Why do we insist on hiding near letterboxes

[+huskerrich2000]

I came to geocaching from the letterboxing fraternity. It never ceases to amaze me how many times the two hobbies seem to come across the lines. Letterboxing has a bad opinion of geocacher, I feel for good reason.

 

1) Jeremy has created a excellent site with good cooperation of the land owners. Oversite of where caches are placed and how close together. Maintenance of online logs. Letterboxing doen't have the oversite and the orgainzation to match.

 

2) Geocaching does seem to get both the negative and postive P.R. We are the better known of the two activities even though there was letterboxing before geocaching.

 

3) the nature of our sport allows us to have better control.

 

With all our advantages, why do we insist on placing our caches near existing letterboxes? I know of one cache in the PAC NW that even notes on the cache page that there is a letterbox within ten feet of it. (the cache was created in 2004, letterbox existed since 2001). This area is a huge public flower garden and the two boxes are within a few feet of each other. Nearest geocache to this box is .8miles away.

[+Kabuthunk]

I'm guessing that many a time a geocache will end up close to a letterbox. Why? It's a good location, and I'm quite sure that people who only letterbox don't check geocaching.com t osee if anything is nearby, and people who only geocache don't check letterboxing.org to see if anything is nearby.

 

Hence... the two simply don't know about the existance of the other cache 99% of the time.

[+briansnat]

We can also ask, why do letterboxers insist on placing their boxes near our geocaches? I know of many instances where a LB and cache are near each other and the cache was there first.

 

I doubt most geocache placers even know about the letterboxes. Letterboxing is relatively obscure compared to geocaching and many (if not most) of us aren't even aware the sport exists. So I think most geocaches that are hidden near letterboxes are placed out of ignorance.

 

Judging from I've read in various letterboxing forums, LBers on the other hand are quite aware of geocaching (and usually do not have a high opinion of the sport), so I would think they really don't have a good excuse for poaching geocache spots.

[+huskerrich2000]

actually, letterboxers are being told in thier forums about geocaching and how to check proximity, google earth only makes things easier.

 

Let's use the case above where the letterbox was there, the cache owner finds out about it and leaves the cache where it is anyway. or even worse sabatoging the letterbox

[+sbell111]

Why do geocaches get placed near navicaches?

 

Who cares?

[+Cache Heads]

I have found a cache sitting directly next to a letterbox, and in this case the cache owner did mention the letterbox in the cache description. I'll admit that it was kind of strange, and made the two containers look more like trash than like hidden treasures... however, in this case the geocache was there first-- the letterbox was placed later

 

I would assume that most geocachers don't even think of checking the Letterboxing site before they place a cache (and vice-versa) and I don't blame them. There are lots of "treasure" listing services-- not just Geocaching and Letterboxing; to check everyone of them before hiding a cache would be extremely difficult. It would be even more difficult for reviewers to attempt to enforce this, as they already have so much to do. I think your point is valid, but it applies to all treasure hiding activities. Best thing to do if you realize that your hide location has a letterbox, terracache, etc.. already in existence is to move your hide-- but there's only so much work that one can do to figure that out.

[+sbell111]

I probably wouldn't move my cache, just because a letterbox was nearby.

[+briansnat]

actually, letterboxers are being told in thier forums about geocaching and how to check proximity, google earth only makes things easier.

 

Let's use the case above where the letterbox was there, the cache owner finds out about it and leaves the cache where it is anyway. or even worse sabatoging the letterbox

 

Sabatoging the letterbox is not acceptable, but I see no reason the two can't share a spot. Its not like the two containers are going to fight or anything.

 

I have a cache about 30 feet from a letterbox and they seem to get along quite well. I note the existence of the LB on the cache page so people know to keep looking if they find the LB first. I also placed a note in the LB saying, "If you are a geocacher, this is a letterbox, not the geocache you are looking for. Do not remove the stamp from this container. The cache is nearby".

 

In the above instance the letterbox predated my cache, but I was not aware of its existence until months after I placed the cache. Unlike letterboxers, we can't use Google Earth or any online tool to figure out if there is a letterbox nearby. So short of us finding every letterbox in the general area, or scouring the area around our planned cache site for a possible letterbox, there really is no way for us to know one is there.

[+Cache Heads]

I probably wouldn't move my cache, just because a letterbox was nearby.

I think it depends... in the case that I encountered, I wouldn't want my geocache sitting right next to that letterbox-- it's cheesey and kind of degrades the "specialness" ( , or whatever) of my cache. I wouldn't move my hide if I placed it in a good spot, never saw any other container and didn't feel like the two had any effect on one another. But, using OP's example (and assuming I was aware of the letterbox), I'd probably choose a better place for my hide.

[julieinga]

I think the biggest complaint from letterboxers is that geocachers take the stamp thinking it's a trade item. These hand carved stamps take a lot of work. I first found out about geocaching from a hybrid cache. A geocacher with no exposure to letterboxing would probably take the stamp by accident.

 

A little education goes a long way.

[+GEO.JOE]

I don't know how many of the 319174 current active caches were intentionally placed near letterboxes but I can't imagine it is a very common practice.

 

If all we are focusing on is:

the case above where the letterbox was there, the cache owner finds out about it and leaves the cache where it is anyway.

 

It sounds like the problem represents 1 in 319174. I believe that is an acceptable ratio for the number of people that will die from a medicine compared to the number of people the medicine will help. So if it is an acceptable ratio for life and death it doesn't really sound like it is much of a problem in a game

 

Seriously though, There are people out there that have more ego then they have sense, so we are going to run into rude behaviors in this sport. It would be nice it everyone was extremely courteous and did not step on the toes of other activities. However, geocaching is a little slice of humanity and as you can see in the forums there are constantly discussions about , rude, disrespectful, uncaring, aggressive etc. behaviors displayed by geocachers(and most likely similar discussions in the letterboxer's forum about letterboxers). Some folks have a sense of unjustified entitlement and they feel they deserve to do what they want when they want and they feel that they are always right. Will they change? Doubtful.

 

In situations you described there is likely an ego battle going on between the two owners. Each feel they have the right to be there and likely feel they "Own" the spot. I would say in most cases where leterboxes and geocaches are close to each other there are no problems at all(as long as unknowing geocachers don't take the letterbox stamp). If the cache owner you mentioned is truly sabotaging the letterbox then he is obviously acting poorly and peer pressure should be placed on him to influence him to change his behaviors.

 

However, is a cache/letterbox owner really doing anything wrong by just not moving their container? What is the harm if a few cachers mistakenly find the letterbox and a few letterboxers find the cache? By hiding the containers close to each other it may introduce numerous folks to the other sport and they may learn to respect the other sport, some may even pick up the other hobby. The situation could be more beneficial then harmful in the long run.

[+Moore9KSUcats]

If a spot is special, and you want to share it with others, why share it with just one community? (geocaching vs letterboxing)

 

The letterboxers may get to know the spot through their box hunts, but few geocachers would know about it, and vice-versa..

 

On a slightly different aspect, one trail in town has 3 letterboxes within about 150 paces of each other. I do feel that it is a good practice to maintain more distance as is practiced with geocaching. We previously had 2 caches on the trail (one about 5 feet from a letterbox), but they were muggled, and the trail was getting torn up, so we left it for others. (The trail is not well-maintained by the city.. railroad ties were being dislodged and tossed, etc. Just plain vandalism, unfortunately.) We may return with geocaches again, but we aren't sure.

 

We have been geocachers since 2002, and recently started letterboxing (August 2006) through an accidental find. Unfortunately, there are maybe a dozen boxes in our town, less than 50 in two counties (I don't remember the actual count), where there are 1,700 or more geocaches in a 50 mile radius of our house. We've already found 7 or 8 in our town, and placed two of our own. Letterboxing has its own appeals, but just doesn't have the following for number of caches that geocaching does in our area.

 

Education on both areas is what is important. If there is a letterbox near your cache, place a note on the logbook telling possible geocacher finders that the stamp is NOT a trade, as one other geocacher did.

[+sbell111]

... in the case that I encountered, I wouldn't want my geocache sitting right next to that letterbox-- it's cheesey and kind of degrades the "specialness" ( , or whatever) of my cache. ...

I don't see how a nearby letterbox makes the location any less special. That's like saying that I can't place a geocache in a specific location because another cache used to be nearby.

Edited October 4, 2006 by sbell111

[+Cache Heads]

... in the case that I encountered, I wouldn't want my geocache sitting right next to that letterbox-- it's cheesey and kind of degrades the "specialness" ( , or whatever) of my cache. ...

I don't see how a nearby letterbox makes the location any less special. That's like saying that I can't place a geocache in a specific location because another cache used to be nearby.

I didn't say it makes the location less special-- I said it makes my cache less special. The OP's example and my example both refer to caches that are visibly (within feet) next to letterboxes. IMHO, if there are 2 containers sitting next to each other they start to look like trash and not treasure. So, I was kind of unimpressed by the cache I found sitting right there next to a letterbox, just because... well, I don't really know why-- it just looked lame.... and in that case, the letterbox came 2nd. I'm not even saying cachers/letterboxers should or shouldn't do this. I'm just saying I wouldn't place a cache where there was clearly a letterbox, terracache, navicache etc... already there.

 

But, like I said before, if the two containers had no effect on one another I might not see it as a problem.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Cache Heads

[+sbell111]

... in the case that I encountered, I wouldn't want my geocache sitting right next to that letterbox-- it's cheesey and kind of degrades the "specialness" ( , or whatever) of my cache. ...

I don't see how a nearby letterbox makes the location any less special. That's like saying that I can't place a geocache in a specific location because another cache used to be nearby.

I didn't say it makes the location less special-- I said it makes my cache less special. The OP's example and my example both refer to caches that are visibly (within feet) next to letterboxes. IMHO, if there are 2 containers sitting next to each other they start to look like trash and not treasure. So, I was kind of unimpressed by the cache I found sitting right there next to a letterbox, just because... well, I don't really know why-- it just looked lame.... and in that case, the letterbox came 2nd. I'm not even saying cachers/letterboxers should or shouldn't do this. I'm just saying I wouldn't place a cache where there was clearly a letterbox, terracache, navicache etc... already there.

 

But, like I said before, if the two containers had no effect on one another and weren't visible from each other's locations, I wouldn't see a problem.

I think it could be argued that being next to each other would make them each more special. If I found the cache, I would recognize that two different gameplayers found the spot and thought it was good enough for a cache/letterbox.

 

Also, if they are right next to one onather, they are much less likely to cause confusion than if they were, say, twenty feet away.

[+Katydid & Miles Stone]

Letterboxing has a bad opinion of geocacher, I feel for good reason.

 

This is a very broad generalization. Here in CT we get along very well with our letterboxing counterparts. It so happens many of my caches are quite close to letterboxes. Not by design; it just so happens we all seem to enjoy similar spots. I often check up on their letterboxes while I'm checking on my caches. I've also done basic maintenance on their boxes. Also, I've gotten notes from letterboxes telling me if I was having problems with my caches or they are OK.

 

There biggest problem with geocachers as expressed to me has been having their stamps traded out when the cacher thinks it is a geocache. From my experience, the two hobbies compliment oneanother quite well.

[+Cache Heads]

I think it could be argued that being next to each other would make them each more special. If I found the cache, I would recognize that two different gameplayers found the spot and thought it was good enough for a cache/letterbox.

I get your point... I just wasn't so into it when I actually saw it .... perhaps if it was done better, like if the cacher and the letterboxer collaborated on their hides so that they complimented each other instead of having two pieces of tupperware just sitting there

Also, if they are right next to one onather, they are much less likely to cause confusion than if they were, say, twenty feet away.

True, true....

[+Renegade Knight]

If it's a worthy location, it's a worthy location, geocache, letterbox, litterbox or whatever. People will seek out these spots and put a cache or letterbox there regardless.

 

The real question is how to best resolve a conflict and at what point they are too close to each other. Though I think sbell111 makes a good point. If you have two boxes in exactly the same spot and one says "Geocache" and the other "Letterbox" that's not that confusing.

[+darus67]

In cases where it is discovered that a cache and a letterbox are in extreme close proximity, why not try to get together and make it a hybrid?

[+huskerrich2000]

I think that would be a great idea, but would probaly have to yield to preferences of the two parties involved. I know alot of letterboxers that prefer not to log online the status of the box. However as others have said, "Education & communication". My daughters plant letterboxes and they intend for you to follow the clues to find the box or it isn't a find.

[+welch]

actually, letterboxers are being told in thier forums about geocaching and how to check proximity, google earth only makes things easier.

 

Let's use the case above where the letterbox was there, the cache owner finds out about it and leaves the cache where it is anyway. or even worse sabatoging the letterbox

 

Ok, but are they checking just geocaching.com? or other geocaching sites too? (at least four listing sites)

 

For that matter do they check other letterboxing sites? (letterboxing.org, atlasquest.com, what else?)

And if they do, how do they?? Even letterboxes that aren't multis or 'mystery' usually don't have coords

 

As for "why do we insist on hiding near letterboes", I think a lot of people just aren't aware of the other hobby (or other sites withing their own hobby). Then there are some that know, but don't ever bother checking. Maybe they don't care, maybe their is almost never anything else so they just don't, who knows.

And maybe there are those that try to check everything, though I doubt it because it probably means they've found and have marked coordinates for every geocache (from every listing site) and every letterbox (from every site) in their area.

 

We're all out hiding containers, bumping into something from the 'otherside' is bound to happen. Just play nice, leave other people boxes alone as you would want them to leave yours alone.

[+sbell111]

I think that would be a great idea, but would probaly have to yield to preferences of the two parties involved. I know alot of letterboxers that prefer not to log online the status of the box. However as others have said, "Education & communication". My daughters plant letterboxes and they intend for you to follow the clues to find the box or it isn't a find.

Depending on the clues involved, that is still doable.

[+huskerrich2000]

three alternate sites. I went to the alternate sites and entered Portland, OR a geocaching and letterboxing hotbed, there appears to be maxium of two caches that aren't listed on geocaching.com. talk about a monopoly.

[+sbell111]

Some of those sites require me to be a member to see the caches and to jump through hoops to be a member. Should a person go through all that, or just hide a geocache for the rest of us to find?

Edited October 4, 2006 by sbell111

[+Kabuthunk]

Y'know, I'm seeing time and again that the primary problem that letterboxers have with geocachers is the many times repeated 'stealing of the stamp'.

 

At one point or another, I will be creating a letterbox hybrid geocache. The method that I'm planning to use to stop this problem is to have the stamp (which I've already carved, and is made of wood) will be attached to the cache box with a thin chain, probably about 3 feet long or something. I'll probably also have a note attached to the stamp (or clamped onto the chain with one of those hospital bracelet type things) saying what the stamp is for.

 

Hence... I'd think that would solve pretty much 90% of letterboxer's qualms with geocachers. Just attach the stamp somehow to the cache. No more of it being taken.

[+welch]

three alternate sites. I went to the alternate sites and entered Portland, OR a geocaching and letterboxing hotbed, there appears to be maxium of two caches that aren't listed on geocaching.com. talk about a monopoly.

Are either of those two caches get placed near letterboxes?

 

But really it doesn't matter, the point is there could be caches or letterboxes near whatever you prefer to hide and you might not now it. This doesn't mean it was intentional or done with malice.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Hence... I'd think that would solve pretty much 90% of letterboxer's qualms with geocachers. Just attach the stamp somehow to the cache. No more of it being taken.

Good point. Most cachers don't read the forums in geocaching.com to know about the differences between geocaching and letterboxing. A stamp for most cachers would be swag. Not because they want to steal it but because they like it and trade for it. Obviously not kosher in a letterbox but fair in a cache.

[Luckless]

I had somebody contact me that they had three letterboxes near my cache and they were hoping we could peacefully coexist. She sent me her letterbox information so I would see where hers were located. That's the first time I've had someone contact me about that. I had intended to move my cache come winter up by her letterbox(didn't know it was there), but guess I'll just leave it where it is. Hopefully nobody will mix them up when they hunt for them.

Also I was looking for a spot to hide a cache at a local tourist attraction. Found the perfect spot, but had to scrap it because I found a letterbox right close by that was so obvious that any cacher worth his salt would likely find it looking for my cache.

I'm willing to work with letterbox owners. I may put a cache near a letterbox, but I figure if I don't see it while I'm scouting for a hiding place then it is probably hidden well enough so most cachers won't find it either. I don't worry about it.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Luckless

[+Harry Dolphin]

The problem with Letterboxes is that they're easier to find than caches. It's disheartening to exclaim "Found it!", only to realize that it's a Letterbox, and not the cache. Okay. That's only happened to me four times. (I never did find the Letterbox near Brian's cache...)

I'm in the planning stage on a Letterbox Hybrid. If I do put it out, I will cross-index it on Letterboxing. But, otherwise, I do not access letterboxing.

I do know the difference between the two.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Letterboxing has a bad opinion of geocacher, I feel for good reason.

 

I didn't realize the animosity existed. I'd assume that letterboxers then must hate geocaching's Letterbox-Hybrid type of cache?

[+Snoogans]

I came to geocaching from the letterboxing fraternity. It never ceases to amaze me how many times the two hobbies seem to come across the lines. Letterboxing has a bad opinion of geocacher, I feel for good reason.

 

This area is a huge public flower garden and the two boxes are within a few feet of each other.

 

OKAY, so I'm picturing a letterboxer circling the flowerbed eating a jar of peanut butter and along comes this careless geocacher eating a bar of choclate and following the stupid needle on their GPSr instead of watching where they are going.

 

Well, the rest is just a 1970's candy commercial, but you get the point.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Snoogans

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Speaking for our experience in Maryland, I know of one letterbox which is located near a geocache, and it was placed there (ten feet from the cache and not as well hidden) after the geocache was already in place. Letterboxing is also a far more obscure and less well-known activity than is geocaching. I know of no animosity between letterboxers and geocachers in our state or anywhere nearby. However, in general, in my experience, letterboxers seem to pay far less attention to gaining required permissions for placement or to rules regarding placement than do geocachers. For example, all of our state parks require formal prior permission before placing any kind of geocache or letterbox on park property; this has been a requirement since late 2002. I happen to be the volunteer DNR reviewer for all geocaches and letterboxes -- placed by any and all persons from any listing service or placer organization -- for the two nearest state parks, and we have learned over the past year thnat there are at least two letterboxes located in one of the parks, and at least three located in the other one; almost all seem to have been placed after the perimssion rule was enacted, and yet none of the owners have ever even notified the park administration about the existence of their letterboxes, much less asked permission for the placement by completing and filing the required forms.

[+Trucker Lee]

I don't have a clue where any letterboxes in my neighborhood are. Could someone go out and spray paint them, or post flags above them, so that I won't hide a cache nearby?

 

Thank you.

[+GrizzFlyer]

Didn't realize there was any animosity between geocachers and letterboxers. They seem to get along OK around here, as far as I know. Even had one letterboxer place a container right on top of one of my caches, and I mean right smack-dab on top of it. I thought that was kind of bold, but since the world was still spinning, it wasn't any big deal. So, I altered my cache page to mention it and alert geocachers that there was also a LB at the cache site and to make sure they log the correct container.

[+Cache Heads]

Even had one letterboxer place a container right on top of one of my caches, and I mean right smack-dab on top of it.

Did the letterbox have peanut butter on it?

 

Good call on that one Snoogans

[+El Diablo]

I looked at the North American Letterboxing site and it seems that they only have 9,000 active members in the United States. This site gets that many new members in a month. In my area I only see 4 letterboxes versus 1000's of geocaches.

 

Letterboxing might have started before caching, but it certainly isn't the most popular. However these two should be able to share the same area.

 

El Diablo

[+Loch Cache]

I came to geocaching from the letterboxing fraternity. It never ceases to amaze me how many times the two hobbies seem to come across the lines. Letterboxing has a bad opinion of geocacher, I feel for good reason.

 

1) Jeremy has created a excellent site with good cooperation of the land owners. Oversite of where caches are placed and how close together. Maintenance of online logs. Letterboxing doen't have the oversite and the orgainzation to match.

 

2) Geocaching does seem to get both the negative and postive P.R. We are the better known of the two activities even though there was letterboxing before geocaching.

 

3) the nature of our sport allows us to have better control.

 

With all our advantages, why do we insist on placing our caches near existing letterboxes? I know of one cache in the PAC NW that even notes on the cache page that there is a letterbox within ten feet of it. (the cache was created in 2004, letterbox existed since 2001). This area is a huge public flower garden and the two boxes are within a few feet of each other. Nearest geocache to this box is .8miles away.

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. Does McDonalds leave a spot alone just because Burger King is nearby?

2. Unless you have found every Letterbox (and Mystery, and all stages of any multi within 10 miles) when you are setting up a cache you run the risk of being near someone else. Oh well, there are no monopolies on the space, just rules about distance from another GC.com box.

3. Even if the Letterbox was "there" before the cache, unless you have found it or stumble on it because it is poorly hidden, how would you know. (Plus the area is not "owned" because it is there.)

4. Once a cache is placed and active, you are not suppose to move it. (Much) I don't know any geocacher (or letterboxer) who would want to disable a perfectly good box just because one from "the other side" was nearby. I have a stage that is with in 30 feet of a letterbox. I am not recaulculting the stage just to save confusion.

5. Prevention goes along way. Since not everyone knows of letterboxing, notes like the standard geocache note would go a long way to preventing the stamp or box from disappearing. (Contrary to popular belief not everyone knows about geocaching. Just ask any bomb squad that has blown up a cache container.)

6. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live and let live.

 

My thoughts.

 

Loch Cache

 

PS, I stumbled on a letterbox while trying to be FTF one night. Turns out I was FTF on the letterbox, but not the cache. Someone who will remain nameless beat me to the cache. I never went back to check to see if the owner ever found out he was 20-30 feet from a letterbox.

[+Kacky]

I've only ever found one. It was near a cache, except that the letterbox was in a rock wall and was in plain view. There was no date on i but it seemed to be brand new since there were no names in it yet, and this was a couple of months ago so I'm sure it's gone now, just sitting in a wall where everyone could see it. Not to be mean, but it was more like litter. The geocache had already been there a lot longer. There was a note inside the letterbox that said "this is a letterbox" with no other information. I had never heard of them before so I did my own research and found out what a letterbox is, but I have yet to find that particular one listed anywhere on the internet. So I think the letterboxers are kind of disorganized. How can we co-operate if there's no clearinghouse for them, and you don't even bother to tell civilians what to do with it anyway?

Edited October 5, 2006 by Kacky

[+Moore9KSUcats]

We got interested in letterboxing in August when we accidentally found a letterbox in a park in Maryland (Sandy Point/Bay Bridge letterbox, in Sandy Point State Park). The logbook had been saturated, but the original stamp was there. Apparently the box placer is no longer letterboxing.

 

Anyway, after posting on the lbNA yahoo forum about the box, I was contacted by a nearby letterboxer in Maryland that ultimately adopted the box. It had been presumed as "missing" so no one had gone to try to find it. When we found it, we easily saw a plastic bag sticking out from under a stump. (At first, we thought it might be a geocache, but realized what it was when we opened it and saw what was in it.)

 

This had a good outcome for all... an early letterbox was found and updated, and has a new "bonus" stamp in it (carved in our honor.. so cool!), and we have started letterboxing, and have placed two boxes of our own. I just wish there were more in our area.

 

Malia

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I looked at the North American Letterboxing site and it seems that they only have 9,000 active members in the United States. This site gets that many new members in a month. In my area I only see 4 letterboxes versus 1000's of geocaches.

 

Letterboxing might have started before caching, but it certainly isn't the most popular. However these two should be able to share the same area.

 

El Diablo

Your post reminds me of a point which I forgot to make in my earlier post: there are a number of letterboxing websites, and there is little coherence or organization across them. This can make it very hard for a DNR park reviewer (such as myself) to even find the site on which a letterbox is listed, much less find the owner.