Permanent Waymarks vs. Temporary Waymarks

[+The Blue Quasar]

With several of the new categories being proposed and the desire to create 'outside the box' I am noticing more and more that people have a desire to make 'temporarily available waymarks'.

 

There is a benefit to the 'temporary' style, as it would be like attending an Event Cache. Of course, this also means the waymark is 'time sensitive' and would have to be archived after a determined period.

 

But that can be a hinderance too if the listing isn't archived and people try to visit something that is no longer available.

 

So for example if someone was to waymark the next space shuttle launch, and you could only claim the visit if you were at the site at the time of launch.

 

Or better yet... a festival like Sundance, or Mardi Gras, or GEN-CON. Things that last for days, but not forever.

 

Does anyone have ideas to make it so we can have both permanent and temporary waymarks, or if we should even consider the possibility?

 

The Blue Quasar

[J.A.R.S.]

My gut feeling is 'no' to temporary waymarks. I think of the Waymarking database as a pseudo-tourist database. If I checked Waymarking.com for sites to see while on vacation I'd be frustrated if I had to wade through a bunch of waymarks that no longer exist or don't exist during my scheduled visit. When I'm sight-seeing I want to see what is actually there.

 

J.A.R.S.

[+Hard Oiler]

Well, although I wasn't impressed with the Yellow Jeep I did enjoy doing this one which you could do from virtually anywhere but would fit a "temporaily available at that location" category.

[+robert]

NO temporary waymarks. I agree with what J.A.R.S. said.

[+welch]

Do waymarks have a 3 month permanence rule like geocaches?

Do waymarks have a way to suggest a mark be archived/delete if its no longer valid?

[+8Nuts MotherGoose]

I believe we already have temporary waymarks. Three that come to mind are:

• Hot Air Balloon Festivals

• Kissmobile Sightings

• Renaissance Fairs

Don't these last only a few days each year at the same location? I've wondered if I should temporarily disable my hot air balloon waymark for 50 weeks out of the year.

[J.A.R.S.]

I believe we already have temporary waymarks. Three that come to mind are:

• Hot Air Balloon Festivals

• Kissmobile Sightings

• Renaissance Fairs

Don't these last only a few days each year at the same location? I've wondered if I should temporarily disable my hot air balloon waymark for 50 weeks out of the year.

 

Looks like we need another spin-off site - eventmarking.com for the listing of global events (festivals, fairs, competitions, contests, tournaments, meetings, performances, etc.) that are short-lived and/or transitory.

 

J.A.R.S.

[+robert]

I believe we already have temporary waymarks. Three that come to mind are:

• Hot Air Balloon Festivals

• Kissmobile Sightings

• Renaissance Fairs

Don't these last only a few days each year at the same location? I've wondered if I should temporarily disable my hot air balloon waymark for 50 weeks out of the year.

I would imagine there may be a few others as well, doesn't Where's in a name? move around?

 

I don't particularly like these as waymarks, BUT I guess if people are interesting in adding them and doing them, what's the harm? As long as it's known ahead of time, it's likely not a big deal.

 

If there's a hydrant that's painted for a parade, then going to be painted back to standard red (or whatever color "standard" is in your area), I don't think it should be added to the waymark category since it will no longer be available. I'm sure there are better examples, but that's all I could come up with right now

[+BruceS]

I personnally don't like temporary waymarks or categories that are oriented toward them. However as long as they end up in the games group it is ok. I will just ignore all categories there. There are a few categories in the games category I would move out of that area if that is the destination of temporary ie. non-existent waymarks, for example Photos Then and Now and Ansel Adams Photo Hunt as these are legitmate waymark categories.

[+ChapterhouseInc]

no, where's in a name does not move. there will just be multiples. and if penny lane has been submitted 'when' i visit it, i must log that mark, not submit my own--if the category is not to accept more than one sign per road (the number of roads with their name at more than one intersection out number those that only display the name once, right?).

 

and does noone know about Building Buildings? that is a temporary waymark if i ever saw one.

 

as 'that' is not 'my cup of tea', i only know of it. it was one of the first categories to go through the category creation process. i didnt vote for/against it, did you?

[+tozainamboku]

Let's not confuse moving waymarks with "temporary" waymarks. The yellow Jeep, for example, would be a moving waymark if once you found a particular Jeep you would have to track it to where it moved to in order to log a visit. Waymarking is not set up to do this. However if you logged the location where you saw a yellow jeep, another person could visit that location and say in the log whether they saw a yellow jeep there or not. Most "temporary" categories would not make it through peer review because they just would not be that interesting to visit. But others would be. And we can already see examples such as Infamous Crime Scenes and "Marry Me" markers. I wouldn't expect to see someone proposing marriage when I visit a "Marry Me" and certainly would hope not to witness a crime visit an infamous crime scene, but there is probably a reason for visiting waymarks in either of these categories.

[+welch]

....

and does noone know about Building Buildings? that is a temporary waymark if i ever saw one.

 

as 'that' is not 'my cup of tea', i only know of it. it was one of the first categories to go through the category creation process. i didnt vote for/against it, did you?

Yea that sounds 'temporary', BUT it could take a couple years to complete a project... How long does something have to be there to not be temporary?an hour? a day? a month? a year? five years? I would guess that most marks will at some point move or change, it might be be a 100 years from now, but eventally....

Should there be a time limit somethings to meet/exceed? Do we just accept everything and throw out the outdated ones later? or just play it by ear??

[+The Blue Quasar]

"Temporary" as in "It is only at this exact spot for a brief period of time"

 

The whole point of Waymarking is to provide the coordinates of an item that meets the criteria of one (or more) category description.

 

But there is the problem... so as an example... let's say there was a category for "Book Stores"... and you can list where the various stores are so people can find them. But another item in the same category says "And if there is a book signing, then add another waymark for it". That would be much harder to visit.

 

I'm trying to not use the two examples I've seen recently.

 

Part of me feels that anytime I go to the listed coordinates, I should see something related to what the category is about. But I can also see how some games would be fun or challenging if they were only 'open to visit' for a few days... like "Superbowl Locations"... obviously to visit this you could visit a stadium that was previously used.. but you could have a 'Current Superbowl' which would be much harder since you could say it was only available for the week up to the game..

 

The other problem is that for the GPS Games in Waymarking, that some have nothing to do with coordinates. Why include them apart from the need to just to list them. It's kinda like saying "I've read "Catcher in the Rye"... but you gotta say you read it here for it to count"

 

I don't see the need for temporary waymarks either... but they keep popping up, like others have identified, and they don't fit here any better than Locationless did on Geocaching.com

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Corp Of Discovery]

I find it kind of amusing that people are complaining about temporary and/or moving waymarks. This site is supposed to be the place to go if you liked doing virts/LC/webcams/earthcaches etc. Those kind of things go hand in hand with it. I think they should be allowed but as categories of their own, not as part of more mainstream categories. Maybe an attibute can be added to distinguish them or possibly just their own 'supercategory' so to speak.

[+Jake39]

The Blue Quasar

post Today, 02:03 PM

"Temporary" as in "It is only at this exact spot for a brief period of time"

I like to see a listing called "Seasonal Events" which could be all inclusive, be they annual - Fall Fairs, Beer Festivals, Balloon Festivals, Renaissance Fairs, Christmas Parades, Tennis Tournaments or any other yearly short term events.

When searching this "Category" for an area of interest, the listing would show that it is active for a limited time only.

Example:.....

Name of the event or activity

Time:...from (date) to (date)

Location: City/Town/Village

(Describe the event)

Admission

Conditions etc. etc.

[+tozainamboku]

It seems to me we have the following waymark types:

1. There is some object/event (semi) permanently at the location
   
2. There was some object/event at the location that is no longer there
   
3. There is or will be some object/event at the location but only for some specific period of time
   
4. There is some object/event at the location but only at certain times
   
5. There is no object/event at the location but you determine the location by some other means (e.g. palindrome, confluence)
   

I could see categories for any of these that make sense, and others that don't make sense. I believe the current peer review process is the best way to manage what becomes a category or not.

[+Repton Rompers]

Couldnt resist adding my two pence worth. A seperate category of "temporary waymarks" would be best, that way then you dont have to wade through tons of info to find one you want to visit, when you want to visit it. I am new to this but it seems that its going to be a lot of hard work and the info would be out of date pretty much all the time unless some one is willing to spend endless time keeping track.

cheers

[+The Blue Quasar]

A separate section, down at the bottom with the GPS Games, for "Temporary Waymarks" might be fun.

 

It would keep them separate from the regular ones, and there could be classifications for the nature of the temporary items.

 

It could be the Event area, and also provide challenges for "Fast Visits"

 

As long as they don't keep slipping in with the regular ones... that doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+ChapterhouseInc]

i though of a nother category of possible 'temporary waymarks': Campgrounds

 

on the record mark page it states "Seasonal: If this is a seasonal campground, please enter the start and end dates of availability."and then has drop dont boxes for the starting and ending months, days, and years.

 

i have always had an issue with this, including the year, because the mark will need updating 'every year' to 'roll that box over'. however, if it were just the month and day, it would apply to all years.

 

this also brings the different definitions of 'temporary' and 'seasonal' into play.

 

'seasonal' is not really the issue here, but how can these marks be obviously different that 'year round' marks?

 

'temporary' is a big issue. everything is temporary (in the long run), but how temporary is temporary? in the case of the 'moving art cars', is that not a fun 'game'. the waymark is 'in the town' where the owner resides. it will temporarily be in 'all areas of town'. the logs would be a great way to see where/what others are doing when they 'find it'. but would this not be designated 'locationless Waymarking'? each log should have a different set of coords (unless they park in the SAME SPOT for home/work). then each waymark would have its 'own map' so you could see the different finds, and, thus, a range for 'searching'. i would suggest that the 'temporary category' be 'art cars' and the other be 'static art cars'.....

 

i think that through category (and 'tree) creation/adjustment, what 'we all loved' about LCs can become available here. once again i will mention the 'B' word--BETA. WM.com lacks a lot of user interface when compared to GC.com. for the moment we are regulated to READING the waymark description to figure out the details (hours or operation and other specifics). TPTB do have aspirations (don't they) to have an attribute table on the waymark pages (though the list will have to be much different). also, on the 'search page', there is space as with the GC.com pages for 'size' and 'difficulty'. these spaces can include notations that will let you know more 'info' on the mark with just a glance.

 

overall, WM.com has made large strides over the past year. the big hurdles have taken some time to cross. it is the little things like 'attribute icons' that will prevent it from achieving 'gamma' status.

[+silverquill]

I believe we already have temporary waymarks. Three that come to mind are:

• Hot Air Balloon Festivals

• Kissmobile Sightings

• Renaissance Fairs

Don't these last only a few days each year at the same location? I've wondered if I should temporarily disable my hot air balloon waymark for 50 weeks out of the year.

 

As someone else has pointed out, there are several types of waymark categories that could be considered temporary:

 

-- Seasonal: Balloon Festivals might be an example unless there is something permanent to visit, as is the case with Fairgrounds. The existing Farmers Markets category might be another example, and there are others

 

-- Events: These would likely be one-time events, although some may recur at the same location.

 

-- Moving: The Kissmobile is a good example

 

Waymarks of temporary things or events certainly stretches the current definition of waymarks as a specific geographic point, defined by coordinates, that people can visit repeatedly and record with something to see. If we do see Waymarking as some sort of tourist guide, then there is no point in recording a Kissmobile visit to a local Wal-Mart. But, it still may be of interest to some, even though it the coords really aren't "visitable." Seasonal points still hae a degree of permanence. (Even the Berry Picking category could be considered seasonal). Event categories have a short duration, and could be of value to some who want to visit such events.

 

The question is, "Can we expand the definition of Waymarking to include varous temporary categories?" Travelling and event categories, for example, serve more of a historical purpose, and can be interesting in their own right. We can virtually follow the kissmobile, for instance.

 

Some example from the amateur radio community are: Hamfests, often annual or periodic events at the same location; Field Day locations -- once-a-year event, sometimes at the same location, but waymarks would serve as a record of the event, though the coords could be listed ahead of time. DXpeditions -- temporary stations set up in remote locations around the world, same comments as for Field Day locations. So one ends up with a virtual record of these events and locations, and could be a guide to future events.

 

Again, I think as long as there is a group that is interested in a particular type of waymark, then it is legitimate. The definition and purpose of Waymarking categories ought to be broad enough to accomodate these. The key is to be able to organize and identify them so that waymarkers and visitors can find the categories and readily know what they are. I'm not sure segregating all of them under a Temporary Waymarking heading is the answer. That gives us a grouping of categories that have nothing in common other than being temprorary. Could be some way though.

[+BruceS]

The question is, "Can we expand the definition of Waymarking to include varous temporary categories?" Travelling and event categories, for example, serve more of a historical purpose, and can be interesting in their own right. We can virtually follow the kissmobile, for instance.

 

 

I really think the question is not "Can we expand" but it is "Should we expand". I view myself as a "purist" and my answer is no we should not. I know there are currently a few categories of the "temporary" type, I prefer to view them as aberrations and not as precedence for other categories. Are there temporary events that are interesting, yes, but that does not mean they need to be waymarked. Interesting does not equal "waymarkable"

[+tozainamboku]

I don't follow the 'purist' argument that says a waymark "must be a unique physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates, and that object should be semi-permanent to permanent." That sounds like the guidelines for a virtual cache . Might as well use the "purist" argument to say a waymark has to be "Wow" as well.

 

I would prefer that we allow more kinds of categories rather than trying to restrict Waymarking to a limited concept. It is begining to sound like the calls in geocaching to eliminate virtuals because they aren't really caches. Is this a call to ban Coordinate Palindromes, International Space Station Sightings, and Hot Air Balloon Festivals from Waymarking? LET'S KEEP Waymarking FREE

[+BruceS]

I don't follow the 'purist' argument that says a waymark "must be a unique physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates, and that object should be semi-permanent to permanent." That sounds like the guidelines for a virtual cache . Might as well use the "purist" argument to say a waymark has to be "Wow" as well.

 

I would prefer that we allow more kinds of categories rather than trying to restrict Waymarking to a limited concept. It is begining to sound like the calls in geocaching to eliminate virtuals because they aren't really caches. Is this a call to ban Coordinate Palindromes, International Space Station Sightings, and Hot Air Balloon Festivals from Waymarking? LET'S KEEP Waymarking FREE

 

This is where we will disagree. Waymarking things that are not "revisitable" just leaves me with a big question Why? Just so I can say I saw something at this location... but no don't you try to see it there because it isn't there anymore. I don't see the point. No where did I include the WOW factor. The WOW factor was not in place when the initial virtual caches were approved, it was only put in place when virtual were being submitted for everything and some standard had to be imposed. As far as your examples, I voted no on one and the others were in place before I became involved in Waymarking. There is nothing temporary about the Coordinate Plaindrome, when someone revisits one, the place will be the same or seasonally different, thus I would have voted for it. The Balloon Festival would be a stretch, might get a yes vote if it were directed toward the recurring balloon festivals, which "always" occur during a certain week or time period of the year in the same location. Which would be totally different than Hot Air Balloon sightings, waymark a balloon if you see one floating by, which I would not support.

[+Jake39]

This is where we will disagree. Waymarking things that are not "revisitable" just leaves me with a big question Why? Just so I can say I saw something at this location... but no don't you try to see it there because it isn't there anymore. I don't see the point.

Some are revisitable

So where do I 'deposit' my "Octoberfest" link? this one for only 37 years

 

-->and the link ?????

 

From a modest beginning in 1969, Kitchener-Waterloo Oktoberfest has grown to become the biggest Bavarian Festival in North America, second in the world only to the original Oktoberfest in Munich. And, it has become one of the best parties on the continent.

[+The Blue Quasar]

Well I would like to see a separate section for "Temporary Waymarks" as a upper tier in the Directory, equivalent to "Waymarking Games"

 

Temporary ones have no place being in the 14 Permanent Waymark Major Category Divisions.

 

But I can certainly see various sub-categories of Temporary Waymarks. And some existing Categories would fit into this area far better than they do now. I basically see various types of Events.... sports, festivals, science, etc.

 

I would be proposing a Category for some of these types of things, but as they don't fit in what we have now, I think they would be declined in Peer Review.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+ChapterhouseInc]

as silverquill stated, there are many different possible types of 'temporary' waymarks.

-moving (local & long distance) +'art cars', kissmobile

-annual ('seasonal'), in the same location +berry picking, 'air' shows, fairs, and festivals (georgia has an oktoberfest in Helen)

-annual ('seasonal'), in a different location +dragon*con (?, it is coming to ATL soon), and other specialty-type 'confrences'

 

it is not 'if' there is someone (a group) wants to include something on Waymarking, it is 'when'.

 

lat/lon are not about 'there: now and always.', they are about 'where: when, since, and until?'. the site has only been operational for a year, but very few marks are truly permanent. McDonalds do close, and those that are waymarked will need their pages archived.

 

temporary is such a harsh word for such a broad context. it is more like a subheading/category. is there not a better word to describe these things?

 

why is a 'coord pallandrom' a 'game' anyway? it might be construed as a game to figure out 'where' they are, but it is no different than any other waymark to log.....

[+silverquill]

I don't follow the 'purist' argument that says a waymark "must be a unique physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates, and that object should be semi-permanent to permanent." That sounds like the guidelines for a virtual cache . Might as well use the "purist" argument to say a waymark has to be "Wow" as well.

 

I would prefer that we allow more kinds of categories rather than trying to restrict Waymarking to a limited concept. It is begining to sound like the calls in geocaching to eliminate virtuals because they aren't really caches. Is this a call to ban Coordinate Palindromes, International Space Station Sightings, and Hot Air Balloon Festivals from Waymarking? LET'S KEEP Waymarking FREE

 

A hearty, "Hear, hear!"

 

Some would say they are waymark purists and therefore disdain the McD category. Fine. Whatevery one thinks is pure, pursue it and eschew the rest, but don't deny others the enjoyment of a category or category type that they find fun. No, I don't mean we have an "anything goes" philosophy, merely contending that Waymarking.com ought to be broad enough to allow for other types of waymarks within standards. Each participant can choose what thy enjoy or think is pure and leave the rest.

 

Anyway, I just think it will take some further thought to find a good way to define and organize various types of "temporary" waymarks. I do see the validity of the "purist" argument, but here I come down on the side of diversity.

[+BlackstoneVal]

Strikethrough

IMO Listed Waymarks should be available to search for and located. There is the ability to delete or archive a waymark, there currently is the ability to not appear on listings, however, the functionality for noting temporarily not available (or on the otherhand, only temporarily available) does not exist but still list. May be it will be available in future update with the listing appearing with a strikethrough, so I know to ignor or read the latest notes.

 

For instance. I have a WM in Art*o*mats category whose store closed and object removed. Will it be archived or temporarily disabled? I have yet to determine.

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/details...1e-4d2df2e0048b

 

I also have a Corn Maze WM which is only seasonally available to visit.

Edited September 28, 2006 by BlackstoneVal

[+ChapterhouseInc]

Strikethrough

IMO Listed Waymarks should be available to search for and located. There is the ability to delete or archive a waymark, there currently is the ability to not appear on listings, however, the functionality for noting temporarily not available (or on the otherhand, only temporarily available) does not exist but still list. May be it will be available in future update with the listing appearing with a strikethrough, so I know to ignor or read the latest notes.

 

For instance. I have a WM in Art*o*mats category whose store closed and object removed. Will it be archived or temporarily disabled? I have yet to determine.

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/details...1e-4d2df2e0048b

 

I also have a Corn Maze WM which is only seasonally available to visit.

 

archived marks 'disappear' from 'us' (the end user), so dont archive it. it will disappear from 'my waymarks', i believe it also disappears from your 'stats page'. but if others logged it, their stats should remain (they did 'add it to their stats', and you might could still link to it from there, right?

 

i have no idea about the disabling process. and how long will it be disabled (it will still show in searches, like caches) before archiving? there was a cache near here that was disabled for over a year. a few months after being disabled the reviewed posted a note stating that if it wasnt fixed in a few weeks he was going to archive it. several months after that i contacted the reviewer and they archived it. these types of caches are nuiscances, wont the waymarks be even more so?

 

 

some seasonal type waymarks should be obviously so (haunted houses, fairs, corn mazes, berry picking), but it could be more obvious on the site.

[+JDandDD]

I don't follow the 'purist' argument that says a waymark "must be a unique physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates, and that object should be semi-permanent to permanent." That sounds like the guidelines for a virtual cache . Might as well use the "purist" argument to say a waymark has to be "Wow" as well.

 

I would prefer that we allow more kinds of categories rather than trying to restrict Waymarking to a limited concept. It is begining to sound like the calls in geocaching to eliminate virtuals because they aren't really caches. Is this a call to ban Coordinate Palindromes, International Space Station Sightings, and Hot Air Balloon Festivals from Waymarking? LET'S KEEP Waymarking FREE

Fair enough. But what is Waymarking and what is not Waymarking? What is a waymark and what is not a waymark? The argument can be made that if its everything, like is being suggested, then in actually that's nothing. Every meaningful activity has a good definition. Without those questions being answered then the sport/activity becomes meaningless. So, keep what FREE is my question or are you suggesting we just put coordinates on everything.

 

Except here's the next problem. Why do we even bother voting and why are some turned down if there is no definition of what Waymarking and a waymark is. It isn't rational to exclude something (those categories that are turned down) if you can't say what a waymark is and therefor what should be included.

 

So, what is it. Let's see what people can come up with as a definition. It will never become widely accepted if you can't what it is, and by association what it isn't.

 

JD