Puzzle Caches

October 3, 2006

I have been doing a few puzzle caches recently (including one that hadn't been found for nearly nine months), and I have noticed that their seems to be quite a bit of activity when they are first released (people trying to get FTF's etc), then visits tail off far more quickly than ordinary caches. So my questions are these :-

What makes a good puzzle cache? Obviously people have put a lot of time and effort in creating them, so it would be nice to get a regular stream of visitors.

How close to the final co-ordinates should the given co-ordinates be? After all, no-one likes to solve the puzzle thinking it is nearby, then have to drive miles to find it.

And are you friend or foe, do you love 'em or hate 'em?

Personally I like a puzzle that makes me think and cannot be easily Google'd (although I must admit to using Google to point me in the right direction). Ideally the location should be within 5/10 miles of the given co-ordinates. And I love them.

Current favourities are 'The Ultimate Puzzle Cache' - GCR7YF and 'If at first you don't succeed' - GCQNYM.

What do you all think?

1.7k · October 3, 2006

A quick and simple reply from me! I love setting them, thinking up ingeneous puzzles, making them tough, etc.

I HATE solving them!

There are a few around here (which were inspired by one of ours, which is great) and I haven't done any of them yet! Solved some, but not many!

Dave

1.8k · October 3, 2006

I quite like them and often return to ones that have stumped me. Many take many months of going back to before the solution dawns.

October 3, 2006

I'm not particularily fond of puzzle caches. This is mainly because I like to just... go for a cache when I'm out and about. Look down at the GPSr and see "Hey, a cache nearby. Let's go huntin'" type thing.

A puzzle cache requires preparation... prior work before leaving to find the cache, and 99% of the time, having seen the cache page itself extensively. Hence, not something you can just 'do on a whim'.

Odds are, when I have a lot of spare time (which is kinda rare lately), I'll try to solve the puzzles for a mess of them and then find a lot of them at once. But yeah... requires a lot of prior work. I like to just spur-of-the-moment cache.

October 3, 2006

I don't mind puzzle caches that can be solved by people of average intelligence (i.e. me :laughing: ). I don't see the point of puzzles that can solved only by a few people and/or require multiple email exchanges with the owner for clues. It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is. We need to keep in mind that caching is about being out in the woods looking for a cache, not sitting at home in front of Google. But each to their own - I simply ignore puzzles I can't solve.

The answer to the distance question is in the guidelines:

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Travel Bugs that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

October 3, 2006

Thanks for the comments so far. I suppose in a way it's like the question of micros, which also has the love 'em or hate 'em following.

I must admit to also trying to solve a few out of my immediate area (Derby/Notts/Leics) just to see if I can do them, even if I've no intention of going after them. Does that make me a sad old geocacher?

1.1k · October 3, 2006

We like puzzle caches; you get a greater feeling of satisfactoin when yo solve them (and lots of frustration when you don't, of course).

October 3, 2006

I think there are many subtypes of puzzles and I like some but not others. A puzzle where you need to do research to find the cache online is a little boring to me, but one where you find the information in the field I find fun.

One gripe of mine is that most puzzles are remarkably hard, and needlessly on many occasions. Each to there own though.

October 3, 2006

I only own one cache and it is a puzzle cache

It has only been found once so far, after two months

I don't know whether it is too difficult - the people who found it said they enjoyed doing it, but found it a real challenge. Which was my plan :laughing:

Something to do on those long winter evenings....

I enjoy solving them, sometimes I don't go and find them for months

October 3, 2006

Having both found and own several puzzle caches all I can say is I love doing the local ones but unless the solution is obvious I avoid then when staying away from home.... not enough time out in the fiels, unless as Alistair says they can be solved in the field. As to diff. they seem to depend on who you live near... and living near Rutson they have to be hard!!!!! Cheers Max

9.2k · October 3, 2006

Depends on the type of puzzle to be solved!

And that it's marked correctly as a puzzle. There a cache marked as a multi, that actually needs a fair bit of work on Google to find the first cache, to then find the co-ords for the next couple of caches... Yes, it's a three part multi, BUT, you have to Google to get the first co-ords.

We've done 12 puzzle caches and enjoyed them all.

G

2.3k · October 3, 2006

Thanks for the comments so far. I suppose in a way it's like the question of micros, which also has the love 'em or hate 'em following.

I LUV 'EM :rolleyes: ...as long I don't have to spend a week working out a puzzle to find 'em. :laughing:

October 3, 2006

I like them. The main attraction to me is that it gives me something to do when I'm not caching or can't get out - solve them during the week (some chance!) then get them at the weekend.

Personally I don't mind emailing the setter to get help / bounce ideas off, I think it adds to the socialness of caching. I have struck up good relationships with a number of people who have set puzzles, but few with 'normal' cache setters.

I've set 3 puzzles so far, one easy, one average, and one stinker. I accept that they are an aquired taste, but there is a small but very active subsection of cachers in Surrey who really enjoy trying to fox each other. It's not for everyone I accept, but we like it!

However they can take over your life for a while, which is not good for marital bliss I've found!!

1.7k · October 3, 2006

I like them. The main attraction to me is that it gives me something to do when I'm not caching or can't get out - solve them during the week (some chance!) then get them at the weekend.

Personally I don't mind emailing the setter to get help / bounce ideas off, I think it adds to the socialness of caching. I have struck up good relationships with a number of people who have set puzzles, but few with 'normal' cache setters.

I've set 3 puzzles so far, one easy, one average, and one stinker. I accept that they are an aquired taste, but there is a small but very active subsection of cachers in Surrey who really enjoy trying to fox each other. It's not for everyone I accept, but we like it!

However they can take over your life for a while, which is not good for marital bliss I've found!!

:laughing: I'll vouch for all of that!

Having said I hate them, needless to say, the ones I hate are those that I can't solve! We've done two of alboys puzzles and both were great fun - the third one has me stumped so far, but the short winter days are there for solving those awkward local puzzles...

The getting to know local cachers aspect is a great point - I'm in touch with a number of local cachers round here, all of whom are active in the puzzle world, and its always the puzzle caches that prompt the first e-mail!

1.8k · October 3, 2006

I confess I don't like the "I rang a a friend who gave me a clue and I checked the coordinates with the setter" type of logs. The puzzle is there to be solved, and if i can't solve it myself I am unlikly to visit the cache. PP will know I have solved severla of his puzzles, which were hard but i enjoyed solving. The other he has offered a clue, and I have refused. When it is solved, it will be more of a pleasure that way, if it isn't solved, I have plenty of other caches to go hunting.

On a different note, I do enjoy solving a puzzle before the FTF, even if I can't actually get to the cache, and then pointing out the errors or ambiguities in the puzzle to the setter! :-)

I have a file of several surrey caches I need to get round to visiting that I have solved.

2.2k · October 4, 2006

i like the puzzles that are there to make you read the info boards or similar to get better understanding of an area. again i'm not really in to the ones that require a degree in cunning and three weeks internet searching.... but each to their own as long as it's clearly marked i can ignore it if i want.

1.1k · October 4, 2006

It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this comment , I recently put out my first puzzle cache after solving a few hidden by other people - I tried to make it interesting and introduce a bit of humour so far the logs have been positive. :laughing:

Edited October 4, 2006 by The Golem

October 4, 2006

I like them. It gives us something to work on when its not possible to go out caching. We've got quite a few worked out already and waiting to be searched for when we are in the particular vacinity.

There is one however that is posing a bit of a problem and it's the nearest puzzle to our home co-ords. I've worked out the first part and the second bit has got us stumped.

October 4, 2006

It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this comment , I recently put out my first puzzle cache after solving a few hidden by other people - I tried to make it interesting and introduce a bit of humour so far the logs have been positive.

Feel free to quote me, but please have the courtesy to take the whole of the context. I said:

I don't see the point of puzzles that can [be] solved only by a few people and/or require multiple email exchanges with the owner for clues. It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is.

1.1k · October 4, 2006

It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this comment , I recently put out my first puzzle cache after solving a few hidden by other people - I tried to make it interesting and introduce a bit of humour so far the logs have been positive.

Feel free to quote me, but please have the courtesy to take the whole of the context. I said:

I don't see the point of puzzles that can [be] solved only by a few people and/or require multiple email exchanges with the owner for clues. It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is.

Fair comment :unsure:

October 4, 2006

I have mixed feelings about them. I go caching to:- get out, visit new places, for the walk and of course find plastic boxes. I do not cache to spend hours researching at the computer or spend hours trying to work out some seemingly impossible puzzle. To me that is just a waste of time

If I think I can solve a puzzle cache in around 15 minutes I will give it a go any longer than that then I head straight for the ignore button and move on.

Where I live there is at present a competition going on between a number of cachers who are setting more and more complex caches and looking at the logs these caches are mostly found by this group. At present there are 30 of these within 15 miles of my home coordinates that are on my ignore list.

That being said everyone plays the game in their own way I will just carry on ignoring them

End of moan for today :laughing:

Andy

October 4, 2006

"I don't mind puzzle caches that can be solved by people of average intelligence (i.e. me :laughing: ). I don't see the point of puzzles that can solved only by a few people and/or require multiple email exchanges with the owner for clues. It seems to me that such caches are set primarily to demonstrate to the owner how clever s/he is. We need to keep in mind that caching is about being out in the woods looking for a cache, not sitting at home in front of Google. But each to their own - I simply ignore puzzles I can't solve."

I can understand that point of view and it has some validity, but it's really no different to suggesting that caches that are set in very difficult or challenging places are done to prove how bold / daring etc the cache owner is, and I don't think that is the case. Some cachers like setting a challenge and seeing how many people rise to it and conquor it. The satisfaction of solving a puzzle can be immense, much more than spotting the stick-o-flage.

I think the beauty of caching is that there should be something for everyone, and the more types of caches aimed at different groups, with different challenges, be they cerebral or physical, the better AFAIK.

There can also often be an educational element to puzzle caches, even if they require much internet googling etc. The "X marks the spot" series that PP started off have been very interesting, and I've learnt plenty about local inventors as a result that I would never have done if all I'd done was follow the arrow to the tupperware.

As we all agree no doubt, each to their own I guess! :unsure:

2.9k · October 4, 2006

They are OK but the existence of spoiler sites shows they are not to some peoples taste including our own. We would rather be out and about than in the house solving them.

We tend to avoid them on holiday as well.

There is the side issue that they tend to be used to try and make a poor location better by the use of a clever puzzle.

October 4, 2006

...the existence of spoiler sites...

Oooo... got any examples? :laughing:

3.8k · October 4, 2006

If there is a puzzle nearby (aRRKS etc.) I will solve it to get it off my nearest list. But If I am going for a day out caching somewhere IE The Wirral, I will rule out any I cant solve within minutes (read as MOST of them :laughing: ).

Edited October 4, 2006 by Deego

October 4, 2006

There is the side issue that they tend to be used to try and make a poor location better by the use of a clever puzzle.

I agree with the implication that just because a cache is a puzzle cache it shouldn't remove the need to put the cache in a good location.

I enjoy both setting and solving puzzle caches but they are bound not to be to everyone's tastes just like easy caches in ordinary locations that happen to be motorway accessible aren't either. I certainly don't think puzzle caches do any particular harm to the game even for people who don't like them as they can be easily identified and ignored. For experienced cachers it is also pretty easy to indentify the latter type but probably not so for people new to geocaching and therefore they are more likely to put someone off the game permanently in my opinion.

October 4, 2006

So far there has one been one puzzle cache I really hated that was a 4 stage multi.

It started 25miles from home and inorder to complete each stage you needed access to the internet to solve the puzzle, so I to do 4 separate trips, as I completed each stage it took me closer to home, I was very frustrated when I worked out the last part was only 2mile from home.

The locations were nice but the way it had to be done involve covering 120miles instead of 40miles if you could access the internet on route which you couldn't

October 4, 2006

I like them. It all adds to the variety of experience. Your mission GCKZ29 was great fun, Lost in translation GCVV10 looks intriguing, and the puzzle in Rotten 14 GCVF1Q is a great example of a creative - but accessible - puzzle design.

I tend to steer away from ones that require a Ph.D in astrophysics to even understand the nature of the puzzle, let alone solve it. If it reqires specialised knowledge, it goes into the "Too Hard" tray. If I have to phone/email to solve it, then I won't.

October 4, 2006

Hi, fellow geocachers,

Re: Puzzle Caches,

Brilliant, I reckon. If you've got four hours or so one afternoon, what better than to have a stab at a multi-cache which involves either a convoluted trail, or a theme.

I'm not so much in favour of mathematics, where you have to wrestle with equations, I'd rather have something a little more cryptic to tackle. Not sure exactly how it would work.

Maybe a SuDoku puzzle where the missing co-ordinates for the next waypoint are highlighted. That'll give the player 10 minutes or so in some "scenery" to work out where next to go.

Any ideas out there?

regards from Purple Lobster.

1.6k · October 4, 2006

Puzzles that involve the old "VINEGAR" cipher gets right up my nose. Even with the right codeword/phrase, I still can't solve the sodding things!

hate 'em.

Like others have said, as long as it doesn't involve hours of research indoors, I'll give them ago as the whole point of caching is getting out there to find them.

October 4, 2006

It started 25miles from home...the last part was only 2mile from home.

If you mean that the published coords are 25 miles from home then you should mention that privately to a reviewer, as it doesn't conform to the guidelines I quoted above.

October 4, 2006

Puzzles that involve the old "VINEGAR" cipher gets right up my nose. Even with the right codeword/phrase, I still can't solve the sodding things!

Plenty of online cipher solvers around, even at least one that will crack without the key.

1.1k · October 4, 2006

Puzzles that involve the old "VINEGAR" cipher gets right up my nose. Even with the right codeword/phrase, I still can't solve the sodding things!

Try this:

http://sharkysoft.com/misc/vigenere/

If you need something that can do brute-force attacks, email me, I wrote a perl program for that (but you'll need to know perl to use it).

October 4, 2006

I think they are great, I've recenty completyed the one in Beverley GCKP55 which took about 1/2 an hour but was a great way to see around the Minster. The final cache was hidden in a great location.

I've just started setting up a series "Tower View" which are placed at 1 mile intervals east of Blackpool Tower with the idea being that you can actually see the Tower from the cache site. The first 3 are available now as traditional caches but some of the rest will definately be puzzles.

Edited October 4, 2006 by BWBlackett

October 4, 2006

It started 25miles from home...the last part was only 2mile from home.

If you mean that the published coords are 25 miles from home then you should mention that privately to a reviewer, as it doesn't conform to the guidelines I quoted above.

The caches published coords are correct for the start which is 25miles south of where I live, I'm just moan as each of my trips back and forth from each stage took me closer to home with the final part being 2miles from where I live. Last person to complete it took 2 years

Puzzled GeoCacher

October 4, 2006

Thanks again for all the replies and comments. It looks (from this thread at least) that most people that like the puzzle caches, prefer the ones that don't require Internet access to solve.

I don't mind having to do research before I set out, but, like Lakeuk, once I set out on the road to it, I don't want to have to have access to the Internet for an interim clue/puzzle.

As the dark winter evenings approach, I'm looking forward to trying to solve some of the more obscure ones, as it will be too dark to be out caching (I'm not allowed out to go wandering around woods/fields/other strange places in the dark by the wife - I think she thinks I'll get arrested!).

One day I'll get round to writing my own puzzle cache, and your comments will be usefull when I'm working it all out. I'd far rather have a cache (puzzle/multi/standard) with plenty of visitors, than one that only a few can solve/access. Now where did I put my trusty slide rule ....

October 4, 2006

Nope, don't like them particularly but each unto their own.

When working away from home I only have a couple of hours to spare if that. Therefore I tend to avoid puzzles (and multi's) if I can.

October 5, 2006

Thanks again for all the replies and comments. It looks (from this thread at least) that most people that like the puzzle caches, prefer the ones that don't require Internet access to solve.

I would argue that access to the internet is not a problem, so long as you can solve the cache before going out to find it. The last thing you want to be doing is having to access the internet or phone friends while you are on site.

Nearly all of the puzzle caches I have solved over the last few years have required internet access and the burning of a number of cycles of both computer and brain time. Usually I check in with the setter of the cache to make sure that the co-ords I have come up with are correct. The use of Memory Map helps too :-)

I have enoyed a large number of varied puzzle caches set by the North of England mob, and the crowd in Oxfordshire and Bucks especially.

Regards

Paul

October 5, 2006

Having both found and own several puzzle caches all I can say is I love doing the local ones but unless the solution is obvious I avoid then when staying away from home.... not enough time out in the fiels, unless as Alistair says they can be solved in the field. As to diff. they seem to depend on who you live near... and living near Rutson they have to be hard!!!!! Cheers Max

I also live in the near vicinity to some of Rutson's fiendish puzzles and find them quite a challenge. Personally I don't have masses of time to spend out caching and like to spend time working the puzzles out in between our caching adventures. Having a good variety of interesting caches in the area helps. I never bother with really hard puzzle caches on trips away unless I'm specifically going for one that I've solved well in advance. It’s definitely a question of quality rather than quantity for me.

Ps. Rutson's 'Poor Johnson' is a stroke of genius. I take my hat off to him on that one! Now all I've got to do is find the little bugger this weekend!

October 5, 2006

Personally I don't mind the puzzle caches.I find them a lot more rewarding (and frustrating)than just being able to get loads of easy caches.Mind you I haven't found that many puzzle caches!

It also shows the ingenuity of some of the cache setters out there.Somedays when the weather is just too bad to go out,it's quite nice to be able to do a bit of sleuthing over a hot coffee and try to work out the clues..

Saying that though, GCWWX0 was a right difficult one to complete and one that I needed a bit of help with.Maybe it's the area of the UK that it's in,but I don't think that there are many folk that will be able to put it on their found list....

October 5, 2006

Puzzle caches, some are ok, but the Surrey cachers as mentioned above have gone a little mad, let me link you to an example...

36 (of 70) puzzle caches in this area, just over half! (+ a few multis, and 22 normals)

Also I should add my opinion, as I said, some are ok, but being so young, I miss out on the wide general knowledge needed to complete some of these puzzles, for example pictures of people in the background, probably well-known personalities, quite hard to find a name from a picture :S

Edited October 5, 2006 by Edgemaster

October 6, 2006

Ps. Rutson's 'Poor Johnson' is a stroke of genius. I take my hat off to him on that one! Now all I've got to do is find the little bugger this weekend!

Agreed - I want to use the idea in France - when I feel the local cachers are up to it :rolleyes:

3.9k · October 6, 2006

Thanks guys :laughing: PJ is definately my personal favorite amongst my puzzles

1.7k · October 6, 2006

Puzzle caches, some are ok, but the Surrey cachers as mentioned above have gone a little mad, let me link you to an example...

36 (of 70) puzzle caches in this area, just over half! (+ a few multis, and 22 normals)

Also I should add my opinion, as I said, some are ok, but being so young, I miss out on the wide general knowledge needed to complete some of these puzzles, for example pictures of people in the background, probably well-known personalities, quite hard to find a name from a picture :S

i wouldn't worry mate - age is probably fairly irrelevent for most of them! they're all bloody hard! For my X marks cache, I doubt anyone will have heard of the "famous" person, be they 15 or 50 :laughing: If you do need some help though, most of the local cachers are more than happy to offer clues - and you've done our two puzzles anyway!

I do agree that surrey does seem rather weighty on the puzzles at the mo. Watch this space though, as we're planning some more unusual trads!

October 6, 2006

I'm quite new to this and I like puzzles. I think all the caches I hide will be puzzles, makes life more interesting :laughing:

October 7, 2006

It also shows the ingenuity of some of the cache setters out there.Somedays when the weather is just too bad to go out,it's quite nice to be able to do a bit of sleuthing over a hot coffee and try to work out the clues..

Saying that though, GCWWX0 was a right difficult one to complete and one that I needed a bit of help with.Maybe it's the area of the UK that it's in,but I don't think that there are many folk that will be able to put it on their found list....

Having had a series of caches solved within a week of placing, the plan for this one was to see if it was possible to make folks work a little harder and maybe see it if could last a month before being found. As it was I forgot that it went live the first weekend of the Scottish school holidays so it only lasted about 36 hours before thunderbird30 and HighlandNick cracked it. Mind you there are at least half a dozen others who have tried, failed and emailed - though not as yet DNF'd.

Personaly I love Puzzle caches as all the hard work that goes into cracking them makes the find seem so much sweeter - and its horses for courses, there does need to be variety in cache difficulty and in the physical effort needed to reach them.

October 9, 2006

I declare my vital statistics: have 5 active puzzles, done 30+ ( about 10% of my total number of caches )

Puzzle caches fall into several different 'groups':

1) The nature of the puzzle itself is 'king' and the effort reward is in solving a different and interesting puzzle rather than retrieving the cache. A classic in this vein is Bongard. I know exactly where the cache is but I suspect I will never bother to retrieve it.

2) Cyphers - in a true sense these are not puzzle caches, just cyphers and those who understand cyphers and/or have a drawer full of cypher tools, find them trivial. I've done a few only when I thought the final cache location might be interesting.

3) Research puzzles: in principle nothing wrong with these. They allow you to sit at home with the PC etc in the rain amusing yourself. A good example one I really enjoyed in this vein was 'X' marks the spot. In my research I discovered a host of fascinating facts about a host of persons unrelated to the cache, and it was all thoroughly enjoyable.

4) Puzzles set seemingly mostly for the benefit of the cache setter. There are not many of these but April Fool is a candidate. Having said that those that have found it, all four of them, would vociferously disagree.

5) Puzzles possibly wrongly categorised as puzzles. Some such as Dulce can actually themselves be quite interesting, but really should be Multis.

So as to my own puzzles caches: ........ hmm into which categories do they fall?

I probably have:

1 cache in group 1

2/3 definitely in group 3

1/2 possibly in group 5

Finally one more the interesting thought about puzzles and caches. Setting a 1/1 puzzle is actually quite difficult. Is it a puzzle if its only 1 star? My The View is a two star puzzle and is intended to be easy. I'd like to see a few more 'easy' puzzles. Splash is another 'easier' puzzle in a different vein.

Each to their own ... but be aware that 'puzzles' have a wide definition.

1.6k · October 9, 2006

Kewfriend,

I think you missed off the other type of "puzzle" cache and that is the cache that is classified as a puzzle because you have to have found another cache or other caches to retrieve info/co-ords for it to be found, whereas the cache itself is or may well be a Trad. usually 'bonus' caches or the last of a series etc.

You are so right when you highlight the various and numerous types of Puzzle/Mystery caches. Personally, I too, tend to work around the cypher puzzles. Even with the codeword AND a cypher tool, I still couldn't get the answer because it was the wrong cypher decrypt tool.

Oh well.

Oss!

October 9, 2006

I fall in both camps: like them and hate them. Of course when I can solve the puzzles I throw my chest out and feel the surge of acomplishment. And I must admit when I fail at one I HATE them, and might not post a DNF. But that's another topic for sure. I have hidden a few puzzles and one really nasty one that has been found only twice in over six months. I am no puzzle freak and I respect and understand those who do not care for this kind of cache. In my area my puzzle has gotten a few of the locals to admit they tried, didn't solve, and didn't DNF. Its ok by me. We all play our own way. I hope to get some more attempts on mine, but I won't stop hidding more traditional ones.

The two who have solved my cache post notes trying to get others to try it, challenging them and claiming their exclusivity.

October 9, 2006

I fall in both camps: like them and hate them. Of course when I can solve the puzzles I throw my chest out and feel the surge of acomplishment. And I must admit when I fail at one I HATE them, and might not post a DNF. But that's another topic for sure. I have hidden a few puzzles and one really nasty one that has been found only twice in over six months. I am no puzzle freak and I respect and understand those who do not care for this kind of cache. In my area my puzzle has gotten a few of the locals to admit they tried, didn't solve, and didn't DNF. Its ok by me. We all play our own way. I hope to get some more attempts on mine, but I won't stop hidding more traditional ones.

The two who have solved my cache post notes trying to get others to try it, challenging them and claiming their exclusivity.

May ask which cache is that?

Of course I could look myself but I'm just far too busy at work! :anibad:

Puzzle Caches

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment