Owner Deleting A DNF?!?

[+The Herd]

We recently tried to find a new cache in our area. When we got there, we found it was in the middle of a Maple Stand, and had REALLY bad sat. reception. There was however, a field right next to the plot, so we stepped out there to get our reception back. Well, after a LONG time searching, we gave up. I posted a DNF. Isn't that the right thing to do?

Fast forward 2 days later. I met up with another local cacher and went back out to look for this cache. Again, both GPSrs led us right to where we had been looking before, and we even expanded our search out 30 feet like before...JUST IN CASE...and again, no cache could we find. We both posted DNFs on it. The logs were NOT offensive, just basically said, we looked...again...couldn't find it. Maybe the owner could double check his coords.

I woke today to see that all 3 of our DNFs had been deleted. Now, seeing all the talk of DNF logs in the forums lately...I realized that they are REALLY helpful to other cachers. Strange thing is...he left the DNF log by a local well known cacher.

My question is, is it common practice to delete peoples DNF logs? This is the first it has ever happened to me, and I am not sure what the "etiquette" on it is. I am glad there is a DNF option so I know what caches to avoid.

[+New England n00b]

We recently tried to find a new cache in our area. When we got there, we found it was in the middle of a Maple Stand, and had REALLY bad sat. reception. There was however, a field right next to the plot, so we stepped out there to get our reception back. Well, after a LONG time searching, we gave up. I posted a DNF. Isn't that the right thing to do?

Fast forward 2 days later. I met up with another local cacher and went back out to look for this cache. Again, both GPSrs led us right to where we had been looking before, and we even expanded our search out 30 feet like before...JUST IN CASE...and again, no cache could we find. We both posted DNFs on it. The logs were NOT offensive, just basically said, we looked...again...couldn't find it. Maybe the owner could double check his coords.

I woke today to see that all 3 of our DNFs had been deleted. Now, seeing all the talk of DNF logs in the forums lately...I realized that they are REALLY helpful to other cachers. Strange thing is...he left the DNF log by a local well known cacher.

My question is, is it common practice to delete peoples DNF logs? This is the first it has ever happened to me, and I am not sure what the "etiquette" on it is. I am glad there is a DNF option so I know what caches to avoid.

I had some Dummy () delete one of my DNF logs on one of his caches, but it was probably because it made ME look like a fool, not him.

 

I'd ask the cache owner why they deleted them. Maybe they got confused and thought that they were duplicates or something innocent like that, or clicked too many time. I've never deleted a log, so I don't know what kind of mis-clicking could occur.

 

Just be polite and ask what's up. Could very well be an innocent mistake.

[+briansnat]

Its not a common practice and its a pretty poor practice. There is important information in DNF logs, most important of all it gives others an idea as to how hard the cache is to find.

 

If I see nothing but smiley faces in the logs, I will assume the cache is an easy find and I'll give up after a short search if I don't come up with it becuse I will figure that its missing. If I see some DNFs sprinkled among the logs I'll know that it isn't a slam dunk find and put in the extra effort to find it.

 

I'm not sure why anybody would delete DNF logs. Probably because the owner thinks your DNF might discourage other searchers and wants to "sanitize" the cache logs. It's not fair to other geocachers to do this.

Edited October 1, 2006 by briansnat

[+DaveA]

I would just ask the owner why he deleted the logs. I am just guessing, but if he left another cacher's DNf and deleted yours perhaps it was because you posted a DNF twice.

 

Just guessing. Generally if I can't find a cache I will post a DNF, but if I go back and still don't find it I don't post another DNF. I will only post again if and when I find it.

 

I could maybe see the cache owner mistaking you for a person who wanted to discourage others by posting multiple DNFs.

 

There are some 3rd party apps that some use with caching that only show the last 4 visits to the cache. If all four of the last visits are DNFs many will just skip the cache figuring it isn't there. When I used this app, I did make that assumption.

 

So, maybe this owner also is familiar with this app and doesn't want 4 DNFs in a row?

 

Again, I would just ask. There is probably nothing at all malicious in his intent.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

We recently tried to find a new cache in our area. When we got there, we found it was in the middle of a Maple Stand, and had REALLY bad sat. reception. There was however, a field right next to the plot, so we stepped out there to get our reception back. Well, after a LONG time searching, we gave up. I posted a DNF. Isn't that the right thing to do?

Fast forward 2 days later. I met up with another local cacher and went back out to look for this cache. Again, both GPSrs led us right to where we had been looking before, and we even expanded our search out 30 feet like before...JUST IN CASE...and again, no cache could we find. We both posted DNFs on it. The logs were NOT offensive, just basically said, we looked...again...couldn't find it. Maybe the owner could double check his coords.

I woke today to see that all 3 of our DNFs had been deleted. Now, seeing all the talk of DNF logs in the forums lately...I realized that they are REALLY helpful to other cachers. Strange thing is...he left the DNF log by a local well known cacher.

My question is, is it common practice to delete peoples DNF logs? This is the first it has ever happened to me, and I am not sure what the "etiquette" on it is. I am glad there is a DNF option so I know what caches to avoid.

I like DNF's. I like to leave them when I cannot find a cache, and I like to read them when logged by those who hunted for our caches or for any of our favorite caches which we have watchlited or bookmarked, as they are part of the chronicle of the history of the cache. And, I put every bit as much effort and TLC into logging my DNFs as I do into my find logs. Many of my DNF logs are much more hilarious and entertaining than my find logs!

 

And, to answer your question, no, it is not at all common practice to delete DNFs and it is extremely unusual. Assuming that the story is as you have told it, it occurs to me that the cache owner may need a checkup from the neck up!

[+IV_Warrior]

I agree, e-mail the cache owner and ask why. I don't think any legitimate logs should be deleted, unless they're loaded with profanity or similar. I've left multiple DNF's on caches when I've made multiple trips and came up empty. In one case, the cache owner was amused as it was a simple cache I was just overlooking. He even e-mailed and asked if I wanted a hint, as I had a hundred or more finds at the time, and newbies were logging stuff like "my first cache, found it quickly, I'm hooked".......

 

I also had a cache go missing recently, and neither of the 2 cachers that looked for it (that I know of) logged a DNF. If I hadn't gotten a PM from one, and an e-mail from a friend of the other, I wouldn't have known they'd looked, and the cache would likely still be missing, as I had no way of knowing it was gone. So, keep logging your DNF's when you don't find a cache.

[+The Leprechauns]

I have posted up to five DNF's on a single cache. I like recording each adventure that I have when seeking a cache, regardless of whether it's successful. Often, the DNF logs are far more interesting and funny. I try not to assume that the cache is missing or that the hider screwed up. I always begin by blaming myself unless there is an obvious issue like a bulldozed pile of dirt at ground zero.

 

If someone deleted my DNF log, I'd be mildly upset. I would likely write to the owner to have a dialogue about it. If I could not resolve it successfully, I would close by telling the owner that I wouldn't be seeking out that cache again, or any others that he owned. Why waste my time? I have no problem with logs being deleted due to profanity, attacks against other people, etc. But if I've said nothing wrong, and my log is arbitrarily deleted, well, there are hundreds of thousands of other caches to go look for.

[+emurock]

Deleting a DNF that just not right.

[+The Herd]

I've sent an email to the cache owner. So far no response. I may understand him deleting one of my DNFs, but deleting both is what surprised me. Also the fact that he deleted a DNF from another caching team. A DNF from a well known cacher in the area, was left intact. Just confused, thanks for the input.

 

Amber

[+1stimestar]

Maybe he doesn't want that many showing up because then he would be responsible for making a maintenance visit to see if it's still there.

[+AJB3023]

As a cache hunter I would want good informative DNF's posted so I could those to assist me. You make sure that I do something or check something that the poster didn't check or do. As a hider I would want them to help me monitor my cache. Unless they were really nasty (Profanity) replies,I would leave them posted so others would gain info from them. Really nasty replies would be deleted and an email sent to the poster to feel free to report the DNF again but to clean up his language.

[+Deliveryguy428]

We both posted DNFs on it. The logs were NOT offensive, just basically said, we looked...again...couldn't find it. Maybe the owner could double check his coords.

 

Might just me, but maybe the bold part of the quote rubbed him the wrong way?? I agree, don't delete a DNF, they tend to help cachers who want to come look for a particular cache.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Fast forward 2 days later. I met up with another local cacher and went back out to look for this cache. Again, both GPSrs led us right to where we had been looking before, and we even expanded our search out 30 feet like before...JUST IN CASE...and again, no cache could we find. We both posted DNFs on it. The logs were NOT offensive, just basically said, we looked...again...couldn't find it. Maybe the owner could double check his coords.

 

I do not understand deleting DNF logs. I've logged 132 DNFs. Okay, I do not log all of my DNFs, especially multiple ones. But, I am quite capable of being blind and missing obvious things. On the other fin, 36 of my DNFs are now archived. Probably half of those as a result of my DNF (in addition to other DNFs).

But, wow! You searched out to thirty feet from ground zero?!? Half my finds today were fifty to seventy feet from ground zero. (We will ignore the people who deliberately post bad coordinates.)

Since it was a newby whose cache you were searching for, perhaps he is sensitive about having bad coordinates? Some cache hiders consider it an affront when you tell them their coords are off. I had a find deleted for saying that the cache was one hundred seventy feet from ground zero... (Relogged: SLTNLN.)

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Deleting any log should only be done in extreme situations (if at all) as the logs comprise the history of the cache. Continue logging your DNFs as these provide valuable information (too many people don't log DNFs).

[+Kit Fox]

If the owner won't respond to your email, bookmark his cache with some "cachy" name like My DNFs. Make sure the bookmark is visible, so everyone will see the DNFs that the owner is "Sanitizing."

[+The Herd]

Ohh...making a bookmark...now THAT is a good idea! lol!

Seriously though...on our first attempt, we expanded our search to include just about the entire plot of woods we were in. I will admit, on the second attempt, we only expanded it about 30 feet....maybe a bit more.

I still have not heard from the cache owner. The team I was with on my second attempt and I have both reposted DNFs on the cache. Guess we will wait to see how long those stay on there.

I agree with pretty much everyone here that DNFs really help you weed out what caches you want to do. I also see them as a way for the owner to see if s/he maybe needs to check up on the cache. On our run a few days ago, we avoided lots of caches because most of the recent logs were dnfs. I still don't get it...

[nobby.nobbs]

of course if you are sure it's not there then there's always the needs maintenance option. but deleteing a dnf... odd

[+The Herd]

I believe it's there...I just REALLY believe the coords are way off. Owner says they checked on it before our second visit, but mentions nothing of using the GPSr to double check the coords. And I know from experiance how bad the reception can be in that area. The page states it is a quick grab and go...but...I think that if that were the case, one of the 4 people that looked for it would have found it. That is what leads me to believe maybe there is an issue with the coords.

[+benh57]

I do not understand deleting DNF logs. I've logged 132 DNFs. Okay, I do not log all of my DNFs, especially multiple ones. But, I am quite capable of being blind and missing obvious things. On the other fin, 36 of my DNFs are now archived. Probably half of those as a result of my DNF (in addition to other DNFs).

But, wow! You searched out to thirty feet from ground zero?!? Half my finds today were fifty to seventy feet from ground zero. (We will ignore the people who deliberately post bad coordinates.)

 

Interesting... I see folks saying this, but i've found 82 caches now with my 60CSX, and some with google maps, and never seen GZ be more than 20 feet off. Usually its pretty much right on. Maybe i'm getting good reception due to the expensive GPS

 

(also: all my finds so far are city caches. So, rarely is there too much tree cover... depends on your area i suppose)

Edited October 2, 2006 by benh57

[+DaveA]

On our run a few days ago, we avoided lots of caches because most of the recent logs were dnfs. I still don't get it...

 

See my previous post about how some 3rd party apps only show the most recent logs. Just as you avoided some caches because the most recent logs showed DNFs, maybe the cache owner didn't want too many of the most recent logs showing the same. You posted a DNF twice which might be an issue. There is no rule against doing so and I am certainly not saying you are wrong for doing so, but consider how the cache owner might take that if s/he knows it is there.

 

If 4 people head out independently of one another and all 4 post DNFs I would avoid the cache myself figuring it probably is AWOL, but if 2 people each post 2 DNFs I would just assume those 2 people couldn't find it, not that it was necessarily missing.

 

Again, just email the owner and politely ask what is up. Chances are whether you agree with the owner's rationale or not, there is nothing evil in his/her intentions.

[+DaveA]

 

Interesting... I see folks saying this, but i've found 82 caches now with my 60CSX, and some with google maps, and never seen GZ be more than 20 feet off. Usually its pretty much right on. Maybe i'm getting good reception due to the expensive GPS

 

Nope, you just got lucky so far.

 

You can have the world's greatest GPSr, but if the hider had a lesser model then their coords will be off.

 

Even when I am getting a WAAS signal with my GPSr (Magellan Color) I frequently find the cache location to be off by 40 or so feet.

 

I think you will find most cachers consider being 40ft off entirely within the normal range.

 

Now, unfortunately, I have to inform you of Murphy's Law. Because you posted what you did you will never again find a cache within 20 feet of what your GPSr shows as ground zero. Don't hate the messenger, you cursed yourself

[+cache_test_dummies]

I had some Dummy () delete one of my DNF logs on one of his caches, but it was probably because it made ME look like a fool, not him.

Hey! The reason I deleted one of your DNFs was because you logged the same DNF twice! I felt that it was appropriate to delete one of them, since logging the same DNF multiple times in order to artificially inflate your DNF count could be considered to be cheating.

 

[+Katydid & Miles Stone]

If you don’t get satisfaction , you can start a bookmark like this creative cacher:

 

caches for which my logs have been deleted

 

The bookmark shows up on their cache page and I don’t believe they can delete it.

[+New England n00b]

I had some Dummy () delete one of my DNF logs on one of his caches, but it was probably because it made ME look like a fool, not him.

Hey! The reason I deleted one of your DNFs was because you logged the same DNF twice! I felt that it was appropriate to delete one of them, since logging the same DNF multiple times in order to artificially inflate your DNF count could be considered to be cheating.

 

[Clan Riffster]

i've found 82 caches with my 60CSX, and never seen GZ be more than 20 feet off.

For what it's worth, I also own a 60CSx. During maintanance visits to one of my puzzle hides I find the coords are sometimes 5' off, sometimes 50' off, probably due to the heavy tree canopy. Because of that, I left a dead give away hint.

 

Back on topic: I've never considered deleting a log, even one that was critical of my cache. It's all part of the history. I guess if someone posted detailed instructions on how to solve one of my puzzles, I might delete it, but I'd give the poster the chance to edit it first.

[+The Herd]

Well, I still haven't heard back from the owner regarding the deletion of the DNFs...BUT...out of curiousity, I went back to look at the cache page to see if anyone else had found it. Seems we WERE right about the coords being off, because the reviewer update the coords, and when I mapped it...it shows it being on the complete opposite side of the rest stop...hmmm.

[Team CDCB]

If you don’t get satisfaction , you can start a bookmark like this creative cacher:

 

caches for which my logs have been deleted

 

The bookmark shows up on their cache page and I don’t believe they can delete it.

Wow... I'd be temtped to delete some of those logs. I guess the cacher is attempting to tell a story over a number of logs or something, but especially that first one is just a rant on Canadian flag waving... it has NOTHING to do with the cache whatsoever.

 

All of his/her log tend to be rambling bits of non-sense that only make sense when pieced together. I suppose that makes it somewhat more interesting than a simple SL TNLN, but it when I'm looking through the logs I'm generally looking for info about the cache (easy or hard to find, should bring something extra, etc) and/or interesting stories related to that cache. Having to look back and forth through multiple cache pages to find this guys life story just isn't what I'm, personally, in to.

 

But that's just me.

[+Glenn]

Well, I still haven't heard back from the owner regarding the deletion of the DNFs...BUT...out of curiousity, I went back to look at the cache page to see if anyone else had found it. Seems we WERE right about the coords being off, because the reviewer update the coords, and when I mapped it...it shows it being on the complete opposite side of the rest stop...hmmm.

Does the cache have a high difficulty rating?

I've visited some caches where the owner purposely doesn't put the cache at the coords. Then they list it with a high difficulty. I don't like the practice but I've seen it before.

[+uxorious]

While reading this thread , I thought about what it would take for me to delete a log, any log. The usual jumps to mind. Something I wouldn't want my kids or grandkids to read. A log posted by someone and I had positive proof they never went to the cache, that sort of thing.

 

But reading this thread shows another reason. I would delete any log that was trying to make a political point. If you can force your political view onto my cache page by bookmarking then that is just wrong. (This would be true whether I agreed with you or not. Politics just don't belong here.)

Edited October 3, 2006 by uxorious

[+The Herd]

Well, I still haven't heard back from the owner regarding the deletion of the DNFs...BUT...out of curiousity, I went back to look at the cache page to see if anyone else had found it. Seems we WERE right about the coords being off, because the reviewer update the coords, and when I mapped it...it shows it being on the complete opposite side of the rest stop...hmmm.

Does the cache have a high difficulty rating?

I've visited some caches where the owner purposely doesn't put the cache at the coords. Then they list it with a high difficulty. I don't like the practice but I've seen it before.

 

Well, I remember the cache page saying it was a quick park and grab, so I double checked. It is listed as a 1/1. If the reviewer had to update the coords, that means the coords were more than 528 feet off...now, I expanded my search...but not THAT far!!!!!!!

 

Just a side note. Posted a needs maint. log on a cache we found today that we couldn't even sign. My needs maint. log got deleted. Different cache...different owner. Deleted ours and posted their own about how they would be out to replace the log when they could.

[+Renegade Knight]

Typically it's bad form to delete DNF logs. I've been requested to change a DNF log because it was a major spoiler (yeah, like it helped me find the cache!) and that's about it.

 

I'd of emailed just as you did, but not lose sleep over it either.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Just a side note. Posted a needs maint. log on a cache we found today that we couldn't even sign. My needs maint. log got deleted. Different cache...different owner. Deleted ours and posted their own about how they would be out to replace the log when they could.

 

Now that's a pet peeve of mine. On the receiving end it's like being berated in front of God and everyone. A simple email or even a regular log describing the cache would point out the issue. A good cacher will get around to maintaining the cache. The NM log works when the cacher is out of action and causes Groundspeak to follow up directly. It's a higher level wack up side the head.

[+Aquacache]

...Just a side note. Posted a needs maint. log on a cache we found today that we couldn't even sign. My needs maint. log got deleted. Different cache...different owner. Deleted ours and posted their own about how they would be out to replace the log when they could.

 

Now that's a pet peeve of mine. On the receiving end it's like being berated in front of God and everyone. A simple email or even a regular log describing the cache would point out the issue. A good cacher will get around to maintaining the cache. The NM log works when the cacher is out of action and causes Groundspeak to follow up directly. It's a higher level wack up side the head.

Not positive about this, but I don't think a Needs Maintenance log sends any flags to GC.com or to the reviewer; only a note to the cache owner. Someone else can correct me if I'm mistaken. If this is indeed the case, what difference does it make if someone posts a NM log or mentions the maintenance concerns in a Found log? Either way the cache has issues that need addressed.

[+PAWSitraction]

...Just a side note. Posted a needs maint. log on a cache we found today that we couldn't even sign. My needs maint. log got deleted. Different cache...different owner. Deleted ours and posted their own about how they would be out to replace the log when they could.

 

Now that's a pet peeve of mine. On the receiving end it's like being berated in front of God and everyone. A simple email or even a regular log describing the cache would point out the issue. A good cacher will get around to maintaining the cache. The NM log works when the cacher is out of action and causes Groundspeak to follow up directly. It's a higher level wack up side the head.

No, it doesn't. Needs Maintenance notes do not go to the reviewer; just the cache owner.

Interestingly, Deleting a NM log will not remove the NM flag from the cache; only an "Owner Maintenance" log will do that. So the cache with the NM log still has that NM attribute...it's just that nobody knows, now, exactly why it NM, so it's more than likely subsequent cachers who try to find that cache won't have any clue they need to bring a piece of paper to act as a substitute log.

 

EDIT: I take it back. The owners disabled the cache until they can get it fixed. Good on them.

Edited October 4, 2006 by PAWSitraction

[+briansnat]

Now that's a pet peeve of mine. On the receiving end it's like being berated in front of God and everyone. A simple email or even a regular log describing the cache would point out the issue. A good cacher will get around to maintaining the cache. The NM log works when the cacher is out of action and causes Groundspeak to follow up directly. It's a higher level wack up side the head.

 

I think by considering it any kind of wack up side the head, you are making more out of it is than it should be. A needs maintenace log is not an affront, it's simply a log type that says your cache needs attention. I fear that attitudes such as yours could cause some people to be hesitant to use the option.

 

As a cache owner I appreciate them. I have nearly 140 active caches so I get a lot of logs for my caches on some weekends and don't have a chance to read every one, so a needs maintenance log stands out from the pack and gets my attention - which is the entire point of them.

Edited October 4, 2006 by briansnat

[+baloo&bd]

There are valid reasons, most of them already mentioned, for deleting DNF logs. One, however, i wanted to give an example of.

 

As a cache owner, seeker, and GSAK user who use to use paper, I am aware of the 5 log limit on PQ's as well as the desire to fit everthing you can on 1 page of paper, so I will go through my caches on a regular basis to see if there are any "extra" type logs. Sometimes someone will drop a bug in and out for mileage (I send a note and delete it since it does not affect the bugs log) however for the most part there is no others that I have done it to save one type.

 

I have had cachers post DNFs like "Saw this pop up on my screen and realized it was on the other side of the tollway so decided to do it another time" or "Started to drive to the cache and realized I was late picking up son from bball, will look for it another time" or my favorite "saw the last log was a dnf and decided not to drive that far until someone else found it". All are valid logs as NOTES, however for the reason I mentioned, I may still ask if they would mind deleting it.

 

I have deleted a total of 5 of these over the last 3 years or so (yes, they are all actual, but not exact, logs) and only had to delete one because of profanity (dropped their GPS and broke the screen).

 

Having said this, a cache owner is doing himself more of a disservice than the hiders. I think someone mentioned previously if they see DNF's, they may spend a little longer looking for it thinking it is just a little harder than anticipated, especially if the owner verifies it is still there. The owner does however have the right to delete and some are just a little more liberal with that feature than others.

[+Nerves]

Hmmmm...well, I just had two of my logs deleted. One was for a DNF for a cache that seems to get muggled often. Thought it would be nice to let the owner know that 3 of us couldn't find the cache so maybe it was missing. He happened to own the other DNF that the 3 of us couldn't find also. I added in that log that it was not really a one terrain and difficult for me to traverse on crutches so I probably wouldn't be back.

 

I wrote an email to the guy and he hasn't responded as of yet. Interestingly, I happened to break my leg at one of this guy's caches one year ago and I still haven't recuperated after two surgeries to reconstruct it. Guess fate is telling me to avoid all XX Eagle caches.