garbage, nor do they deserve it...

 

Is there any particular reason you feel you are being singled out???

Do you think you have researched these topics as much as someone who has been caching for years and has many more caches to their credit?

 

I just don't get where you feel there is a "bias"???

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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They do this FOR YOU... in part to protect YOU...

 

I can protect MYSELF just fine thank you.

 

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

 

Seems to me, geocaching.com is MORE concerned about geocaching on NPS property than the NPS themselves. Thus the 11 caches in this park, MOST without permission.

 

IF I had a problem (which I am SURE I wouldn't have) I have a good attorney like I said......

 

But whatever........

 

My cache is gone and I refuse to jump through hoops to place a cache there.

 

In fact, I refuse to jump through hoops to do ANYTHING in this life whatsoever.

Edited by trackinthebox
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By way of further background, and in addition to the source Mopar cites in his post, I wanted to reproduce the single document pointed to most often as the origin/basis for the "ban on geocaching" in areas managed by the National Park Service ("NPS") -- the "Morning Report" from March 22, 2001. Reading this document may help people to better understand the reasoning behind some of the site's listing guidelines, such as the "no buried caches" guideline, not just the NPS guideline.

 

Geocaching - There is a new web-based activity called geocaching that has affected several National Park Service areas. The Ranger Activities Division asked Olympic NP SA Mike Butler to investigate. Here's his report: Geocaching is an activity in which participants hide a cache and take a position at the location using a GPS receiver. The position is then published on the group's web site with an invitation to search for the "treasure." Caches often contain a notebook or log book and something the finder may take. The finder is asked to put another item in the cache for others to discover and will often report the find on the web site. Several caches have been found in National Park Service areas. The webmaster for the site has been contacted. He was very surprised that geocaching is illegal in NPS areas, and understood NPS concerns about the damage geocaching has and can cause to historic, archeological and natural sites. He agreed to work with the Service to discourage further geocaching activities in parks.

 

Two related activities were also discovered. Letterboxing is a phenomenon similar to geocaching in that a player takes directions from a web site and uses those directions to find a hidden object. In letterboxing, the directions come in the form of a riddle and the hidden object is a stamp which the finder can use to stamp a piece of paper to prove that he has visited the site. The web site showed the location of at least two letterboxes in parks. The parks have been notified, but the Service has not yet contacted the webmaster or game managers. The Degree Confluence Project is another web-based activity where people try to visit various latitude and longitude integer degree intersections and report their findings on the web site. In this case, however, no objects are placed in the ground, and there are no apparent regulatory violations in areas where cross-country travel is allowed or where the confluence is not on a protected site. There has been no attempt to contact the project organizers.

 

Additional comments referring to sections of the Code of Federal Regulations: The depositing of the cache, be it a bucket or other type of container, could be in violation of a few regulations like digging up plants if it was being buried. Additionally, it is against regulations to leave property unattended for more than 24 hours without it being subject to impoundment. If people are "hunting" for something, it could certainly take more than 24 hours to find. Lastly, some areas are closed to off-trail hiking which could prohibit someone from going off trail to place or retrieve a cache.

 

Geocaching.com's volunteer cache reviewers are asked to respect determinations by land managers such as the NPS -- regardless of whether we agree with the logic. We are simply doing our job. We would much prefer it if all land managers allowed geocaching without regulation, as it would make our job much easier! But instead, I need to keep track of more than 30 land manager policies -- National, State and Local -- within my review territory.

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I'll bite, and provide you and your crack lawyer a place to start researching your lawsuit against Groundspeak for violating your rights (ha!):

 

Look up and read "NPS Geocaching Policy", published October 10, 2002, by the NPS Office of Policy and written by Marcia Keener.

 

Marcia Keener is NOT a Lawmaker.

 

September 20, 2006: http://www.mountainx.com/features/2006/0920greenscene.php

 

"Marcia Keener, an analyst with the Office of Policy at the National Park Service, says the NPS has not officially banned geocaching but considers it "banned until permitted."

 

Well I consider it officially permitted until banned BY AN ACTUAL LAW, not some moronic park service - yes man monkey - opinion .........

 

There is no law so stop wasting your time, AND mine.

 

I'm done with this, I have a cache to place today.

Edited by trackinthebox
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But I do think the OP should be cut some slack, he's getting his information from Geocachingpolicy.org which I always assumed was a respected resource (I could be wrong).

 

If moving to an SGL, I'd think you may want to avoid the one bisected by U.S. Rt. 6 in Pike County. I don't know the SGL number. This cache, Space Oddity (which I've found) was removed by an overzealous anti-geocaching SGL mangager. There is however 2 other caches on this SGL that are active, and seem to be getting happy visits. If Keystone is still following this thread maybe he knows more about that situation, of if this is even good advice I'm giving.

 

Best of luck with your cache.

1. I basically ignore the Geocachingpolicy.org site. It has no affiliation with Geocaching.com.

 

2. You give very good advice about State Game Lands. The local situation can vary from one SGL to another. I see Game Lands caches placed with express permission. I hear of Game Lands managers who say "we know about the caches, and aren't very concerned about them. And I hear of SGL's where caching is frowned upon, primarily in the Northeast part of the State. There are many threads about this. Every cache hider is responsible for determining whether they've obtained "adequate permission" for hiding their cache. If there is a published policy, I will verify compliance. The absence of a policy does NOT necessarily mean that no permission is ever needed.

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In fact, I refuse to jump through hoops to do ANYTHING in this life whatsoever.

 

Good thing you weren't born a poodle then.

 

Well I consider it officially permitted until banned BY AN ACTUAL LAW, not some moronic park service - yes man monkey - opinion .........

 

There is no law, but there are regulations. There is a difference, but both have the same net affect. You can pick all the nits you want, but the fact remains that if we place caches there the rangers will remove them. So why not just enjoy our sport in places where we are welcome?

 

BTW, I've looked at every cache in the area and found 1 that was actually in the DWNRA, apparently with the permission of the local NPS management. Its very rare, but some local NPS officials have allowed geocaches on NPS lands and this appears to be one of the rare exceptions.

Edited by briansnat
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But I do think the OP should be cut some slack, he's getting his information from Geocachingpolicy.org which I always assumed was a respected resource (I could be wrong).

 

If moving to an SGL, I'd think you may want to avoid the one bisected by U.S. Rt. 6 in Pike County. I don't know the SGL number. This cache, Space Oddity (which I've found) was removed by an overzealous anti-geocaching SGL mangager. There is however 2 other caches on this SGL that are active, and seem to be getting happy visits. If Keystone is still following this thread maybe he knows more about that situation, of if this is even good advice I'm giving.

 

Best of luck with your cache.

 

Thanks.

 

I did avoid the one that Rt. 6 bisects. That would be SGL 180. Mine was placed on SGL 209 very deep in the woods.

 

I found the Shohola Falls cache on 180 about a week ago. Nice cache.

 

Wow, there was no need to archive Mountain Man. I'm sure the NPS didn't give a hoot about it. And who cares if they did? Not me.

 

Perhaps if the reviewers were members of the victims families of the NPS's theft in the inTocksicated Island debacle, they would feel differently.

 

Do a little history research about Tocks Island.

 

Then maybe you would be able to see how people could feel the same as the guy from Braveheart that said............

 

Stephen: Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island. Except I'm not on my island, of course. More's the pity.

Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.

Stephen: Yeah. It's MINE.

Hamish: You're a madman.

Stephen: [Laughs] I've come to the right place then.

Edited by trackinthebox
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Wow, there was no need to archive Mountain Man. I'm sure the NPS didn't give a hoot about it. And who cares if they did? Not me.

*We* care about following Groundspeak's instructions not to publish caches on NPS-managed land without clear evidence of permission. Occasionally, one slips through, like this one did -- the cache description doesn't make it sound like it's on NPS property. The mistake was corrected. Thank you for focusing the reviewers on this area so we could make sure that all the caches were treated properly under the listing guidelines. Without your thread, we may have missed that.

 

Perhaps if the reviewers were members of the victims families of the NPS's theft in the inTocksicated Island debacle, they would feel differently.

 

Do a little history research about Tocks Island.

 

Then maybe you would be able to see how people could feel the same as the guy from Braveheart that said............

 

Stephen: Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island. Except I'm not on my island, of course. More's the pity.

Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.

Stephen: Yeah. It's MINE.

Hamish: You're a madman.

Stephen: [Laughs] I've come to the right place then.

I'll let you in on a secret: if "feelings" counted in cache reviewing, an awful lot of caches that are published, would not be, and a few caches that can't be published, would be. But feelings don't enter into it very much. Our job is to follow the listing guidelines. The sooner you realize this, the happier you will be as a geocache hider. We look forward to working with you on your future hides.

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I sent you a PM with the NON Virtual caches located in this park.

 

It doesn't matter anyway as I retreived the cache today and intend to place it on State Game Lands which I understand from researching, needs no permission.

I looked at the first five or so caches on your list. Most of them were miles away, in New Jersey. The first two I looked at were in the NRA, but with permission expressly stated. The third was in a NJ State Forest. All the ones I looked at took great care to talk about land management/ownership and what permission was obtained. If you did the research and legwork like those cache owners did, perhaps your cache could be published too. In NPS managed land, it is not a matter of hiking into the woods and plunking down an ammo box.

 

The cache in the NJ State Forest is likely one of mine. For the record, I met with the State Forest personnel, drafted a written proposal of the cache placement, received written approval and shared a scanned copy of the approval with the Geocaching.com Reviewer before placing my caches in the forest.

 

I have been working my tail off to get the NJ State Park Service excited about having caches in their parks. Generally speaking, they are interested and eager to have caches in their parks. That said, I can't tell you how frustrated it makes them when cachers break the rules of their parks as, laws or no laws, they have obligations to protect sensitive park areas, ensure visitor safety and generally be aware of how the park is being used.

 

I can imagine if someone walked into your place of business with a big sense of entitlement ignoring your rules and guidances, you wouldn't be looking to help them out any time soon. Same goes here. Do a little work and consider it professional courtesy.

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I can imagine if someone walked into your place of business with a big sense of entitlement ignoring your rules and guidances, you wouldn't be looking to help them out any time soon. Same goes here. Do a little work and consider it professional courtesy.

 

Yeah, taxes tend to do that....

 

They give me a "big sense of entitlement"

 

And professional courtesy? I'll leave that one for the attorneys.

 

In any event, just because I feel permission is a rediculous requirement (IE: May I have permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe) for Geocaching...........

.......doesn't mean I trapse through the forest with wanton disregard for nature. I take trash out whenever I encounter it and I don't and wouldn't disturb or cause to be disturbed ANY sensitive areas. And this is WAY before I discovered Geocaching.

 

This post: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...ic=59382&hl

 

about says it all.

 

AND it's quite similar to:

 

"A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson

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In any event, just because I feel permission is a rediculous requirement (IE: May I have permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe) for Geocaching...........

.......doesn't mean I trapse through the forest with wanton disregard for nature. I take trash out whenever I encounter it and I don't and wouldn't disturb or cause to be disturbed ANY sensitive areas. And this is WAY before I discovered Geocaching.

 

You won't find too many people who disagree with you around here.

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I can imagine if someone walked into your place of business with a big sense of entitlement ignoring your rules and guidances, you wouldn't be looking to help them out any time soon. Same goes here. Do a little work and consider it professional courtesy.

 

Yeah, taxes tend to do that....

 

They give me a "big sense of entitlement"

 

And professional courtesy? I'll leave that one for the attorneys.

 

In any event, just because I feel permission is a rediculous requirement (IE: May I have permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe) for Geocaching...........

.......doesn't mean I trapse through the forest with wanton disregard for nature. I take trash out whenever I encounter it and I don't and wouldn't disturb or cause to be disturbed ANY sensitive areas. And this is WAY before I discovered Geocaching.

 

This post: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...ic=59382&hl

 

about says it all.

 

AND it's quite similar to:

 

"A free people claim their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson

 

It sounds like your sense of entitlement keeps your attorneys well paid as you refer to them so often. I can think of a lot better ways to spend my time and my money. But whatever floats your boat.

 

It is a lot easier to encourage an advocate than it is to move an enemy. The harder you try to ingore rules and agreements that exist, the less enjoyable your geocaching experience will be. I don't necessarily agree with many placement rules either but my experience in other organizations which successfully had them changed (IMBA) is that it came through working with the organizations to make them understand a different value proposition.

 

And yes, I can Google Thomas Jefferson quotes too:

 

"When angry, count ten before you speak; if very angry, an hundred"

 

"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong"

 

"An injured friend is the bitterest of foes"

 

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government"

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Point is, nobody would THINK of asking permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe on land that their tax dollars pay for. They just do it.

 

Putting a tin box filled with dollar store trinkets on those same lands is not littering by the very definition of geocaching.

 

Geocaches are NOT abandoned.

Geocaches are NOT litter.

 

When geocachers ALLOW geocaching to be called littering by the the NPS by submitting to their rediculous definition of OUR hobby, WE get hurt by our submission, NOT them.

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Wow, 2 weeks into the hobby AND he has the best attorney in the country!

 

NOT IMPRESSED!

 

I am impressed that within a few days he has posted more times than I did in 2 weeks.

 

Best advise I can give, stop crying and have some fun. It's a hobby not your right, not a violation of any part of the Constitution and not an open door to attack the NPS. What you are making it is a future lock already placed on the closed door for any future ability for a hide in the NPS.

 

...but then again, you've been here for 2 weeks and you have the best attorney in the country that can get you out of anything...and I thought OJ's lawyer had died...guess not.

Edited by Whistlen
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bla bla bla.....................It's a hobby not your right..............................bla bla bla

 

Wrong.

 

The pursuit of Happiness is defined by the one doing the pursuing provided there is no SPECIFIC law prohibiting such pursuit which in the case of geocaching there isn't.

 

Next........

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

It's self evident. I haven't forgotten that.

 

They are given by our Creator, not a mere man. I haven't forgotten that.

 

They are unalienable

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source un·al·ien·a·ble (n-ly-n-bl, -l--) Pronunciation Key

adj. Not to be separated, given away, or taken away; inalienable: “All of them... claim unalienable dignity as individuals” (Garrison Keillor). I haven't forgotten that.

 

among these means there are more than just these. I haven't forgotten that either.

 

And if geocaching happens to fall within MY pursuit of happiness (which it does), it is a RIGHT. And I most certainly haven't forgotten that.

Edited by trackinthebox
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trackinthebox.

 

1) You don't seem to be aware of the history of the NPS ban. Nor the circumstances by which they can and will allow a cache. Learn this grasshopper and you will place many an approved cache. Yes I'm being patronizing intentionally.

2) Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Alas while the spirit of the constitution is based upon some of these things, we also have to face the reality that your right to happiness ends where my nose begins. We both live in this country. If the NPS in it's wisdom bans caching the theory is that they are acting for the greater good and making more people happy than if geocachers were in their parks. They are likely wrong but that's why we have congress. To fix things like that.

3) Since you are quoting federal documents to make a case for a cache listing, perhaps you should write congress or the feds

4) Good luck with that.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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trackinthebox.

 

1) You don't seem to be aware of the history of the NPS ban. Nor the circumstances by which they can and will allow a cache. Learn this grasshopper and you will place many an approved cache. Yes I'm being patronizing intentionally.

2) Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Alas while the spirit of the constitution is based upon some of these things, we also have to face the reality that your right to happiness ends where my nose begins. We both live in this country. If the NPS in it's wisdom bans caching the theory is that they are acting for the greater good and making more people happy than if geocachers were in their parks. They are likely wrong but that's why we have congress. To fix things like that.

3) Since you are quoting federal documents to make a case for a cache listing, perhaps you should write congress or the feds

4) Good luck with that.

 

1) There is no NPS "ban" as there is no law.

 

2) Thats from the Declaration, not the Constitution. I never said I wanted to place a cache on your nose did I? :(

 

3) No need, my Creator already gave me my rights.

 

4) See # 3

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trackinthebox.

 

1) You don't seem to be aware of the history of the NPS ban. Nor the circumstances by which they can and will allow a cache. Learn this grasshopper and you will place many an approved cache. Yes I'm being patronizing intentionally.

2) Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Alas while the spirit of the constitution is based upon some of these things, we also have to face the reality that your right to happiness ends where my nose begins. We both live in this country. If the NPS in it's wisdom bans caching the theory is that they are acting for the greater good and making more people happy than if geocachers were in their parks. They are likely wrong but that's why we have congress. To fix things like that.

3) Since you are quoting federal documents to make a case for a cache listing, perhaps you should write congress or the feds

4) Good luck with that.

 

1) There is no NPS "ban" as there is no law.

 

2) Thats from the Declaration, not the Constitution. I never said I wanted to place a cache on your nose did I? :(

 

3) No need, my Creator already gave me my rights.

 

4) See # 3

 

1) You don't know how the government works then. I do. You can cooperate and graduate (meaning get what you want) or you can delude yourself and pretty much fail at your goals.

2) Um...Ya think? Good thing I didn't allude to the Delcaration being inspired by the Constutation...That would be backwards. The constution and more specificlly the Bill of Righs was inspired by the Delcaration. Read it again. In simpler terms it means your rights end where my rights begin. Figure it out.

3) Your creator also gave you the obligation to get along with your fellow man. That means *gasp* rules and government. Unless you have a different creator than I do but then even "other creators" seem to have rules and obligations for their people.

4) My mistake, good luck in general. The thing about making a change is knowing where to go so you can effect some good. Here in these forums, you can learn how to get that cache approved, and perhaps influence geocaching.com. You won't do much with the Delcaration or the government that sprang from it. That government really doesn't care too much about your single cache in that park, and they won't do much to help you get it approved. However the advice givne here can do you some good. It depends on your goals. Mostly your goals appear to be standing on a soabox with a bullhorn.

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1) You don't know how the government works then. I do. You can cooperate and graduate (meaning get what you want) or you can delude yourself and pretty much fail at your goals.

2) Um...Ya think? Good thing I didn't allude to the Delcaration being inspired by the Constutation...That would be backwards. The constution and more specificlly the Bill of Righs was inspired by the Delcaration. Read it again. In simpler terms it means your rights end where my rights begin. Figure it out.

3) Your creator also gave you the obligation to get along with your fellow man. That means *gasp* rules and government. Unless you have a different creator than I do but then even "other creators" seem to have rules and obligations for their people.

4) My mistake, good luck in general. The thing about making a change is knowing where to go so you can effect some good. Here in these forums, you can learn how to get that cache approved, and perhaps influence geocaching.com. You won't do much with the Delcaration or the government that sprang from it. That government really doesn't care too much about your single cache in that park, and they won't do much to help you get it approved. However the advice givne here can do you some good. It depends on your goals. Mostly your goals appear to be standing on a soabox with a bullhorn.

 

1) You were talking about a "ban". Show me the "ban" in the USC and NOT the NPS's twisting of it to suit their own needs. Geocaches are NOT litter or abandoned property. Geocachers know this.

 

2) a] Wow and b] Was a joke son, get it? :(

 

3) Once again, I don't have to ask for permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe. Is that REALLY that hard to understand? :laughing:

 

4) http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...ic=59382&hl

Edited by trackinthebox
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1) You were talking about a "ban". Show me the "ban" in the USC and NOT the NPS's twisting of it to suit their own needs. Geocaches are NOT litter or abandoned property. Geocachers know this.

 

As I mentioned before, there is no law per se. Since you don't like the word "ban", they disallow geocaching through an interpretation of existing regulations and policies. Regulations and policies are not laws, but like laws, they proscribe certain behaviors and actions and impose penalties for violating them. The end effect is the same.

 

So the NPS does not allow geocaches and will remove them if you do place them. You can spout all the libertarian quotes you want but that doesn't change things. The NPS does not allow geocaching.

 

I agree with you that geocaching is relatively harmless and their blanket ban isridiculious, but we have to live with it. There are two ways to deal with it. Ignore it and provoke the NPS into hardening their stance (which may have an unintended domino effect with other federal land agencies), or enjoy our sport where we are welcome and keep a dialog open with the NPS to get them to reverse their stand. GC.Com chooses to do the latter.

 

Finally, you seem to like quoting Criminal's excellent post on the subject of obtaining permission for geocaching, but you've misinterpreted it. Criminal was addressing the idea of asking for permission WHERE NO POLICY EXISTS. Nowhere in that post, or in any other on this website has he ever espoused ignoring existing regulations regarding the sport.

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3) Once again, I don't have to ask for permission to walk, hike, swim or breathe. Is that REALLY that hard to understand? :(

Once again, you are eminently free to hide huge stashes of just about anything on NPS land. Then, you are free to deal with the NPS on your own terms when they call you on it. You are not free to use the private entity geocaching.com to advertise those stashes on NPS land unless the people who run geocaching.com agree to. As of right now, they don't. Is that REALLY that hard to understand? :laughing:

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You are not free to use the private entity geocaching.com to advertise those stashes on NPS land unless the people who run geocaching.com agree to. As of right now, they don't. Is that REALLY that hard to understand? :(

 

Oh but they do, and they have.

 

As of this date, there are still 2 non-virtual caches in this park on NPS land in PA. Thus the secondary title of the original post.

 

One of these PA caches is "hidden" by a premium membership but easily spotted as it is a short distance from a public one.

 

I made the mistake of pointing one out and it was archived so I wont do that again. However they are still there.

 

In NJ, in this park, once again on NPS land, there are about a half dozen.

 

Selective approval of caches is bound to irritate.

Edited by trackinthebox
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