RESET

[lost02]

We just recovered CY1254 (LONE) (we haven’t logged it yet) and noticed the mark has a date stamp of 1985 and 1999 (the NGS data sheet only shows 1985). In 2003 the NGS marked it as “Not Found” because the date stamp was “LONE 1985 1999” not “LONE 1985”. The mark doesn’t have RESET on it, so how should it be recovered? Note that RM1 is also “1985 1999” where RM2 is actually just “1985”. Maybe they lost their RESET stamp in 1999?

[+bvrballs]

We just recovered CY1254 (LONE) (we haven’t logged it yet) and noticed the mark has a date stamp of 1985 and 1999 (the NGS data sheet only shows 1985). In 2003 the NGS marked it as “Not Found” because the date stamp was “LONE 1985 1999” not “LONE 1985”. The mark doesn’t have RESET on it, so how should it be recovered? Note that RM1 is also “1985 1999” where RM2 is actually just “1985”. Maybe they lost their RESET stamp in 1999?

 

I've not been benchmarking very long, but what I have learned from this forum is that the description in the datasheet is the mark, more or less. My first posting to this forum was a mark that appeared correct (it was right where the coordinates said it should be), but had a 1988 stamp on it. It was origionally described in the 60's. There were a number of found recovery notes on geocaching.com. I must say that, besides the date, the mark did not appear to match the goto description. The mark was a local city mark, so I eventually called the city engineer to have them confirm that the original mark had been destroyed and the existing mark was a new mark.

 

Having said that, I would say that, since the NGS already reported no find, and since you yourself have confirmed that the mark is not the one in the datasheet, this most likely is a no find.

 

Scott

[Bill93]

You have to look at all the evidence you have. If something doesn't match you form the simplest hypothesis you can to explain a discrepancy so that everything else fits the facts. Nothing is sacred and there could be an error anywhere, but some things tend to be more reliable than others so you give them most weight.

 

ADJUSTED coordinates for instance are always better than your handheld unit except for the rare case where there was a mixup between disks. SCALED coordinates are almost always within 100 feet to 100 yards, but can be plotted a city block or a mile off, and can have typos (a whole degree sometimes).

 

Descriptions were usually about right at the time they were written, but the monumenting date is not very reliable because a lot of stuff got entered later with a date after it had been written in the field. Distances and directions in the verbal description can be approximate. Occasionally a description got posted to the wrong benchmark's file card.

 

The stamping should match what it says on the data sheet, with some understandable discrepancies like the order of things not matching.

 

In this case, only Arizona Department of Transportation knows for sure, but it would seem highly likely that NGS is correct in assuming the disk has been moved to a nearby location. Both the main disk and one reference mark have a new date, certainly indicating some work was done here.

 

Does the described location match? Does the concrete post look disturbed or damaged? Does the stamping of the two dates look like they were done at different times? Do the best averaged coordinates you can measure match up to the data sheet? They probably will, if the reset was close enough they re-used RM1. Did you tape the distances from RM1 and RM2? That would tell you if it got moved more than your taping accuracy--perhaps a fraction of an inch in 45 feet.

 

Has AZDT submitted any other triangulation station in the area since 1999 that has measurements to this disk?

 

My guess with little evidence is that the post got disturbed by construction machinery but afterwards AZDT remeasured it at almost the same position, and remarked the date to indicate the difference, and then didn't get it submitted to NGS (or maybe still in someone's backlog to process).

[lost02]

Thanks for the responses. The description and coordinates match the data sheet. It looks like the discs (Mark and RM1) had originally been stamped with 1985 and the 1999 date was added under it (the “19” in “1985” looks like it was made with the original disc and the “85” was stamped, while the entire “1999” looks stamped).

 

I’m thinking these are the original discs, but as Bill93 said they may have been disturbed in a car accident, or by some machinery. If these are not the original discs then they are Not Found, if they are the original discs that were disturbed and reset/replaced should they be recorded as Poor, maybe they were just re-stamped in 1999 (like this recent thread - note that was a RESET mark without the word RESET on it)?

[Z15]

fyi

 

The words "RESET" are not used on Horizontal marks, only on Bench Marks per say, those whose primary function was for elevation at the time of the survey, like A101 or Z304 etc.

 

Horizontal marks (triangulation stations) are date code like this one, 1985 was the original and 1999 was the year someone reset it. This would have been reset in the very same exact spot as the original, like say from the underground mark. If it had to mover to a safer location, it should have been stamped LONE 2. But whenever a mark is reset, its is always automatically downgraded in Horizontal Order because it can no longer be verified. A 2nd order station would be downgraded to a 3rd order mark.

 

btw-I worked with the NGS advisor to reset some of these in the past.

 

Example

 

QL0651_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK

QL0651_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

QL0651_SP_SET: CONCRETE POST

QL0651_STAMPING: WILSON 2 1988

QL0651_MARK LOGO: NGS

QL0651_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAl

 

gapped

 

QL0651'A TRAVERSE CONNCECTION WAS MADE TO STATION WILSON 1954 USING

QL0651'STANDARDIZED STEEL TAPES AND TO WILSON 2 1988 AZIMUTH USING

QL0651'ELECTRONIC DISTANCE MEASURING EQUIPMENT.

QL0651'HEIGHT OF LIGHT SHOWN WAS 1.5 METERS ABOVE THE MARK.

QL0651'DESCRIBED BY RONALD L. RAMSEY, GEODETIC ADVISOR - MICHIGAN.

 

and one that fits this mark.

 

QL0672'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1984 (CLN)

QL0672'THE STATION MARK WAS FOUND WITH THE TOP PART OF MONUMENT BROKEN OFF

QL0672'AND LAYING ON ITS SIDE. REFERENCE MARKS 1 AND 2 AND THE AZIMUTH MARK

QL0672'WAS FOUND IN GOOD CONDITION. ALL MARK ARE NOW FLUSH WITH GROUND. THE

QL0672'UNDERGROUND STATION MARK WAS RECOVERED AND THIS POINT WAS HELD TO SET

QL0672'A NEW SURFACE DISK. THE DIRECTION FROM THE AZIMUTH MARK TO REFERENCE

QL0672'MARK 2 CHECKED THE OLD DATA, THE DISTANCE TO REFERENCE MARK 2 WAS

QL0672'FOUND TO BE SHORTER BY 0.041 METER (0.135 FT) THE DIRECTION FROM THE

QL0672'AZIMUTH MARK TO REFERENCE MARK 1 DID NOT COMPARE WITH THE OLD DATA NOR

QL0672'DID THE ANGLE BETWEEN REFERENCE MARK 1 AND 2. THE DISTANCE TO

QL0672'REFERENCE MARK 1 WAS ALSO FOUND TO BE SHORTER BY 0.026 OF A METER.

QL0672'THE TO REACH FOR THIS STATION IS STILL ADEQUATE TO FIND THE STATION.

QL0672'

QL0672'THE STATION IS A STANDARD NGS DISK STAMPED--LORETTA 1954 1984--, SET

QL0672'INTO THE TOP OF A ROUND CONCRETE MONUMENT, 10 INCHES (30 CM) IN

QL0672'DIAMETER, PROJECTING 1 INCH (3 CM) ABOVE THE GROUND. THE STATION IS

QL0672'LOCATED 10.363 METERS (33.999 FT) WEST FROM THE APPROXIMATE CENTERLINE

QL0672'OF GRAVEL ROAD, 1.524 METERS (5.000 FT) EAST FROM A NORTH-SOUTH FENCE

QL0672'LINE AND 0.457 METERS (1.499 FT) EAST FROM A METAL WITNESS POST.

QL0672'

Edited August 30, 2006 by Z15

[lost02]

Z15 – thanks for the info. So then based on your log entry I would log it as “Good”, or “Poor” (since there is no reference to how it was reset). I was going to use this for the text:

 

Use with caution. The Station Mark and Reference Mark 1 now have an additional date stamp of 1999 (1985 and 1999). Reference Mark 2 has a date stamp of 1985. Also note that U.S. 666 is now U.S. 191.

[Z15]

I would log it like NGS, MARK NOT FOUND

 

What is in the field is not what is described in the datasheet so you could not have found the original mark. Its likely the paperword has never caught up or for some reason they (whomever reset it) are holding back from furnishing that info.

 

Here is another with 2 dates on the mark

 

RL1664_STAMPING: BATES 1954 1988

RL1664_MARK LOGO: NGS

RL1664_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL

RL1664_STABILITY: A = MOST RELIABLE AND EXPECTED TO HOLD

RL1664+STABILITY: POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

RL1664_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR

RL1664+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - July 12, 1988

RL1664

RL1664 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

RL1664 HISTORY - 19880712 MONUMENTED NGS

RL1664 HISTORY - 19950207 GOOD LOCENG

RL1664

RL1664 STATION DESCRIPTION

RL1664

RL1664'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1988

RL1664'THE STATION IS LOCATED IN QUAD. 460883, 9.7 KM (6.0 MI) EAST OF IRON

RL1664'RIVER, 3.2 KM (2.0 MI) EAST OF BATES AND AT THE SITE OF THE OLD BATES

RL1664'FOREST SERVICE LOOKOUT TOWER, NOW BEING USED FOR SATELITE

RL1664'COMMUNICATION, ETC. THERE ARE SEVERAL RADIO TOWERS THERE AT THE

RL1664'SITE.

RL1664'TO REACH THE STATION FROM BATES, AT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL, GO EAST ON U.S.

RL1664'HIGHWAY 2 FOR 3.64 KM (2.26 MI) TO A SIDE ROAD RIGHT, OLD HIGHWAY 2.

RL1664'TURN SHARP RIGHT AND GO SOUTH FOR 0.35 KM (0.22 MI) TO A GRAVEL SIDE

RL1664'ROAD LEFT, BATES TOWER ROAD. TURN LEFT AND GO EAST AND SOUTH FOR

RL1664'0.48 KM (0.30 MI) TO A GATE. PASS THRU GATE AND CONTINUE EAST FOR

RL1664'0.12 KM (0.07 MI) TO THE OLD LOOKOUT TOWER AND THE STATION.

RL1664'THE STATION WAS RECOVERED WITH THE DISK REMOVED, BUT THE STEM IN PLACE

RL1664'AND THE MONUMENT STILL INTACT. THIS POINT WAS HELD FIXED AND A DISK

RL1664'WAS SET INTO A DRILL HOLE IN THE EXISTING MONUMENT.

RL1664'THE MARK IS SET FLUSH WITH THE GROUND. IT IS LOCATED ABOUT 12.5 M

RL1664'(41.0 FT) SOUTH-SOUTHWEST FROM THE SOUTHEAST LEG AND 12.2 M

RL1664'(40.0 FT) SOUTH FROM THE SOUTHWEST LEG OF THE LOOKOUT TOWER.

RL1664'RECOVERY BY RONALD L. RAMSEY, NGS GEODETIC ADVISOR - MICHIGAN.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Z15

[lost02]

Z15 – OK, thanks - "NOT FOUND" it is. I was going by the History for QL0672 where every entry is “GOOD”. I guess the difference is that when you found it broken off you logged how you reset it where in CY1254 there’s no mention of what happened?

[andylphoto]

Okay...here's another similar mark. I searched for yesterday, and found "LORETTA RESET." I have not logged it yet, but will today or tomorrow with pictures. I found all four marks photographed by beardawg in the existing log.

 

Geocaching

NGS

 

It's a horizontal control disk, and the stamping is as Z15 described: LORETTA 1954 1984. The datasheet identifies its monumentation as 1984, with the designation "LORETTA RESET". The description identifies the stamping as "LORETTA 1954 1984." However, this is not included in the Geocaching datasheet. You have to go to the NGS datasheet to get the additional information.

 

QL0672_MARKER: DH = HORIZONTAL CONTROL DISK

QL0672_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

QL0672_SP_SET: SQUARE CONCRETE MONUMENT

QL0672_STAMPING: LORETTA 1954 1984

QL0672_MARK LOGO: NGS

QL0672_PROJECTION: PROJECTING 3 CENTIMETERS

QL0672_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL

QL0672_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

QL0672_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR

QL0672+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - May 30, 2001

[mloser]

Rule of thumb--trust ONLY the NGS datasheet. All others are just cheap imitations. Don't even trust the link on the Geocaching site for the NGS datasheet. It is a few years old and often out of date.

[Z15]

Andy,

 

I was the person who found the mark knocked (NGS took credit LOL) out back around 1984 and dug up the ug mark but covered it over.. The NGS advisor always told me to find him some marks in the UP to come and reset. This was one of them, funny he did not want to come up all the way to GAY. In 1992 we (MDOT) did a big GPS project in the area for US2 IMT bypass and Powers to Norway US2 upgrades. Thats when this mark got upgraded to First Order. NGS RLR wanted us to include it in our project. Project covered from about Sagola South to Pembine over to Bark River. I had to setup on LORETTA for 5.5 hrs one night.

 

One thing interesting about the original LORETTA disk, One side said USC & GS and stamped LOREETA but when I busted it out of the concrete, the disk was cast with the USGS logo on the bottom and the stem was brazed on. Strange, I wish I kept it.

 

ERF that found the mark in 2001 had worked on my crew in 2000 (MTU survery student) and is/was from Iron River and his dad was well known {up wide} basketball coach.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Z15

[andylphoto]

Mike,

 

Thanks for the background info on this disk! It's always interesting to hear some history behind these things.

 

On this trip, my wife and I were making a quick trip down to catch the end of the Dickinson Co. fair, and I just wanted to grab a couple of quick ones on the way without taking too much time, so I was looking for Horiz. control right in the Noway area. I looked at several of the ones from the 1992 project...The USPSQD made a run on those in April of this year, so I went for VULCAN and LORETTA.

[Bill93]

How would you report NM1657? Maybe POOR?

 

This is a CGS disk with ADJUSTED horizontal second order, and VERTCON elevation value, which has been reset without an update to the NGS data sheet.

 

My guess is that the disk was lowered and the horizontal position held. If so, the elevation is wrong and the horizontal order should be degraded.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

If I were there, I would've logged the mark as Not Found. (Very sadly, I admit. )

 

A reset disk with no acknowledgement of the resetting in the datasheet is a no-find.

 

Here is a similar case. I checked with Deb at the NGS via email on this one. She confirmed that it is a reset with no PID. (Here is the current NGS page.)

 

It does appear that the disk is the original one, stamped with a stamping set on-site. Nevertheless, it is not a find of NM1657.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Black Dog Trackers

[+bvrballs]

Well, having read everything posted, I'd have to say that, if you want info on the mark, go to the source. Don't know if they will respond, but since the mark is owned by AZ Dept. of Trans., you might try contacting them. So far I have has some success when contacting the USGS (who indicated that they don't mind us asking and would love to have recovery reports for their marks) and the city engineer for Long Beach. On both occations I was able to get them to give me information to verify either the recovery or loss of the mark I was looking for.

 

Scott

[+Black Dog Trackers]

It is true that many, possibly a majority of, marks were not set by the NGS or its predecessor the C&GS. However, to be in the NGS database, their location measurements must be sent to and approved by the NGS. Here is the issue with contacting the source as illustrated in this timeline, where the numbered events are separated by days, months, or years.

 

1. Agency X sets a mark.

2. Agency X, or another agency, or even the NGS sends geodetic measurements for that mark to the NGS.

3. The NGS puts the mark in its database after approval of the measurements. They call the mark PD1234.

4. The mark gets lost, destroyed, or whatever.

5. Agency X re-sets the mark and stamps it RESET, usually getting a whole new disk and stamping it RESET.

6. Agency X does not send this reset mark's geodetic information to the NGS and no one else does either.

 

In this case, as far as Agency X is concerned, the reset is, of course, a perfectly good mark for their use and constitutes a replacement of their old mark. It is certainly possible that its data meets or exceed the quality requirements of the NGS. It is even possible that the location of the reset mark is within a millimeter in all dimensions of the position of the original mark.

 

However, in this case, as far as the NGS is concerned, Agency X's reset mark and its data doesn't exist in its (the NGS) database and is not PD1234.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Black Dog Trackers