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MAPS FOR CANADIANS


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The Canadian Government is world famous for privatizing the mapping of our country.

 

Look at the availability of any maps in our country.....and now look at the availability of Maps of the same type for the US of A.

 

I can go online to the USGS site and get any type of map for any area .... at any resolution... that I want ....FREE ( or nearly so)......

 

But when we come to the Canadian site..... they refer you to a private corporation that will sell you the information ....if you are willing to wait.... and pay through the nose......

 

SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG WITH THIS WHOLE PICTURE.

 

There are tons of volunteer groups and hobbyists that rely on accurate maps and their ready availability... NOT just us geocachers....

 

look at the hook that the Search and Rescue teams are going to be put onto.

 

It is time to start writing letters to MPs, MLAs and even Civic officials.... Lets get this ball rolling....

 

Maybe we can reverse some "beaurocratic decisions".

 

Fred

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Doesn't matter much for me. I have the Fugawi Topo software. That's the way to go now. You can print any section you want.

 

Wait till the time your electronic frulala goes on the fritz and see what happens. paper will always be better than any electronic crap cause it's printed...then if you get lost...then you suck.

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It is wonderful to rely on Fugawi, and /or any other format .... but consider these things:

 

1) As was mentioned above, the computer that you rely on will (under Murphys law).. Fail when you need it the most.

 

2) I still use a compass..... I know for guys that love their GPS units, it is kinda like a slide rule vs a calculator (I know how to use the slide rule too)... guess I am of old school... but my compass does not need batteries.... and it ALWAYS works.

 

3) As I stated before... the Canadian Topo map datum is OWNED by private industry.... therefore, if there is no copy of the data, and no printed version available to the public... the DATA now becomes a priceless commodity....If you think that the price of the current software is high...HANG ON... Just once ask that private company for a single 6 mile by 6 mile (Township) of data for your personal use.......DIG DEEP my fugawi friend.... I priced it a couple of years ago... and believe me, unless you are "independantly wealthy", you dont want to ask the second time!

 

I feel that the point is not that there is software out there, the point is more that the commercial development and "OWNERSHIP" of the data is going to be a Hassle point in the future.

 

I am lucky... I have friends in the GIS industry that are willing to "loan" new data sets to the non profit organizatins in our area....If they are willing to forget where they got the data and also if they are going to use the data for public enhancement and support of government agencies.

 

Like I said previously....It is time to write a letter!

 

Fred

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Wait till the time your electronic frulala goes on the fritz and see what happens. paper will always be better than any electronic crap cause it's printed...then if you get lost...then you suck.

 

There's always option B: Purchase electronic maps, and print the ones you need yourself. The private sector will probably fill in this particular hole.

 

Having said that, one of the major reasons that most electronic topographical maps of Canada suck is the whole Queen's copyright thing that is also supposed to disappear soon (rumour mill - I haven't confirmed this ANYWHERE!).

 

I tend to agree with the approach that the USGS uses with the Tiger Maps products,etc. The taxpayers that funded the creation of the maps get the map data for free, and the commercial entities that want to sell map products have to pay a fee.

 

We should probably verify that it's just the paper maps disappearing, and not the entire map data creation/update process. That would be bad. I would imagine that most land use agencies (towns, Ministry of Natural Resources, Highway Ministries, other government infrastucture agencies) will continue to rely on maps issued by the Government of Canada, if not in paper form.

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I am guilty of using the electronic frulala.

I depend upon my GPS and the mapping software to the extent that I rarely if ever use paper maps.

I make extensive use of the free ESRI shapefiles on my laptop. I also use the free CDED data and the free Landsat photos, this is a tremendous way to get large scale overviews. I cover thousands of miles every month and the shapefiles laid down over registered Landsat photos on my laptop is my primary road resource. I use my GPS to send the nav data to an app running on my laptop and rarely look at the GPS screen. I do have a copy of Mapsend Topo and I carry a Magellan Explorist 210 as a backup to my 60C but I rarely use it.

I carry a compass but I have never actually used it since I got a GPS except to demonstrate to my children how they work.

 

I own a few nice maps ands appreciate the advantages of paper but I think more and more people are relying on electronic navigation and fewer and fewer people need the overview that paper provides. I have never taken a folded up topo into the field while geocaching but when I worked as a seismic surveyor back in the eighties I could not have imagined driving away from camp without one. I carry two GPS and about a dozen batteries whenever I go hiking.

I spend as much money on paper maps even though it doesn't seem to go as far.

I purchased a 1:12500 aerial photograph of Medicine Hat and it cost me about $80.00.

I purchased a county map for about $40.00 and if I lived in a place that had topography I would buy the topo sheet as well.

The US resources seem to be far superior when it comes to mapping.

I will be very sorry to see the demise of paper NTS topo maps and I would strongly encourage people to take the advice offered and let your reps know if you don't like it either, your letter or note could be the one that makes the difference.

 

The link provided by PDOP's is an excellent concise description of the issue and contains every resource you need to get a letter together, right down to your MP's name and address so you have no excuse not to write!

Edited by wavector
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Assuming its what it sounds like, I'm actually in favour. Sounds to me like they will discontinue the paper maps, and allow you to download a High Res PDF for free instead. I'm all for it.

 

As far as the canadian government not offering enough free mapping services, bull carp. They offer tons, you just don't know where to look. You can get free DEMs of all of Canada, free landsat data, free road data, all high res, all digital. The only thing I haven't found a source for is free rivers lakes streams etc. (you can get them in raster format, low resolution though off the toporama site). And to top it off, its pretty much all unrestricted license agreement.

 

Assuming these PDF versions will follow the same trend I say *great* I'd rather get something digital that I can work with and print out if need be, than some stupid paper map that I have to go to the trouble of buying and scanning if I have to use it.

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Assuming its what it sounds like, I'm actually in favour. Sounds to me like they will discontinue the paper maps, and allow you to download a High Res PDF for free instead. I'm all for it.

 

As far as the canadian government not offering enough free mapping services, bull carp. They offer tons, you just don't know where to look. You can get free DEMs of all of Canada, free landsat data, free road data, all high res, all digital. The only thing I haven't found a source for is free rivers lakes streams etc. (you can get them in raster format, low resolution though off the toporama site). And to top it off, its pretty much all unrestricted license agreement.

 

Assuming these PDF versions will follow the same trend I say *great* I'd rather get something digital that I can work with and print out if need be, than some stupid paper map that I have to go to the trouble of buying and scanning if I have to use it.

 

Only an idiot would rely on electronics for his well being...enough said.

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Great idea and all free. :rolleyes:

 

From the link provided by the OP

This is all about to change - instead of commercial printing at a cost of approximately $11.00 Canadians will soon download a vector PDF file sized at 38" x 26". This requires a commercial plotter, most likely inkjet which will run in the rain and will cost approximately $50.00 - that is if you live in a centre with access to commercial printing.

 

I do not support the Government agenda but people with commerical plotting businesses will.

The government is misleading people by telling them that the new NTS topo service will be free, the truth is a lot simpler, printed maps will increase in price by a factor of five.

It is not unusual to encounter misleading information when the government and it's agenda are the subject. I found a website that could be called Parks Canada and the Complete Banning of Geocaching in the National Parks yet it is bottled as the Canadian Geocaching Association website. :D

 

People can see through these dodges and deceits, the government simply wants to opt out of making NTS topo maps available at a reasonable price. If you think the government is just trying to put some more weasel words in a nice package and there is no "free" involved, you are right. The website linked in the first post should provide you with the tools you need to complain and make your complaint heard, it is very handy.

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The Canadian Government is world famous for privatizing the mapping of our country.

 

Look at the availability of any maps in our country.....and now look at the availability of Maps of the same type for the US of A.

 

I can go online to the USGS site and get any type of map for any area .... at any resolution... that I want ....FREE ( or nearly so)......

 

But when we come to the Canadian site..... they refer you to a private corporation that will sell you the information ....if you are willing to wait.... and pay through the nose......

 

SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG WITH THIS WHOLE PICTURE.

 

Perhaps that is what they are trying to fix. Read the link in the op, and it implies that instead of paying $11 for a paper map, you will be able to download one. It does not mention a fee to do this. Their issue is with printed paper maps no longer being available. The article strongly implies that the Canadian Government wants to move to a free download service.

 

It could use some more research before we go government-bashing.

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Great idea and all free. :anitongue:

 

From the link provided by the OP

This is all about to change - instead of commercial printing at a cost of approximately $11.00 Canadians will soon download a vector PDF file sized at 38" x 26". This requires a commercial plotter, most likely inkjet which will run in the rain and will cost approximately $50.00 - that is if you live in a centre with access to commercial printing.

 

I do not support the Government agenda but people with commerical plotting businesses will.

The government is misleading people by telling them that the new NTS topo service will be free, the truth is a lot simpler, printed maps will increase in price by a factor of five.

 

Sure a commerical plotter would be expensive, but I am not sure why anyone will have to go that route.

 

If the Government of Canada can print and distribute paper maps for $11 retail, methinks a private company could do it for less. Unless of course it is heavily subsidized by tax dollars. If that is the case, a valid question to ask would be "what percentage of tax paying Canadians purchases $11 topo maps from the government?"

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The article strongly implies that the Canadian Government wants to move to a free download service.

It could use some more research before we go government-bashing.

 

The article doesn't strongly imply that , it states it outright. The vector based PDF files will be 36" x 28", they will be free to download, now we are all on the same page, no pun intended.

We are not government bashing so much as making sure that the government knows we disapprove of their plan to discontinue the production of the NTS topo maps in paper form. People who wish to have a paper map will have no options beyond using a commerical printer to obtain a copy. A business may be able to turn a profit on this situation, I am glad that you have noted that because kittkatt1960 stated very clearly that having private industry involved in determining prices is a worry.

 

Now we are all on the same page, or lack thereof, and we can go back to criticizing the government for making this decision. Our geocaching association has a position on this and it is very simple, "we object to the elimination of paper NTS maps and feel it will be very detrimental to ourselves and all other recreational backcountry users."

 

The government and I use the word "free" differently. The government would like to be "free" to do what they decide. The new NTS topo maps will be "free". To use the new NTS topo maps I will be "free" to pay up to five times the cost that I pay now. The "free" maps provided by the government do not fold well and the pencil marks look bad on the LCD.

 

I can understand why those who have no use for topo sheets see no reason to complain but anyone involved in any kind of back-country recreation is going to suffer, people in smaller centers are going to suffer, people who live in areas that are remote are going to suffer, people who rely on topo maps are going to suffer.

Large companies with their own mapping departments are going to think it is grand, businesses that sell plotting services are going to think the new "free" maps are great.

 

Are you a member of the Canadian Geocaching Association, I think they support the new "free" map service. :anitongue:

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Are you a member of the Canadian Geocaching Association, I think they support the new "free" map service. ;)

 

No.

 

I'm not stating a position "for" or "against" but asking some questions to try to gain knowledge before putting my stake in the sand.

 

I was also pointing out a glaring inconsistency in one person's post (not yours) where they rail against the governement for doing exactly what they praise the US government for already having done.

 

My question above remains unanswered, and I think it is an important one.

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There was an indirect attempt.

 

anyone involved in any kind of back-country recreation is going to suffer, people in smaller centers are going to suffer, people who live in areas that are remote are going to suffer, people who rely on topo maps are going to suffer.

 

I don't know if I could quantify that but I would guess that it is a percentage rather than a few. I am most definitely in one of those groups personally and many geocachers are also there somewhere. The printing of NTS topo maps may well end up in the hands of private industry as you suggest but I do not think that this is an advance. Even if I am not yet affected I do buy paper maps and I know that there will be an immediate direct impact on other people. The next time I go to plan a backcountry trip I may be directly affected, the government plans to stop printing these maps very shortly. The government is always going to be the government and it is always going to be up to people to speak up about things that affect them, this is how it works. The remarks about the website were made in fun but were meant to illustrate that government apologetics takes many forms and the new "free" downloads are just another example. The new "free" download service for NTS maps is not going to benefit anyone but a very select few who stand to profit from those who are being put at a disadvantage by the governments decision. As a user of the government's digital elevation data and shapefiles I can attest to the fact that most householders without some fairly specific knowledge and software are just SOL. Most rural Canadians without a decent high speed connection are also SOL. I do think the demise of the printing of NTS topo maps is a distinct disadvantage for many Canadians though I agree entirely that most will never notice the loss.

Did you see our geocaching association got added to the list of objectors on the linked website? ;)

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I think it's disgraceful that the Canadian government will no longer produce printed topo maps. The idea of "free" PDF maps sounds good, but the actual implementation is going to leave something to be desired. For starters, as people have pointed out the durability of print-on-demand products produced on what are effectively ink jet printers on steroids is great until they get wet. And most maps are probably used outdoors, meaning the first drop of water is going to obliterate the map. That'll be great for the military users, eh?

 

Another problem is going to be availability. Print-on-demand means that smaller retailers may not be able to carry a decent inventory of products.

 

And then I'd have concerns about just how accurate the print-on-demand product is. I've produced numerous maps on ink jet plotters and bought Ontario print-on-demand base maps from a local map shop. The minimum line size on these maps is usually less than what can be produced by the traditional printing processes. And then you have slight differences in scale that could arise from printing maps on different ink jet plotters.

 

NRCan should retain the in-house capability to produce the high-quality topo maps. Make the digital products available for next to nothing. They'll still find people willing to pay for quality paper topos like the ones they've been producing for several decades.

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I think it's disgraceful that the Canadian government will no longer produce printed topo maps.

 

Disgraceful? Sheesh.

 

How many tax paying Canadians buy topo maps? Are the soon-to-be-history maps subsidized by tax dollars? If not, then what's the problem? If there's a demand, it will be filled and the maps will be less expensive. Meanwhile, everybody will have access to digitized maps.

 

And if they are subsidized by tax dollars then do users of these maps represent a large enough percentage of the population to deserve this service? I'd be willing to bet that it is far less than 10% of the population, and that's not enough to expect personalized service from any government.

 

Here are a couple of questions:

 

Are $11 topo maps printed by the government subsized by tax dollars?

 

What percentage of tax-paying Canadians take advantage of $11 topo maps?

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If there's a demand, it will be filled and the maps will be less expensive.

Definately not less expensive... I finally managed to aquire a paper topo map for a remote area, but what I really needed was a Tyvek one. Unfortunately, the government never issued Tyvek maps for this area. After receiving the raw vector image data for this area, I had a print shop produce the map on Tyvek for me. The cost was over $100, when the government issued Tyvek maps only run around $15... How do they keep their prices low? Volume... The Queen's printer does not print single maps, they crank out hundreds at a time!

 

TOMTEC

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WOW!! Some of you are implying that people who would be happy with digital maps are idiots for relying on them. I use printed maps all the time. But I haven't purchased a topo map in years. I have topo maps for all of my province loaded to my computer. I print off whatever sections i want to whatever scale i want from my computer - on 8 1/2 X 11 paper. Then I laminate them. That, in my opinion is much better than carrying around a 3 foot paper map. As far as my computer failing me when I most need it, I doubt that when (if) I get lost 15 miles back in God's country that I will have anything to plug my desktop computer into! So it won't be failing me. Digital is best for me. I have dozens of laminated 8 1/2 X 11 maps tucked into a pouch designed for carrying maps. They are much more durable than regular paper (non-laminated) maps, and the blood from a paunched moose washes off quite easily. These laminates and my trusty compass are my choice! (But I do have my GPS with me always!!)

Edited by GreatCanadian
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If there's a demand, it will be filled and the maps will be less expensive.

Definately not less expensive... I finally managed to aquire a paper topo map for a remote area, but what I really needed was a Tyvek one. Unfortunately, the government never issued Tyvek maps for this area. After receiving the raw vector image data for this area, I had a print shop produce the map on Tyvek for me. The cost was over $100, when the government issued Tyvek maps only run around $15... How do they keep their prices low? Volume... The Queen's printer does not print single maps, they crank out hundreds at a time!

 

You've missed an important point. If there is a demand, then it will be filled, not by people printing their own maps on plotters, but by printers with the same -- or better -- equipment than The Queen's Printer. They, too, will crank out hundreds at a time.

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If there's a demand, it will be filled and the maps will be less expensive.

Definately not less expensive... I finally managed to aquire a paper topo map for a remote area, but what I really needed was a Tyvek one. Unfortunately, the government never issued Tyvek maps for this area. After receiving the raw vector image data for this area, I had a print shop produce the map on Tyvek for me. The cost was over $100, when the government issued Tyvek maps only run around $15... How do they keep their prices low? Volume... The Queen's printer does not print single maps, they crank out hundreds at a time!

 

You've missed an important point. If there is a demand, then it will be filled, not by people printing their own maps on plotters, but by printers with the same -- or better -- equipment than The Queen's Printer. They, too, will crank out hundreds at a time.

 

I think that the Government should continue their role of data stewards but get out of the printing business. Printing should not be a core compentcy of the Government when there is such a myriad of private sector solutions that range from low-cost or DIY to superior quality specialty services.

I think that the government is doing the right thing in making the data available and letting the private sector do what it does best, filling the gaps and creating new innovative solutions. I believe that you will shortly find a number of shops offering similar quality printing (there may even be contracts available for transitional services or supply of maps to government ministries), many new groups building the data into new products such as electronic charts or perhaps low-cost map books and improvement of existing private sector mapping products (electronic and paper) with new overlays and new data, and new sales channels.

 

In a free market the private sector is very good about filling a gap in a very cost effective manner.

 

Fizbot.

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spoken like a true torontonian!

 

:D

 

I have no problem with privatization.... but there should be at least a control factor from the Public sector when it comes to PUBLIC information.... and if you had not noticed.... the control is in the hands of the private sector.....

 

Therefore continue paying through the nose... no hassles... after all the more that you pay ..... the less I will have to.

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I don't doubt that the private sector will step in. You will be able to get maps of any popular area that sells well cheaply. Maps of remote areas that only sell a few copies every now and than will not be printed.

Much like service from our 'national' carrier, Air Canada, maps will be available for only the big centers.

Still I would rather that the government concentrate on updating ALL of Canada in digital form and more frequent updates on populated areas. Than make the data available to the public, including commercial intrests, at no to private citizens and very little cost to commercial interests. This would allow Garmin and others to update their digital maps more often.

Current data is over 50 years old on a lot of remote maps and the maps are not available in color. I own close to 100 Topos but the ones I use are printed on 11 x 17 sections, most have been printed b/w because of cost. They are bound in a book which is always in my truck or backpack, lots of penned in notes there. If it was not for the notes I would make another book in color now that it is cheaper.

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Assuming these PDF versions will follow the same trend I say *great* I'd rather get something digital that I can work with and print out if need be, than some stupid paper map that I have to go to the trouble of buying and scanning if I have to use it.

 

Only an idiot would rely on electronics for his well being...enough said.

 

Care to elaborate on that? I like digital data sooooo much better than paper maps. If anything, the availability is probably much much higher if they move to digital.

 

Think about it, I a map of 082O02, to see what it looks like. Do I have to go out to the store (I think there are 3 places in town that sell the printed topo maps) to get it? Nope I just point my browser to ..... and download them. Simple. If I want to print it out, I print it out. Its easy. If I want to print it on some fancy schmansy printer that doesn't run when it gets wet (incidentally I'm pretty sure the commercial plotters I used to use printed water fast inks...), I can do that too. Easy.

 

As has been said before, if there is demand, the private sector will meet it. If the existing maps aren't being heavily subsidized by tax payers, then price wise the private sector should be able to do just fine.

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With paper maps, you get a map.

 

With digital data, and a printer, you get a map.

 

With digital data and some imagination, you get a map and much more.

 

You can print out an expedition map, with your planned waypoints already on the map. You can superimpose your planned route on the map. You can analyze the data and show a 3D Topographic view on your computer screen, superimposed with your planned route on the screen and see the mountain you didn't notice on your route.

 

You can delete information from the printout that clutters it up for you. You can highlight certain items of interest. Once the private sector starts playing with this data, and starts dreaming up new ways to use it life should get real interesting.

 

I'll compare it like this - the old Ontario highway maps we used to get at the Tourist Information centres was cool, but Garmin nRoute is more cool. You can print the nRoute map and have what you had before, but it's not going to tell you the fastest route to your destination, or warn you when you're exceeding the posted speed limit.

 

But then again, I'm of the mind set that prefers how the Tiger maps are handled "down south" - where the industry prices are kept in check by the fact that John Doe can grab the entire USA mapset for free from the Government's web site. Doing the same for Canadians would spur open source software to include Canadian map data, and there are so many "tier 1" open source projects originating from Canadian universities and hobbyists that I would expect very good things to happen if this data became affordable for individuals.

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Assuming these PDF versions will follow the same trend I say *great* I'd rather get something digital that I can work with and print out if need be, than some stupid paper map that I have to go to the trouble of buying and scanning if I have to use it.

 

Only an idiot would rely on electronics for his well being...enough said.

 

Care to elaborate on that?

 

Sure can.

 

I think too many people rely on thier gpsr and don't bring one form of paper map with them when venturing far. Once your gpsr bites the dust then it isn't much good other than being a paper wieght and there's no breadcrumbs to follow to get you back from where you came from.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited by ZoomZoom
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Assuming these PDF versions will follow the same trend I say *great* I'd rather get something digital that I can work with and print out if need be, than some stupid paper map that I have to go to the trouble of buying and scanning if I have to use it.

 

Only an idiot would rely on electronics for his well being...enough said.

 

Care to elaborate on that?

 

Sure can.

 

I think too many people rely on thier gpsr and don't bring one form of paper map with them when venturing far. Once your gpsr bites the dust then it isn't much good other than being a paper wieght and there's no breadcrumbs to follow to get you back from where you came from.

 

Hope that helps.

 

So really its got little if anything to do with the actually point at hand (as you can just as easily print off the data...)

If you're in a situation where a paper map is actually going to be of any use to you what so ever, then by all means have a paper map. Most of the places I go though, its pretty evident that a paper map is pretty redundant, if I want to find my car again, I just go down. If I want to find the cache, I go up!

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I just heard on the local CBC news this morning that due to an overwhelming protest from map users the Canadian Map Office is not going to be closing. :rolleyes:

 

Yup - here's the link CBC News Story

 

Here is link to get online topo http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/topo/map

 

Here is a link where you can buy the scans... So much for them being free http://www.cits.rncan.gc.ca/cit/servlet/CI...05-002-003.html

(they are $15/1:50000 sheet).

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