Caching vehicles at risk!

[+Roving Rangies]

They wrote:

 

We are currently producing a brand new entertaining but serious motoring series, Driving Me Crazy, that looks deeply into the heart of the concerns that are driving Britain’s car owners crazy. There shall be three 1-hour programmes to be shown on ITV1 at prime-time and each programme investigates a different road related sore-point.

 

Show two focuses on 4x4s and their use in our town centres. The 4x4 is the most talked about vehicle on the road today – some of us love them, others hate them. But we all have an opinion about them. Advocates claim they are super-safe and practical kid-transporting vehicles; opponents condemn them as super-polluting and an unnecessary middle class status symbol. So who’s right? Do we need big cars? Are they more polluting? And do they make their owners’ worse drivers? Or are environmentalists’ guilty of unfair stereotyping? Driving Me Crazy will put everything about 4 x 4’s under the spotlight to find the answer.

 

So far, it seems easier to find people who hate 4x4s being used in town centres (and even worse some claim to hate their owners too!) than love them. So I’m looking for people who are in favour or who have strong opinions to step forward. We hope to film in October, so the sooner I hear from people the better.

 

drivingmecrazy@itv.com

[+CrazyL200]

Hmmm... sounds like another poke at 4x4s. Will definatley be repling to that. Especially as mine spends very little time in built up areas and gets used for doing the stuff 4x4s are built for. Including caching.

 

Where did you find that little gem.

Edited September 6, 2006 by CrazyL200

[+Jonovich]

Oh dear - more 4x4 bashing? Time to get that 6x6 Rangie I've been after for a few years on the road.

 

J

[+Geo-Kate]

Hmmm... sounds like another poke at 4x4s. Will definatley be repling to that. Especially as mine spends very little time in built up areas and gets used for doing the stuff 4x4s are built for. Including caching.

 

Where did you find that little gem.

 

I only get wound up by mums (or dads) on school runs, and the fact that they do seem to think they have right of way over anything else cos they're in a bigger car. I have heard these same kinds of owners say "They are safer, if we have an accident, we are a lot safer in this (4X4) than we would be in a 'normal' car". What does that show about the way they feel about the unlucky motorist in a small car they plugh into and crush?

 

If the owner's reasons for having them is to go off road, or possibly a work horse for towing heavy loads, then that's fine. People who have them because they can and they feel safer in one does get to me. How many city dwelling 4X4s have ever left the hard road? They have no better load carrying space than many family or estate cars. And the fact is they do pollute more than a normal car.

 

I have no problems with 4X4 cache-mobiles! that is a very good reason to have one!

[+Jonovich]

I only get wound up by mums (or dads) on school runs, and the fact that they do seem to think they have right of way over anything else cos they're in a bigger car. I have heard these same kinds of owners say "They are safer, if we have an accident, we are a lot safer in this (4X4) than we would be in a 'normal' car". What does that show about the way they feel about the unlucky motorist in a small car they plugh into and crush?

 

Oh dear - what a very narrow minded view. So if your car crashes into a pedal cyclist, what does that say about the way you feel about the unlucky cyclist? You can't use that as an argument!

 

J

[+The Forester]

If it's 'fess up time, I'll do so.

 

I'm prejudiced against fly-tippers and graffiti vandals in the countryside, and I'm agin Chelsea Tractors being driven through our fragrant and unblemished townscapes.

 

There. I've said it. Whew!!

(I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.)

 

Cheers, The Forester

Hypocritic Oath:

I hereby do admit to having driven stinky diesel-exhaling LandBruisers through the city centres of: Cairo; Abu Dhabi; Dubai, Ras al Khaima, Dahran, Bushehr, Bandar Abbas, Shiraz and half a hundred other citiscapes which really do deserve such maltreatment.

[+sTeamTraen]

I hate having to share the road with them, but then I drive an MX-5 (Miata), as shown here:

 

 

And of course I thoroughly agree with every word of articles like this (although I presume figures are available somewhere to show the exact opposite )

 

I have a lot of sympathy with the view that people drive at a constant level of risk; the safer they feel, the worse they drive. For example, see here.

[+Donmoore]

I like the look of a lot of 4x4's but i have to agree with the general opinion that there is no need for them around towns. But there is also another problem, take some of these so called off road 4x4's off road and they will disapoint you. They are made to look the part not act the part.

If you have are prepared to spend around £1 per litre on a car that drinks the fuel to the tune of 15-25mpg then good luck to you. you are doing lots more for the government than you are the eniviroment.(sure you won't be around to see the end of the planet)

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Theres a few assumptions people make about 4x4 vehicles:

 

1) That the owner never actually takes them off road

2) That they are all fuel guzzlers

3) That owners drive them dangerously

 

My answers are:

1) Ours actually does go off road , although admittedly not as much as we'd like. Its got us quite a bit closer to a few caches that we would otherwise have got. Oh and it now tows our trailer tent to camping events.

2) Ours runs at 40ish mpg on the motorways

3) Pengy (the driver), has had no points for speeding in the year that we have had it, despite having got 6 points in the previous 12 months while owning a Peugeot 307.

 

T

[+CrazyL200]

Well the government have worked out, from emmission figures that my 4x4 is quite a clean vehicle.

I only pay £135 a year RFL as it is a band D vehicle and the new version of mine is even cleaner (band C - £110 per year).

So in terms of poluting the environmet is a lot better than most of the petrol cars on the road.

 

It'll be even more environmentally friendly when I'm producing and using my own bio diesel.

 

My other diesel is capable of 60mpg and is also band C, which is why it gets used for shopping trips and does most of the family outings etc... Unless the outing is to go off road or caching, or better still, both at the same time.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Out of curiosity , I just checked the average CO2 emissions of all the cars on my employers company car list (at my grade). The list is a wide range of around 2000 makes, models and variants of car, including some 4x4 vehicles.

 

The CO2 emissions of our vehicle came out below average

 

T

[+BedlingtonDuo]

My Landrover 90 is infact considerably smaller than most BMWs, Mercs etc etc that you see clogging up town centres

[+Nellies Knackers]

I have no problem with 4x4's that actually get used for off road or as a serious towing vehicle but <rant>I can't stand the ones that get used soley for road use running the kids around and commuting, it's just a waste of rescources.

If the kids realy need a 4x4 to move them around they'd probably be better off with a diet so they can fit in a normal car.</rant>

We did a cache recently that claimed a 4x4 is the only way to drive to the cache site yet our skoda fabia never left tarmac to do it and managed easily.

I would be interested to know the percentage of 4x4's sold that ever see mud or hard labour, I bet it's fairly low.

I bet my 1 wheel drive XT600 would go anywhere a 4wheel drive could, and when it does get stuck you can just drag it out.

[lakeuk]

3) Pengy (the driver), has had no points for speeding in the year that we have had it, despite having got 6 points in the previous 12 months while owning a Peugeot 307.

 

Interesting point implied been it's the type of car thats caused the speeding

[+The Golem]

The Chelsea tractor drivers can always use this stuff for the desired effect - I can't believe anyone would actually buy it...

[+LollyBob]

Wizzzzz was sure glad we had our 4x4 with us at Shrops!

It does do some off roading, not as much as Bob would like tho! I dont like off roading.

It is a work horse in the fact that it carries all our stuff with us caching to events but it is never used just for pottering around. My Mondeo does all that sort of stuff, its a lot cheaper to run than the 4x4.

 

It does get us to places that a normal car would have problems coping with.

[+The Bolas Heathens]

Same with our Landrover 90. We live down a 1/4 mile farm track which can get very muddy and believe me, in winter we need the 4x4 option sometimes Makes for a great caching mobile for local caches and no chance of getting a speeding ticket as it cannot go that fast.

 

My main car is a Chrysler Grand Voyager and I make no apologies at all for having a large car. I work from home and do a LOT less mileage than most people so would be confident any cost on the environment is coming more from someone commuting everyday than my trips out at the weekend (quite a few of which are in the Landrover anyway).

 

My Landrover 90 is infact considerably smaller than most BMWs, Mercs etc etc that you see clogging up town centres

Edited September 6, 2006 by The Bolas Heathens

[+Moote]

What bugs me about 4x4's, is the supermarket and school run brigade etc.

 

I have no issue with people that use them as intended, but just having a 4x4 for looking tough on the road shows how immature some motorists are.

 

Theses are the people who give 4x4 drivers a bad name, and their excuse that they are safer in a 4x4 does not hold as one of the safest cars on the road is the Smart Car, in terms of its safety cell.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Moote

[+John Stead]

..... as one of the safest cars on the road is the Smart Car, in terms of its safety cell.

Thanks for that Moote! I still don't fancy having my top removed by a "safe" driver!

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

Nothing personal - I passed my driving test in an Ex Royal Signals Landrover in Kendal - but why is a 4x4 a "cachers Vehicle" I chace on Dartmoor and on Bodmin Moor and haven't been to a cache that my Ford Escort wouldn't get me close enough to. My MG on the other hand isn't too good in anything slightly rough.

 

But, pray - why are "Caching Vehicles" at risk?

 

What gets my goat is people with nice shiney 4 x 4s on narrow Cornish roads who won't drive them into the verge! or indeed a Royal Greenjackets driver in a Defender who didn't know how to get into to 4 wheel drive!

 

Stands back and cowers in the corner...

[+dino-irl]

Well the government have worked out, from emmission figures that my 4x4 is quite a clean vehicle.

I only pay £135 a year RFL as it is a band D vehicle and the new version of mine is even cleaner (band C - £110 per year).

So in terms of poluting the environmet is a lot better than most of the petrol cars on the road.

 

It'll be even more environmentally friendly when I'm producing and using my own bio diesel.

 

My other diesel is capable of 60mpg and is also band C, which is why it gets used for shopping trips and does most of the family outings etc... Unless the outing is to go off road or caching, or better still, both at the same time.

Where do you find the information on emmissions and mileage for indivisual vehicles without having to trawl the manufacturer's websites?

[+CrazyL200]

Well the government have worked out, from emmission figures that my 4x4 is quite a clean vehicle.

I only pay £135 a year RFL as it is a band D vehicle and the new version of mine is even cleaner (band C - £110 per year).

So in terms of poluting the environmet is a lot better than most of the petrol cars on the road.

 

It'll be even more environmentally friendly when I'm producing and using my own bio diesel.

 

My other diesel is capable of 60mpg and is also band C, which is why it gets used for shopping trips and does most of the family outings etc... Unless the outing is to go off road or caching, or better still, both at the same time.

Where do you find the information on emmissions and mileage for indivisual vehicles without having to trawl the manufacturer's websites?

 

DVLA

[+Skate and Jane]

I have no problem with 4x4s, each to there own. I expect there is a tinge of jealousy in some cases and given the chance many more people would use them. Having said that I agree with the Birdman in that saying they are good for caching is a non starter as there must be very few caches in this country set with the 4x4 user in mind. The only benefit would be in parking closer than intended by the placer and missing out on a nice walk. Maybe good for number hungry and disabled cachers though.

[+Kitty Hawk]

Pollution : if people are worried about pollution, surely they should complain about polluting cars - that will include some, but not all, 4wd, but will also include alot of others, which are deemed acceptable owing to their drive system.

 

Size : if people are worried about size then they should find a study of the ariel view foot print and complain about all cars over a certain size - Volvo V70's 7 series BMW, E class Mercedes etc. There will be some 4wd in this list - Nissan Patrol, but plenty that would pass muster.

 

Safety - it comes to something when we are saying on the one hand - buy safe cars - but decrying people who choose a safe car, that happens to be a 4wd...I don't get it.

 

Terrain - so it's Ok to drive 4wd off road, but not on road. So, if your day to day/week to week or year to year life has a need for a 4wd, you must have two cars. One sat in the drive only to be used in the event of a need for a 4wd and another for everything else. The other car would have to be a safe, small car with low emmissions.

 

Consumption - some 4 wd are thirsty, but so are sports cars and some older cars. My MGC did 13mpg. I'm looking for the anti MG lobby and can't see it anywhere...

 

My opinion, if you want it - the above are all red herrings.

 

People don't like 4wd out of blind, unthinking prejudice. It may hark back to a class thing. Or that they are expensive and bought by people who don't take them off road so it's seen as showing off, or whatever.

 

I will respect anyone who has issues with cars that are too big, cars that pollute, cars that are unsafe etc.

 

I have no respect at all in people who are anti 4wd. They may as well say something as well considered as that they are anti blue cars.

[lampsh]

Regarding car safety (regardless of car type):

 

Manufacturers should do away with airbags, crumple zones and safety cages;

 

The driver's seat should be fixed to the front bumper;

 

Then I think you'd see a lot safer driving.

 

I bought an old Landie soft-top as my "mid life crisis" car. I rarely use it other than for short-ish runs and offroad (4x4ers should check out this event for some real offroad fun: http://www.abingdon4x4festival.com ) but it's a hoot to pile 8 kids in the back and go bouncing around the Hampshire Byeways. If I drive around town it just scares people (especially me).

 

However, the Government seems to have identified offroaders as another politically weak minority ripe for persecution by the idealogues in New Labour (witness the breathtaking arrogance with which all RUPPs were recently reclassified as restricted byeways). So if you're into 4x4ing I would say: enjoy your hobby (responsibly) while you can.

 

BTW, regarding fuel economy, my old Series 3 gets about 593 MPG.

But that's just the lubricating oil ;-) The fuel consumption doesn't really bare thinking about.

[Lactodorum]

Apart from the title, can you explain why this is an appropriate thread for a Geocaching forum?

[+Simply Paul]

I don't mind 4x4s. I used to own a little one - a Subaru Lagacy. What I don't like are bull bars, which are dangerous to other road users and are pointless unless your car is regularly charged at by bulls. They also take any impact and put it right into the chassis, meaning a very low speed impact can write-off a £50k vehicle at a stroke.

 

Anyway, you don't need a 4x4, even for green-lane caching. Some on-topic, geocaching-related info here.

 

Edit for dodgy brackets.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Simply Paul

[+bhodisatva]

I drive a 35 year old ex-military Land Rover, so to all the antis out there i say - Do us all a favour and come and sniff my exhaust fumes as your wasting someone elses precious oxygen by bleating on about 4x4 useage. It all boils down to personal choice, i don't dictate what you should eat, wear, drive, call your children etc etc, don't dictate to me what i should and shouldn't be driving either inner or outer city. Whether my vehicle gets used on or off road is no concern of anyone else but me, it's called freedom of choice.

 

Grow your own dope, plant an Anti 4x4 protester today.

[+mumbo jumbo]

Off topic? Anyway, as a day-in-day-out-all-year-round-cross-city cycle commuter, don't get me started on 4x4s, white vans, boy racers and looney judges. It wouldn't be prety

[+macpacfam]

OK... I had to make a reply.

1. There is no scientific evidence that the hole in the o-zone is caused by gas guzzling SUV's despite what the hypocrits like Al Gore want you the believe. Cows and trees product more CO2 than all petrolieum cars combined. Car and Track has a good articale on it.

2. SUV's do "ake you feel safe" is a farse. My .357 magnum maes me feel safer. However, most women feel safer in a ride that is higher off the ground than the afore-mentioned Mazda Miata. So buy what the woman feels safe in.

3. Those SUV owners who feel they need to hog the road, need to have the vehicle stripped of the mud tires and replaced with regular Mazda tires since there is no law against being stupid on the road. Those folks who drive in my lane, I pull over a little closer to them and make them move over since they can't drive with courtesy.

4. Those 4x4 owners who feel they need to go off-road and then feels the need to cover their said vehicle in mud from top to bottom need to be stripped of their rides and handed a bicycle for life. Tread lightly and save the Earth for others to enjoy.

5. Who cares if a SUV only gets 9 miles per gallon? Why is it everyone else's problem? The only person who it should matter to is the schmuck who buys the SUV. No one complains about million dollar homes until they show up in their back yards. Basically, it is the owner and no one else who has to pay for the gas. Correct? Again, lok back to point number 1.

6. While speaking about point number one, we are being duped into thinking it is only the oil that causes the o-zone hole. The environ-anal-ists neglect to remember that only 50,000 years ago, we were in a ice age that had the top half of the Earth covered. So yes, there is global warming, but the Earth has been warming up for over 50,000 years! That is called a natural evolution!

 

All in all, have a 4x4 if you want. Just be considerate of others around you and the environment. Otherwise, we should weed out the gene pool a little bit...

[+bhodisatva]

indeed a Royal Greenjackets driver in a Defender who didn't know how to get into to 4 wheel drive!

 

Hmm, Defenders are permanent four wheel drive IIRC not selectable, perhaps you mean he didn't know how to engage diff lock or low range ?? Edited September 7, 2006 by bhodisatva

[nobby.nobbs]

another excuse for class warfare.

 

exactly how does it matter to you what the next person drives?

 

if they want to drive one around london so what? honestly people get more upset about this than the muggers and drug dealers who walk around london.

 

set the tax for all cars in the same way, those that pollute more be they sports or 4x4 get taxed more.

 

driving styles. well again it's not the car it's the driver so just apply the law as it stands. bad drivers get bans.

 

i don't have one but wish i did as i can't fit into "normal" cars very well as i have long legs.

 

life is too short to dictate what cars other people are allowed to drive and where.

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

Hmm, Defenders are permanent four wheel drive IIRC not selectable, perhaps you mean he didn't know how to engage diff lock or low range ??

 

My mistake.. I drove a Defender.. he was an an older Series 3... Stuck on a wet field.. Yellow Knob down for 4 wheel drive.. and red one forward for low ratio.. and it drove straight out...

[+t.a.folk]

Nothing personal against 4x4 drivers but we ,and non 4x4 owner friends , rarely come across one driven by a driver who is prepared to do 50 50 share of taking nearside wheels off road when passing front to front along narrow county lanes .

[+dino-irl]

DVLA

Thanks for that. The link from the page to VCA Car Fuel Data is very useful too.....although it doesn't have any data for the L200

[+The Bolas Heathens]

Possibly, but I could easily say the same about BMW drivers or drivers of lots of other cars. The argument just does not make sense by mistakenly singling out 4x4 drivers.

 

We've lots of 4x4 owners round here and I've never seen one not take their fair share of giving way to each other on our narrow country lanes. I just don't get why people single out 4x4 drivers and not BMW drivers, Mercedes drivers, sports car drivers or for that matter, any other group of drivers where *some* of the cars in the class are above average emissions.

 

Nothing personal against 4x4 drivers but we ,and non 4x4 owner friends , rarely come across one driven by a driver who is prepared to do 50 50 share of taking nearside wheels off road when passing front to front along narrow county lanes .

[+Birders]

<<rarely come across one driven by a driver who is prepared to do 50 50 share of taking nearside wheels off road when passing front to front along narrow county lanes .>>

 

We really had to fall about at that remark. We have a 10+ year-old Toyota RAV4 (which has exactly the same footprint as our equally ancient Escort and uses exactly the same amount of petrol). We seem to spend half our lives pulling off the road so that people in their BMWs and Mercs can get by. When they see us approaching on a narrow road they just stop! Maybe we should stop too?

[Lactodorum]

As I feared last night, this thread has degenerated into the usual arguments again and contributes nothing to any debate about geocaching related matters.

Consider it closed.