Cache owners not playing by the rules

August 20, 2006

According to the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines on the web site, a cache owner is responsible "for the placement and care of your cache". We were in Lancaster, PA last week and did a dozen or so caches there. I came across two different caches both placed by the same cacher (CCCooperAgency) who seems does not want to spend the time maintaining his caches. I posted a found log in both caches (GCQYNN and GCM4FE) and then I posted a "needs maintenence" log for both of them because the logs for both of them were full. I shortly received notice that my "needs maintenence" logs were deleted by CCCooperAgency. I can only conclude that they don't want Groundspeak to see that their cache is in need of maintenence. Otherwise, WHY DELETE THEM? Myabe they don't understand their commitment to the game.

I e-mailed my local reviewer explaining the situation (not expecting him to be able to resolve the situation, but hoping he would pass along the e-mail to whomever it needed to go to). I have not gotten a response from him or anyone else about it.

The question is, what can be done about cachers who are not playing by the rules and not maintaining their caches? I don't think we need a vice squad or anything like that, but perhaps not being able to delete a "needs maintenence" log would help in this situation. It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad. I hope there is someway to nip this in the bud.

22k · August 20, 2006

2.5k · August 20, 2006

the same cacher (CCCooperAgency) who seems does not want to spend the time maintaining his caches.

Try her caches.

:laughing:

6.7k · August 20, 2006

It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad. I hope there is someway to nip this in the bud.

Um, SHE is one of our most respected geocachers, and her hides, along with her 15,000+ finds logged, may qualify her as the most experienced and highest finder in the world.

I know her personally to be honest and reputable, and have to ask if there is not more to this than was explained.

Lastly, replacing a full log, just dropping a new one in the cache, is standard operating procedure and one small way you can actually be of benefit to your caching community. :laughing:

Ed

Edited August 20, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

5.2k · August 20, 2006

I often wonder why this CCCooperAgency gal is so beyond reproach that even her local reviewers defend her deplorable behavior :laughing:

August 20, 2006

the same cacher (CCCooperAgency) who seems does not want to spend the time maintaining his caches.

Try her caches.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, I always use the "generally" accepted anonymous "he", which is forgivable because, contrary to what radical feminists believe, the people who use it are using it because it's common convention, not because of a vast conspiracy to undermine women. However, when I find out that the anonymous person is of a particular gender, I use the correct pronoun if I know it.

August 20, 2006

It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad. I hope there is someway to nip this in the bud.

Um, SHE is one of our most respected geocachers, and her hides, along with her 15,000+ finds logged, may qualify her as the most experienced and highest finder in the world.

I know her personally to be honest and reputable, and have to ask if there is not more to this than was explained.

Lastly, replacing a full log, just dropping a new one in the cache, is standard operating procedure and one small way you can actually be of benefit to your caching community.

Ed

But if she is so reputable, WHY delete a "needs maintenence" log? Had there been one of these on the cache page, I could have been prepared with an empty log to replace it when I went to find it.

6.7k · August 20, 2006

I often wonder why this CCCooperAgency gal is so beyond reproach that even her local reviewers defend her deplorable behavior

See my post above yours, but beyond that she epitomizes, to me, everything good about this game.

She is certainly not perfect, not above reproach, and not everyone agrees with her or her style of geocaching.

She IS smart enough not to give much attention to ankle-biters, yet is receptive to the feelings, ideas and mores of the caching community as a whole.

She's a popular geocacher for a reason. I don't doubt her cache logs are full!

Ed

1.5k · August 20, 2006

I know her personally to be honest and reputable, and have to ask if there is not more to this than was explained.

Lastly, replacing a full log, just dropping a new one in the cache, is standard operating procedure and one small way you can actually be of benefit to your caching community.

Ed

While I agree with your personal assessment of CCCA, it isn't up to the finders to maintain caches. Yes, it's a nice thing to do, however the hider is ultimately responsible for maintaining their hides. And, regardless of who the cacher is, when one person has literally hundreds of caches hidden, it's not a stretch to figure out that there's no way he/she can maintain all those caches all the time. Many of CCCA's hides require frequent maintnance, and while she makes a good attempt to fix them, certainly some fall through the cracks. Maybe there should be a cap on the number of enabled hides one person can have at one time. Certainly she's not the only person who has caches that need maintenance though. I have to wonder why the OP chose to single her out?

2.6k · August 20, 2006

But if she is so reputable, WHY delete a "needs maintenence" log? Had there been one of these on the cache page, I could have been prepared with an empty log to replace it when I went to find it.

Good question. Simply deleting a "needs maintenance" log is pretty shabby, in my book.

The reason for all the "eating popcorn" emoticons, in case you were wondering, is that this particular cacher comes up from time to time and is always stoutly defended by her friends. You may be surprised to learn you are simply jealous of her accomplishments.

6.7k · August 20, 2006

But if she is so reputable, WHY delete a "needs maintenence" log? Had there been one of these on the cache page, I could have been prepared with an empty log to replace it when I went to find it.

Good question. Simply deleting a "needs maintenance" log is pretty shabby, in my book.

The reason for all the "eating popcorn" emoticons, in case you were wondering, is that this particular cacher comes up from time to time and is always stoutly defended by her friends. You may be surprised to learn you are simply jealous of her accomplishments.

No, his question is good - why would someone delete a Needs Maintenance log.

His statement that "It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad. I hope there is someway to nip this in the bud.", however, is ill-informed, over the top and violates the practice of personal attacks in these forums.

Keep the thread on the question at hand, please.

As to why she did it, did you email her and ask before complaining here?

1.7k · August 20, 2006

Over the years I have run across a number of caches that have had full log books and I usually carry a spare log book with me in case a new one is needed. Full log books are minor maintanence issue that ANYONE in addition to the cache owner can help with.

2.6k · August 20, 2006

Keep the thread on the question at hand, please.

Excuse me? Did the OP die and leave you this thread in his will or something?

August 20, 2006

I know her personally to be honest and reputable, and have to ask if there is not more to this than was explained.

Lastly, replacing a full log, just dropping a new one in the cache, is standard operating procedure and one small way you can actually be of benefit to your caching community.

Ed

While I agree with your personal assessment of CCCA, it isn't up to the finders to maintain caches. Yes, it's a nice thing to do, however the hider is ultimately responsible for maintaining their hides. And, regardless of who the cacher is, when one person has literally hundreds of caches hidden, it's not a stretch to figure out that there's no way he/she can maintain all those caches all the time. Many of CCCA's hides require frequent maintnance, and while she makes a good attempt to fix them, certainly some fall through the cracks. Maybe there should be a cap on the number of enabled hides one person can have at one time. Certainly she's not the only person who has caches that need maintenance though. I have to wonder why the OP chose to single her out?

I'm not trying to say anything personal about this gal, for all I know she's a great person. I'm not trying to put her down personally, I've never met her and cannot pass such judgement. I guess she was singled out because she deleted the "needs maintenence" logs, which I cannot for the life of me understand why, unless she doesn't want the local reviewers archiving her cache. The caches NEED MAINTENENCE. OK, let's MAINTAIN them. Don't delete the log and not do anything about it.

4.2k · August 20, 2006

She IS smart enough not to give much attention to ankle-biters, yet is receptive to the feelings, ideas and mores of the caching community as a whole.

Why take pot shots at somebody who didn't mean to stir the pot? It's obvious he doesn't even know her. Sounds like the OP was asking a legit question - why the logs were deleted - so why turn this into "she is great, blah blah"?

Every cacher has the responsibility to maintain thier own caches. Occasionally somebosy replaces a log for me, and for that I am gratefful. I do not however expect it.

Back to the original question - why were the logs deleted?

edit: for clarity

Edited August 20, 2006 by kealia

6.7k · August 20, 2006

Keep the thread on the question at hand, please.

Excuse me? Did the OP die and leave you this thread in his will or something?

Nope, but there is a certain expectation of behavior here, and I, like any other geocacher, can ask poster's to adhere to it, just as you can.

Asking folks to stay on topic shouldn't upset you. Could it be that you need to consider what brought out such a response in you... who asked it, mayhaps?

Ed

2.5k · August 20, 2006

Sorry Team Smokey, you accidentally opened the...

August 20, 2006

She IS smart enough not to give much attention to ankle-biters, yet is receptive to the feelings, ideas and mores of the caching community as a whole.

Back to the original question - why were the logs deleted?

edit: for clarity

For ONE of them, she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full. So she deleted that cache log. OK, perhaps I did find the old cache and found that log full, and perhaps I did not find the "new" cache at that location. But, instead of deleting the log, why not post a note on top of it explaining this for EVERYONE. That COULD have happened.

But the other log was just deleted. No reason what-so-ever.

You know, it's not like I'm trying to get on her case, I'm trying to help her out by telling her that the log if full and needs replaced. Now I see that other cachers can't log because the log is full. I don't think that this is fair to the other cachers. I reported it needs maintenence, let's fix the problem for the next person.

I mean, I was there. I know whether or not the cache log is full.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Team Smokey

August 20, 2006

According to the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines on the web site, a cache owner is responsible "for the placement and care of your cache". We were in Lancaster, PA last week and did a dozen or so caches there. I came across two different caches both placed by the same cacher (CCCooperAgency) who seems does not want to spend the time maintaining his caches. I posted a found log in both caches (GCQYNN and GCM4FE) and then I posted a "needs maintenence" log for both of them because the logs for both of them were full. I shortly received notice that my "needs maintenence" logs were deleted by CCCooperAgency.

my first (and probably ignorant) question is - were the needs maintenance logs deleted because the maintenance was done? You did not tell us it wasn't so... ??

I always assumed you could post one and it would be deleted once the problem was taken care of. Now if the problem wasn't taken care of, that would be a 'whole different thing.

August 20, 2006

I have never met CCCooperAgency, and never have had the opportunity to find any of her hides. But do recognize the name, (From reading in the forms).

Like I said never met her or found any of her hides, so I can not defend her, however I would give her a benefit of the doubt. Why would I do that? Well all we know is that your log was deleted, it is very possible that the logbooks were replaced, or soon will be.

Unless you have verified that the required maintenance (Replace logbooks) was not done in a reasonable time frame (week to ten days?). Then I would say you might have a complaint.

I understand that having a log deleted is a bit frustrating, but I would not take that as the log was not replaced.

I say that if the log was deleted then is very likely that she read it and knows that she needs to do something.

Jim

Kc8bdr

2.6k · August 20, 2006

Could it be that you need to consider what brought out such a response in you... who asked it, mayhaps?

No, I pretty much don't like to be told to shut up by anybody. The fact that you're doing you best to become the poster boy for shabby gameplay certainly didn't sweeten my reaction, though.

August 20, 2006

The reason for all the "eating popcorn" emoticons, in case you were wondering, is that this particular cacher comes up from time to time and is always stoutly defended by her friends. You may be surprised to learn you are simply jealous of her accomplishments.

Thanks for the "popcorn" info. I was indeed wondering. I haven't frequented the forums much.

As for the being jealous reference, I don't really care that much about MY numbers much less anyone else's.

2.3k · August 20, 2006

Keep the thread on the question at hand, please.

Excuse me? Did the OP die and leave you this thread in his will or something?

Nope, but there is a certain expectation of behavior here, and I, like any other geocacher, can ask poster's to adhere to it, just as you can.

Asking folks to stay on topic shouldn't upset you. Could it be that you need to consider what brought out such a response in you... who asked it, mayhaps?

Ed

Lets leave the moderation of the threads to the moderators. If you feel it needs moderation please report the thread and a moderator will look into it.

Thank you.

August 20, 2006

I didn't realize this was a woman - I thought CCCooperAgency was one of those cache machine collective entities. :laughing:

August 20, 2006

Like I said never met her or found any of her hides, so I can not defend her, however I would give her a benefit of the doubt. Why would I do that? Well all we know is that your log was deleted, it is very possible that the logbooks were replaced, or soon will be.

Unless you have verified that the required maintenance (Replace logbooks) was not done in a reasonable time frame (week to ten days?). Then I would say you might have a complaint.

I understand that having a log deleted is a bit frustrating, but I would not take that as the log was not replaced.

I say that if the log was deleted then is very likely that she read it and knows that she needs to do something.

Jim

Kc8bdr

You can take a look at the two caches in question. The next cacher that found the one said that same thing. The log is full. The other hasn't been found since me yet. It IS a difficult find.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Team Smokey

2.6k · August 20, 2006

I would have the same reaction as the previous poster about was maintenance done on the cache. Also, you logged the cache on August 17. Why don't you give your reviewer and the cache owner time to respond to your email, replace the container or log book instead of running to the forums to complain?

2.4k · August 20, 2006

I would have the same reaction as the previous poster about was maintenance done on the cache. Also, you logged the cache on August 17. Why don't you give your reviewer and the cache owner time to respond to your email, replace the container or log book instead of running to the forums to complain?

Why didn't the cache owner go do the maintenance, then post and "Owner Maintenance" log, instead of simply deleting the OP's "Needs Maintenance" log?

August 20, 2006

I would have the same reaction as the previous poster about was maintenance done on the cache. Also, you logged the cache on August 17. Why don't you give your reviewer and the cache owner time to respond to your email, replace the container or log book instead of running to the forums to complain?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know that we cache hiders just delete the "needs maintenence" logs. I thought protocol was to post a "performed maintenence" log. Oh yeah, and by the way, if you read the original post, I want to know

"The question is, what can be done about cachers who are not playing by the rules and not maintaining their caches?"

2.6k · August 20, 2006

IV: Good question. I can't speak for the cache owner but I would probably delete the cache maintenance log after doing cache maintenance as not to discourage someone from coming to find the cache.

2.6k · August 20, 2006

How long would you give someone to perform maintenance on their cache once such a log is posted?

Edited August 20, 2006 by LadeBear68

August 20, 2006

Unless the cache owner posts an "Owner Maintinance" log, it doesn't do much good to delete the "Needs Maintinance" log. The "Needs Maintinance" attribute is still on the cache page.

August 20, 2006

I did say has or will do it. And a day or two is two short a time. Give her at least a week to fix the problem.

I know that are times that a week can go by before I can get to one of my hides with a problem.

I will grant you this, I would post a log ASAP indicating this on the cache page in question.

Jim

Kc8bdr

Like I said never met her or found any of her hides, so I can not defend her, however I would give her a benefit of the doubt. Why would I do that? Well all we know is that your log was deleted, it is very possible that the logbooks were replaced, or soon will be.

Unless you have verified that the required maintenance (Replace logbooks) was not done in a reasonable time frame (week to ten days?). Then I would say you might have a complaint.

I understand that having a log deleted is a bit frustrating, but I would not take that as the log was not replaced.

I say that if the log was deleted then is very likely that she read it and knows that she needs to do something.

Jim

Kc8bdr

You can take a look at the two caches in question. The next cacher that found the one said that same thing. The log is full. The other hasn't been found since me yet. It IS a difficult find.

22k · August 20, 2006

GCQYNN - I would have deleted any maintenance log, you signed the wrong cache log. (Correction, I would have contacted you to change your found it to a note or DNF, and then would have deleted your found if you didn't eventually change it.

GCM4FE - Full logbook? Eh, I would have left it, but a mention of the issues in my found it log would have been enough to me.

Edited August 20, 2006 by BlueDeuce

2.6k · August 20, 2006

GCQYNN - I would have deleted any maintenance log, you signed the wrong cache log. (Correction, I would have contacted you to change your found it to a note or DNF, and then would have deleted your found if you didn't eventually change it.

GCM4FE - Full logbook? Eh, I would have left it, but a mention of the issues in my found it log would have been enough to me.

So technically GCQYNN is not a smiley because they didn't sign the right log? Oh wait, that might be another topic.

August 20, 2006

For ONE of them, she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full. So she deleted that cache log. OK, perhaps I did find the old cache and found that log full, and perhaps I did not find the "new" cache at that location.

Seems to me that when replacing a cache one would take time to remove the geotrash of the first cache.

2.4k · August 20, 2006

GCQYNN - I would have deleted any maintenance log, you signed the wrong cache log. (Correction, I would have contacted you to change your found it to a note or DNF, and then would have deleted your found if you didn't eventually change it.

GCM4FE - Full logbook? Eh, I would have left it, but a mention of the issues in my found it log would have been enough to me.

So technically GCQYNN is not a smiley because they didn't sign the right log? Oh wait, that might be another topic.

Or, it could fit right in this thread. If the cache owner was doing proper cache maintenance, there wouldn't be 2 cache containers at ground zero.......

August 20, 2006

How could you sign the wrong log? The old cache should have been retrived not left as geotrash, i'm still new to this game but i think that deleting the log is not the best way to handle it. Maybe anote to say i'll get a new one next week or at least thank you i'll fix it soon.

spoke out of turn owner stated could to get due to being stuck. sorry that sounded acceptable for me, they did try to remove make a note to have some that can get it out to take it.

Greg :laughing:

Edited August 20, 2006 by Glock22

22k · August 20, 2006

GCQYNN - I would have deleted any maintenance log, you signed the wrong cache log. (Correction, I would have contacted you to change your found it to a note or DNF, and then would have deleted your found if you didn't eventually change it.

GCM4FE - Full logbook? Eh, I would have left it, but a mention of the issues in my found it log would have been enough to me.

So technically GCQYNN is not a smiley because they didn't sign the right log? Oh wait, that might be another topic.

Or, it could fit right in this thread. If the cache owner was doing proper cache maintenance, there wouldn't be 2 cache containers at ground zero.......

True, true.

August 20, 2006

I posted a "needs maintenence" log for both of them because the logs for both of them were full. I shortly received notice that my "needs maintenence" logs were deleted by CCCooperAgency. I can only conclude that they don't want Groundspeak to see that their cache is in need of maintenence. Otherwise, WHY DELETE THEM?

Perhaps they'd gone and done the maintenance, and therefore felt the log entries were no longer relevant? It's a possibility worth considering.

Myabe they don't understand their commitment to the game.

Don't you mean "Maybe they don't understand that they have to do things according to my schedule, demands and requirements"? I don't think you can make a reasonable judgement about their commitment based on limited anecdotal evidence.

I e-mailed my local reviewer explaining the situation [...] I have not gotten a response from him or anyone else about it.

Maybe he doesn't see a need to respond to every complaint he gets from people who think others aren't meeting their arbitrary standards?

It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad.

That's a bit meodramatic, don't you think?

Edited August 20, 2006 by VeryLost

6.4k · August 20, 2006

For ONE of them, she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full. So she deleted that cache log. OK, perhaps I did find the old cache and found that log full, and perhaps I did not find the "new" cache at that location.

Seems to me that when replacing a cache one would take time to remove the geotrash of the first cache.

I would guess one *would* remove the old cache if they could find it. Most cache owners have at one time or other had trouble finding their own cache. Seems many finders think it's proper to move the cache to a better spot, or closer to the "correct" coords (why they think their GPS is more accurate then anyone else's I have no idea). Anyway, it's not uncommon for a cache to be reported missing and the owner verifies the cache is not there and replaces it; only to have someone else find the old cache 20ft away. Not saying that's what happened in this case, only it's happened to many people in the past.

Besides, what's the big deal with deleting the logs? Like someone else mentioned, the "needs maintenance" attribute stays set on the page, so she isn't hiding anything by deleting the log. Looking at the caches in question, the OP mentioned the problem in his found log, so why leave a duplicate log taking up one of the 5 logs paperless cachers get in a PQ?

Edited August 20, 2006 by Mopar

9.3k · August 20, 2006

she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full.

Am I reading this right? Did CCC leave the old cache behind when she replaced it?

1.4k · August 20, 2006

I generally avoid posting "Needs Maintenance" when I notice the log sheet is full. The owner shouldn't be ignoring the e-mails on cache logs anyway, and I figure he will maintain it at his earliest convenience. (For PC people, "he" can also refer to "she" as it's perfectly OK according my English teacher.... that was 20 years ago :laughing: )

When a cache is in terrible shape, or it is likely missing after a few DNFs, I'll post a "Needs Maintenance" to push the issue a little harder. Nothing personal, just trying to speak up for the community.

It's unfortunate the OP's Needs Maintenance logs were deleted, but it's clear the owner is aware of the problem because they were deleted. :lol: If she can't take care of it, I'm sure her friends can, so you can move on since you did your part.

August 20, 2006

You know, it's not like I'm trying to get on her case

No, of course not........

"It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad."

2.6k · August 20, 2006

This is the log that was posted at the cache about the old container:

You must have signed the OLD cache which several of us could NOT remove where it was jammed in! The new cache was ONLY JUST put out!!!! INITIALS ONLY!!!

August 20, 2006

The fact that you're doing you best to become the poster boy for shabby gameplay certainly didn't sweeten my reaction, though.

I'm confused - I thought the game was geocaching, and that this was just a discussion forum. Are the forums actually the game? 'Cause I could play this one without ever seeing a mosquito.

6.4k · August 20, 2006

she said that she had just replaced the cache and that I must have found the "old" cache which presumable was full.

Am I reading this right? Did CCC leave the old cache behind when she replaced it?

After going back an reading the logs, yes she did, with an acceptable (to me) reason for doing it.

August 17 by CCCooperAgency (16371 found)
You must have signed the OLD cache which several of us could NOT remove where it was jammed in! The new cache was ONLY JUST put out!!!! INITIALS ONLY!!!

Several other logs made reference to the old cache being jammed in it's hiding place so tightly they could not remove it either.

2.7k · August 20, 2006

The fact that you're doing you best to become the poster boy for shabby gameplay certainly didn't sweeten my reaction, though.

I'm confused - I thought the game was geocaching, and that this was just a discussion forum. Are the forums actually the game? 'Cause I could play this one without ever seeing a mosquito.

You are missing some important information - her remark has nothing to do with the forums.

August 20, 2006

You are missing some important information - her remark has nothing to do with the forums.

Yeah, I could detect the undercurrent of well-established snipery.

Edited August 20, 2006 by VeryLost

6.7k · August 20, 2006

You are missing some important information - her remark has nothing to do with the forums.

Yeah, I could detect the undercurrent of well-established snipery.

:laughing:

1.5k · August 20, 2006

It sounds like the crux of your upset is the log deletion. It IS a bit rude, I agree. (I get those log deletion notices all the time - cachers delete publish logs and archive / unarchive logs. I guess they think the logs clutter the page. They're messing with my stats, not that I care much.)

I'm sure CCCA knows that the needs maintenance attribute remains on the cache page whether the log is deleted or not (as you apparently did not), and also that the log type is NOT forwarded to a reviewer. On the whole, there's precious little difference whether your log is deleted or remains on the page. The red "needs maintenance" icon is there, until cleared by a maintenance performed log by the owner. Your time frame expectation on cache maintenance seems a bit quick, though I'm guessing what really triggered your visit to the forums was the log deletion. Again, I'll agree, seems a bit rude, but as it doesn't affect the cache page icon one way or another, it hardly matters.

Speaking of rude,

It is cachers like this who are turning this sport bad.

Oddly, I don't find the sport bad at all.

Cache owners not playing by the rules

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