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Cache owners not playing by the rules


Team Smokey
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Why is it rude if it is my cache page and I don't want to discourage others from coming to the cache or the log is incorrect such as the cache that was replaced by another?

 

Well, for one, because just deleting the log DOES discourage cachers from coming to your cache. They'll see the "needs maintanence" attribute set on your cache, but since you deleted the log, they don't know what it needs. So, instead of being able to read it just needs a new logsheet, and taking one with them, they have no idea and can't help.

 

Second, if the cache doesn't need anything, instead of deleting the log, why not just post a "owner maintanence" log, explaining that the cache is fine, which also resets the attribute?

 

Third, deleting logs is just rude, unless there's a very good reason for doing so. Like fake finds (although some who have posted in this thread would probably disagree with that), or major spoilers that the logger won't remove, or someone cursing you out in their log.......

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Why is it rude if it is my cache page and I don't want to discourage others from coming to the cache or the log is incorrect such as the cache that was replaced by another?

 

Well, for one, because just deleting the log DOES discourage cachers from coming to your cache. They'll see the "needs maintanence" attribute set on your cache, but since you deleted the log, they don't know what it needs. So, instead of being able to read it just needs a new logsheet, and taking one with them, they have no idea and can't help.

 

Second, if the cache doesn't need anything, instead of deleting the log, why not just post a "owner maintanence" log, explaining that the cache is fine, which also resets the attribute?

 

Third, deleting logs is just rude, unless there's a very good reason for doing so. Like fake finds (although some who have posted in this thread would probably disagree with that), or major spoilers that the logger won't remove, or someone cursing you out in their log.......

 

Nicely put. :laughing:

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she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full.

Am I reading this right? Did CCC leave the old cache behind when she replaced it?

 

After going back an reading the logs, yes she did, with an acceptable (to me) reason for doing it.

August 17 by CCCooperAgency (16371 found)

You must have signed the OLD cache which several of us could NOT remove where it was jammed in! The new cache was ONLY JUST put out!!!! INITIALS ONLY!!!

Several other logs made reference to the old cache being jammed in it's hiding place so tightly they could not remove it either.

 

Ok, so did Team Smoky use his superhuman strength to remove the cache and find the full logsheet?

 

Actually it doesn't matter if he did or not. The fact is that she deleted legitimate logs because she didn't like the way it makes her cache look and sound. Those logs are part of the cache's history and should have stayed. She could have posted right above them with any explanation that she wanted and not have to worry that future cachers would be discouraged.

 

Team Smoky, i'll just go ahead and say it here. I'm sure that CCCA is a fine person but she certainly doesn't cache like the majority of us do. There have been plenty of threads regarding this and i wouldn't doubt that each has the same few people defending her actions. I'd leave this one alone as she does have the right to do what she did, even if it was petty!

Edited by Mudfrog
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So from all this, I can determine that when I start placing caches, and I get a ''needs maintenance" on one of them, it is OK to delete the log, BUT I NEED TO HAVE THE COURTESY TO EMAIL THE POSTER AND LET THEM KNOW "THANK YOU, I'LL GET IT DONE."

 

And yes, I will be ordering a few logs, and keep at least a micro log available to rubber band to a full one when I find it.

 

:laughing: Thanks folks, for helping me see what I can do to be a better participant in this sport.

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she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full.

Am I reading this right? Did CCC leave the old cache behind when she replaced it?

 

After going back an reading the logs, yes she did, with an acceptable (to me) reason for doing it.

August 17 by CCCooperAgency (16371 found)

You must have signed the OLD cache which several of us could NOT remove where it was jammed in! The new cache was ONLY JUST put out!!!! INITIALS ONLY!!!

Several other logs made reference to the old cache being jammed in it's hiding place so tightly they could not remove it either.

 

Ok, so did Team Smoky use his superhuman strength to remove the cache and find the full logsheet?

 

Actually it doesn't matter if he did or not. The fact is that she deleted legitimate logs because she didn't like the way it makes her cache look and sound. Those logs are part of the cache's history and should have stayed. She could have posted right above them with any explanation that she wanted and not have to worry that future cachers would be discouraged.

 

Team Smoky, i'll just go ahead and say it here. I'm sure that CCCA is a fine person but she certainly doesn't cache like the majority of us do. There have been plenty of threads regarding this and i wouldn't doubt that each has the same few people defending her actions. I'd leave this one alone as she does have the right to do what she did, even if it was petty!

 

Thanks Mudfrog. I agree, she probably is a fine person and despite saying this before, I will say it again, I mean no disrespect to her. It's no big deal to me to skip any of her caches next time. There are plenty of others hidden in the area and quite frankly, there was nothing that exciting about any of hers that I found that I really enjoyed anyway. I mean, yes, I like the hunt, and not having mosquitos nagging me is quite a plus, but going to a gas station because it is .1 mile from the last cache is not that great of a thrill for me. There were some nicely hidden urban caches in the area that we DID find fun because they were cleverly hidden. Rattlesnake Bites comes to mind.

I also agree with many of you, I think it was rude. Your fellow cachers are trying to help you out by letting you know that your cache is in need of something and you do delete the logs. Yes, that's rude IMO.

 

It just seemed to me that she was trying to beat the system by deleting the "needs maintenence" logs. I was wondering if there was anything that could be done about it. I know that around my home town the local reviewers are really on the ball and have tried to get the cache owners to maintain their caches, and I have seen quite a few caches get archived because of it. I think that this is great - not because the caches were bad, not because I don't think highly of the hider, but because when I go look for a cache, there is an expectation that the cache has been maintained. If it is not being maintained, let someone else adopt it or place their own in that location. I really feel bad for recumbrick who I imagine was not able to sign the log. I used up the last iota of space. I don't think that it is nice to let this continue and was hoping something else could be done.

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Trucker Lee:

 

I am concerned that you weren't reading this thread closely. :laughing: Apparently some people are very sensitive over their logs and it is rude to delete cache maintenance logs. If the attribute is removed and the cache is fixed I see no reason to clutter the cache page or pq.

 

You didn't even give your reviewer a chance to review the situation before you came to the forums.

 

Actually I have done several of CCCooper's caches that are a hike of at least a half mile to a mile and are a lot of fun. Don't let one cache or less than 4 days notice determine someone's ability to maintain a cache.

Edited by LadeBear68
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Trucker Lee:

 

I am concerned that you weren't reading this thread closely. :laughing: Apparently some people are very sensitive over their logs and it is rude to delete cache maintenance logs. If the attribute is removed and the cache is fixed I see no reason to clutter the cache page or pq.

 

I agree, if the problem is fixed, by all means go ahead - delete the log. Point is - the problem has not been fixed at least for this one.

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she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full.

Am I reading this right? Did CCC leave the old cache behind when she replaced it?

 

After going back an reading the logs, yes she did, with an acceptable (to me) reason for doing it.

August 17 by CCCooperAgency (16371 found)

You must have signed the OLD cache which several of us could NOT remove where it was jammed in! The new cache was ONLY JUST put out!!!! INITIALS ONLY!!!

Several other logs made reference to the old cache being jammed in it's hiding place so tightly they could not remove it either.

 

Ok, so did Team Smoky use his superhuman strength to remove the cache and find the full logsheet?

 

Actually it doesn't matter if he did or not. The fact is that she deleted legitimate logs because she didn't like the way it makes her cache look and sound. Those logs are part of the cache's history and should have stayed. She could have posted right above them with any explanation that she wanted and not have to worry that future cachers would be discouraged.

 

Team Smoky, i'll just go ahead and say it here. I'm sure that CCCA is a fine person but she certainly doesn't cache like the majority of us do. There have been plenty of threads regarding this and i wouldn't doubt that each has the same few people defending her actions. I'd leave this one alone as she does have the right to do what she did, even if it was petty!

Mudfrog, she didn't delete his found logs (did he actually sign that old cache log that all the other people DNFed because they couldn't retrieve the cache? Guess that's a different thread, huh?). She deleted his second needs maintenance logs. Since he mentions the maint issues in his found log, I would think the second, deleted log is redundant, possibly even a dupe of his found it log. I just don't see it as a big deal left or deleted. The issue is on the webpage, the attribute is set, the cache owner is aware of the problem, the cache finder retained his smiley and his log.

Talk about mountains out of ant hills.

If the hider was some nobody with 50 finds and 5 hides would anyone still care?

REALLY care?

Edited by Mopar
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If the hider was some nobody with 50 finds and 5 hides would anyone still care? REALLY care?

 

Ooooh! Take that, you low-numbers nobodies.

 

No, if that were the case, the thread would probably have gone on for five or six messages and died a gentle and natural death. It's the inevitable staunch defenders weighing in that turn these threads into multi-page grudge matches.

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Hi Folks i am very new to this but just picked up on this discussion thread and do unfortunately think it is very rude to delete logs i think that any log is important to the cache owner and the geocachers who visit it as its all information that could be relevant, useful and possibly crucial to the life of a cache and its popularity.

 

I think thats all i want to say without any punctuation.

Edited by Marty_Bell
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Trucker Lee:

 

I am concerned that you weren't reading this thread closely. :laughing: Apparently some people are very sensitive over their logs and it is rude to delete cache maintenance logs. If the attribute is removed and the cache is fixed I see no reason to clutter the cache page or pq.

 

You didn't even give your reviewer a chance to review the situation before you came to the forums.

 

Actually I have done several of CCCooper's caches that are a hike of at least a half mile to a mile and are a lot of fun. Don't let one cache or less than 4 days notice determine someone's ability to maintain a cache.

 

That wasn't me started the thread, I just stated what I could gather from the thread after reading through it. I agree that it would be rude to arbitrarily delete logs, and agree that there is no reason to clutter the page if the cache is fixed. Thus, the observation that I would prefer to email the poster and let them know that I have or will check the cache, deleted the log, and I thank them for bringing this to my attention. That seems like a do-able courtesy.

 

I don't think CCC would be wrong in deleting the post, but only if the cache has been checked by herself or someone at her request. I believe the thread was started because the posts were deleted and no explanation or thanks offered. There are several caches near me that I could check for the owner if needed, I have already found them and I do live quite a bit closer. We all need to remember that caches, like anything else, will occasionally need a little TLC.

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Mudfrog, she didn't delete his found logs

 

I knew that of course. The "needs maintenance" log type is there for a reason and though it may have been a bit redundant in this case, i still see no reason to delete it.

 

If the hider was some nobody with 50 finds and 5 hides would anyone still care?

REALLY care?

 

Ooooh! Take that, you low-numbers nobodies.

 

No, if that were the case, the thread would probably have gone on for five or six messages and died a gentle and natural death. It's the inevitable staunch defenders weighing in that turn these threads into multi-page grudge matches.

 

I understand what Mopar was saying here and he is right about that. If it had been a thread about me deleting a maintenance log then it would have made it's way down the page very hurridly. She on the other hand, has high numbers which have been in question a number of times. And yep, it's usually the defenders of the small "play how you want, ignore the simple guidelines, it doesn't concern anyone else" group that keep these threads lively and going strong! :laughing:

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  • 1) That isn't a bad idea. You will find that almost every one of the 457 threads about what to carry while geocaching mentions it. I would and have gladly added a new log sheet or book to a cache that needed it.
     
  • 2)She's already probably the most criticized cacher in the world. If it was any other person's cache this thread woulda died after 3 posts.

Funny. One month the Texans say I'm the strict by the book geopuritan and the next they say I'm Mr ignore the guidelines, anything goes. :laughing:

Edited by Mopar
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  • 2)She's already probably the most criticized cacher in the world. If it was any other person's cache this thread woulda died after 3 posts.

 

Amen.

 

brothers/sister! :laughing:

 

sheesh, now we are down to agnst over paper. I think you folks need to get out more.

 

and if the log was full, how did you sign the log

 

 

 

oh, wait - wrong thread. :lol:

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I make a statement that I would delete the log and now I am a person who ignores simple guidelines and part of some special group. Wow, didn't know simply stating my opinion would let me join such a group.

 

Try again Mudfrog.

 

Hmm... I thought Alabama Rambler already chastised someone for 'rude behaviour' like this! Tsk tsk.

And, you have nothing to worry about. You have already created an exemption for yourself: Deleting any logs that clutter your page. It's written it down; the exemption now exists.

Maintenance of the cache page is, of course, the responsibility of the owner. But many, or most, here will argue that all records are part of the history of the cache, and should be maintained. You, of course, have a written exemption.

Don Quixote tilted at windmills. Good luck, OP.

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So the moral of this thread is twofold:

 

1) Carry around an extra logbook to replace any full ones you may come across.

 

2) Never criticize CCCooperAgency.

 

Actually, those are both excellent practices, the second is even a forum guideline, I believe, protecting ANY geocacher from personal attack in these forums.

 

The moderators appear to pick and choose when they'll enforce that one, however.

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Boy, I had a good time at my folks house today.

I always feel the angst topics from 120 miles away though. I sort of had that feeling on the way home...

 

I'll go back to the original post and give you the answer to your original question from the reviewer perspective. I'll have to take the comments/questions one at a time.

The question is, what can be done about cachers who are not playing by the rules and not maintaining their caches?
Your first option is to post a "Needs Maintenance" log, just as you did. If the issue concerns you so much, you can go back to the cache and see if the maintenance was done. These logs are not sent to the reviewers, so they will not know the issue is there at this point. It is not their job to be involved at this point either. Your next course of action is to post a "Should Be Archived" (SBA) log if you feel it is needed. These notes are sent to the reviewer. At this point, the reviewer will get involved and will determine a course of action from there. If after an appropriate amount of time after your SBA note (usually around a month or so), your next course of action is to write the contact address. At that point, it becomes a Groundspeak issue.

 

I don't think we need a vice squad or anything like that, but perhaps not being able to delete a "needs maintenence" log would help in this situation.
Groundspeak is not the log police. The cache owner has every right to delete your log if they wish. It is their cache. You can be upset if you want, but it is their cache and they can do what they want with your logs, be it a maintenance log or a found it log. If she wanted, she could delete that too. Groundspeak will not get involved in this type of problem, unless there are threats or profanity. Threats will be dealt with by Groundspeak. Profanity can be edited out by reviewers and Groundspeak, but the log most likely will not be deleted.

 

Your other course of action is not no longer look for this user's caches.

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So the moral of this thread is twofold:

 

1) Carry around an extra logbook to replace any full ones you may come across.

 

2) Never criticize CCCooperAgency.

 

Actually, those are both excellent practices, the second is even a forum guideline, I believe, protecting ANY geocacher from personal attack in these forums.

 

The moderators appear to pick and choose when they'll enforce that one, however.

If you feel the moderators have not acted within the guidelines posted at the top of the forums, then please follow what those guidelines say.

Complaints: If you have an issue with a specific post/topic on this board, please use the ‘report a post’ link in the lower right hand corner of the post. We will review the post and edit/delete if necessary. Any comments on the personnel of Groundspeak or one of the volunteers, please send an e-mail message to contact@Groundspeak.com.

 

In the meantime, I will remind you of these parts of the guidelines as well.

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

About our Moderators: Forum Moderators are community volunteers that give up their time to help build a better community. They will assist with focusing topics and enforcing guidelines. They have the ability to edit/delete posts, to move, close or delete topics, and to temporarily moderate users’ posts. Our moderators are equipped with Kevlar flak jackets and an unlimited supply of admin bricks. Do not attempt to engage them in direct combat.

 

I take your comments as a personal insult and would appreciate an apology. If you have specific proof where such practices have taken place, PLEASE email them to the contact address. The broad brush slandering of the volunteers is *not* appreciated though.

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So the moral of this thread is twofold:

 

1) Carry around an extra logbook to replace any full ones you may come across.

 

2) Never criticize CCCooperAgency.

 

Actually, those are both excellent practices, the second is even a forum guideline, I believe, protecting ANY geocacher from personal attack in these forums.

 

The moderators appear to pick and choose when they'll enforce that one, however.

If you feel the moderators have not acted within the guidelines posted at the top of the forums, then please follow what those guidelines say.

Complaints: If you have an issue with a specific post/topic on this board, please use the ‘report a post’ link in the lower right hand corner of the post. We will review the post and edit/delete if necessary. Any comments on the personnel of Groundspeak or one of the volunteers, please send an e-mail message to contact@Groundspeak.com.

 

In the meantime, I will remind you of these parts of the guidelines as well.

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

About our Moderators: Forum Moderators are community volunteers that give up their time to help build a better community. They will assist with focusing topics and enforcing guidelines. They have the ability to edit/delete posts, to move, close or delete topics, and to temporarily moderate users’ posts. Our moderators are equipped with Kevlar flak jackets and an unlimited supply of admin bricks. Do not attempt to engage them in direct combat.

 

I take your comments as a personal insult and would appreciate an apology. If you have specific proof where such practices have taken place, PLEASE email them to the contact address. The broad brush slandering of the volunteers is *not* appreciated though.

 

76 posts to this thread so far, many quite derisive and critical of a specific geocacher, and many directly critical of anyone who dares speak up for her.

 

I comment that the mods appear to pick when they enforce the very guidelines you quote, and I'm the bad guy?? :laughing:

 

I'm not sure I understand how that happens.

 

If I offended you or any other person, volunteer or otherwise, I apologize.

 

Ed

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This topic has remained pretty much civil to me. Your job as a reader is to report post if you find them offensive and/or if you find that they break the forum guidelines. Forum moderators will then deal with them as needed and/or as warranted. Forum moderators very rarely give indications of their moderation actions with regards to these reported posts within the forums.

 

You painted all moderators as people who practice favoritism. I am offended by that because I DO NOT. If I do, write Groundspeak. If others do, write Groundspeak.

 

Frankly, your defamatory comments about the moderators were off topic. Please get back to the topic at hand, as you have asked others to do yourself.

 

Thank you.

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Not trying to boil the pot any more than necessary. But if you look back at the logs on one of the caches mentioned the first "full log" was mentioned in May. There has been a couple of notes by the owner, but nothing saying anything about replacement of the log sheet. This is exactly what the "Needs Maintenance" log is for. I think it should not be able to be deleted without using the "Owner Maintenace" log being completed.

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Not trying to boil the pot any more than necessary. But if you look back at the logs on one of the caches mentioned the first "full log" was mentioned in May. There has been a couple of notes by the owner, but nothing saying anything about replacement of the log sheet. This is exactly what the "Needs Maintenance" log is for. I think it should not be able to be deleted without using the "Owner Maintenace" log being completed.

Again, the cache belongs to the owner. The owner can delete the logs if they want.

 

The cache page is listed on the geocaching.com site though, so the "Needs Maintenance" attribute cannot be removed unless the owner logs the "Owner Maintenance" log.

 

It is semantics maybe, but the fact that the maintenance needs to be done is still there.

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TheAlabamaRambler "........the second is even a forum guideline, I believe, protecting ANY geocacher from personal attack in these forums."
How do you explain your not following the guideline you just mentioned by referring to the OP as an "ankle-biter"? :laughing:

 

Also, The last time I looked moderators were geocachers too. I believe they have answered your demeaning comments about them quite well.

 

I agree that the OP's log is part of the cache record or history and should stand. Removing it seems petty. If perhaps his wording in post #1 wasn't quite right, his intent seemed to be to get an answer to why CCCA took this action.

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As pointed out, the needs maintenance attribute remains and no log is ever really deleted. You just cant see it anymore. If someone wants to delete the log its no big deal. Lets not spend too much time being our brothers keeper.

Edited by CO Admin
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Wow, what a response. I was really just looking for direction. Thanks mtn-man for clearing it up. I guess I wrongly assumed that the local reviewers use the "needs maintenance" logs. I just expected that the local reviewers would not allow caches to continue when they have not been maintained properly as per Groundspeak's guidelines. This seems to be true, but needs to be done via the SBA log. So I guess if a cache owner doesn't maintain the cache, it can continue to exist, no matter how horribly maintained, until someone submits the SBA log. Thanks for the clarification.

 

At least this kept a few of us occupied today. :shocked:

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Sorry, mods, once again a question is OT, shoulda been asked in private, but wasn't, and you let it go, so I guess it can be answered here as well.

 

I often wonder why this CCCooperAgency gal is so beyond reproach that even her local reviewers defend her deplorable behavior :shocked:

 

See my post above yours, but beyond that she epitomizes, to me, everything good about this game.

 

She is certainly not perfect, not above reproach, and not everyone agrees with her or her style of geocaching.

 

She IS smart enough not to give much attention to ankle-biters, yet is receptive to the feelings, ideas and mores of the caching community as a whole.

 

She's a popular geocacher for a reason. I don't doubt her cache logs are full!

 

Ed

 

In response rjb43nh wrote:

How do you explain your not following the guideline you just mentioned by referring to the OP as an "ankle-biter"?

 

Read my post, please. Read it closely. I put a lot of care and attention into my word choices, to ensure they say exactly what I mean.

 

Nowhere does it call the OP, or anyone else, anything. Your inferences and twists of logic are your own.

 

Ed

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I did state my opinions and certainly some facts as well but this thread wasn't asking for them. I wish to apologize for getting off topic with those.

 

As far as the OP's concerns go, i still don't think the logs should have been deleted. It doesn't matter if the cache had the maintenance done on it or not. Personally, i don't see why a "needs maintenance" log should bother anyone since every regular cache placed is going to need maintenance sooner or later!

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76 posts to this thread so far, many quite derisive and critical of a specific geocacher, and many directly critical of anyone who dares speak up for her.

 

I comment that the mods appear to pick when they enforce the very guidelines you quote, and I'm the bad guy??

 

With a few exceptions, most of the posts here are critical of the practice, not the person. What gets me are all the people who see the critisim of the practice and jump to the defense of the trangressor. Why is it that they are so eager to defend bad behavior simply because it comes from a caching buddy?

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Briansnat-"With a few exceptions, most of the posts here are critical of the practice, not the person. What gets me are all the people who see the critisim of the practice and jump to the defense of the trangressor. Why is it that they are so eager to defend bad behavior simply because it comes from a caching buddy?"
Very perceptive post and dead on. I would also point out that they not only jump to the defense of the transgresser but they try to vilify the OP for pointing out this behavior.
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What gets me are all the people who see the critisim of the practice and jump to the defense of the trangressor. Why is it that they are so eager to defend bad behavior simply because it comes from a caching buddy?

 

mtn-man characterizes the deleting of logs on her cache page as her right and you call it bad behavior. Which is it?

 

There are almost always two sides to these things, and having only heard one side I'm still reserving judgement. On the surface it seems straightforward enough, Team Smokey pointed out that the logs are full and his notes got deleted. Whether that's OK or not is the question above. But then Team Smokey goes on to say:

 

It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad.

 

That's a pretty strong statement over something as simple as a full log. It makes me wonder, (not accuse, mind you, but wonder), if there was an agenda to this whole tempest in a teapot.

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A few points could be made after reading thru this whole thread, IMO:

- Don't delete NM logs, it just ticks people off and there is no good reason to do it

- Pick on CCC and her posse gots her back, Yo!

- Honestly, who really cares that the logs were deleted. At best it's just a bit rude.

 

And...

e411a74b-53d7-4d3b-a7e8-18655cf56731.jpg

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