Questions about my first cache...

[+jacobsen1]

OK, I'm getting ready to place my first cache... I have a few questions about the area I'm looking to place it. You can see the area here:

 

Here is the description of the "park" it would be in:

Calf Pasture Point:

Former site of a Seabee school for heavy equipment operators, now a de facto nature preserve with a long, wide beach on Narragansett Bay. The land is owned by the federal government, but will be turned over to the town soon. Great birding, unsupervised swimming. Foot Access at the end of Pettee Ave., but no parking nearby. Easier access by boat, with the nearest launch site at Allen Harbor.

 

Here is a link to that google map, but w/o the red x:

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...021108,0.054245

 

So, the issues are as follows... The town lists it as "no parking" at Pettee Ave. That is in my neighborhood. There are 3~4 parking spots where the green arrow is on the google map above. There is also a sign that says "Parking for residents and their guests"... Now there is also a fence on the south side of that street that says "federal government, no tresspassing" but you can easily sidestep the fence down by the water. I walk in there all the time with my dog, and have seen police in there on their mountain bikes, and they didn't say anything to us (rode right by us)... Also in RI anything below "mean high tide" is OK for anyone to walk on... So when you get down to where the red X is on the map, would you consider that an OK place to hide the cache in??? What's the parking issue? If people are to get to this on foot, they would have to park on Pettee Ave where it's listed as residents and their guests, but if it's my cache and I live in the there, then you are my guest right? Other wise this would turn into a kayak/boat only type cache which I don't want to do. I have no issues if you want to access it that way, I just don't want to limit it.... Also it would be limited to "low tide" as the beach is very small at high tide (IE you will get your feet, and maybe up to your knees wet), but IMHO that would add to the fun right?

 

I called the town hall parks/rec department, and it is indeed a park as listed on their site. You can go there, and I can hide a cache there, so the only issue is the access.... Would you be willing to walk down the beach to a park? It is 100% legal to walk on the beach, so it become a parking issue...

 

Is it ok if the parking is for residents and guests only as you would be my guest?

Is it OK if you have to sidestep a Fed. Gov. fence, when it's 100% legal, and you'd be going to a town park?

Should I make it a "water only" cache and let people figure out how to walk in if they don't own a boat?

 

I have another site that I have in mind, but I really, REALLY want to do a multi, and this is the only place I could do a multi. Also this place is very nice, quiet, has awesome birds and not many people IMHO it's perfect for caching and I want to share it with others. I'm just trying to gauge how people feel about the access issues. I know I've had to do similar things at other caches, and feel like I might be in a place that could get me into trouble. All these places were indeed 100% legal also, they just seem like maybe you shouldn't be there. My Cache would be similar in that regard, where it is legal 100%, but might make some people a bit nervous. It's not like going to a regular old park and finding a cache for sure...

 

Also a few cache specific questions. What is a good FTF prize? I don't want to go crazy, but I'd like to put something nice in the cache for those that are the FTF... I was thinking of the signal plush toy, and or the FTF card game could be fun relatively inexpensive options. I'm very open to other ideas. Also what's a good balance for the number of stages in a multi? I know where the first location will be, and I know where the final will be, and I have places in mind for the other stages, but I just need to know how many I should plan for... I was thinking 3 or 4 micros as the first parts with the final being the 4th or 5th you find. I'm just looking for opinions as to what people like more. Longer or shorter multis...

 

Thanks for the help!

Ben (& Nikki)

[+Team GPSaxophone]

The government property thing bothers me. Just because you can go around the fence doesn't make it legal. Just because you haven't been cited doesn't make it legal. It appears, from your description, to be private/government property. Until it is open to the public (by way of them taking down the fence and sign) then I wouldn't even consider placing a cache here. Now if there is legal access, then go ahead.

 

For the parking issue, be sure your cache page tells people that the nearest legal parking is at the coordinates of your green arrow. You can also include this in the "Waypoints" section of your cache page, but it should also be in the description. There is no way to guarantee everyone will use your suggested parking, but if you put it in the description and they ignore you, then they take their chances with the law.

[+jacobsen1]

The government property thing bothers me. Just because you can go around the fence doesn't make it legal. Just because you haven't been cited doesn't make it legal. It appears, from your description, to be private/government property. Until it is open to the public (by way of them taking down the fence and sign) then I wouldn't even consider placing a cache here. Now if there is legal access, then go ahead.

 

For the parking issue, be sure your cache page tells people that the nearest legal parking is at the coordinates of your green arrow. You can also include this in the "Waypoints" section of your cache page, but it should also be in the description. There is no way to guarantee everyone will use your suggested parking, but if you put it in the description and they ignore you, then they take their chances with the law.

 

As I said, IT IS 100% LEGAL to walk down the beach. The fence doesn't go down to the low tide line, so at low tide you walk right in and down the beach. At medium tide, you could still do it, but you would have to duck the fence and at high tide, you can't get past the fence. But the fact remains that it is 100% LEGAL to walk on the beach at anything but high tide. Also the park itself is OK, per the town, so my question is will people be willing to do it?

 

I plan on mentioning all this on the cache page, as well as list coordinates for where to park if walking, and where to park if kayaking in. I'll also explain the low tide low on the page to be sure people understand it.

 

Ben

[+Team GPSaxophone]

The government property thing bothers me. Just because you can go around the fence doesn't make it legal. Just because you haven't been cited doesn't make it legal. It appears, from your description, to be private/government property. Until it is open to the public (by way of them taking down the fence and sign) then I wouldn't even consider placing a cache here. Now if there is legal access, then go ahead.

 

For the parking issue, be sure your cache page tells people that the nearest legal parking is at the coordinates of your green arrow. You can also include this in the "Waypoints" section of your cache page, but it should also be in the description. There is no way to guarantee everyone will use your suggested parking, but if you put it in the description and they ignore you, then they take their chances with the law.

 

As I said, IT IS 100% LEGAL to walk down the beach. The fence doesn't go down to the low tide line, so at low tide you walk right in and down the beach. At medium tide, you could still do it, but you would have to duck the fence and at high tide, you can't get past the fence. But the fact remains that it is 100% LEGAL to walk on the beach at anything but high tide. Also the park itself is OK, per the town, so my question is will people be willing to do it?

 

I plan on mentioning all this on the cache page, as well as list coordinates for where to park if walking, and where to park if kayaking in. I'll also explain the low tide low on the page to be sure people understand it.

 

Ben

There's a fence on the beach between Mexico and California. Just because you can swim around it doesn't make it legal to do so. You will be arrested for trying.

 

Maybe the police aren't that concerned about the fence in your area, and maybe it is legal to go around the fence. The guidelines on this site say you can't do that if you want your cache published.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Team GPSaxophone

[+wimseyguy]

The best person to ask these questions to is your local reviewer. If you do not know who it is, just look at the published cache nearest to this area. There should be a 'published by' log as the first entry. Click on the link to get to thier profile. Good Luck, looks like an interesting spot.

[+briansnat]

There's a fence on the beach between Mexico and California. Just because you can swim around it doesn't make it legal to do so. You will be arrested for trying.

 

Maybe the police aren't that concerned about the fence in your area, and maybe it is legal to go around the fence. The guidelines on this site say you can't do that if you want your cache published.

 

In most states riparian zone along a beach is open to the public no matter who owns the adjacent land. I guess that is what the OP means by it being legal to go around the fence. Its not a national border which is a totally different issue.

 

My question to the OP would be, has the land actually been turned over to the town yet? If so, then the federal no trespassing signs are probably just left over from when it was federal property and no longer applicable. Apparently the town just hasn't gotten around to removing the signs.

 

That happens all the time in my area, where land is purchaesed for open space, but they never bothered to remove old no trespassing signs.

 

If the town owns the property I would ask them where they suggest visitors should park. I would also look into the rules for the park. The residents and guests only sign makes me think that the park is only open to residents and guests, which would mean it is not appropriate for a geocache.

Edited September 25, 2006 by briansnat

[+jacobsen1]

There's a fence on the beach between Mexico and California. Just because you can swim around it doesn't make it legal to do so. You will be arrested for trying.

 

Maybe the police aren't that concerned about the fence in your area, and maybe it is legal to go around the fence. The guidelines on this site say you can't do that if you want your cache published.

 

arrested for crossing the USA/Mexico boarder... Yeah sure you could be arrested, but there are 12 million people here who can tell you how easy it is to do it anyway...

 

Can you show me where the "rule" are that say this and how it might not be published? I'd love to read them again, but can't seem to remember where they are...

 

In Rhode Island, the public has water way rights to access anything they want BELOW MEAN HIGH WATER. There is a public access right away there, and that mean BY LAW the BEACH is 100% legal to walk on. You go down this beach to the park, where you would then go onto "real land", IE above the mean high water mark. I'm not making this up at all, and I've called the town to be sure the park is indeed a park, because that was the initial concern. I've also called the police to confirm their look on this. The federal government property is indeed that. So you "can't" go there. She basically said they don't and won't police it, but I don't want to deal with a gray area with this. So it comes down to, is it an OK idea for a cache to be in a place where the only legal access on foot is at low tide, and it would still be 100% accessable by boat regardless of the tide?

 

Here is the RI policy on beaches:

Public and Private Rights

The shoreline can be defined as that part of the shore that is regularly covered by the tide. It is considered by common law to be public land, held in trust for the public by the state. Each state has a different interpretation of what activities the public has a right to pursue in these areas. The Rhode Island Constitution specifically protects citizens' rights to fish from the shore, to gather seaweed, to leave the shore to swim in the sea, and to walk along the shore. In Rhode Island, state waters of public domain extend from mean high water three miles out to sea. Above mean high water, land and resources can be, and often are, privately owned.

 

So reading that and talking with both town recs people, and town police people, IT IS 100% legal to access this area at low tide. I'm just wondering if the signs would scare people away, and what sort of warning I should put on the cache page. Also provided you go by boat, or at low tide, you don't have to duck the fence, or anything like that. You walk around it, and you'd never have to set foot above the "mean high water" line until you were at the park...

 

Ben

[+jacobsen1]

My question to the OP would be, has the land actually been turned over to the town yet? If so, then the federal no trespassing signs are probably just left over from when it was federal property and no longer applicable. Apparently the town just hasn't gotten around to removing the signs.

 

That happens all the time in my area, where land is purchaesed for open space, but they never bothered to remove old no trespassing signs.

 

If the town owns the property I would ask them where they suggest visitors should park. I would also look into the rules for the park. The residents and guests only sign makes me think that the park is only open to residents and guests, which would mean it is not appropriate for a geocache.

Part of the land is turned over, other parts aren't... Basically the park itself is, but the dry land access hasn't been turned over yet. This would make is so you have to go at low tide to be on the public acces portion of the beach... The parking issue isn't "in" the park, it's in my neighborhood... It's a small parking lot on public land, but they have a sign there that says "parking for residents and their guests only" because since it's right at a public access point, the people in my neighborhood don't want a million people showing up to fish/clam/swim there. Obviously the cache would bring in some people, but it wouldn't be more than a car or two a week and that wouldn't be an issue. Also there is another spot for public parking down the street, so I could always list that (or oven at my house ) as the parking spot.

 

I think the best point here is to ask the reviewer, and maybe even get them to come over and check out this place... The only reason I'm willing to do any/all of this is because IMHO it's a perfect place for caching.

 

Ben

[+Quiggle]

Can you show me where the "rule" are that say this and how it might not be published? I'd love to read them again, but can't seem to remember where they are...

 

When you fill out the form to submit the listing, you'll check a box that says you read and understand the guidelines (it's important to do both).

 

To answer your question, the section Team GPSaxophone references is the Off-Limits section, which states:

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived.

 

I don't know if that applies in your case, but it would be wise to contact your local reviewer to give them a heads-up on this one in case there's anything else they will need to review the cache efficiently.

 

Good luck!

[+Team GPSaxophone]

It looks like you have done your research on this one. That's great, many cachers don't. Being a visitor to the area I wouldn't go around the fence or the signs unless this was all explained on the cache page. As long as you tell people what you've put here, you're probably ok. As Briansnat said though, check with your reviewer to be sure. It does sound like a neat place for a cache, as long as you canget there as you've described.

[+Lil Elephants]

I don't understand where a reviewer could deny this listing as long as your description describes the legal access methods. Heck, don't even mention the land access. Say it's only accessable by boat. Just make sure you bump up the terrain rating.

[+jacobsen1]

 

I don't know if that applies in your case, but it would be wise to contact your local reviewer to give them a heads-up on this one in case there's anything else they will need to review the cache efficiently.

 

Good luck!

 

Yeah, I think I'm OK with that. Thanks for the link. The only issue I have now is that the reviewer is in SC so he/she won't be coming out to see the cache personally... I'm thinking I might post in the regional section and have some other cachers come checkout the area w/o telling them where the cache would be and see how they feel about it.

 

Ben

[+jacobsen1]

It looks like you have done your research on this one. That's great, many cachers don't. Being a visitor to the area I wouldn't go around the fence or the signs unless this was all explained on the cache page. As long as you tell people what you've put here, you're probably ok. As Briansnat said though, check with your reviewer to be sure. It does sound like a neat place for a cache, as long as you canget there as you've described.

That's what i was planning on doing. Giving people the full description of where to park, and what the rules/laws are to do it the 100% legal way. If they want to go at high tide (which I would say not to) and they want to jump/duck fences, that's up to them, but on the cache page I would give them all the info needed to do it legally just so that I don't have to worry about getting people in trouble.

 

I don't understand where a reviewer could deny this listing as long as your description describes the legal access methods. Heck, don't even mention the land access. Say it's only accessable by boat. Just make sure you bump up the terrain rating.

 

The little thing that estimates it says it would be a ~2/3 or more because of the length of the hike, the fact that you'd have to "get your feet wet" and walk in sand. It's not a bad hike at all, to me it's a "walk in the park" as I go there weekly with my dog w/o issues, but yeah, the difficulty would be slightly higher for sure, at least for the terrain. I'm also thinking of doing some fun CCCs for the first 2 stages...

 

Yeah, that's my whole issue... I think I might post it as boat only, but then it will limit those who can go (or try to go) even though you can access it w/o the boat.... I'll be checking the thing weekly by foot though.

 

Ben

[+Quiggle]

The only issue I have now is that the reviewer is in SC so he/she won't be coming out to see the cache personally...

If reviewers checked on each cache personally, we'd have much higher find counts! Unfortunately that's not possible (or fortunately, depending on gas prices ), so we rely on a few other methods to review the location of the cache. Physically visiting each one would be near impossible for most of us, and definitely impossible for some others. Besides, it'd take an awfully long time to get 10 caches reviewed if we had to drive all over the state to do so.

 

Quiggle

[+jacobsen1]

The only issue I have now is that the reviewer is in SC so he/she won't be coming out to see the cache personally...

If reviewers checked on each cache personally, we'd have much higher find counts! Unfortunately that's not possible (or fortunately, depending on gas prices ), so we rely on a few other methods to review the location of the cache. Physically visiting each one would be near impossible for most of us, and definitely impossible for some others. Besides, it'd take an awfully long time to get 10 caches reviewed if we had to drive all over the state to do so.

 

Quiggle

 

It certainly makes sense... I just hadn't thought much about it first... I'm trying to get a few local people together to go look at the site and see what they think about it first. I feel confident that it will pass the review, I just want to make sure people who will actually be looking for it agree with my thoughts before I go to all the effort of getting the multi out there...

 

Thanks,

Ben

[+sbell111]

Here's my basic answer for any threads like this one:

 

Given that the cache meets the guidelines, if it is a cache that you would enjoy finding, go ahead and hide it. Others are likely to like the same sort of caches as you do. Some won't, but you will never please everyone. Don't even try.

 

Your's sound like a great place to put a cache. Go for it.

[+sbell111]

Duplicate post.

Edited September 25, 2006 by sbell111

[+gpsfun]

You got pretty close to a great idea in your 2:16 p.m. post.

 

There are a number of highly experienced and well respected geocachers in Rhode Island. Please consider drafting your ideas in a preliminary cache page (not activated) and invite one or more of them to beta test it for you.

 

If you don't give them the impression that your mind is already made up, they will most certainly offer you objective and helpful feedback.

 

-gpsfun

geocaching.com volunteer reviewer

for RI & other places

[+jacobsen1]

You got pretty close to a great idea in your 2:16 p.m. post.

 

There are a number of highly experienced and well respected geocachers in Rhode Island. Please consider drafting your ideas in a preliminary cache page (not activated) and invite one or more of them to beta test it for you.

 

If you don't give them the impression that your mind is already made up, they will most certainly offer you objective and helpful feedback.

 

-gpsfun

geocaching.com volunteer reviewer

for RI & other places

I was just about to email you about this cache...

 

Looks like I'll go out and set it up and put together a preliminary page for just that purpose. A funny point though. You mention my 2:16 p.m post... but (the way I have my page setup) I don't see any posts that were at 2:16pm... Which post number are you referring too? I'm assuming the one I made (on my browsers clock) at 10:16am, or post #15...

[+jacobsen1]

OK, well I have an interesting update... I walked the beach last night at low tide... (Actually it was 1/3 of the way in, and still had plenty of room to walk) They just had a huge trash removal on the beach, and 2 of the places for my multis are GONE!

 

I guess it's a good thing I haven't placed yet, otherwise the stages would have been cleaned up with everything else... Any by cleaned up I mean they took out old floating docks and a few old boats that had washed up and been there for YEARS...

 

Also it's a 2.69 mile walk from the parking spot to the first 2 stages. I'm guessing it will end up at ~3 miles total if you go in a straight line the whole time (IE know where you're going)... What sort of "terrain" diffuculty should that get, with 2+ miles of that on sand? 3 stars maybe?

 

Ben

[+Confucius' Cat]

Yep!

That was the first thing I thought of when reading through the OP.

 

The whole "tide thing" is problematic. Did you ever notice that there is not much construction on most beaches below the high tide line?

 

It would take extraordinary measures to place a cache there that would meet the "permanancy" guideline.

[+jacobsen1]

Yep!

That was the first thing I thought of when reading through the OP.

 

The whole "tide thing" is problematic. Did you ever notice that there is not much construction on most beaches below the high tide line?

 

It would take extraordinary measures to place a cache there that would meet the "permanancy" guideline.

 

I don't think you fully understand... You need to walk past a certain part of land that is not the park on low tide "land"... Once you get to the cache you will be in/at/near a park where you are allowed to go on land above the high tide line, so the cache will be safe.

 

You're only using the below high tide, go only at low tide rule to get there, but not for where the actual cache will be....

 

Ben

[+the hermit crabs]

It looks like you have done your research on this one. That's great, many cachers don't. Being a visitor to the area I wouldn't go around the fence or the signs unless this was all explained on the cache page. As long as you tell people what you've put here, you're probably ok. As Briansnat said though, check with your reviewer to be sure. It does sound like a neat place for a cache, as long as you canget there as you've described.

That's what i was planning on doing. Giving people the full description of where to park, and what the rules/laws are to do it the 100% legal way. If they want to go at high tide (which I would say not to) and they want to jump/duck fences, that's up to them, but on the cache page I would give them all the info needed to do it legally just so that I don't have to worry about getting people in trouble.

It might also be handy to include in your cache description a link to tide charts, like this one or this one (indicating that they should click on the "East Greenwich" option in either case). That should help people plan the best times to look for your cache.

[+jacobsen1]

It might also be handy to include in your cache description a link to tide charts, like this one or this one (indicating that they should click on the "East Greenwich" option in either case). That should help people plan the best times to look for your cache.

 

I've gone back and forth on that...

 

Pros:

Makes it a more user friendly cache

More likely to get visits if people can plan WHEN to go there...

 

Cons:

It's in most GPSrs (I know my GPSMAP76 has it in there)

Adds to the adventure/mystery

It's already going to be a 3 * terrain rating, so why help people out...

 

I'm torn, I think I'll leave it out at first and see how the logs go. I hope to have it all together and mapped out on Saturday so I can get it posted this weekend (or at least up for review).

 

Also you don't "need" to use East G, anything in NB will get you a good enough answer to keep your feet dry... They're about 10 minutes different from BI to Providence with our small tides down here...

 

FYI, here's a great site I use for tide info:

http://magicseaweed.com/Monahans-Dock-Surf...edLongRange/us/

that's my "local" surf report, they have many others throughout NE, I also use this:

http://www.sailflow.com/

for my sailing forecast...

 

Ben

Edited September 28, 2006 by jacobsen1

[+jacobsen1]

Well we just got back from placing the caches... I'm filling out the forms now, and hopefully this will be up for Sunday!

 

Ben

[+jacobsen1]

It's published:

Calf Pasture Point

GCYKF9

Edited October 2, 2006 by jacobsen1