making the ftf contest more even-handed?

[fishiam]

I realize TPTB don't worry about the FTF hunts and that quite a few cachers have strong (negative) opinions about cachers who engage in FTF hunts but ... for those interested in making FTF hunts more of a fair challenge to those who do engage, I have an idea to float.

 

In my area (Seattle), and no doubt many other areas, there is a predictable pattern to new cache listings. The local reviewer has a set time when he/she can review new listings and the result is a rush of new listings at a particular time of the day ... here in Seattle it is often between 9 and 11 pm. New caches regularly published at that time invariably favor certain cachers (those who stay up late or get up very early in the morning) and make getting an FTF for others almost impossible. That's just the nature of the time schedule for the reviewers and I understand it.

 

But what about this. What if reviewers were to review caches and, once approved, they then submitted the cache to a random timer that would cause the listing to be published at some random time over the next 24 hours? Each cache, once approved, gets a random publish time 24 hours from approval. New caches would appear at all times of the day and different sets of cachers would benefit from the publish time. This would be a very minor programming challenge and it would certainly change FTF dynamics.

 

So ... good idea or ridiculous or not worthy of further consideration?

 

peace

fishiam

[+1stimestar]

I like it.

[+superhoser]

that might put a stop to people heading into parks after they close to get the FTF. i have missed on a couple because i waited till the next morning for the park to be open, only to wake up in the morning around 6 AM to see the cache has been logged while a park was clearly closed. good idea!

[+budd-rdc]

Forget the FTFs. Maybe there are ways to benefit the web site by having a "caches approved" queue. I'm sure TPTB and the reviewers can figure out what the benefits can be.

[+Ambrosia]

Oh, but then I couldn't enjoy the posts of a certain local hider where he says that he ran out to get the cache in his jammies.

[+Snoogans]

No freakin way! Sheesh! If Hillary Clinton was a geocacher, I'm sure she would lobby for that idea to be implemented.

 

I want my cache published the MINUTE a reviewer deems it's suitable for publishing and not one second later.

 

I don't want my cache delayed up to another 24 hours just to stroke the egos of some folks ( ) who can't keep up with the competition.

 

Sorry, but I think it's lame unless it's something I can opt out of if TPTB decides to implement it.

 

The early bird gets the worm. He/She always has and always will. The system ain't broke, so let's not fix it.

 

 

NOW, an option to give YOU the final button to publish YOUR OWN caches ANY time after they were reviewed and accepted is something that I could get behind. Again, as long as I could opt out for the reason mentioned in paragraph 2.

Edited September 2, 2006 by Snoogans

[CoyoteRed]

NOW, an option to give YOU the final button to publish YOUR OWN caches ANY time after they were reviewed and accepted is something that I could get behind. Again, as long as I could opt out for the reason mentioned in paragraph 2.

 

Actually, this would be an option I could get behind. Probably should be published on a schedule, and not manually, so the reviewers can see when it's meant to be active--in other words, not someone trying to hold a spot for weeks down the road.

[+norsehawk]

You can always make a note to the reviewer to publish at a certain date or time.

 

And really, whats the big deal? FTF is nice to get, but I don't see the need to do extra coding and more work to randomize the time a cache is listed.

 

If you want to be a FtF hound, then you gotta make the investment in time to potentially run out at any time of the day or night to get to the cache first.

 

(and for the record, I'm not a FtF hound, but I have gotten about 4 ftf's)

[+Kit Fox]

I like the idea of the cache owner being able to decide whether or not their new cache gets a "Published" log.

 

A reviewer once approved my cache, and forgot to log his published log. This wreaked havoc with the locals, because nobody got the email. The only person who figure it out was a cacher that checked his nearest unfound caches, list.

[bogleman]

I have done my part in trying to break things up like submitting my listings on a Wednesday, submitting my listing at about 0900 (after everyone is at work), waiting for a "special day".

 

Keystone has published all of my listings and has done a fine job of breaking things up (for all the others in my area as well) by not working a "regular listing schedule" (as far as I can tell)

[+Confucius' Cat]

Random: proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern

 

I don't see how this would this make any difference.

 

The FTF hounds are still gonna get the notifications and they are still most likely willing to drop whatever they are doing and go hunt the cache (which the FTF hound wanabees are NOT willing to do, or they would be FTF hound NON-wanabees).

 

that might put a stop to people heading into parks after they close to get the FTF. i have missed on a couple because i waited till the next morning for the park to be open, only to wake up in the morning around 6 AM to see the cache has been logged while a park was clearly closed. good idea!

 

As far as FTF hounds that break the law (trespassing when properties are closed), publishing the caches at different times will have no effect on their illegal behaviour unless the cache just happens to be published when the property is open... with RANDOM publishing time, no liklihood one way or t'other.

 

The end result is that the regular FTF hounds will most likely still get there first (because they are still willing to do what it takes to succeed), but now they will not be breaking the law to do it- obviously a good thing, but not the desired result of the OP. In those cases where the regulars are NOT breaking the law in the first place (I suspect this is most often the case regardless of the stereotype), there will be no difference at all.

 

I would submit that if the "competition" is exercising an unfair advantage by breaking the law, sooner or later the law will take care of that without intervention from TPTB in geocaching.

 

Conclusion not related to above quote:

 

In general it troubles me when people feel the need to "make things even" when there is no real "unevenness" in the first place except one person's unwillingness to do what another is willing to do (assuming no illegalities).

 

Remember the tortoise and the hare. You win by persistence. Then too, remember the Roadrunner. Dirty tricks, or even well intended "levelling" tends to backfire.

[+Team Perks]

I'm with Snoogans. I want my cache published as soon as the reviewer deems it appropriate.

 

If people care to give a flying flip about FTF, then they can do whatever they darn well feel like to go in search of it then. That ain't my problem.

[+IV_Warrior]

Yeah, this is just what the site needs to do. As if there aren't already enough "my cache hasn't been published yet" threads in the forums......

[+Cardinal Red]

On my few hides I have asked the reviewers to hold off till the weekend.

Who gets the FTF? The usual suspects.

The FTF hounds will always get the lions share.

I have since met them at events. I like them.

As long as they are not entering closed areas at night, I don't care.

But I will still request weekend publishing.

I could also support the option of giving the owner a limited window of time to publish.

But not a random publication procedure.

[+BlueDeuce]

Hate to tell you this but there is never a special prize for being FTF on my caches. Those people will have to post how special they are themselves.

[+NotThePainter]

I'm a FTFP hound and I like this idea. Why, it would make it harder for me to get them. I normally get up at 5:50AM. It is no biggie to check for caches at bedtime and if some are there, get up and hour earlier and check. If they are grabbed, I go back to sleep.

 

It is almost never a race that early in the morning. STF is hours later. (And yes, I miss many of them because of the night cachers, I don't often do that alone.)

 

But randomizing the start time, wow, that makes it hard, I like that!

 

(On the other hand, I think that the hider should be able to automatically assign a publish time/date, but only if it is automated, but that has been discussed a lot already.)

 

Paul

[+Lil Devil]

Maybe all the newly published caches should be queued up and simultaneously "released" at noon each day. The FTF hounds would then have to choose which of the umpteen caches to go after. It then becomes a question of location instead of "who is available" as everyone would then be watching and ready when the clock strikes noon.

 

On yer marks...

 

Get set...

[+budd-rdc]

Maybe all the newly published caches should be queued up and simultaneously "released" at noon each day. The FTF hounds would then have to choose which of the umpteen caches to go after. It then becomes a question of location instead of "who is available" as everyone would then be watching and ready when the clock strikes noon.

 

On yer marks...

 

Get set...

One of our local reviewers experimented with publishing caches at different time of the day to test the FTF behaviors, including a particular one on April Fool's Day.

 

A community-based solution probably works best. Some cachers will place FTF prizes only on caches that require some hike. The perennial FTFers in our area always get good-natured ribbing at events and unevents. One even relented and declared he'll retire from FTFs (but it took him several months to do that ). E-mail notification has "leveled the playing field" somewhat but people who leave their cell phones on (and ESPECIALLY SideKick) still have the advantage, especially if they are already on the road and prowling about.

 

I don't expect TPTB to change the reviewe process JUST for the FTFs, unless people start stealing money, slash tires, or resort to criminal-like behaviors.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Maybe all the newly published caches should be queued up and simultaneously "released" at noon each day. The FTF hounds would then have to choose which of the umpteen caches to go after. It then becomes a question of location instead of "who is available" as everyone would then be watching and ready when the clock strikes noon.

 

On yer marks...

 

Get set...

 

Then the "favouritism" goes to those who are able to access the internet at work and able to take off on a moments notice. (This would probably be the ones that are already getting the FTFs, but how would I know that )

 

Also, this would only work in areas where there are a lot of new caches on a regular basis. If this is the case, where is the problem anyway? Isn't it still a matter of who's closest to the location? Assuming several posted at once in different locations, miles apart, the travel time issue is going to "randomly" select which caches each individual cacher is most likely to be first on. How often does it happen that the new caches are published at just the right times to allow one particular cacher time to travel between them all and at the same time beat out every other cacher in the several areas?

 

In my opinion, the release time of a new cache is irrelevant. The availability and willingness of the individual cachers is sufficiently random to "level the playing field". i.e. In any group of cachers there will always be some that can go and some that cannot. There will always be some that are close and some that are far.

 

The "field" is not unlevel. This whole issue of FTF "fairness" (spanning many threads) is a straw man proposed by people who want special priviledges rather than being willing to personally put forth the effort needed to succeed. It is typical of our society today.

 

FTF affirmative action. There! Now it has a name. I can see it posted at the top of the cache pages now: "this is an FTF affirmative action, equal opportunity cache, please delay your start of hunting this cache 1 hour for every 10 FTFs you have logged".

 

Now if only we had a couple of good slogans, an icon, and maybe a folk song or two...

Edited September 3, 2006 by Confucius' Cat

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Randomized new cache publishing times are already the norm in Michigan. Oh wait .... that's just Rusty's bizzare schedule! When does that dude sleep?

Edited September 4, 2006 by DeRock & The Psychic Cacher

[4wheelin_fool]

I like the idea of the cache owner being able to decide whether or not their new cache gets a "Published" log.

 

A reviewer once approved my cache, and forgot to log his published log. This wreaked havoc with the locals, because nobody got the email. The only person who figure it out was a cacher that checked his nearest unfound caches, list.

 

I think that after a reviewer is finished the review process and has deemed the cache OK to be listed, it would be nice if the cache owner could given the option to publish their own caches. This way, the cache owner could go to the location and try to throw off the FTFers.

Edited September 4, 2006 by 4wheelin_fool

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Oh, but then I couldn't enjoy the posts of a certain local hider where he says that he ran out to get the cache in his jammies.

But I don't wear jammies

[+Ambrosia]

Oh, but then I couldn't enjoy the posts of a certain local hider where he says that he ran out to get the cache in his jammies.

But I don't wear jammies

You're not local. And that's all I have to say about that.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I like the idea of the cache owner being able to decide whether or not their new cache gets a "Published" log.

 

A reviewer once approved my cache, and forgot to log his published log. This wreaked havoc with the locals, because nobody got the email. The only person who figure it out was a cacher that checked his nearest unfound caches, list.

 

I think that after a reviewer is finished the review process and has deemed the cache OK to be listed, it would be nice if the cache owner could given the option to publish their own caches. This way, the cache owner could go to the location and try to throw off the FTFers.

Why go to the cache to throw off FTFers? If that is your goal, just publish bad coords.

 

Seriously though, this would be a good idea. It would give the owner one last chance to verify everything is OK prior to the FTF rush.

[+Kabuthunk]

I'm going to have to agree with this being a good idea. Look at it from this perspective:

 

Like all people, a cache review will basically be on some form of schedule, usually rotating around work.

Said cache reviewer will typically "schedule" reviewing time either before or after work, or usually around the same sorta time every day. This is the nature of people who live their life on a schedule.

 

Now, say that at approximately this time, a "usual ftf'er" gets off work every day. They are perhaps in their vehicle driving home every time that a cache is published. They have a hideously unfair advantage because they're already in their car, already moving, and can just swing around to wherever the cache is.

 

Person two who, like me, works evenings or whenever sees same notification. Due to the schedule, every time a cache is published, they are stuck at work and unable to move from their current location for X number of hours. Hence... Hell will freeze over twice before he ever gets a FTF.

 

Adding a sense of randomness will definitely even the playing field in that maybe, just maybe, person two actually has a valid chance of getting a FTF instead of the guy who has like... 300 of them.

[+BillsBayou]

Get over it. You're not going to be FTF on caches in your area.

 

I've noticed that no matter what the game is or how it is played, there will always be people who are NUTZO GONZO enough to make it their life's work. It only takes one of these people in your area to ruin the FTF game for everyone else.

 

If you made the publish time random, someone out there is going to have a GPS strapped to their waist at all times and a phone or blackberry device that get's instant notification of all published caches. They'll beat you no matter how you change the rules to suit your approach to the FTF game.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

I realize TPTB don't worry about the FTF hunts and that quite a few cachers have strong (negative) opinions about cachers who engage in FTF hunts but ... for those interested in making FTF hunts more of a fair challenge to those who do engage, I have an idea to float.

 

In my area (Seattle), and no doubt many other areas, there is a predictable pattern to new cache listings. The local reviewer has a set time when he/she can review new listings and the result is a rush of new listings at a particular time of the day ... here in Seattle it is often between 9 and 11 pm. New caches regularly published at that time invariably favor certain cachers (those who stay up late or get up very early in the morning) and make getting an FTF for others almost impossible. That's just the nature of the time schedule for the reviewers and I understand it.

 

But what about this. What if reviewers were to review caches and, once approved, they then submitted the cache to a random timer that would cause the listing to be published at some random time over the next 24 hours? Each cache, once approved, gets a random publish time 24 hours from approval. New caches would appear at all times of the day and different sets of cachers would benefit from the publish time. This would be a very minor programming challenge and it would certainly change FTF dynamics.

 

So ... good idea or ridiculous or not worthy of further consideration?

 

peace

fishiam

 

Since the system counts finds, perhaps the system could begin counting FTFs and the cache owner could be given the capability to credit a cacher with a FTF? There's chance for abuse (as there is with everything) but it makes FTFs official (if they have to provide proof by scanning the FTF certificate or whatnot). I don't know what to say about "keeping it fair". I mean, if there's a serious FTF hound in a cacher's area and that cacher wants to enter the FTF races, they'd have to step it up to compete with the hound and that's all there is to it. FTF hounds go for it because they can. They're good at it, obviously. Short of nailing their doors and windows shut, I don't know what someone can reasonably do to make it "fair" for people who want to compete in FTF races but aren't willing to meet the standard that's been set. I don't think we can pin that on the reviewers, even if they're predictable.

 

- HauntHunters

Edited September 5, 2006 by HauntHunters

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I like choices!

 

It would be a simple enough thing for Groundspeak to put a checkbox in everyone's profile.

 

If 'Publish Listings on Review?' is checked that cacher's listings get published when approved, as now.

 

If unchecked the owner gets an email telling him it's ready to be listed and he can push the 'List it' button at will.

 

Either way is transparant to the Reviewer, so no burden falls on them.

 

As it is now if we want a cache listed at a time certain, say for an event, the Reviewer has to schedule his job around our desire. This solves that.

 

The fact that you could then play head games with the FTFers is gravy!

 

Ed

Edited September 5, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+budd-rdc]

I prefer not to see FTFs reach an "official" status by changing the web site to do so. Competition will get nastier. Don't be surprised if people start to "overlook" traffic regulations just so they can get FTFs (it's already bad enough park hours are occasionally "overlooked"). Never underestimate the power of obsession.

 

E-mail notifications have already leveled the playing field. It used to take more work to spot newly published caches. I'll forget my short memory and thank TPTB for implementing it, even though I don't go for FTF often and I don't use the feature.

 

I don't know why people'd complain about reviewers publishing caches at a known schedule, since THAT should level the playing field since everyone knows. If people can't get FTFs due to family or job obligations, then they should get congratulations for having the discipline to prioritize.

[+Confucius' Cat]

It would be a simple enough thing for Groundspeak to put a checkbox in everyone's profile.

 

If 'Publish Listings on Review?' is checked that cacher's listings get published when approved, as now.

 

If unchecked the owner gets an email telling him it's ready to be listed and he can push the 'List it' button at will.

 

Good idea. I could support that even though I'm sure it would make little difference with FTFers (unless perhaps the owner gave a "heads up" to friends prior to pushing the button)- Owner could equally well give notice to the regular FTF hounds too.

 

Hey, wait a minute! BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY! with the "publish it now" button, you could let FTF hounds BID on the time of publishing... "I'll give you ten bucks to wait till noon to publish your cache". "I'll give you 20"...

 

If people can't get FTFs due to family or job obligations, then they should get congratulations for having the discipline to prioritize.

The best quote to come out of this debate yet!

[+Always & Forever 5]

 

So ... good idea or ridiculous or not worthy of further consideration?

 

 

I go with the latter. Seems like a lot of trouble. Also, this would cause cache approvals with a subsequent delay in posting. Seems like THAT is more important.

[+boda]

making the ftf contest more even-handed

 

It is already even-handed. A cache page is published and cachers can go out to find the cache. One person or team will be FTF and the next will be STF, etc. They all get a smiley.

 

I enjoy an FTF. It's fun; but I have also chosen to not be FTF on the closest caches to my house. Just didn't care for the caches; but I'll probably get them sometime. I also enjoy a FT-DNF.

 

Either way, I think it is a non-problem. If someone wants to get up at 3:00 a.m., or list their FTF numbers in their logs, I just kind of chuckle - and go caching.

[+3blackcats]

If people can't get FTFs due to family or job obligations, then they should get congratulations for having the discipline to prioritize.

The best quote to come out of this debate yet!

 

I second that! Three cheers for self-disciplined folks who know how to prioritize!!!

[+Lighteye]

I'm with Snoogans. I want my cache published as soon as the reviewer deems it appropriate.

 

If people care to give a flying flip about FTF, then they can do whatever they darn well feel like to go in search of it then. That ain't my problem.

 

ROFL! I second that motion completely.

[GeeO$$$]

Since the system counts finds, perhaps the system could begin counting FTFs and the cache owner could be given the capability to credit a cacher with a FTF? There's chance for abuse (as there is with everything) but it makes FTFs official (if they have to provide proof by scanning the FTF certificate or whatnot).

 

First To Find is not the same as First To Log. There is probably not a practical way for the system to know who is the true FTF unless the burden is placed on the hider to ID the FTFer.

 

Bill

[+TheManInStripes]

Since the system counts finds, perhaps the system could begin counting FTFs and the cache owner could be given the capability to credit a cacher with a FTF? There's chance for abuse (as there is with everything) but it makes FTFs official (if they have to provide proof by scanning the FTF certificate or whatnot).

 

First To Find is not the same as First To Log. There is probably not a practical way for the system to know who is the true FTF unless the burden is placed on the hider to ID the FTFer.

 

Bill

That First to Log thing is true, but c'mon, if you went to the cache and saw that someone else had already logged it, then yo uget home and see they haven't logged it on the site, are you really gonna claim FTF? I seriously doubt most people will.

 

As for that "priortize" quote, the tmies that I have gone for FTF are usually in the wee hours of the morning when everyone else in my house, cept maybe the wife, are all sound asleep.

 

I've gotta side with the crowd that says, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[+Isonzo Karst]

NOW, an option to give YOU the final button to publish YOUR OWN caches ANY time after they were reviewed and accepted is something that I could get behind.

 

This is something Jeremy has said he likes - somewhere in a thread in the website section. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. I can't see it being a priority, but maybe someday.

[+NotThePainter]

I've noticed that no matter what the game is or how it is played, there will always be people who are NUTZO GONZO enough to make it their life's work. It only takes one of these people in your area to ruin the FTF game for everyone else.

 

"ruin"

 

Interesting word choice there. I would use something else like "enhance" or "enrich."

 

People like that make FTFPs all the sweeter. Its no fun at all when one is FTFP and STFP is 5 hours later. My two favorites were "won" by only 7 and 10 minutes. Now that's a victory! I've lost by less than half an hour, just as exciting, but it makes the others better.

 

Paul

[+bccruiser]

Just wanted to say that I think radom publication times are a great idea. I know others disagree but I do think that it would give more people a chance at a FTF.

[+brodiebunch]

What if reviewers were to review caches and, once approved, they then submitted the cache to a random timer that would cause the listing to be published at some random time over the next 24 hours?

 

You snooze you lose

[+Aquacache]

I like TAR's idea of giving the owner a checkbox to determine if the new cache should be published immediately or have the server generate an e-mail with a "Publish It" button. However, I would not put the checkbox in the user's profile, but instead put it on the cache submission page. That would allow special caches (such as those for events) to be published at a specific time while the rest are published immediately.

 

As for the FTF's; I agree that it would make little difference if caches were published randomly ... especially around places like here where we only get one or two a week on average (if that).

[+Kacky]

 

If you want to be a FtF hound, then you gotta make the investment in time to potentially run out at any time of the day or night to get to the cache first.

 

 

Amen! It's not for sissies. I've been trying all summer and this is the closest I've gotten. It's FTF on the re-hide. I took the smiley because it's 250 feet away from the original location. There's another one that was also named after me so the Midnight Hunters held off, but then they DNF'd it so that's even sweeter.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Kacky

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I realize TPTB don't worry about the FTF hunts and that quite a few cachers have strong (negative) opinions about cachers who engage in FTF hunts but ... for those interested in making FTF hunts more of a fair challenge to those who do engage, I have an idea to float.

 

In my area (Seattle), and no doubt many other areas, there is a predictable pattern to new cache listings. The local reviewer has a set time when he/she can review new listings and the result is a rush of new listings at a particular time of the day ... here in Seattle it is often between 9 and 11 pm. New caches regularly published at that time invariably favor certain cachers (those who stay up late or get up very early in the morning) and make getting an FTF for others almost impossible. That's just the nature of the time schedule for the reviewers and I understand it.

 

But what about this. What if reviewers were to review caches and, once approved, they then submitted the cache to a random timer that would cause the listing to be published at some random time over the next 24 hours? Each cache, once approved, gets a random publish time 24 hours from approval. New caches would appear at all times of the day and different sets of cachers would benefit from the publish time. This would be a very minor programming challenge and it would certainly change FTF dynamics.

 

So ... good idea or ridiculous or not worthy of further consideration?

 

peace

fishiam

Well, first, FTFs do not really matter at all to me, although they can be fun once in awhile. For me, from my perspective, your suggestion of randomizing publication of caches would be kinda counterproductive from the point of view of efficiency and of publishing caches as soon as possible, in a timely fashion.