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Logs public or private domain


Cowrie
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I just had my first experience having my log deleted by the owner of a cache :o. I actually never knew this was an option. I posted a log that indicated that I was not comfortable with a location, and did not recommend anyone to go there solo. After 58 finds, this was the first cache I would NOT recommend. Unfortunately, no one will hear my humble opinion because the owner deleted my log. I am having a struggle with the idea that the owners have power to expunge logs.

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If your log was a warning to others, I don't see that as a really good reason to delete the log.

 

However if someone posts a blatant spoiler on the log telling people exactly where to find the cache, puts in blatantly false information, posts a fake find, or makes a personal attack or some other sort of antisocial log, then I would have no problem with the log being deleted.

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Not that I recommend it but you can turn it into a test of will power.

 

You re-log it. He deletes it. Repeat until one of you gets tired.

 

Even negative comments should be left alone - just not reason enough for deleting it but again that is why you get notified of the deletion. So you can try to do something about it. Yes some owners abuse the privelege but there are valid reasons so for now the power stays.

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Not that I recommend it but you can turn it into a test of will power.

 

You re-log it. He deletes it. Repeat until one of you gets tired.

 

Even negative comments should be left alone - just not reason enough for deleting it but again that is why you get notified of the deletion. So you can try to do something about it. Yes some owners abuse the privelege but there are valid reasons so for now the power stays.

 

It's great that you can voice your opinion here, but even with the disclaimer, advising such terrible behavior is, in my humble opinion, a bit inconsiderate, even reckless disregard for the rules and ethics of the community.

 

I own my caches, therefore I make the rules for my caches. Groundspeak has some rules and guidelines my cache must conform to if it is to be listed on geocaching.com, but that infers no ownership right or priveledge... they can only decide to list it or not.

 

All ownership rights remain with me, just as they do for my car. I may let you drive it, but I won't let you race it or drive it drunk.

 

As the owner my published listing invites you to visit and log my cache only if you agree to conform to my expectations, reasonable or otherwise.

 

He who has the gold makes the rules, right? :o

 

Ed

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Not that I recommend it but you can turn it into a test of will power.

 

You re-log it. He deletes it. Repeat until one of you gets tired.

 

Even negative comments should be left alone - just not reason enough for deleting it but again that is why you get notified of the deletion. So you can try to do something about it. Yes some owners abuse the privelege but there are valid reasons so for now the power stays.

 

It's great that you can voice your opinion here, but advising such terrible behavior is, in my humble opinion, a bit inconsiderate, even reckless disregard for the rules and ethics of the community.

 

I own my caches, therefore I make the rules for my caches. Groundspeak has some rules and guidelines my cache must conform to if it is to be listed on geocaching.com, but that infers no ownership right or priveledge... they can only decide to list it or not.

 

All ownership rights remain with me, just as they do for my car. I may let you drive it, but I won't let you race it or drive it drunk.

 

As the owner my published listing invites you to visit and log my cache only if you agree to conform to my expectations, reasonable or otherwise.

 

He who has the gold makes the rules, right? :o

 

Ed

 

Just who would be doing that "terrible behavior" - the owner deleting a valid log? or the user trying to let the world know his thoughts?

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Logs public or private domain, Why do owners delete logs

You attached something to a webpage they (the cache owner) basically controls. They didn't like whatever it was you posted, or the way you posted it, or the reason you posted,(or something) and deleted it from view.

Some cache owners don't like people that included anything about the cache container or location posted as they see it as a spoiler. Some don't like anything negative (no matter how true it may be) posted. There are likely dozens of other personal reasons someone might delete your logs.

I think you should try contacting the owner (in a polite way) and asking them what you could change to make the log acceptable to them.

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You guys are getting pretty upset, considering we have no idea what the original log's verbiage was.

 

I guess I should use smilies, I am not upset at all and didn't mean to sound forceful.

 

I just tried to express my feelings about ownership and the inherent rights and privledges that I think many misunderstand.

 

Because it is publicly listed, because you are invited to find it, does not mean you have any control over it.

 

I have to say that this has never happened on one of my caches, but that doesn't change anything.

 

If I don't like your log I can delete it for whatever reason I make up. Again, I personally won't, but as the owner I can!

 

Whether it's polite, fits community standards and whether anyone would hunt my caches after that is irrelevant to my right to delete anything I don't like.

 

Now, having established ownership rights, I have to say that deleting any but the crudest of logs is tacky!

 

Ed

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You guys are getting pretty upset, considering we have no idea what the original log's verbiage was.
Quite true - you have a point - but assuming the OP had an accurate description......

If he gave a fair warning to future finders, the log should have stayed. However, if he was a jerk about it, many cache owners would have deleted his log. I don't think that extra thick skin should be a requirement of playing this simple game. The forums, however, that's a different story... :o

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You guys are getting pretty upset, considering we have no idea what the original log's verbiage was.
Quite true - you have a point - but assuming the OP had an accurate description......

If he gave a fair warning to future finders, the log should have stayed. However, if he was a jerk about it, many cache owners would have deleted his log. I don't think that extra thick skin should be a requirement of playing this simple game. The forums, however, that's a different story... :o

Agreed

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I am having a struggle with the idea that the owners have power to expunge logs.

 

You're not the only one. Some folks simply don't take their responsibility seriously. Some even go so far as think it's perfectly acceptable to delete logs on a whim for whatever reason they choose.

 

There is a reason for the ability to delete logs, but there is no accountability for abuse of said power. Authority without accountability is always a volatile mix.

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I just had my first experience having my log deleted by the owner of a cache :o. I actually never knew this was an option. I posted a log that indicated that I was not comfortable with a location, and did not recommend anyone to go there solo. After 58 finds, this was the first cache I would NOT recommend. Unfortunately, no one will hear my humble opinion because the owner deleted my log. I am having a struggle with the idea that the owners have power to expunge logs.

 

I might try re-writing the log. Rephrasing it so its obvious to anyone seeking the cache that you wouldn't recommend it, but don't be rude about the cache.

 

i.e.

 

The log

This is the crapiest cache I've been to yet. The location sucks, the contents suck, I would not recommend this cache to anyone with half a brain

 

is likely to be deleted.

 

The log

This cache could really do with some owner attention. Contents seem to have degraded quite a bit (only broken plastic and soggy paper left in the cache), and I wonder if the cache owner knows that there is a homeless camp right next door. Also found a bunch of used needles close to the cache site (called the authorities and had them dispose of them properly). I'd steer clear of this cache for the time being if I were you, or at least be extra careful hunting as I really didn't feel safe hunting for this cache.

 

Gets the same message across, but I don't think would be as likely to be deleted.

 

Remember the cache owner may miss a lot of things when they place a cache. Quite ofter there are things within your 'circle of error' that you had no idea were there.

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I am having a struggle with the idea that the owners have power to expunge logs.

 

I am having a struggle with how anyone could have any belief that property ownership is somehow limited or affected by visitors.

 

You can visit my house but you don't own it. Go by my rules or I can boot you out the door. If I say people with red shirts are unwelcome in my house, you can't come in!

 

You can visit my cache but you don't own it. If I say you have to write a 500 word poem about what a wonderful man I am in order to log it, get to writing or move on!

 

Again, I would never ask this, but I can if I want to. That's what ownership is all about.

 

Ed

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I have never deleted a log without asking the logger to change it first.

I have deleted logs that use tracking codes for TBs.

 

I have requested that logs be changed or deleted on caches several times;

In one case a cacher looked for a challenging cache did not find it and used the Found log.

In one case a person simply put a straightforward spoiler in the log.

 

I have left Multiple Found logs on caches, if the cache is not intended to be a challenging hunt I leave the log alone and hope that someday they come back and change it, I really don't want to get involved in the calculation of someone's Found count and do not want to try and control other geocachers.

 

In the case of a challenging hide I feel that I am protecting the logs of those who have already found the cache. Some of my caches can take a lot of work to find and those who do find them deserve to be on the short list, those who crash that party get turfed.

 

I used to think I would never delete a log, "let them play their own game" was something I acccepted. Today I realize that I have an obligation to the community and to individual cachers. As a cache owner I have to delete the logs of offenders, no one else can. If you post a TB code in your log I will delete it the next day after sending you an email. I don't care if you visit this site or not, the next day your log is gone. The TB owner cannot do anything about people who place the secret TB code in a log, they have to depend upon the cache owner.

 

Many geocachers cannot resist a spoiler, I am often surprised to see some of the outright "tells" that appear on my caches. I send emails asking for the logs to be changed and so far every one has complied. If someone didn't comply I would delete the log.

 

I would never delete a log that expressed an opinion about a location or a hide, people are free to hate my caches, just don't put spoilers in the log or use a TB tracking code.

 

There may be other circumstances that would cause me to delete a log, experience is the best teacher and I have found that the more I geocache the more I learn about geocaching. We are defining the sport as we go along and that is part of the excitement. I have one cache that has two logs, back to back, where the first person says " a unique location for the final hide " and the next cacher says "really didn't care for the final location at all", that in a nutshell, is geocaching.

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Link the cache here in the forums. This is the proper place to air your opinions. OTOH, if the cache area has become a truly dangerous area, log a SBA. Whether the cache owner deletes or not, the reviewers will see it. Don't use the SBA option frivolously (like if you just don't like the cache).

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Definitely learn to use polite tact in your logs. I think it is also important to distinguish what aspect of the cache you didn't like. Was it the condition of the container and swag? If so, that's something we can easily fix with some maintenance. Was it the way it was hidden? Was it the general location the cache brought you to? Was there some problem with the surrounding area that may or may not have existed when the cache was hidden?

 

I recently did a cache that had the "scenic view" attribute. When you got there, you were on an underused country road, directly under a set of bridges for the 4-lane freeway above. The overpass bridge piers were covered in graffiti.

 

My log said "I'm not sure I would call this a scenic view, but it certainly was a unique vantage point."

 

I did another where I logged a DNF, as did the last few cachers, and we were all clearly unhappy about it (including the last person to find it):

 

June 24: First find of the evening. I think I spent more time looking for parking than looking for the cache. Cache is quite waterlogged and I don't mean mean the contents. It's not a very good container for it. Eventually, the elements are going to destroy this cache.

 

July 30: Unless our gps was totally off, this is not a spot we would go back to again - garbage everywhere, dog crap in the tall grass and adjacent home owners not happy with people looking around. Additional hint of no help either. Too bad.

 

August 22 (my log): Yeah, I didn't see it either. I did see the crap in the grass, lots of it, as well as trash, bottles, and junk everywhere. I wasn't too impressed with this one, and I don't think it can still be there given the size of the container I see in the photos and the area to search.

I did find pretty easy parking, though.

 

The cache was archived by the reviewer less than an hour after I posted my log.

Edited by GreyingJay
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The cache was archived by the reviewer less than an hour after I posted my log.

I suspect that it was archived because it had been MIA for months and the owner wasn't responsive. It likely didn't have a thing to do with parking, dog feces, high grass, or trash. <Insert CITO comment here.>

 

I would also expect the reviewers to not archive a cache because of 'danger'. I would understand if they required a warning or higher terrain rating.

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The cache was archived by the reviewer less than an hour after I posted my log.

I suspect that it was archived because it had been MIA for months and the owner wasn't responsive. It likely didn't have a thing to do with parking, dog feces, high grass, or trash.

 

You're right, that's the reason the reviewer cited. (Owner hadn't logged in for over a month.) However, logs like these do have an impact. If a bunch of people started posting DNF's on your cache citing dog crap and trash, you'd surely be out there ASAP to verify if the cache was still there (and hopefully move it elsewhere). The fact that these kinds of logs were still coming in was a red flag to the reviewer to check the cache owner's account, and that's why he decided to archive it.

 

The container, by the way, was a cardboard box.

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The cache was archived by the reviewer less than an hour after I posted my log.

I suspect that it was archived because it had been MIA for months and the owner wasn't responsive. It likely didn't have a thing to do with parking, dog feces, high grass, or trash.

 

You're right, that's the reason the reviewer cited. (Owner hadn't logged in for over a month.) However, logs like these do have an impact. If a bunch of people started posting DNF's on your cache citing dog crap and trash, you'd surely be out there ASAP to verify if the cache was still there (and hopefully move it elsewhere). The fact that these kinds of logs were still coming in was a red flag to the reviewer to check the cache owner's account, and that's why he decided to archive it.

 

The container, by the way, was a cardboard box.

It would still be about the DNFs, not about the trash. However, I might put a CITO invitation in the description.
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I actually found the cache in question and thought it was a pretty interesting place to visit, and understood the location for the cache itself since there weren't too many places to hide a cache in such a wide open park.

 

It was my 2nd visit while geocaching to this same park. I have deleted logs on caches I own. The cache in question is not my cache though. The owner of the cache IMHO should contact the log owner and let them know why they deleted it -- unless the deletion it self evident (like abusive or cursing or giving away cache puzzle/location).

 

If this particular cacher thought poorly of the park and thought there was a better place in that same general area to place a cache that was as muggle-proof, I'd say they should have suggested that rather than state anything about the location that ended up being selected.

 

This is a really nice park in Harrisonburg VA. People walking their dogs (on leash). Kids playing sports. Family playground. Wide open space. Wonderful walking track. Sadly they did not install any noise abatement barriers from the nearby interstate highway though.

 

Just my thoughts since I have actually been there.

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I just had my first experience having my log deleted by the owner of a cache :laughing:. I actually never knew this was an option. I posted a log that indicated that I was not comfortable with a location, and did not recommend anyone to go there solo. After 58 finds, this was the first cache I would NOT recommend. Unfortunately, no one will hear my humble opinion because the owner deleted my log. I am having a struggle with the idea that the owners have power to expunge logs.

Why would you not want to go there alone?

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I own my caches, therefore I make the rules for my caches. [...] As the owner my published listing invites you to visit and log my cache only if you agree to conform to my expectations, reasonable or otherwise.

 

While I agree that you own the cache, I suspect a really good argument can be made that Groundspeak owns the web logs for your cache.

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Why would you not want to go there alone?

 

Here's one example

Yah, well, that experience was terrible...and in defense of that cache, 25 other people complained of nothing worse than having to watch where they stepped before the truely awful experience in the logged you pointed to...

 

...but that was in Minnesota, and the original poster was in Virginia, probably (at least that is where they cached most recently).

 

The possibilities are endless, you know. I'm curious why the original poster didn't like the idea of caching alone in the area of that particular cache.

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I own my caches, therefore I make the rules for my caches. [...] As the owner my published listing invites you to visit and log my cache only if you agree to conform to my expectations, reasonable or otherwise.

 

While I agree that you own the cache, I suspect a really good argument can be made that Groundspeak owns the web logs for your cache.

 

Dunno, I am no lawyer. Fortunately, Groundspeak has come down repeatedly on this issue on the side of the hider owning and controlling the logs, so it doesn't matter whether they could claim ownership - they don't. :laughing:

 

Ed

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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