Garmin 60Csx Accuracy

[DogFleazJR]

I just purchased a new 60CSx and I am disappointed in the accuracy of the unit. I’m trying to figure out if I got a dud and should return it or if my expectations are just too high for the technology.

 

I have owned a Garmin GPS V for the past five years and have used it around the world. The unit has worked well for me, but I figured it was time to move up to the latest technology, so I went all out for the 60CSx

 

I did not expect the 60CSx to be more accurate than my old V, but more reliable under difficult GPS conditions – under dense canopy, near large rocks, near cliffs and other obstructions. Said another way, I expected that, in a large field with a full, unobstructed view of the sky, my old V and new 60Cx would both indicate about the same +/- accuracy, but under tree cover, the 60Cx would indicate a tighter +/- accuracy.

 

It has not worked out that way. My old V consistently matches or exceeds the 60CSx in almost every situation. What is strange is that the 60Cx picks up more satellite signals and the signals show stronger than the V (WAAS has been enabled on both, and nearly all the satellites today indicated WAAS capability) but the accuracy of the old V is consistently better. We tried a geocache today using both units. Found it easily with the ol’ V, the 60Cx was flipping all over the place and finally settled on a point 50 feet from the actual cache. The 60Cx accuracy was never better than 65 feet under the big oaks here in North Jersey. This is where I was expecting the 60Cx to really shine.

 

I did a hard reset on the unit and let it boot up fully to ensure it loaded the latest satellite data. This seems to have helped get the accuracy consistently under +/- 30 ft, but the unit is still no better than my old V – in clear-sky view or under the trees. I’ve tried using brand new alkaline batteries and rechargeable NiMH, with no recognizable difference. The unit shipped with software v3.0 and GPS SW v2.8.

 

I’m just curious what other’s experiences are with these units. I’m thinking this one is a dud and I should send it back on Monday. For the money, I was really expecting a much more significant advance in performance vs my five year old unit. Any thoughts?

[kb9nvh]

I lock on roads OFF. Also turn off WAAS just for something to try.

 

ALSO, #1 update your firmware. These units had bad problems before the recent firmware of a few months ago.

 

let us know

 

 

I just purchased a new 60CSx and I am disappointed in the accuracy of the unit. I’m trying to figure out if I got a dud and should return it or if my expectations are just too high for the technology.

 

I have owned a Garmin GPS V for the past five years and have used it around the world. The unit has worked well for me, but I figured it was time to move up to the latest technology, so I went all out for the 60CSx

 

I did not expect the 60CSx to be more accurate than my old V, but more reliable under difficult GPS conditions – under dense canopy, near large rocks, near cliffs and other obstructions. Said another way, I expected that, in a large field with a full, unobstructed view of the sky, my old V and new 60Cx would both indicate about the same +/- accuracy, but under tree cover, the 60Cx would indicate a tighter +/- accuracy.

 

It has not worked out that way. My old V consistently matches or exceeds the 60CSx in almost every situation. What is strange is that the 60Cx picks up more satellite signals and the signals show stronger than the V (WAAS has been enabled on both, and nearly all the satellites today indicated WAAS capability) but the accuracy of the old V is consistently better. We tried a geocache today using both units. Found it easily with the ol’ V, the 60Cx was flipping all over the place and finally settled on a point 50 feet from the actual cache. The 60Cx accuracy was never better than 65 feet under the big oaks here in North Jersey. This is where I was expecting the 60Cx to really shine.

 

I did a hard reset on the unit and let it boot up fully to ensure it loaded the latest satellite data. This seems to have helped get the accuracy consistently under +/- 30 ft, but the unit is still no better than my old V – in clear-sky view or under the trees. I’ve tried using brand new alkaline batteries and rechargeable NiMH, with no recognizable difference. The unit shipped with software v3.0 and GPS SW v2.8.

 

I’m just curious what other’s experiences are with these units. I’m thinking this one is a dud and I should send it back on Monday. For the money, I was really expecting a much more significant advance in performance vs my five year old unit. Any thoughts?

[+Timpat]

Wow, I've had great results with my 60Cx. In fact it constantly out performs my 60C and my Legend. I survey and always carry my 60Cx along and it always gets me with 2-3 meters (~6-10') of control points, sometimes even better. Sounds like you've done everything right that you can do. You say it came with SW v2.80. We can't upgrade to that yet. I'm running SW v2.70 from the WebUpdater. I wonder if v2.80 is causing what you are seeing? You could download SW v2.70 to see if this helps before going to drastic measures like sending it in for a replacement, but you'll lose the latest one doing so. It can't be too long before v2.80 is available to the public and you can upgrade back up then. Just some thoughts.

[andman]

I'm in northern NJ. I also had the GPS V and the GPSMAP 60CS (NOT the new x model, the older one).

 

My 60CS was more accurate than my GPS V. Knowing that, I can only assume that the newer 60CSx would be even more accurate than the GPS V.

 

So, I'd assume something was wrong.

[andman]

Wow, I've had great results with my 60Cx. In fact it constantly out performs my 60C and my Legend. I survey and always carry my 60Cx along and it always gets me with 2-3 meters (~6-10') of control points, sometimes even better. Sounds like you've done everything right that you can do. You say it came with SW v2.80. We can't upgrade to that yet. I'm running SW v2.70 from the WebUpdater. I wonder if v2.80 is causing what you are seeing? You could download SW v2.70 to see if this helps before going to drastic measures like sending it in for a replacement, but you'll lose the latest one doing so. It can't be too long before v2.80 is available to the public and you can upgrade back up then. Just some thoughts.

You need to use Webupdater to get the latest software I was told, is that true?

[+El Diablo]

I also used a Garmin V for years before moving up to the 60Csx. I'll take the 60CSx any day. As far as accuracy...they are the same. The difference is in the ability to lock and hold the lock. It also auto routes faster than the Garmin V.

 

El Diablo

[+hogrod]

Said another way, I expected that, in a large field with a full, unobstructed view of the sky, my old V and new 60Cx would both indicate about the same +/- accuracy, but under tree cover, the 60Cx would indicate a tighter +/- accuracy

 

If your talking about the units claimed accuracy don't count on that to much, it's just the units estimated accuracy and everyone would probably agree it's a conservative number on the 60/76X models. My legendC quite often tells me it has 7ft accuracy when the 60cx says 18-20ft, yet when going to a cache the 60cx gets me closer.

Sometimes I can get closer to the cache with my legendC than with my 60cx, but both are always within 10-20ft of each other. 99% of the time under heavy tree cover the 60cx is closer to the mark than my legendC.

[DogFleazJR]

I lock on roads OFF. Also turn off WAAS just for something to try.

 

ALSO, #1 update your firmware. These units had bad problems before the recent firmware of a few months ago.

 

 

WAAS definitely helps. Out in the street just now I could only get +/- 100 ft at best with the WAAS off and dropped to +/- 19 feet with it enabled.

 

I'm pretty sure I had the lock on roads off before I did the reset, but I'll try it again tomorrow ensuring that it is off.

 

I will probably also "update" with v2.7 'cause I don't really have anything to lose. They must have just recently started shipping with this v2.8 and maybe there is a problem with it (maybe why they haven't updated the webupdater).

 

OK, here's another wierd thing. I have seen others mention that they can get a lock inside their house. If I start the unit up outside and get a lock, I can walk into my house and it will maintain the signal. Signal strength goes down, but the unit seems to be actively tracking something (bars go up and down, satellites go in and out). Right now I have +/- 37 ft sitting in my kitchen with seven active satellites. But if I select a waypoint a few miles away, the bearing arrow does not move. Also, the little red bullet on the satellite page does not move as I move around the house. So even though the GPS says it has signal and a stated accuracy, it aint really tracking anything. Not sure what all this means, but it makes me kind of doubt the accuracy reported by the unit.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the replys.

[+EraSeek]

Said another way, I expected that, in a large field with a full, unobstructed view of the sky, my old V and new 60Cx would both indicate about the same +/- accuracy, but under tree cover, the 60Cx would indicate a tighter +/- accuracy

 

If your talking about the units claimed accuracy don't count on that to much, it's just the units estimated accuracy and everyone would probably agree it's a conservative number on the 60/76X models. My legendC quite often tells me it has 7ft accuracy when the 60cx says 18-20ft, yet when going to a cache the 60cx gets me closer.

 

This is exactly true! It is an overly conservative number that means little as to actual accuracy.

[+EraSeek]

OK, here's another wierd thing. I have seen others mention that they can get a lock inside their house. If I start the unit up outside and get a lock, I can walk into my house and it will maintain the signal. Signal strength goes down, but the unit seems to be actively tracking something (bars go up and down, satellites go in and out). Right now I have +/- 37 ft sitting in my kitchen with seven active satellites. But if I select a waypoint a few miles away, the bearing arrow does not move. Also, the little red bullet on the satellite page does not move as I move around the house. So even though the GPS says it has signal and a stated accuracy, it aint really tracking anything. Not sure what all this means, but it makes me kind of doubt the accuracy reported by the unit.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the replys.

 

Perhaps they are still using static navigation. Check out this article: http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/bt338.php

[+Timpat]

You need to use Webupdater to get the latest software I was told, is that true?

I still have my Updater.exe, I guess from downloading Legend firmware updates, and with it you can just update firmware/software directly. Of course you need to first download the FM/SW and save it in the same folder, typically the Garmin folder on your C:\drive.

[andman]

You need to use Webupdater to get the latest software I was told, is that true?

I still have my Updater.exe, I guess from downloading Legend firmware updates, and with it you can just update firmware/software directly. Of course you need to first download the FM/SW and save it in the same folder, typically the Garmin folder on your C:\drive.

I read something that said you needed to use WebUpdater to get all the updates, that you can't just download them from Garmin's website. Is that true?

 

Alright, I found it here:

http://gpsinformation.org/penrod/g60csx/60csx.html

"Check here or use Garmin's new WebUpdater program. We should also point out that it is necessary to use Garmin's WebUpdater program even if you like to manually install the unit software. Using WebUpdater is the only way to update the Sirf Receiver chip software, although this is updated less often than the unit software is."

 

Is this old information? Or does it still hold true? The reason I ask is because it seems as if you can't download the updates directly from Garmins website.

Edited October 1, 2006 by andman

[DogFleazJR]

 

This is exactly true! It is an overly conservative number that means little as to actual accuracy.

 

Thanks. I know not to put too much stock in the stated accuracy - either what is printed on the box or what the GPS displays. In this case, my five year old unit seems to perform as well or better than the new one in actually finding a waypoint.

 

If the 60Cx indicated only +/- 30 vs +/- 15 for my old V but tracked dead-on to a point I wouldn't really care. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The "observed" accuracy of my 60Cx is only "as good" or actually "worse" than my old unit in the conditions where it should be much better.

 

I will try "down-dating" my software from 2.8 to 2.7 today and see if that helps. Perhaps the problem is in the new software. If it doesn't help I will exchange this unit. Doesn't sound like others are having these issues.

 

Again, thanks for all the replys and suggestions.

[+starbox189]

DogFleazjr: If you decide to download V2.7 to replace v2.8, please report back if you see any difference in performance. My unit came with V2.8 and after only a day or two of using it I accidently downloaded v2.7. I never got familiar enough with the unit to determine if it performs differently now.

Edited October 1, 2006 by starbox189

[kb9nvh]

Keep us posted on your progress....You might have a bad unit. Its happened before.

 

I'm always amazed at the reception of this thing and my accuracy is the same as my old GPSV as well.

I would never go back to the V so something must be amiss on your csx.

 

 

This is exactly true! It is an overly conservative number that means little as to actual accuracy.

 

Thanks. I know not to put too much stock in the stated accuracy - either what is printed on the box or what the GPS displays. In this case, my five year old unit seems to perform as well or better than the new one in actually finding a waypoint.

 

If the 60Cx indicated only +/- 30 vs +/- 15 for my old V but tracked dead-on to a point I wouldn't really care. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The "observed" accuracy of my 60Cx is only "as good" or actually "worse" than my old unit in the conditions where it should be much better.

 

I will try "down-dating" my software from 2.8 to 2.7 today and see if that helps. Perhaps the problem is in the new software. If it doesn't help I will exchange this unit. Doesn't sound like others are having these issues.

 

Again, thanks for all the replys and suggestions.

[+EraSeek]

I don't think the actual accuracy is any better. From what I understand the chip makes something like 20,000 calculations and uses anything and everything it can get. Thus, although it keeps a signal, it may not always be a quality fix. They also have something called static navigation where in tough spots it does not even look for a better fix but just keeps the coordinates it has, thus not navigating at all. This may or may not be disabled in garmins.

[DogFleazJR]

Keep us posted on your progress....You might have a bad unit. Its happened before.

 

I'm always amazed at the reception of this thing and my accuracy is the same as my old GPSV as well.

I would never go back to the V so something must be amiss on your csx.

 

 

I downloaded the v2.7 firmware this morning, but have decided to wait a day before DLing it to the 60Cx. To be honest, I'm a little leary doing this without being able to get the v2.8 back

 

My daughter and I did some playing today in the neighborhood, setting a way point and finding the zero point. Today the two units (V and 60Cx) were in exact agreement under the moderate, mature tree cover here. This is a step up from where we were yesterday before I reset the unit.

 

The V seems to hold the WAAS signals better, but this may be an artifact of the display update rather than what signal the unit is actually reading at any instant.

 

I am going to be up in the Catskills tonight and tomorrow and will have the opportunity to test the unit under more demanding conditions. If it is still lame tomorrow then I'll DL 2.7 and see how it goes. If still lame, I'll seek an exchange.

 

For what it is worth, the compass and altimeter seem to work well. They aren't kidding about holding the unit level, even a small tilt will shift the pointer the opposite direction. A leveling bubble would be a great upgrade.

 

I will keep you posted.

[+EraSeek]

When you reset the unit did it keep 2.80 or go back to an earilier version? Select>setup Select>system Hit>menu Select>software version. Yours should read: SOFTWARE 3.00 GPS SW 2.80

[DogFleazJR]

When you reset the unit did it keep 2.80 or go back to an earilier version? Select>setup Select>system Hit>menu Select>software version. Yours should read: SOFTWARE 3.00 GPS SW 2.80

 

It kept 3.0 / 2.8.

 

It seems to be doing much better today. I'm wondering if I got a unit that had been returned to the retailer and someone might have been messing with the settings before I got it?

 

A question: if I do DL 2.7, do you think it will reload 2.8 if I do another reset? If that were the case, I'd DL 2.7 now and get it over with!

[+hogrod]

A question: if I do DL 2.7, do you think it will reload 2.8 if I do another reset? If that were the case, I'd DL 2.7 now and get it over with!

 

No you would be resetting what ever version of the software you have installed, so you would still have the 2.70

[andman]

I read something that said you needed to use WebUpdater to get all the updates, that you can't just download them from Garmin's website. Is that true?

 

Alright, I found it here:

http://gpsinformation.org/penrod/g60csx/60csx.html

"Check here or use Garmin's new WebUpdater program. We should also point out that it is necessary to use Garmin's WebUpdater program even if you like to manually install the unit software. Using WebUpdater is the only way to update the Sirf Receiver chip software, although this is updated less often than the unit software is."

 

Is this old information? Or does it still hold true? The reason I ask is because it seems as if you can't download the updates directly from Garmins website.

Anyone know about this above?

[itchytweed]

From resetting my GPS V, are you using WAAS 35? I have found that since I am now using WAAS 48 & 51, I am now displaying display 9 ft accuracy outside and moving. You may wnat to check to see which birds the CS60 is using.

[+EraSeek]

I read something that said you needed to use WebUpdater to get all the updates, that you can't just download them from Garmin's website. Is that true?

 

Alright, I found it here:

http://gpsinformation.org/penrod/g60csx/60csx.html

"Check here or use Garmin's new WebUpdater program. We should also point out that it is necessary to use Garmin's WebUpdater program even if you like to manually install the unit software. Using WebUpdater is the only way to update the Sirf Receiver chip software, although this is updated less often than the unit software is."

 

Is this old information? Or does it still hold true? The reason I ask is because it seems as if you can't download the updates directly from Garmins website.

Anyone know about this above?

 

I believe that is old info. They did that orginally when the webupdater came out, but then they started posting the updates on the normal site.

[capt caper]

When you reset the unit did it keep 2.80 or go back to an earilier version? Select>setup Select>system Hit>menu Select>software version. Yours should read: SOFTWARE 3.00 GPS SW 2.80

 

It seems to be doing much better today. I'm wondering if I got a unit that had been returned to the retailer and someone might have been messing with the settings before I got it?

 

A question: if I do DL 2.7, do you think it will reload 2.8 if I do another reset? If that were the case, I'd DL 2.7 now and get it over with!

 

I wouldn't go to 2.7 as you won't get the 2.8 back. Being a new unit it may take time to build the data in the gps to get it to more steady,accurate.

I'd get it into a clearing and let it run for a few hours with WAAS on, also with AUTO CAL for the barometer on too.

 

I think you'll find it will work a lot better. If it doesn't do a Master Reset then turn it on only in a spot with a clear view of the sky again. That should build the almanac etc. better. I don't know how your running this unit but alot of people think you can run it inside,etc. and it works fine which is wrong.It takes time to build the data the gps needs from the birds and only with a clear view of the sky can you get the fastest, most steady and accurate readings..

 

 

Good Luck.

[GeoBobC]

I think you might be chasing the wrong cause. Getting the last version of software is usually a good idea, but it may simply be satellite configuration. They constantly move, and thus the ability of a GPS unit to acquire them constantly changes. I've had a 60cx for four months, and the accuracy changes from day to day because of where the satellites are. What your unit may see from one location at one time will be different the next day: a satellite that was visible one day may be hidden the next.

 

If you are consistently getting an EPE of 65 under various conditions, in various locations, at different times then I would agree that something is wrong. I would observe the satellite page closely and see where the birds are, and see if EPE changes as the unit moves and at different times.

[DogFleazJR]

 

I wouldn't go to 2.7 as you won't get the 2.8 back. Being a new unit it may take time to build the data in the gps to get it to more steady,accurate.

I'd get it into a clearing and let it run for a few hours with WAAS on, also with AUTO CAL for the barometer on too.

 

I think you'll find it will work a lot better. If it doesn't do a Master Reset then turn it on only in a spot with a clear view of the sky again. That should build the almanac etc. better. I don't know how your running this unit but alot of people think you can run it inside,etc. and it works fine which is wrong.It takes time to build the data the gps needs from the birds and only with a clear view of the sky can you get the fastest, most steady and accurate readings..

 

 

Good Luck.

 

I decided not to "down date" to 2.7 and stuck with the 2.8.

 

Resetting the unit made a significant improvement in performance. When I booted up the first time out of the box, I used the map to indicate my current position (I actually chose NYC which is about 25 miles east of my actual location) thinking this would speed up acquisition and complete the almanac update. When I reset the unit I just left it on auto acquisition. Both times I let 'er idle for the better part of an hour at the end of my driveway with a decent view of the sky. So I am at a bit of a loss to explain the difference - maybe it was just the location of the satellites Friday night vs Sunday.

 

The unit is now performing more like I expected it should. Yesterday under pretty thick cover and along rock ledges it held signal admirably well. We did a series of "repeatability" tests where we set waypoint coordinates, used the 60Cx to take us to that point, then powered down the unit and repeated the process 4 times. Then we'd do it again with a waypoint 90 deg out. Perhaps not statistically meaningful (won't indentify bias, for example, and it would be better to check versus a known point like a USGS marker...) but the results were reassuring. Consistently about +/- 10ft versus the accuracy reported by the unit at the time of +/- 16 ft.

 

I am still surprised by the amount of "noise" on the signal page - satellites are constantly coming in and going out (wish I could post an mpeg of this!). Is this typical with the SIRF chips? And acquisition times are much longer than I expected. Hopefully this will improve with time.

 

So, I am willing to chalk this whole episode up to newbie operator error. Although I've been using a GPS for many years for many different purposes and I'm quite comfortable with their power and limitations, this is only my second new unit.

 

Now to figure out how to get an unlock code from Garmin so I can download routable maps.

 

Perhaps it is time to change my username: Patience, Grasshopper!

[+Night Stalker]

When I get home next time I will be at the same spot. I will need to upgrade the firmware and and SirfIII drivers since mine has older versions of both, then I need to read my instructions on how to get a 2nd unlock code. This may be a problem because when I first got my 60CS it did not work properly and was sent back to Garmin. Garmin sent a new 60CS with a new unlock code. I already used an unlock code on the original GPS so I may not have another code available. I may end up having to contact Garmin if this is the case and find out if I can get anoth free unlock code.