Stealth Camping

[+GerbilMafia]

I would like to hear from the geo-community regarding the above topic.

 

Stealth camping is camping in such areas that people usually wouldn't or wouldn't be allowed to if permission was sought. Examples would be nature preserves, state parks, national parks, cemetaries, rail trails, etc. The theory is simple, blend in with nature, tread lightly, and leave no trace. If no one knows your there or knows you were there after you have gone and you had little to no impact of the environment, have you done anything wrong??

 

Geocaching and stealth camping go hand in hand. A stealth camper / geocacher could go on a muti day hiatus and enjoy both activities and truly have an adventure. Not to mention geocaching typically takes you to ideal areas such as those already mentioned.

 

My question is this: Stealth camping is an adventure in it's self and can be even more so when geocaching is thrown into the mix. Would this activity be something cache owners would like to see in log entries on their cache pages or should we continue to be "stealth" and say nothing? There are many "rules" to this game that we all know are not followed. I know alot of people are going to say that you should never camp somewhere without permission but we all know that permission was not granted to hide every single geocache out there. What is the difference? In many cases geocaching has more of a negative impact than stealth camping with litter, geo-trails, etc.

 

Just wondering how the majority feel about this topic.

[+GerbilMafia]

I forgot to mention that I typically geocache and camp in Indiana and nearby MIDWEST states and would like to hear from folks from this area.....

[+Runaround]

If you're going to chose to break the law, I don't think admitting it in a public place like a cache log is good idea. Besides, many cache owners do the right thing and go out of their way to get permission for a cache. Often the body that gave the permission also monitors the cache page. I'm guessing you would be the log responsible for getting the permission pulled and the cache archived.

[+2qwerqE]

... There are many "rules" to this game that we all know are not followed. I know alot of people are going to say that you should never camp somewhere without permission but we all know that permission was not granted to hide every single geocache out there. What is the difference? In many cases geocaching has more of a negative impact than stealth camping with litter, geo-trails, etc.

 

 

Ah, the joys of gross generalizations and circular if-then rationalizations. Both are just tools used to convince yourself that what you already know is wrong can be justified and made OK.

 

Sorry, I'm not seeking to flame you, but I call em as I see em. Camp in designated camping places.

 

Some of them are remote, quiet, beautiful and secluded. Try this one:Ultimate Camp Cache in Deam Wilderness, about 15 miles SE of Bloomington. This area is peppered with individual remote primitive camp sites.

[+GerbilMafia]

I didn't say break the law, I said camp where you normally wouldn't and that permission probably wouldn't be granted. It is not illegal to be in these area's at night as long as it's not posted. If it is posted then stay out. Maybe the word "camping" shouldn't be used, maybe I should just say that I enjoyed the cache location all night long. Flame away, you won't hurt my feelings, I was simply wondering how the majority of geacachers felt about this. We all chose to play this game differently.

[+Lord Elwood]

There is a fault to your logic. That being you are overlooking the idea of Trespassing. And Trespassing is illegal. As for posting that there is no trespassing, that is not a viable defense because ignorance is not a defense.

 

Now, when I say ignorance, I'm not meaning you are ignorant, I am meaning ignorance of the laws, or ignornace of property lines.

[+SixDogTeam]

PASS THE POPCORN!!

[+Team Neos]

Hey, I just saw this. Are all of the threads you start going to be deliberately controversial? I wish there was some way to subscribe to threads by certain people for the amusement value.

[+SixDogTeam]

MY FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH STEALTH CAMPING by Lead Dog.

 

In the summer of 1969, Mike and I left Sarasota under cover of darkness, unexpectedly and urgently, with nothing but our go-bags and our pistols, which is all we owned anyway. Sometime the next afternoon found us in a ditch near Old Fort, Alabama, his camaro upside down and totaled.

 

Due to some irregularities and their lack of senses of humour, the State troopers told us that if we were just passing thru Alabama, that was a good plan and we needed to make that plan work, the sooner the better. We complied.

 

Long story short we ended up spending most of the summer in the Irish Channel in NOLA. (Yes, this is the same trip that involved the El Paso Border Guards fiasco.)

 

Stealth camping was a popular passtime in those days, especially if you were a little down on your luck. The parks and sidewalks of St. Charles Street were littered with Stealth Campers every nite.

 

At dawn every morning, the coppers would come around and wake up the campers by rapping them on the bottom of their feet with nightsticks. If they got up and moved on, fine. If they didn't, they got a free ride to the drunk tank.

 

Don't ask me how I know all this.

[+GerbilMafia]

OK, I'm deliberately controversial, I use if-then rationalizations, and I am ignorant. I'm an easy target and I'm cool with that. I do enjoy a good debate and often play devils advocate. Breaking the law came up into this topic as I guessed it would. Am I ignorant to trespassing laws? Yes I am, can someone please educate me on some real fact. I looked on the internet, I combed Indiana Code, and I talked to several cops. I can't find a written law that would cover this sort of thing. What I have discovered is that when it comes to public property you are only considered to be trespassing if you violate posted hours and/or boundaries. All the police officers I talked to verified this.

 

So, I've determined that I CAN be there in the middle of night so I ask: what am I doing illegal? Does the gear I'm carrying make it illegal or the fact I may be sleeping??? Would it be better if I just did my own thing and on the log entry said something like "found it, nice hide, TFTC"? I've done that numerous times and I have felt guilty about not sharing the story. Cache owners want to hear the finders stories don't they?

 

I have read countless log entries in which people come across homeless people. They "stealth camp" everyday and no-one cares. Would it be wrong if a geocacher came across a bum and shared a fire with him for the night? I like to go out at night because you get to experience nature in a whole other way. I do not purposely break any rules and I always pack in / pack out. I'm going to continue to do what I want to do, I was just simply curious if the cache owners out there wanted to hear about some of the cool things that happen at there cache site in the middle of the night...

[Rupert2]

This thread beats the heck of of anything on television tonight

[+Torry]

OK, I'm deliberately controversial, I use if-then rationalizations, and I am ignorant. I'm an easy target and I'm cool with that. ... ...

... so feel free to ignore.

[+RPW]

I have read countless log entries in which people come across homeless people. They "stealth camp" everyday and no-one cares.

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "no-one cares" about homeless people and where they stay. I suspect that most people, if asked, would prefer to have the homeless staying in shelters than out in the woods. But it doesn't work that way and since there is generally not a good solution to the homeless problem then people just turn a blind eye.

 

Anyway, go ahead and do what you want. Sleep with the bums! Reporting it in the log might make a good story (we'll see if you can top 6-dog's tale) and I doubt if it will cause the cache to be pulled. In my experience what makes a cache disabled is when it is already illegally placed (e.g., in an Indiana state nature preserve) and people mention the illegality in their logs.

[+gunpowder]

Forget private property, I assume you know you are in the wrong there. Municipal cemetaries are generally off limits after dark whether posted or not. Most private church owned ones are too.

 

As for IDNR properties including State Nature Preserves, Parks, reservoirs, boat launches, et. al. There are state regulations prohibiing camping except for designated camping areas. A good way to tell is if you didn't see a sign noting camping sites or someone didn't collect fees from you you were illegally camping and can expect a fine if caught.

[btyak]

I've "Stealth Camped" or Gorilla camped throughout the West and northern Michigan. I rationalize it by leaving no trace and no one was ever aware except for a couple of curious cows at the crack of dawn in Colorado. I don't think it was "right", but at the time if I wanted to travel and backpack, I had little choice if there were no officilal camping places along the trail or road.

I would never make it public on the Geocaching forums that I did such a thing while geocaching (Which I don't). The sport is already fighting to keep a good public image which is necessary in order to stay in the good graces of the powers that be if we are not to be restricted to any greater extent to where a cache can be hidden.

 

btyak

[Rupert2]

Yesterday I got to see first hand how the IPD handles "stealth campers", although I think they used the term "squatters" or "vagarants". That did not look like my idea of fun.

[+501_Gang]

 

I would never make it public on the Geocaching forums that I did such a thing while geocaching (Which I don't). The sport is already fighting to keep a good public image which is necessary in order to stay in the good graces of the powers that be if we are not to be restricted to any greater extent to where a cache can be hidden.

 

btyak

 

I Agree.

 

Have your fun, but don't advertise it. It could end up hurting everyone's fun in the long run.

[+GerbilMafia]

Thanks for everyones opinions. I will take them to heart, I don't want to hurt geocaching in anyway. Stealth camping is not a new concept and those who are true outsoorsmen know about it. Bicyclists and backpackers have been doing it forever.

 

I often take for granted that many geocachers aren't really the outdoor type people they claim to be. I have pickep up garbage at countless cache sights, and I'm not talking about CITO caches, I'm talking about trash RIGHT at the cache, but that is a whole new topic.

 

I'm not very good at typing what I really want to say and this thread took off in another direction. I didn't want to get into the right / wrong debate but that's where it went and I fell into it. Much like the "nude cacher" that is often discussed here, is he right or wrong?? We all have our opinions but the fact is he's going to do whatever he wants to do, do you want his story in your logs??? At least the debate proved to be entertaining to some folks and that's cool, that's what were doing here, entertaining ourselves.

 

One final thought: setting in front of the computer and picking apart every little thing someone says and throwing it back in their face isn't what this game is about.

[Neos2]

Well, I was being light-heartedly funny about it, because I really thought that you just posted here to raise some controversy. My husbands tells me that I sounded smart aleck.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with your definition of stealth camping.

 

When I lived in Nevada, my friends and I did a lot of stealth camping. At that time, in that area, that meant we camped in places that weren't marked out camping spots in camping grounds. No nearby shower house, ranger station, no post on the corner of the lot marked #19 etc. Just camping in some part of the park lands in a responsible manner that resulted in our leaving no trace of our campsite when we left.

 

We built small fires only if we were below the no-fire line and the fire danger rating was low enough that day, and put them out correctly--using no more fuel than we needed so there wouldn't be leftover coals, no pouring water on the coals, raking them out over a huge area to mimize the impact of the chemicals the ashes produce and so forth. We didn't break branches, we didn't disturb the natural vegtation in any way other than temporarily flattening it a bit. Truthfully, once we left the camp and a few hours had passed, you should not have been able to tell we had been there at all. IN the places we were traveling, it was not illegal to camp in these locations, they just weren't marked locations. Indiana has some similar land in some of their parks. See primitive or backpack camping, an example is found here.

 

After you posted, I looked through some websites on the Internet to see what is meant by stealth camping these days, especially in Indiana. Most of the sites I found were dedicated to through-hikers and bicylists and talked about finding an appropriate spot, making sure there were no posted warnings about presspassing and following no-trace guidelines.

 

I did find a few sites that went on and on about sneaking into the area, and making sure no one saw you illegally enter the campsite and so forth. Most of these aim to avoid paying for camping. Many of them give very little information about how to live lightly on the land. Illegal tresspassing is not one of the mores that I learned from my western camping experiences, and it's not one that I would ever encourage.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Forget private property, I assume you know you are in the wrong there. Municipal cemetaries are generally off limits after dark whether posted or not. Most private church owned ones are too.

 

As for IDNR properties including State Nature Preserves, Parks, reservoirs, boat launches, et. al. There are state regulations prohibiing camping except for designated camping areas. A good way to tell is if you didn't see a sign noting camping sites or someone didn't collect fees from you you were illegally camping and can expect a fine if caught.

 

It is simpy WRONG to assume that just because a place is not specifically designated as a camping area that it is illegal to spend the night there.

 

There are MANY places that are in public land- notably state and national forests. In many, the typical rules are "no camping within X feet of a marked trail". (See Red River Gorge in KY fer instance) Other places have no rules at all and the best I can determine, no rules at all MEANS IT IS OK. America is "land of the free" last I heard- although it is getting less and less free every day. (but that is another topic)

 

If "stealth camping" means "camping where it is posted or known that camping is not allowed and camping there anyway hoping to not get caught" as seems to be the OP definition, then indeed it is morally WRONG as well as illegal.

 

Some of my most enjoyable campouts ever have been "stealth camping" although not exactly by the OP definition.

 

Back in the day, we didn't have a name for it. We were just a group of boys out to fish and hike and enjoy God's Earth. And typically we did not have a bunch of money to waste on camping fees. (What the hey, the camping fees nowadays are as much as the typical Motel 6!) Furthermore, it was our consideredopinion that camping in a tent on a clearing surrounded by two trees and an asphalt road with electricity, water and a bathhouse within spitting distance is not CAMPING at all. That would just be a "poor man's hotel". I mean, you get everything but a roof , right?

 

I have camped (technically "spent the night") on KY state park lakeshores (not "camping" by definition; "all night fishing"- only requirement per ranger was 'have a line in the water') Picnic tables make great beds.

 

I have camped in many non-designated places in KY Red River Gorge, Cumberland River, Laurel River, roadsides in Florida panhandle, Florida springs, wild caves, etc.

 

As far as reporting it in a cache log: I vote "no". Just about ANYTHING you write in a cache log seems to offend someone. Writing something in a cache log that indicates you did something which could even remotely be construed as improper is BOUND to get SOMEONE upset.

 

Best to just write "TFTC" if you log at all. Then you only offend those that equate short logs with dissing the cache.

 

If I had done something ILLEGAL, I darn sure wouldn't write about it, online or offline. That would be just dumb! If you log it online, where then is the "stealth" in your "stealth camping"?

[+gunpowder]

Forget private property, I assume you know you are in the wrong there. Municipal cemetaries are generally off limits after dark whether posted or not. Most private church owned ones are too.

 

As for IDNR properties including State Nature Preserves, Parks, reservoirs, boat launches, et. al. There are state regulations prohibiing camping except for designated camping areas. A good way to tell is if you didn't see a sign noting camping sites or someone didn't collect fees from you you were illegally camping and can expect a fine if caught.

 

It is simpy WRONG to assume that just because a place is not specifically designated as a camping area that it is illegal to spend the night there.

 

 

I am refering to the state of Indiana/DNR in my quote. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse and the DNR will gladly notify you of that. The IDNR has specific rules related to where you can camp on ALL their property. For instance, the boat ramps on various rivers have had people camping at times even though it isn't allowed by the DNR. It isn't posted but the police or CO will stop and ensure you pack your stuff up per their enforcement.

 

Related to utilizing DNR properties for astronomical observing, You can observe on DNR properties but if they catch you sleeping... out you go! They consider that camping. Tent or no tent.

 

My point is not to assume but to find out. Just because the sign, brochure, flyer, or magazine doesen't mention it doesn't mean they don't have a rule or law addressing it. Its the government, they have a rule dealing with everything.

 

RANT BEGINS (In general for educational purposes/not at previous poster or anyone in particular)***

My interpretation of this thread was the intent to go camp where ever you want in secret regardless of public or private land. Having grown up in a family with substancial agriculture land holdings along the river I have little patients for those people who think they have access to the river for fishing, camping, access to the woods for hunting-mushroom or animal, tresspassing in general. Every square inch of the US is owned by somone or a state or Federal entity. You wouldn't want me parking my car or sitting on your porch, don't do it on mine. The river water may be public property but the dirt under it to the middle and the bank is mine. That also means that island is mine too if it is on my side of the middle.

 

****RANT OVER

 

I manage a privatly owned park now. You would be surprised, or you wouldn't, how many people assume they can do "insert activity here" because it isn't in the small brochure.

 

We do have lots of things you can do but if we listed all the prohibited activities in the brochure or had signs made you would be reading a magazine or couldn't see the park because of the signs, which would create a negative atmosphere making people wonder what they "could" do.

[+Confucius' Cat]

While it is true (from the official DNR page) that IDNR prohibits camping in its properties except in designated areas, the fact is that not all public land in Indiana is IDNR property.

 

While you are probably correct that

Every square inch of the US is owned by somone or a state or Federal entity.

that does not in any way mean that camping (or anything else) is universally prohibited.

 

As to your rant regarding the river land, You might want to look at this page.

 

Seems to me this, which purports to refer to supreme court rulings, would specifically ALLOW camping on navigable river bank land- regardless of who "owns" it. (Please note the definition of "navigable" on the same page)

 

I am sorry that you are experiencing so many thieves in your business. (Yes, I said thieves- if you are in the camping business and someone camps on your land without paying, they are not just trespassers, they are thieves and you have every right to be angry- and to prosecute them.)

 

But claiming ownership of land that is, BY LAW, PUBLIC is kind of disingenuous.

 

Just because the sign, brochure, flyer, or magazine doesen't mention it doesn't mean they don't have a rule or law addressing it. Its the government, they have a rule dealing with everything.

 

Nor does it mean that they DO have a rule addressing it.

 

And just because a cop "runs someone off" doesn't mean what they were doing is against the law.

 

And just because you have a deed for land doesn't mean you own ALL rights to the land.

 

Just because the sign, brochure, flyer, or magazine doesen't mention it doesn't mean they don't have a rule or law addressing it.

 

Isn't this the "essence" of geocaching as it is mostly practiced today? I mean, you know, that "P" word?

 

And just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true. (there, I played devil's advocate against my own argument, too)

[+Red Dragon 109]

Wow. Kinda reminds me of the cemetary thing. I support GM of course being that he is my brother of another mother. All I know is that for Indiana Tresspass laws to apply it has to be posted and or communicated in someway that you are not allowed to be in a place either "ever" or "during specific times". What GM does is simply find a place to lay his head so that he may pick up where he left off in his adventure. He is not attempting to avoid camping fees per se. Come stay the night at the Okie if you want to get a gist of what he means. Write about your adventure as I am sure he would love to hear it. Your time is now.........live your life and leave nothing undone. Peace and chicken grease...........

[P3nGu1N]

I've only done stealth camping while crossing the mexican border... and that was by necessity. Stakes were high since Texas has a law that anyone you catch on your land after 9 pm you can shoot and ask questions later. I don't recommend doing it to anyone, but if you are going to stealth camp here are a few tips - don't light a fire until morning so if the smoke of extinguishing the fire attracts the landowners you're already treking on your way, try to pitch your tent in a densely wooded area away from any roads, and if possible cover your tent with a little bit of foliage before taking your rest, don't pitch your tent too close to streams/rivers as they might be frequented by DNR looking for illegal fishermen. Bring more food than you think you might need incase you have to hold up in a place longer than expected if you hear people near the area when you wake up, along with extra water (or something with electrolytes preferably). That is all.

[+double-z]

 

.......

 

RANT BEGINS (In general for educational purposes/not at previous poster or anyone in particular)***

My interpretation of this thread was the intent to go camp where ever you want in secret regardless of public or private land. Having grown up in a family with substancial agriculture land holdings along the river I have little patients for those people who think they have access to the river for fishing, camping, access to the woods for hunting-mushroom or animal, tresspassing in general. Every square inch of the US is owned by somone or a state or Federal entity. You wouldn't want me parking my car or sitting on your porch, don't do it on mine. The river water may be public property but the dirt under it to the middle and the bank is mine. That also means that island is mine too if it is on my side of the middle.

 

****RANT OVER

 

I manage a privatly owned park now. You would be surprised, or you wouldn't, how many people assume they can do "insert activity here" because it isn't in the small brochure.

 

We do have lots of things you can do but if we listed all the prohibited activities in the brochure or had signs made you would be reading a magazine or couldn't see the park because of the signs, which would create a negative atmosphere making people wonder what they "could" do.

 

So much for Hoosier Hospitality, I won't be staying in any parks in Tippecanoe County anytime soon .... Knowing my luck I would break some obscure or unspoken law and get tossed out on my arse.

[+Mercy165]

I didn't say break the law, I said camp where you normally wouldn't and that permission probably wouldn't be granted. It is not illegal to be in these area's at night as long as it's not posted. If it is posted then stay out.

No sharp objects here, but let's review what the LAW says...

A land owner, public or private, owns the rights to said land and the rights to grant anyone access and/or use of that land. The law is specifically written in this way so that anyone who wishes to use the land must be allowed onto the land. The fact that land does not have signs "posting" it has no meaning. You must, according to the law, be allowed onto the land, i.e. have permission. If you enter any area without permission, you are setting yourself up for a spot of trouble.

The way this works after a transgression, generally, is that the landowner is approached and asked if they wish to press tresspassing charges, they have that choice. Some may say no, but you can take that chance if you wish. Posting land is a way of advising law enforcement officials that any and all tresspassers should be prosecuted unless they have written permission (charges will normally be issued on the spot in this case, much like a traffic ticket).

Speaking as a landowner and a 'cacher, we all need to have permission from whomever controls the land we use, and to make surethey know others will follow. I must agree with others, however, that you choose what you want, that is what makes this country great. Another peice of this though, is that you should be willing to pay the consequences if caught and prosecuted. This website, however, should not be used to encourage the use of others' land without their permission...

...off the soap box now...

[+Bad_CRC]

Having grown up in a family with substancial agriculture land holdings along the river I have little patients for those people who think they have access to the river ... The river water may be public property but the dirt under it to the middle and the bank is mine. That also means that island is mine too if it is on my side of the middle.

 

****RANT OVER

 

That is simply not true. at least not around here. You should check the laws more carefully.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Bad_CRC

[+thabigbird]

I look at everyone's opinion and that's all it is, and thats whats wrong with the modern day world. The great indians did this stuff (stealth camp) all the time. If its not your property why should you people care. If the property is not being destroyed why should you people care. My opinion is which it dont matter is that go ahead the homeless, semi drivers (people pulled along the side of the road) etc, and nothing is said. We americans take everything to seriously and worry about stuff that is not our concern. Let the government do that they manage to do it anyway. The voice of the people is gone and so am I.

 

Good luck GerbilMafia and zook on the rest of them that dont like it

[+SixDogTeam]

The reason that people care about this topic is that it goes to the very core of what civilization is all about, and our nation is engaged today in a struggle that if lost will plunge the world into a dark ages the like of which we've never seen.

 

Early man got together with his neighbors and formed bands, tribes, alliances, nations for several reasons: Mutual security, and help in surviving in a hostile environment.

 

Cavemen banded together, so there could be a division of labor which would bring greater benefit to each individual: It took a crowd of guys to bring down a big beast, the fruits of which they would share. An older woman took care of the kids, some men hunted, some fished, some broke rocks, some manufacatured weapons, some cooked, some maintained shelters, some tended gardens, some taught algebra, etc. etc.

 

As associations became larger and more complex, it became apparent that in order for peaceful coexistence to reign, there must be rules, enforced by the leaders of the group, based on MUTAL RESPECT FOR THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS: Leave the other guy's women alone, don't steal his stuff, don't hit him up the side of the head. Many of these types of basic rights are embodied in the Ten Commandments.

 

Trespass laws are among the earliest of these anti-theft common laws developed by civilized man and are based on the principle of property rights: This is mine and you can't have it/use it unless I say so.

 

So simple a cave man can do it!

 

Now the other side of this historical equasion is Might Makes Right. The toughest guy on the block with the biggest gang and sharpest knives gets to do whatever he wants.

 

On a more global scale, most of the wars ever fought in the history of the planet have been over real estate:

One nation or empire trying to take over the other's territory. But that's not the March of Civilization, that's the March of Tyranny.

 

So really, trespass law is really an important concept that should not be taken lightly, in our opinion, as it goes right smack dab to the core of weather we want our global community to be one that honors Individual Rights or bows to the Rule of the Thug. As an individual you can either obey the law or be an outlaw. And in a free society you have that choice. But if you choose wrong, you may find your freedom to make a bad choice again somewhat restricted by your neighbors.

[Earthdog Patrick]

See if I've got this right:

 

If we stealth camp, the world will be thrown into an apocolyptic dark ages for a thousand years ?

[+SixDogTeam]

yep.

[+GerbilMafia]

I have a bad habit of simplifying things too much and for that I apologize but I would like to make one simple point. If a geocache is there, then I can be there.....right? Permission has already been granted, that is if we as the cache hiders are following the rules. If "the rules" say I can't be there at night then I simply don't go at night. Is there a rule is place that I am unaware of that says you have to complete a cache is a certain amount of time or can I take as much time as I want to fully enjoy the area? Or how about a rule that prohibits me from carrying certain gear with me? Or better yet, a rule that says I must keep moving at all times. Is resting enroot to a cache site against the rules?

[+Lord Elwood]

There is a rule about taking too much time, it's called loitering.

[+thabigbird]

The reason that people care about this topic is that it goes to the very core of what civilization is all about, and our nation is engaged today in a struggle that if lost will plunge the world into a dark ages the like of which we've never seen.

 

Early man got together with his neighbors and formed bands, tribes, alliances, nations for several reasons: Mutual security, and help in surviving in a hostile environment.

 

Cavemen banded together, so there could be a division of labor which would bring greater benefit to each individual: It took a crowd of guys to bring down a big beast, the fruits of which they would share. An older woman took care of the kids, some men hunted, some fished, some broke rocks, some manufacatured weapons, some cooked, some maintained shelters, some tended gardens, some taught algebra, etc. etc.

 

As associations became larger and more complex, it became apparent that in order for peaceful coexistence to reign, there must be rules, enforced by the leaders of the group, based on MUTAL RESPECT FOR THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS: Leave the other guy's women alone, don't steal his stuff, don't hit him up the side of the head. Many of these types of basic rights are embodied in the Ten Commandments.

 

Trespass laws are among the earliest of these anti-theft common laws developed by civilized man and are based on the principle of property rights: This is mine and you can't have it/use it unless I say so.

 

So simple a cave man can do it!

 

Now the other side of this historical equasion is Might Makes Right. The toughest guy on the block with the biggest gang and sharpest knives gets to do whatever he wants.

 

On a more global scale, most of the wars ever fought in the history of the planet have been over real estate:

One nation or empire trying to take over the other's territory. But that's not the March of Civilization, that's the March of Tyranny.

 

So really, trespass law is really an important concept that should not be taken lightly, in our opinion, as it goes right smack dab to the core of weather we want our global community to be one that honors Individual Rights or bows to the Rule of the Thug. As an individual you can either obey the law or be an outlaw. And in a free society you have that choice. But if you choose wrong, you may find your freedom to make a bad choice again somewhat restricted by your neighbors.

 

 

So simple a cave man can do it!

 

 

That's funny Lead

[+RPW]

I have a bad habit of simplifying things too much and for that I apologize but I would like to make one simple point. If a geocache is there, then I can be there.....right? Permission has already been granted, that is if we as the cache hiders are following the rules.

 

IMHO, the above is the funny part of the last couple posts in this thread and not (sorry LeadDog & EDP) the "cave man" saying.

 

I am willing to bet that 75% of the caches do not have explictly granted permission. As we all know geocaching.com does not actually check for permission (except in some areas such as Indiana state parks) and thus every time we look for a cache we have to ask ourselves "should we be here?" I've passed up several caches simply because they didn't seem to be on public property.

 

Anyway, the last several posts (including mine) don't really pertain to the idea of "stealth camping" however I suppose since the topic is so old then we can hijack it.

[+Renegade Knight]

Forget private property, I assume you know you are in the wrong there. Municipal cemetaries are generally off limits after dark whether posted or not. Most private church owned ones are too.

 

As for IDNR properties including State Nature Preserves, Parks, reservoirs, boat launches, et. al. There are state regulations prohibiing camping except for designated camping areas. A good way to tell is if you didn't see a sign noting camping sites or someone didn't collect fees from you you were illegally camping and can expect a fine if caught.

 

By the book it's probably against the law to be homeless.

[+Renegade Knight]

I have a bad habit of simplifying things too much and for that I apologize but I would like to make one simple point. If a geocache is there, then I can be there.....right? Permission has already been granted, that is if we as the cache hiders are following the rules. If "the rules" say I can't be there at night then I simply don't go at night. Is there a rule is place that I am unaware of that says you have to complete a cache is a certain amount of time or can I take as much time as I want to fully enjoy the area? Or how about a rule that prohibits me from carrying certain gear with me? Or better yet, a rule that says I must keep moving at all times. Is resting enroot to a cache site against the rules?

 

If a geocache is there you can probably be there. No you can't take all the time you want any more than you can come over for dinner and spend the rest of your life in my house because you have saved some of that dinner to enjoy on your death bed.

 

Life is bigger than geocaching. It has it's own rules that apply with or without geocaching.

[+GerbilMafia]

No you can't take all the time you want any more than you can come over for dinner and spend the rest of your life in my house because you have saved some of that dinner to enjoy on your death bed.

 

Am I invited for dinner???? Shoot me some coords. I won't save any for my death bed, I promise.

 

Life is bigger than geocaching. It has it's own rules that apply with or without geocaching.

 

Amen