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Some gentle Advise Please!


CuMoChi
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Hello All,

 

This is my first post so please be gentle with me. I have been reading the forms for some time now and I feel a need for you help.

 

We are somewhat new to geocaching and have set out 5 caches, my first three were great and they seem to be well liked. Then I put out my two newest and have been sorry ever since.

 

If you could take a few minutes and go to my profile and check out my caches "For those who served" which made it about 2 weeks before I pulled it, and "Onion Rings" which is still out there and I would like to pull it but don't know if I am able to do that.

 

I am so tired of all the comments. It is hard to get online and read all the negative comments thrown at me every day. I am about to quit Geocaching for good!!

 

Am I being to thin skinned??

Should I expect this type of logs and this is just part of caching???

What should I do??

 

My plan right now is to pull the cache forever.

 

By the way this is a hard cache, very small micro, I have told people by notes in the log, it is not in the alley, or in the Restaurant, but they are still mad at me.

 

Some cachers have emailed me that it is within the limits of coords being off to be okay and to just ignore the comments.

 

Thank you for all you advise.

CuMoChi

Again try to be nice!!!!

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Hello CuMoChi :huh: !

 

I can see where you are coming from with the comments that you read. I would consider it a learning experience, as painful as it must be.

 

I myself don't like city caches where I think I'm a suspect for doing no good. That's why I like to hide most of mine out in the boondocks.

 

My advice is to make sure the coords were averaged for at least 10 minutes and consider every possible problem, like bad bugs, that cachers might encounter. I have made some hides that I had to modify to keep the "noise" down.

 

Hints are always good.

 

Hang in there!

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In My Opinion - a 1/1 micro cache should be impossible. It's small and most GPSr's have a 20-30 ft error, so, depending on the location, it could be next to impossible to find, without some sort of clue (which you don't provide) So for those who served, I would have set the difficulty higher (3/1 maybe) and then a hint to help those micro challenged, like most of us. :huh:

 

Although you seem to have some rather rude cachers up there, I think you may need to do some more work on averaging GPS coordinates, so you give a good location before you post your cache.

 

Also, just give it a few more months. experience is a good thing.

 

your opinions may vary

Edited by Jhwk
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I read the logs on the two caches in question, and think you need to get better coords or explain in the description the areas to focus attention on. Frankly, on the one by a restaraunt, after so many bad coords notes in logs, I think folks are being pretty nice about it!

 

As to the one by the bees, a cacher that cares would move it immediately to prevent other cachers from being hurt.

 

I don't think you are being thin-skinned, I think you are ignoring the needs and enjoyment of your geocachers! :huh:

 

Repetitive negative logs should tell you something!

 

Ed

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From looking at the logs it seems that the biggest problem is that your coordinates are off. You need to average caches. This meeans taking several readings and averaging those numbers. To average you need to take a reading, walk off 75 feet or so and come back and see what numbers you get. Do this at least 10 times. Also let the GPS sit on top of the cache for at least 5 minutes to settle down.

 

When you think you have the right numbers back off a couple of hundred feet and see if your GPS will take you to the cache.

 

Most of all, don't quit. You just need a little practice and maybe a local mentor.

 

Good luck!

El Diablo

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I think you are being thin skinned. None of the logs are especially negative. They just state the facts.

 

Regarding Those Who Served, if 6 different people reported problems with bees, then there probably is a problem with bees. Archiving or moving the cache is the way to go.

 

Your second one is rated two stars for difficulty, which means it should be fairly easy, yet you have 9 DNFs (and probably a lot more who didn't log) and only 2 Found Its. Sounds like its not rated correctly. If I see 2 star difficulty, I expect to find the cache with a little bit of searching. It also seems like the coords are off a bit.

I also wonder what is so interesting about the rear of a restaurant that you would want to bring people there.

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I think you are being thin skinned. None of the logs are especially negative. They just state the facts.

 

I guess:

"Once again, much like the one up the road, the coords on this one are atrocious."

"The alley out back is a wreck - I wouldn't wish my enemies to have to go back there to look for a cache."

"as those of us who are used to caching expect the caches to be *AT* or at least close to the posted coordinates."

"Happy to stop by today and tour the front 15 ft. of the sidewalk for another hour. Was even able to give a guided tour of the alley's bright spot(s). Every now and then I get the feeling they put bads coords on purpose."

 

wouldn't be considered "especially negative"

 

sugar coating a turd is still a sugar coated turd.

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I think you are being thin skinned. None of the logs are especially negative. They just state the facts.

 

Regarding Those Who Served, if 6 different people reported problems with bees, then there probably is a problem with bees. Archiving or moving the cache is the way to go.

 

Your second one is rated two stars for difficulty, which means it should be fairly easy, yet you have 9 DNFs (and probably a lot more who didn't log) and only 2 Found Its. Sounds like its not rated correctly. If I see 2 star difficulty, I expect to find the cache with a little bit of searching. It also seems like the coords are off a bit.

I also wonder what is so interesting about the rear of a restaurant that you would want to bring people there.

 

 

For those who served has been archived. For Onion Rings I and also another cacher have both gotten coords quite close to each other and they all seem to be off too much. Are coords keep coming up 28-20 feet off. And the cache is in front of the restaurant not in the rear. This is a very small little town that I thought would enjoy a easy sidewalk cache with our summer heat (that was my reasoning).

 

CuMoChi

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I seems all of the heat is about co-ords being off, which personally I understand. The game can be challenging enough with the co-ords working against you. I wouldn't pull the caches but I would defiantly update them with better co-ordinates. Keep in mind the DNFers are frustrated which doesn't usually result in them being very diplomatic.

 

You getting frustrated over the coments is also normal. Learn from it and correct the problem. Pulling the caches because of it would be 'thin skinned'.

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I think you are being thin skinned. None of the logs are especially negative. They just state the facts.

 

Regarding Those Who Served, if 6 different people reported problems with bees, then there probably is a problem with bees. Archiving or moving the cache is the way to go.

 

Your second one is rated two stars for difficulty, which means it should be fairly easy, yet you have 9 DNFs (and probably a lot more who didn't log) and only 2 Found Its. Sounds like its not rated correctly. If I see 2 star difficulty, I expect to find the cache with a little bit of searching. It also seems like the coords are off a bit.

I also wonder what is so interesting about the rear of a restaurant that you would want to bring people there.

 

 

For those who served has been archived. For Onion Rings I and also another cacher have both gotten coords quite close to each other and they all seem to be off too much. Are coords keep coming up 28-20 feet off. And the cache is in front of the restaurant not in the rear. This is a very small little town that I thought would enjoy a easy sidewalk cache with our summer heat (that was my reasoning).

 

CuMoChi

Maybe an "offset cache would do the trick. Find a place nearby, where you can get solid coords, and then give them a little puzzle to get to the final location. I did something similar for this cache. There are ways around bad coords.

 

Also, you can seek out a "senior" cacher locally, who can give you some hands on help.

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I seems all of the heat is about co-ords being off, which personally I understand. The game can be challenging enough with the co-ords working against you. I wouldn't pull the caches but I would defiantly update them with better co-ordinates. Keep in mind the DNFers are frustrated which doesn't usually result in them being very diplomatic.

 

You getting frustrated over the coments is also normal. Learn from it and correct the problem. Pulling the caches because of it would be 'thin skinned'.

 

agree, don't archive, just disable until you can fix the issue(s). They will thank you for it later

 

REMEMBER! This is supposed to be fun. :huh:

Edited by Jhwk
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Was entertaining just reading the logs on both caches and i too think you are being too thinned skinned as well. Everyone has the same complaints so there does seem to be problems.

 

It's been mentioned above but the main thing everyone is griping about is that they think the coordinates are off. Like El Diablo said, try averaging for at least a few minutes to get your best numbers. It's up to you but a subtle hint may be just the thing to make these more enjoyable for future finders. The main thing is to make sure the difficulty ratings and that the coordinates are right.

 

Lastly, if you feel good about these caches then by all means, leave em in place. You may have more unhappy logs come in but i can tell you now that it makes it all much more fun for the cachers who do indeed make the finds!

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I think the cache needs hints. If it is not in the alley or inside the restaurant then say that in the cache description.

 

As for the bees they can not be there one day and then be a whole big nest the next day. I would have disabled the cache while the bees were there or moved it away from the bees. Or if the coords were off and it was not near the bees I would have put that in the description.

 

I do not think it is your fault that a cacher was stung 35 times.....they should have not searched in the area if they thought the bees would sting them.

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Are coords keep coming up 28-20 feet off.

 

20 - 30 feet off is reasonable for a regular sized cache but it could make a small micro much harder. Again, with all the DNFs on that cache, I think you should consider adjusting your difficulty rating.

 

The accepted definition of 2 star difficulty is:

 

** - Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting.

 

With all those DNFs, it is obviously more than 2 stars. People tend to be a little more accepting if the cache is rated properly. Also, you have no hint. If you want people to find it, you should give them a hint. If you want it to be tough, leave the hint out and up the difficulty to 3 or 3.5 stars.

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You stated in your note to the log that the cache was not near a bees nest, and I believe you, but that misses the point. The log posters didn't say the cache was near a bees nest, they said a bees nest was near the posted coords. There's nothing wrong with your caches. Get a caching buddy to go out with you and double check your coords.

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I setup one cache that is just into a dense woods from a clearing. I got a good reading in the open then told the people to walk 20 feet east from there. I would now post that reading as a waypoint and do my best with the other one. I could describe the waypoints position as being 20 feet west of the cache.

 

I have also gotten a good reading out in the open then estimated the actual coords 50 feet away up next to a building where the cache was. In the open I paced off the 50 feet to see how much of a change it produced so that I knew how much adjustment to make. Since other GPSrs would have the same problem I might want to make the clear shot reading as a waypoint to start at it also.

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Actually I have a letter 1/2 drafted to the OP...sorry...I've been fixing a cache that I messed up the coords for since I started the letter this morning. Luckily it was caught before anyone got to boat out to it. Plus I haven’t even logged my finds yet…

 

The two of us went to the 2 caches in question about a week and a half ago. While posting my DNFs for your caches, I still was angry that a cache that I was hoping to make my 2k cache was a lame 1/1 traditional instead of the cool 4.5/4.5 multi it lied about being, but that's another topic for another time as well.

 

My parents are newbie cachers, they spent a terrible amount of time scouring the area a few days before. They were really bummed...as new cachers, DNFs can make things NOT fun. So we said we'd come over and try it.

 

Regarding “For those who served”:

 

The cache was the first we tried. There was a piece of artillery pointing away from a gazebo. The coords placed us 10 ft in front of the gun. We looked all over the gun, and saw the yellow jacket (?) nests. We looked the best we could. We gave the gazebo a gentle once over on the way back to the car, but it was getting a hot as blazes, and we’d both crawled under the cannon and were done

 

My log, dated July 29: “DNF. After 5 more days of Benedryl and steroid packs, the doctor said everything should be okay without any lasting damage after what they estimated to be 35 stings to my left hand. That should make it very hard for me to play fiddle. I'll bring some Raid next time. The doctor said I should have gone straight to the ER instead of trying to find ONE MORE cache. Isn't it great that hospitals now have WiFi?!?!?”.

 

I forget that not everyone in the area is familiar with my sarcasm, I was not stung by 35 bees, I hope that didn't worry you. (I thought 35 was ridiculous, I’ll use 1001 or two bizillion next time) I find out later that the cache WAS in the gazebo, at least 50 (maybe more) feet from the coords. It was archived before we got a chance to go back.

 

Upon reviewing the posts, I see 5 DNFs and 4 found logs indicating problems. No hints were given to steer people away from the questionable area, where they apparently didn’t have to go.

 

Regarding “Onion Rings”:

 

On our first hunt, all we knew about the cache was that the size was “micro” and “be stealthy”. I believe that the original difficulty level was much lower, maybe a 1.5? The Moops posted they were concerned for cachers being arrested, and a post note was made about the cache being hidden with permission later. Please note there were 5 constructive DNFS before any “insensitive” ones were flying, and nothing changed with the cache page to help out the cachers. So we went out July 29th.

 

My original log from July 29 “Came here as our last cache of the day. Checked in all kinds of places that we didn't want to look. The coords still need work, they put us in the middle of the kitchen, towards the back of the restaurant. Since the log was posted that this WAS hidden with permission, we searched with abandon. A young employee gave us a strange look, and we had to tell him what we were doing. He didn't know about any "scavenger hunt," so he went to ask his supervisor about it. She did know, and another employee was ready to give us an FTF prize, but we explained that we hadn't actually found anything. We just bought a GPSmap60CSx if you need some coord help we can let you borrow it. Is this why they created the "ignore" feature on this site? That was gross behind the restaurant. The only thing that was enjoyable about the visit was that we met some nice people in a gross back alley full of grease and broken glass. Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the rat skeleton behind the freezer.” The coords were 20 ft from the back alley, and 60+ feet from the front, when we looked. We looked at the whole alley and for a couple of minutes up front. Even this didn’t encourage anyone to search the front of the building, because neither the coords, nor the cache page told us to. In addendum, this is in a small town downtown, where all the buildings are in a strip, and you had to walk down the alley, around the corner and back down the street to get to the front of the building.

 

There were 8 DNFs, including mine, before the FTF found the cache with the cache hider present from what I can tell. The info was NOW divulged that the cache was actually in the front of the restaurant. With coords being “30 feet” off be your admission, letting us know it was the front, not the back would not really be a hint, but would have stopped at least 8 (or more) cacher teams from searching in that filthy place. We did NOT rule out the alley, as there are some cachers that have hidden in such places, for whatever reason.

 

When we returned on Sunday, armed with the fact that we were now to search in the front of the building, we did find the nano cache, no bigger than a stack of 4 shirt buttons. I haven’t logged my find yet, because I’ve worked 10+ hour days since Sunday when I found the cache.

____________________________________________________________

 

After summarizing my experience at the two caches in Lyons, OH, I offer some constructive criticism, which was on my mind before I saw that this had been brought up in the national forums.

 

If you have a doubt about your coords, even after checking them, it’s okay to put more info on the cache page. Even with poor coords, if you’d have let the cachers know from the beginning that the cache was on the front of the restaurant instead of behind or “not on the gun”, your caches would likely have gone from “Thumbs Down” lists to “nice evil nano” category.

 

And as I said in my log, we (perhaps along with some other cachers) are willing to undergo a “test run” of coordinates to help you out. Otherwise average the coords a while, walk around the block, and see how close you come when you get there again.

 

A lot of cachers in this area believe that the smaller the cache, the more accurate your coords should be. Walk before you run…just try hiding some nice “walk in the woods ammo boxes.” There are still some places to put them out there, I just placed a regular sized plastic box cache about 9 miles from there, at the cemetery where my great grandma rests.

 

Let us know if we can help.

 

-Mrs. BBD

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I stumbled upon this forum piece, and as such decided to look at your profile. I think this is just the reverse of an inexperienced finder who has trouble FINDING micros. I don't think your problem is inability to do hides, it's just inexperience with MICRO hides.

 

Your profile shows that before these two hides, you had three other hides with no trouble, in fact it looks like the finders thought you gave them a nice reasonable challenge!

 

So stand tall and be proud of yourself! I/we have not done our first hide yet, so it looks to us like you're doing pretty good. If we lived near OH/MI we'd look for your caches!

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I don't know how the geocachers that logged DNF's go geocaching, but I generally read the logs of previous folks. Sometimes this gives me important clues about the site. The "those who served" logs told me without to much ado that there would be stinging insects here. Perhaps a note in the description about the possibility of getting stung going after this would have helped. I dunno :laughing: I even saw humor in the log of the person who got stung. Didn't see it as a personal attack. I think you've got one or two problem cachers giving you trash. Grow thick skin and ignore it. At least you're there to watch the site and make sure the cache is still there. About the "onion rings":I'm new enough to the sport that I wouldn't even have minded searching the alley. I'd for sure go back there just to look for the mouse that was mentioned. I don't like bad coords either, but again I'd read the logs and see that this wasn't really all as easy as it might seem. I pay little attention to the ratings. My only thought is that I will find it and log it.

My two cents on this is that you are caring for the caches, they are there, and you have a valid way to contact you. More than is available at some caches. I see me snagging the "those who served" one in the winter time when the insects aren't quite as busy. :laughing:

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I think you've taken a good first step - you recognize there's a problem, and you're taking steps to educate yourself on how to correct it. That's more than many hiders with cache problems do. That advice you've gotten here is good - average your coords multiple times. Move away and come back to the coords you think are right, and see if they lead you to the cache. You might also consider using a very accurate aerial photo program (such as USAPhotomaps) to plot your cache on an aerial photo and see if the coords show it where it really is.

 

Urban micros are loved by some and hated by others. You'll need to learn to shrug off negative comments, unless those comments point out a problem with the cache - like bees or bad coords. Take action when you can fix a problem or make it better, but if someone's just griping cause that cache wasn't their cup of tea don't worry about it. You can't please everyone.

Edited by DocDiTTo
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Looks like you have plenty of advice, but I feel compelled to add my .02 anyway. You might want to spend some more time getting accurate coordinates or offer a hint if the area will just not allow for a good fix. I use a 60cs and love the "average" feature. I let it run for 10 minutes or so and then click "go to" and follow the arrow and see if it leads me back to the cache. If not I take new coords. Other than that, IMHO, folks need to get a helmet! You don't like the cache? Don't look for it. But also don't whine about it in a log. Continue to hide caches that you think are cool or fun to find and don't worry about the peanut gallery. Just my opinion.

 

Cache on,

PWC

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I'm new enough to the sport that I wouldn't even have minded searching the alley.

 

:laughing: You didn't see the alley...grease, trash, and dead mouse carcass. :laughing:

 

BUT, the point is that with improved coords, and a little more info from the get go (front of restaurant, evil micro, we have permission) placed DIRECTLY on the CACHE page (not just a log that will not make it on someone's printout or PDA in the future), this would be a nice evil nano cache, even with poor coords.

:laughing:

 

-Mrs. BBD

 

edited to sign my note so that my post is not confused with those that my husband rarely makes....

Edited by BlackBrownDog
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If you hide a tough micro with iffy coordinates, no real description (the description should state "it's not in the alley) and no hint, you are going to have to take the heat of frustrated cachers.

 

Honestly, I would have ignored the caches after the 1st DNF...

 

My ignore key is stuck :laughing::laughing:

 

**edited for missing words

Edited by The Moop Along
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Well, I am not familiar with the area but a quick look at the surrounding caches tells me there are a mixture of micros and regular caches. If you wanted people to visit an interesting but busy spot, you could try a multi with the first stage being virtual and the second being a regular cache in a nearby (and less scrutinized) park.

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Sweet! A cache log I made got on the national forums.

 

I stewed for awhile before writing what I wrote. Here was my general beef.

 

The cache owner should have been aware by that time that the coords were bunk. When they became aware of this, they should have posted a note stating they were wrong, and perhaps disabled the cache. Once they thought they were right they should have reenabled it.

 

Sometimes being a little negative is the only thing that will finally get someones attention. The Alley behind this place is crazily gross, and the coords posted were closer to the back then the front.

 

Now that it's fixed, I apoligized, and will attempt to rehunt it.

 

Some thoughts for the future.

 

When hiding a cache like this, especially one with partially obstructed sat view (Think large brick building in front of you), it's a good idea to take coords for it several times. I'm not talking about "averaging for 10 minutes" so it can settle on the bad coords due to the bad solution, but walk 300 foot south. Reapproach. Let sit for 2 mins to average. Mark. Walk North 300 feet. Reapproach. Mark. Continue until you have 4 or 5 sets, then average those with a calculator.

 

I might even suggest rebooting the GPS in the middle to make it reaquire and possibly get a solution based on another set of sats.

 

This should make the coords better. If they are still wrong, please see above.

 

I think this is just a case of someone without enough expierence hiding caches like this being too think skinned about it. I'm sure your other caches are fine, and I ensure you, I don't hold any ill will towards you for it. Sometimes I come off grumpy, but I usually forget in 20 minutes, and I definatly won't hold it against you that you hid a bad cache (Otherwise, I wouldn't talk to most cachers anymore, as we've all hidden a bad one at some point).

 

Jason

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I actually enjoy hiding caches that will P/O jslagle. ;)

Please hide more of those. I have an unresolved DNF on a jslagle cache, and I am tortured by all the "found it" logs that fill my mailbox because I keep my DNF's on a bookmark list. It is a long ways away for me to come over and clean that one off my list, so he should suffer in the meantime.

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My $.02 - Any group of people is gong to have some super-kind people and some real jerks and everything in between. If your chosen cache location turns out to have some unpleasant qualities you didn't plan, it's not a big deal, just archive it and find a better spot.

 

If some of the cachers looking for your caches turn out to be unpleasant, just ignore them. There are a lot of children in this sport, and some of them are even under legal age.

 

As for the complaints about the coords being off, your check against someone else's GPSr was within the accepted margin of error, I believe.

 

When you place a cache you might want to let your GPSr simmer for a while and average the readings, if that's not what you're doing already. GPSr measurements can be somewhat fickle. Mine bounces around at least as much as the variation you saw with your friend.

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I actually enjoy hiding caches that will P/O jslagle. :)

Please hide more of those. I have an unresolved DNF on a jslagle cache, and I am tortured by all the "found it" logs that fill my mailbox because I keep my DNF's on a bookmark list. It is a long ways away for me to come over and clean that one off my list, so he should suffer in the meantime.

 

I think I've found most of slagle's caches...Lep, do you need me to guide you on a Tour de Toledo?!?

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Looks like I am going to have to get a second job just to pay for all the crying towels I am giving to the NWO folks! :)

 

I get stunk nine thousand three hunded and forty eight times, cancel my tour with Yo Yo Ma and I can't cry?!?!? I'm an emotional woman! (oops, there goes the sarcasm again).

 

Okay, so I can't cry. I'll just hand the towel to TMA!!

 

On another note. Good to see you in here, Raine.

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