+PAWSitraction Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I'm browsing a route in Michigan along US 31, and I come across this cache. Cool, sez I, I can stop by, maybe trade a bug or something, since it's in a roadside park. The only thing I'm trading, IF I can get one ready in time, is a "Get out of TB prison free" bug, thanks to this line in the TB description: " IF YOU TAKE A TB AND DON’T LEAVE ONE IN ITS STEAD, WE WILL DELETE YOUR LOG!" Which I think is really funny, considering they mention "other people's valuable TBs" in the previous line. Yeah, sparky, maybe those "other people" would like their "valuable TBs" to be MOVING ALONG, hey? Quote Link to comment
+Tharagleb Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 If I ever found the cache I would just take all TB's out and not log it at all. I hate TB prisons. 1 Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) Boy, some people really put a lot of stock in a silly ol' smiley. Oh please, please, don't punish me and delete my log! boo hoo So they delete my log, I'll still have 9 TBs. (and I was just in South Haven, dang it!) Edited August 23, 2006 by BlueDeuce Quote Link to comment
+the hermit crabs Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I'm kind of tempted to create a TB prison myself. It would have a little plexiglass divider down the middle, separating the "prisoner" side from the "visitor" side. The "prisoner" side would have iron bars. The bugs on the "prisoner" side would all be TBs that are owned by owners of TB "Hotel"/prisons. They would have hostage-swapping rules: they could only leave the prison if replaced by other bugs owned by other prison wardens. The "visitor" side would just be regular bugs that can come and go with no restrictions -- take some, leave some, whatever. If that side is empty, then the "prisoner" bugs have no visitors and nothing to do but press their noses forlornly against the plexiglass or clang their little tin cups against the prison bars. Logistically this would be impossible, unfortunately. But it was fun to dream it. Quote Link to comment
+PAWSitraction Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Boy, some people really put a lot of stock in a silly ol' smiley. Oh please, please, don't punish me and delete my log! boo hoo So they delete my log, I'll still have 9 TBs. (and I was just in South Haven, dang it!) *snort* Yeah...I was sorta thinking the same thing. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I'm kind of tempted to create a TB prison myself. It would have a little plexiglass divider down the middle, separating the "prisoner" side from the "visitor" side. The "prisoner" side would have iron bars. The bugs on the "prisoner" side would all be TBs that are owned by owners of TB "Hotel"/prisons. They would have hostage-swapping rules: they could only leave the prison if replaced by other bugs owned by other prison wardens. The "visitor" side would just be regular bugs that can come and go with no restrictions -- take some, leave some, whatever. If that side is empty, then the "prisoner" bugs have no visitors and nothing to do but press their noses forlornly against the plexiglass or clang their little tin cups against the prison bars. Logistically this would be impossible, unfortunately. But it was fun to dream it. I know some people who know some people, I'm sure something just as evil could be worked out. Quote Link to comment
+the hermit crabs Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I'm kind of tempted to create a TB prison myself. It would have a little plexiglass divider down the middle, separating the "prisoner" side from the "visitor" side. The "prisoner" side would have iron bars. The bugs on the "prisoner" side would all be TBs that are owned by owners of TB "Hotel"/prisons. They would have hostage-swapping rules: they could only leave the prison if replaced by other bugs owned by other prison wardens. The "visitor" side would just be regular bugs that can come and go with no restrictions -- take some, leave some, whatever. If that side is empty, then the "prisoner" bugs have no visitors and nothing to do but press their noses forlornly against the plexiglass or clang their little tin cups against the prison bars. Logistically this would be impossible, unfortunately. But it was fun to dream it. I know some people who know some people, I'm sure something just as evil could be worked out. Then let the prisoner collection begin! Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) I am resisting the urge to email this cache owner and explain to them that they are not the boss of the travel bugs. I cannot, and will not, become the TB police. It would become a full time job, with very little pay. But if anyone would like to post a link to this thread and any other TB Prison thread link on their cache page, feel free. You can quote me, with this thread link attached. I will say this for the benefit of TB prison owners. Travel bugs belong to the Travel Bug owner. You cannot dictate that they must stay in a cache until a trade can be made. They are not yours to rule over. If a cacher wants to trade for a TB, take a TB and not leave one, or drop one off and not take one, that's how the game is played. You cannot hold them hostage until someone comes along with another travel bug to get it out of jail. If your cache is well placed, unlikely to be muggled, and easy to get to on a cacher's way through town, it will work regardless of rules. Your rules are unfair to all Travel Bug owners, and most travel bug owners would not want their travel bugs held prisoner in your cache. Any cache is a good cache for a travel bug. Telling people you will delete their logs if they don't comply would be more apt to make one avoid your cache like the plague. I sincerely hope you rethink your cache page and change your inappropriate rules. It's your cache, but it's not your travel bug (and neither are the Green Jeeps, in this particular case). Eartha Volunteer Groundspeak Travel Bug Forum Moderator Edited August 23, 2006 by Eartha 1 Quote Link to comment
+Lemon Fresh Dog Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) I say that we should get the bugs free, then get everyone from the forum to post a "Find" on the cache. Then a "note", then some more "finds" Wait a week until they are deleted. Do it again. This means that if 30 people each make 10 logs, the owner has to delete 300! -- LOG BOMBING! -- I'm joking of course. Edited August 23, 2006 by Lemon Fresh Dog Quote Link to comment
+Arrow One Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I say someone goes to the cache, gets all the bugs, and leaves a "Get out of jail free" card from the monopoly game. Then posta note... "Prison Break"!! Quote Link to comment
+Lemon Fresh Dog Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 For some reason -- I'm feeling a little less grumpy at the moment. It just might be possible that this cache owner has the best of intentions and really just wants to have a nice place for Travel Bugs. A quick note from a local cacher in a polite tone may be all that is needed to reassure them that a well placed cache is sure to attract Travel Bugs without the need to impose a rule such as the swap rule. I was thinking of creating a "hotel" of sorts in which I would send out a cool signature item for every Travel Bug that visited "Thanks for your stay at my cache" or some such thing. Of course, I like Travel Bugs to move THROUGH my caches. (except for one cache that had some Travel Bugs that wanted to stay in one place -- but those were all my TB's and not other people's) Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 For some reason -- I'm feeling a little less grumpy at the moment. It just might be possible that this cache owner has the best of intentions and really just wants to have a nice place for Travel Bugs. Oh I'm sure they do, it's just that one for one trade restrictions isn't supporting Tbs. It's a misguided sense of fair play Threatening people with log deletion for moving travel bugs is warped sense of fair play. dadgum the smiley, full speed ahead! Quote Link to comment
Mustcache Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Now, perhaps someone could bookmark this and other "prisons". This bookmark was placed on my TB Hotel and I consider it a compliment. Perhaps the other extreme will work also. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Perhaps this one by the same guy? TravelBug Prisons Quote Link to comment
+manchanegra Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I think that this kind of rules are an abuse. I normally used this TB Hotel : Lisbon's Travel Bug Hotel - http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...90-d3a135982f5e . The rule say´s that you must trade bugs and there should be at least 3 bugs in the cache, but, even if theres nothing writen, if you could help the TB, the owner doesn´t mind if you take a bug and left none, or, if you leave just 3 bugs in the cache. 3 days ago i left 2 bugs that want to travel across the Atlantic and today i´ve picked a GC that arrived yesterday. In both cases there were no trade, and, it´s not the first time that i´ve picked bugs without leaving none. If i can help the bug (sometimes we cant see what the mission is when we are at the cache) i will take him. Even if that means making the cache owner hangry. Too bad for him. Not so long ago, someone asked that his TB would be moved from the cache. Someone beat me on that one or i would have moved him to another cache. People just have to understand that the main purpose is to help the Bugs achieving their mission and not some cache owners rules. Regards Alberto aka manchanegra Quote Link to comment
+PAWSitraction Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 PM'd him. Thanks! I'd forgotten who set up the Bookmark list, and I couldn't find it in the forums when I searched. I notice he's already added it... Quote Link to comment
+hiikaash Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I'm kind of tempted to create a TB prison myself. It would have a little plexiglass divider down the middle, separating the "prisoner" side from the "visitor" side. The "prisoner" side would have iron bars. The bugs on the "prisoner" side would all be TBs that are owned by owners of TB "Hotel"/prisons. They would have hostage-swapping rules: they could only leave the prison if replaced by other bugs owned by other prison wardens. The "visitor" side would just be regular bugs that can come and go with no restrictions -- take some, leave some, whatever. If that side is empty, then the "prisoner" bugs have no visitors and nothing to do but press their noses forlornly against the plexiglass or clang their little tin cups against the prison bars. Logistically this would be impossible, unfortunately. But it was fun to dream it. That would be a cool idea. It teaches them for what they do Quote Link to comment
+LZ33 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I don’t go to the trackable “Motels” and take all the trackables just because I can improve in all of the their goals thus leaving a Motel empty. I would like to show a little respect to the cache owner too. Deleting a log is a little abrasive. As most hotels states, “Who wants to go to a empty hotel?” I was at a hotel and this was listed as part of the etiquette of the hotel. “*“Discover” the trackables that you don’t take as a courtesy so the owners will be notified of their trackable’s status.” Quote Link to comment
+the hermit crabs Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I don’t go to the trackable “Motels” and take all the trackables just because I can improve in all of the their goals thus leaving a Motel empty. I would like to show a little respect to the cache owner too. Deleting a log is a little abrasive. As most hotels states, “Who wants to go to a empty hotel?” I was at a hotel and this was listed as part of the etiquette of the hotel. “*“Discover” the trackables that you don’t take as a courtesy so the owners will be notified of their trackable’s status.” If my TB is in one of these "hotels", what gives the cache owner the right to say who can or can't take it? It's my TB. Quote Link to comment
+Bear Paughs Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 The way I see it, a good TB hotel is one that helps its visitors by providing a convenient and accessible location to get them moving as quickly as possible. A good TB hotel's mission should be to serve the TBs (and provide a log for visitors to sign of course, therefore providing other incentive to be found.) So if you can further the TBs goals, you absolutely should, providing you want to, that is. In any case, you shouldn't be stopped from doing so because of a stupid rule implemented by someone who is not the TB owner. A good hotel won't care if its empty temporarily because it has serviced the former tenants well. Respect is shown to the cache owner by writing a nice log, not by leaving behind a TB you could have helped move. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 (edited) edit: Ok I've had my fun. back to being a mild mannered forum poster. Edited August 25, 2006 by BlueDeuce Quote Link to comment
+welch Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I don’t go to the trackable “Motels” and take all the trackables just because I can improve in all of the their goals thus leaving a Motel empty. I would like to show a little respect to the cache owner too. Deleting a log is a little abrasive. As most hotels states, “Who wants to go to a empty hotel?” I was at a hotel and this was listed as part of the etiquette of the hotel. “*“Discover” the trackables that you don’t take as a courtesy so the owners will be notified of their trackable’s status.” Um... Thats nice that they tell you send a post card to the owners of the TBs there, but if they were mine think I would much rather have someone retrieve my travelers and actually MOVE them to another cache. If a hotel is a good one (location, secure but easy to find/reach, etc) it will get travelers in and out on its own. If the owner has to make up some rules to trap a few TB there, or repeatly strips the area of TBs to keep their cache full, then it isn't a good hotel. And the owner should consider making changes to improve the hotel, or just making it a regular cache and not worry and keeping TBs there. Quote Link to comment
+PAWSitraction Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 I don’t go to the trackable “Motels” and take all the trackables just because I can improve in all of the their goals thus leaving a Motel empty. I would like to show a little respect to the cache owner too. Deleting a log is a little abrasive. As most hotels states, “Who wants to go to a empty hotel?” I was at a hotel and this was listed as part of the etiquette of the hotel. “*“Discover” the trackables that you don’t take as a courtesy so the owners will be notified of their trackable’s status.” Um... Thats nice that they tell you send a post card to the owners of the TBs there, but if they were mine think I would much rather have someone retrieve my travelers and actually MOVE them to another cache. If a hotel is a good one (location, secure but easy to find/reach, etc) it will get travelers in and out on its own. If the owner has to make up some rules to trap a few TB there, or repeatly strips the area of TBs to keep their cache full, then it isn't a good hotel. And the owner should consider making changes to improve the hotel, or just making it a regular cache and not worry and keeping TBs there. Exactly. We have a cache that is not a TB "hotel", but still seems to have a constant flow of TBs through it. It currently does not have any TBs in it, and I think that's the first time in over a year. We've never had to make a "rule" saying "leave at least one TB in the cache at all times!" - it just has a natural flow to it. I have a friend who has a TB hotel very near our non-hotel cache, which has no rules to it at all, and she never has a problem keeping it stocked with TBs. They get left there, traded in, traded out, whatever. If the cache is in danger of running out of TBs, (I've never seen it happen) she'll go out and find some that have been sitting a while in another cache or buy some tags, or whatever. I guess what I'm getting at is if it's a good TB Hotel, it doesn't need rules to keep it stocked - the location and name will naturally bring TBs to it. If it needs rules to keep it stocked, then it's not a good TB hotel - either it's not a good location, or there just isn't enough local interest yet, or whatever. In either case, it's not the finders' jobs to make sure the cache is well-stocked with TBs, just like it's ultimately not any other cacher's job to make sure my caches have a dry logbook with space left in it, a good, watertight container, or swag (for the caches that are supposed to have swag). It's the cache owner's job to make sure there's all the necessary elements to make it a good cache - and in the case of a TB hotel, that means restocking the cache with TBs, if necessary. Quote Link to comment
+Gamaliel Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Someone should release more of these useful TBs: http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=147298 Quote Link to comment
+MoxieMan Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I say someone goes to the cache, gets all the bugs, and leaves a "Get out of jail free" card from the monopoly game. Then posta note... "Prison Break"!! That is HILARIOUS!!! There are a couple TB Prisons near my home that just might have "breaks" in the near future... Run! Run Away!! Run and Be Freeeeee!!! Quote Link to comment
+KoosKoos Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 “Who wants to go to a empty hotel?” As a fairly frequent business traveler, I'd LOVE to go to an empty hotel!!! Quote Link to comment
+foundbutlost Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 I say someone goes to the cache, gets all the bugs, and leaves a "Get out of jail free" card from the monopoly game. Then posta note... "Prison Break"!! hmmmmm, sounds like a plan and a nice alias. I enjoy jail breaks. Quote Link to comment
+Belfrypotters Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 (edited) Sometimes breaking out the prisoners isn't so easy. "Opening the Safe" (GCXRNQ) was finally approved here. The owner has been collecting bugs and coins for months, including one of ours, just after we placed it in its first cache. Although this cache isn't listed as a TB hotel, there are 43 trackables in this prison. Over half of the trackables are coins he has purchased, so the poor old TBs are likely to be the last items taken from this cache. which is a PUZZLE listed as difficulty 3.5. I like puzzles as much as the next person (not much!) but even if his broken links get fixed, I'm not sure I'm ever going to solve this one. Odds are my poor bug will be there forever . Edited August 30, 2006 by Belfrypotters Quote Link to comment
+wavector Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Hi BelfryPotters That is one ugly cache and one totally inconsiderate geocacher. I would take the time to point out this thread so that the person who placed that geocache can get an earful. I find it tough to imagine that someone could actually be as brain dead as that person obviously is, he has taken the TB's of many geocachers out of play for months. Since you didn't mention an email from the placer asking for permission to keep your TB out of play for months then I have to assume that no one else was accorded this simple courtesy either. The pages on the items I checked were all clear, they wanted to travel from cache to cache and the owner's wishes have been completely ignored by this ignoramus, apparently all the TB's that he has found and kept were being kept to "aggrandize" this cache. I would make a concerted effort to look for this cache and then remove every trackable that was not owned by the placer and put them back in play, the owners of those items have given clear instuctions in almost every case. The clear risk of having 43 TB's in one cache is totally secondary to the incredible lack of common sense and courtesy displayed by this placer. I see many of those items were recently released just like your TB, this person seems oblivious to the fact that he has been taking the property of others geocachers and has kept these items out of play for months in some cases. There is no excuse to do something so unthinking beyond being an unthinking person and the cache is a good example of "it is all about me" gone mad. I would not hesitate to send a communication to the cache placer if one of my TB's was in that cache. Amazingly stupid cache placed by an amazingly ignorant and self centered cacher. If I was in your area I would definitely do a "jail break" to assist the geocachers who own those trackable items and get them back into play. If you do talk to the cache owner feel free to link my post so that the placer has an opportunity to explain his stupidity to everyone. I am worried that he is living in a vacuum and might actually be thinking that his cache is "good". Terrible cache, terrible manners, terrible situation for all those affected. Quote Link to comment
+Belfrypotters Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Amazingly stupid cache placed by an amazingly ignorant and self centered cacher. Thanks for the support and the sympathy, Wavector. I may send him an email asking him to spring the bugs himself, because I think the coins he owns would be incentive enough to bring the diehard puzzle fans to the cache, if the puzzle itself or the FTF prize doesn't. But I probably won't tell him he's stupid, ignorant and self centered ! My bug's life may be at stake. Quote Link to comment
+wavector Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 I say some amazingly stupid things! I apologize to the placer of that geocache for getting carried away. Though I may have said it is an amazingly stupid cache, it may actually have some merits as a geocache but the cacher who placed it is amazingly self-centered, if you went and took every one of his geocoins out of that cache and then kept them for months while you prepared your new cache I am guessing that there might be an objection. I do get aggravated by those unable to parse some very simple metrics in regards to TB's; they belong to other geocachers and when you help move them along you are helping other geocachers. The inverse of this is also true, every time you get a TB and hold on to it, or hinder it or take it out of play you are not helping other geocachers. I may actually like the cacher in person if we ever get a chance to meet each other and the cache actually looks kind of neat and would probably be fun to do but to gather up the TB's of many other geocachers and hold onto them for months with the intention of aggrandizing a geocache hide is either stupid or ignorant, even given that there are no rules you think that someone would start to wonder after the system flagged all the TB's as they went past the 14 days. I may be assuming he didn't ask the TB owners if he could keep the TB's and he might have, but if he made no arrangements with you I assume that he didn't for other TB owners either. Like those who believe TB's should be traded or those who impose trading restrictions on TB's the cure is a little bit of reading, these forums are littered the husks of former human beings who exist only to offer geocaching guidance. My words were harsh but that cache is a tragedy waiting to happen. It is the result of one person deciding to ignore the mission statement, the owner instructions and the site promptings for a lot of TBs including your own. Perhaps there is some authority that told him the purpose of TB's was to make his cache look good, he is welcome to cite that authority and I will gladly retract and redirect. Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 I posted a needs maintenance note on that cache page asking the cache owner ot please fix the broken link on his cache page. One link is broken and the other two link to cache pages that are not yet approved, so my guess is this cache is not ready to be enabled even. When he fixes it, I will delete my note. Please remember that we must respect our fellow cachers and forum users. We do not use words like stupid or ignoramus. Thank you for apologizing, wavevector, before I had to come in and slap you on the wrist. A thesaurus can go a long way in finding words to express our feelings about a cache, without reflecting that on the hider. Some people do like the challenge of a puzzle and others don't. That just means you need someone to help you, or you let someone else find it, and release the bugs. But by all means, let those Travel Bugs go! With some tweaking it could be fixed. The hider is offering some nice FTF and STF prizes, so maybe it's worht the effort to work it out. What concerns me most is the number of travel bugs at risk of being stolen all at once, if someone who knows nothing about caching comes along and finds the cache and takes it. Or worse. Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 The cache owner has already responded on the cache page and I am in communication with the owner now to get this cache corrected, and running properly. Please wait for results, and please remember our guidelines about respect and courtesy. Quote Link to comment
+PAWSitraction Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 I would like to put a bit of a HOORAY and THANK YOU in here to my fellow cachers and the cache owner! I just checked out the page of the cache mentioned in my OP again, and he's REMOVED the "YOUR LOG WILL BE DELETED" line. It's MUCH more TB-friendly now, and I'm *definitely* stopping at that TB Hotel now! He now says "feel free to take as many as you like, but please try to leaveat least 2 TBs in here". I don't think he'll have a problem with that, if it's as well-placed as I think it is. Quote Link to comment
+worldtraveler Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I would like to put a bit of a HOORAY and THANK YOU in here to my fellow cachers and the cache owner! I just checked out the page of the cache mentioned in my OP again, and he's REMOVED the "YOUR LOG WILL BE DELETED" line. It's MUCH more TB-friendly now, and I'm *definitely* stopping at that TB Hotel now! He now says "feel free to take as many as you like, but please try to leaveat least 2 TBs in here". I don't think he'll have a problem with that, if it's as well-placed as I think it is. Hmmm... looks like he's tweaked the wording yet again. The log deletion threat has indeed been dropped, but the 2-bug minimum is a requirement, not a request, at this time. From the cache page: Please feel free to take and/or trade as much as you want, but be sure there at least two TB's in here at all times. If the cache owner wants two travel bugs to remain in the cache at all times, he should buy two of his own and make that their mission. This cache is still a prison, not a hotel. Quote Link to comment
+Ma & Pa Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Got an email from the owner of a TB Hotel. He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there). He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. He said that if everyone acted like us, the hobby would have died a long time ago. He closes by saying that he hopes in the future that we will be more responsible and respectful of the basic rules in geocaching as well as those in society in general. He states the following on his cache page: FOR EXCHANGE of TRAVEL BUGs and GEOCOINS. You can take ONE TB OR ONE GEOCOIN without exchange if you are sure to move it in the right direction… Thanks. I looked closer at the cache page and his profile and at the list of past trackables that had been in the TB Hotel and I found the following. *One cacher had taken more than one TB in mid May but returned them and apologized for breaking the rules *The CO has logged over 4000 trackables. Likely he enjoys the high numbers so he discovers all the TB’s in his caches. *A number of the traackables had been in the cache for a long period, and had been discovered by a number of local cachers who had dropped by the cache to discover them. My reply stated my philosophy about trackables and I gave examples of all the TBs that we helped travel during our many trips. I mentioned that he had put 25 TB’s in his cache and wanted people to only take one. On that basis, some of those TB’ would never leave. I closed by saying that we would not change our approach with regard to Trackables. I suggessted that he get the opinion of other cachers. Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Got an email from the owner of a TB Hotel. He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there). He was not happy. He said he put his rules in large bold coloured letters and I had no excuse for taking that many. I support freedom for Trackables. Visit a TB Prison, retrieve a bunch, make a log in big bold colored letters, "Retrieved 15 Trackables, Left None" . But taking them all is just part of the equation. They also need to be promptly placed in suitable caches and logged. Which I hope is the point of rescuing them. I'd encourage cachers to take only the number of TBs that they can manage. Edited August 6, 2012 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+Ma & Pa Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I support freedom for Trackables. Visit a TB Prison, retrieve a bunch, make a log in big bold colored letters, "Retrieved 15 Trackables, Left None" . But taking them all is just part of the equation. They also need to be promptly placed in suitable caches and logged. Which I hope is the point of rescuing them. I'd encourage cachers to take only the number of TBs that they can manage. GOOD POINT In our mind the trackables (TB’s)want to travel so we like to help out. When we travel we take all the trackables with us that we find before leaving and on the way and drop them off in caches at our destination. We pick up all the trackables we see during our travels and bring them home with us. All the trackables that we bring home, get a visit to our Lobster cache for mileage and to entertain the TB owner. So far 466 trackables have visited that cache, even though there is no room for a trackable in the cache. We take many long trips that include geocaching. We took about 40 TB’s with us to California in April and brought about 40 back with us. The previous trip there, we moved over 50 in each direction. We took a bunch with us when we went to Virginia. It is about a 20 hour drive to get there but it took us 2 weeks because of caching. We picked up more in Quebec and Ontario on the way. We also picked up more in the US as we drove down. At one point during the trip we had over 50 with us and dropped them in caches during the trip. We picked up a few down in the US and brought them home with us. We often have WI-FI during our trips and we can check where the TB’s want to go and we try and help them. We have moved a lot of TB's to and from UK, Ireland, and all the way down I-95 from Maine to Florida We take all or nearly all the trackables out of the caches we visit, even the Hotels that may have rules about taking only as many as you leave. Some of the CO’s state that the rule is to ensure that there are trackables for the next person who wants to come and take some. This may be OK for Hotels on major highways and at airports, but in our experience most Hotels do not get visited much after the local cachers have logged it. So trackables often spend a lot of time in the older hotels. Bottom line to us is that trackables want to travel so we grab them all and move them. If a cache owner owns a Hotel it should be part of their responsibility to watch over that cache and move the TB’s that have been there a long time. On the same subject, I do not understand the new trend that sees cachers discovering trackables that they see in a cache but not taking it with them. To me this goes against what caching is all about. Caching works because people are doing things for others, for example, preparing caches, helping maintenance, holding events, moving trackables, etc. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 If there is even a veiled or implied threat of log deletion based on "rules" about trading trackables, this is an impermissible "Additional Logging Requirement." Write to the local volunteer cache reviewer or log a "Needs Archived" to make the restriction go away. Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I am bumping what I wrote way back when this thread first came out, and also, what Keystone said. The only "rule" for Trackables is to please move them along, and don't keep them. Cache owners cannot tell anyone how to handle a Trackable. Please read below. I am resisting the urge to email this cache owner and explain to them that they are not the boss of the travel bugs. I cannot, and will not, become the TB police. It would become a full time job, with very little pay. But if anyone would like to post a link to this thread and any other TB Prison thread link on their cache page, feel free. You can quote me, with this thread link attached. I will say this for the benefit of TB prison owners. Travel bugs belong to the Travel Bug owner. You cannot dictate that they must stay in a cache until a trade can be made. They are not yours to rule over. If a cacher wants to trade for a TB, take a TB and not leave one, or drop one off and not take one, that's how the game is played. You cannot hold them hostage until someone comes along with another travel bug to get it out of jail. If your cache is well placed, unlikely to be muggled, and easy to get to on a cacher's way through town, it will work regardless of rules. Your rules are unfair to all Travel Bug owners, and most travel bug owners would not want their travel bugs held prisoner in your cache. Any cache is a good cache for a travel bug. Telling people you will delete their logs if they don't comply would be more apt to make one avoid your cache like the plague. I sincerely hope you rethink your cache page and change your inappropriate rules. It's your cache, but it's not your travel bug (and neither are the Green Jeeps, in this particular case). Eartha Volunteer Groundspeak Travel Bug Forum Moderator Quote Link to comment
+The Blorenges Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Earlier today I saw this ancient topic bumped and it prompted me to look for where we can quote "chapter and verse" that trackables must travel freely, there is no requirement to trade trackable for trackable, and cache owner may not put restrictions on the travel of trackables in and out of their caches. The only place I can find this written down is in Eartha's pinned topic at the top of this forum. I couldn't find these points of trackable etiquette anywhere in the Help Center information pages, or on the How to use a trackable information page, or the Travel Bug FAQ page. Can anyone else find them, apart from at the top of this forum? If it's not anywhere else maybe it's info that should be added. MrsB Quote Link to comment
+Ma & Pa Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Can anyone else find them, apart from at the top of this forum? If it's not anywhere else maybe it's info that should be added. MrsB I agree. I have looked a long time and found nothing I have seen cachers use the following links to quotes from EARTHA when arguing on this topic. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=142059entry2422784 http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=272897entry4690169 http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=94185 I believe that Eartha has said to use these links which implies that there is nothing else on this topic in the guidelines. I have heard of a cacher posting these links in logs on a TB Hotel and the CO deleted the logs. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) As a practical matter, the difference today versus the "rules" when this thread was started many years ago was the prohibition of "Additional Logging Requirements." With the threat of deleting your log on the TB Prison cache being removed, all the controlling cache owner can do is bluster and sputter. If that blustering rises to the level of a website TOU violation, then further action may be warranted. If your valid "found it" log is deleted, write to Groundspeak and they will restore it. Volunteer cache reviewers now can point to the "ALR" prohibition when new caches are submitted and they contain restrictions about trackable items in the cache. Edited August 6, 2012 by Keystone Quote Link to comment
+Ma & Pa Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 As a practical matter, the difference today versus the "rules" when this thread was started many years ago was the prohibition of "Additional Logging Requirements." With the threat of deleting your log on the TB Prison cache being removed, all the controlling cache owner can do is bluster and sputter. If that blustering rises to the level of a website TOU violation, then further action may be warranted. If your valid "found it" log is deleted, write to Groundspeak and they will restore it. Volunteer cache reviewers now can point to the "ALR" prohibition when new caches are submitted and they contain restrictions about trackable items in the cache. I can see the ALR prohibition working where there is a threat of deletion of a FOUND log for not following the CO's TB restriction. However, the ALR prohibition does not cover cases where the CO has placed restrictions on TB removal but has not threatened log deletion. A clear guideline would avoid lots of conflict and would perhaps eliminate the insulting email I received in the case I cited above. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Got an email from the owner of a TB Hotel. He did a bit of digging and discovered that we had taken 15 TB’s (of the 25 in there). He was not happy. "I had permission to remove each and every one of those TBs from your cache. I'm sorry if the TB owners' desires are not in line with your wishes, but the TBs do not belong to you, and I must defer to their rightful owners." Quote Link to comment
DannyCaffeine Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Around here TB prison's are more like chests that get ravaged by thieves. Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 As a practical matter, the difference today versus the "rules" when this thread was started many years ago was the prohibition of "Additional Logging Requirements." With the threat of deleting your log on the TB Prison cache being removed, all the controlling cache owner can do is bluster and sputter. If that blustering rises to the level of a website TOU violation, then further action may be warranted. If your valid "found it" log is deleted, write to Groundspeak and they will restore it. Volunteer cache reviewers now can point to the "ALR" prohibition when new caches are submitted and they contain restrictions about trackable items in the cache. I can see the ALR prohibition working where there is a threat of deletion of a FOUND log for not following the CO's TB restriction. However, the ALR prohibition does not cover cases where the CO has placed restrictions on TB removal but has not threatened log deletion. A clear guideline would avoid lots of conflict and would perhaps eliminate the insulting email I received in the case I cited above. If he doesn't threaten log deletion then there is no problem. If there is no reprisal for violating his rules they are unenforceable. Also he has no control over the grab/retrieve TB log. If he does delete your log it isn't a big deal you can either report it and get it reinstated or do what I did once in Lake Havasu after one was deleted for not trading. I went back, took all the TBs and stated in my log that since this cache kept showing up as not found in my PQs I would have to keep coming back. That log wasn't deleted and I didn't go,back. Quote Link to comment
+Ma & Pa Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 If he doesn't threaten log deletion then there is no problem. If there is no reprisal for violating his rules they are unenforceable. Also he has no control over the grab/retrieve TB log. I agree and I will keep on taking all that I want. However, a clear instruction could stop cachers from placing those restrictions and would perhpas stop the harassing and rude emails from the CO's. Quote Link to comment
jholly Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If he doesn't threaten log deletion then there is no problem. If there is no reprisal for violating his rules they are unenforceable. Also he has no control over the grab/retrieve TB log. I agree and I will keep on taking all that I want. However, a clear instruction could stop cachers from placing those restrictions and would perhpas stop the harassing and rude emails from the CO's. Hopefully the rude and harassing emails are coming through the sites email system. If so, contact@geocaching.com can help you eliminate the emails. Quote Link to comment
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