Cache Denied

[+crystalndave]

We were trying to set up our third cache. The title is "Cachers Blight". The idea behind the cache is comical since there are posion plants, mud, bugs and of course the posted sign. None of which are torturous in this location but they are there. All of the things that make geocaching a little bit harder.

 

The cache is located on private property which is owened by my father. He has 20 acres and has given permission for the cache to be placed there and for people to then look for it. The cache is located about 20 feet off the road down a small slope and across a small stream. There are wild flowers, berries and wildlife. The cache was denied because the container itself is a posted sign (which isn't officially signed) and because there are posted signs on the other parts of the property. I can remove the ones closest to the cache (within 30 feet at least) but I don't think it is right to have to unpost the entire property. My father basically doesn't want people hunting, fishing or being around his house. The property has about 1200 feet of road frontage and the cache is on one end and my dad's residence is on the other no geocacher in his/her right mind should have to go near the house. You do not have to pass the signs to get to the cache but there are signs on the property over all. I think this is why it was denied. The reviewer also mentioned that people might try to come from a different direction and come up on the cache from behind. This can happen only if a person bushwacks about 2 miles through a creek bed across county property. You can see the container here http://www.masonlife.com/posted.htm

 

You can see some info about posting laws here:

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/s...ed/posting.html

 

I do not wish to bash the reviewer. There are also two reviewers in my area. Is it ok to ask the other one to look at it? Tell me what you think. If you think its a stupid idea please be specifc as to why. I have tried to portray the cache as acturately as possible. I am willing to work with the reviwer if changes need to be made.

Thank you all in advance for your replies.

 

Crystal

Edited July 25, 2006 by crystalndave

[+SG-MIN]

I think it is legit. I personally would have the heebie-jeebies searching for a cache on posted property, but if I read the cache page, and knew there was permission, I would think it was an awsome cache.

[+thedeadpirate]

If you took the same concept but made your own posted signs and added something like "cachers welcome" then you might have something. I like the overall idea of being comical. However, if I rolled up and saw a posted sign like that, I wouldn't even get out of the vehicle and I would be writing a note about the land being posted.

[+briansnat]

If you took the same concept but made your own posted signs and added something like "cachers welcome" then you might have something. I like the overall idea of being comical. However, if I rolled up and saw a posted sign like that, I wouldn't even get out of the vehicle and I would be writing a note about the land being posted.

 

As long as there is mention on the page that the cache is there with permission I think I would go for it. If it was even more specific (i.e. "the land is owned by my father"), I would be even more likely to attempt it.

 

BTW are those stinging nettles to the left of the cache? If so, OUCH! I hate those nasty things.

[+Moore9KSUcats]

Would it be possible to put on the sign something like "official geocache" where the name is, or the address? I have seen where people have put something like "official geocache logging station" on a fake utility box, which does give it away without being too obvious.

 

This is a very creative cache, and the aspect of having permission from the landowner explained on the cache page makes it more "allowable" than most that I have seen.

[Keystone]

Thank you for approaching the denial of your cache in a calm manner. Reviewers are more likely to work with you in that atmosphere.

 

That being said, it is highly unlikely that the other reviewer for your state will overturn their colleague's decision. That could be viewed negatively by the first reviewer, as both the hider and the other reviewer are "going behind his back." Often, reviewer decisions are judgment calls, and at the edges, two different volunteers could reach opposite conclusions. I support another reviewer's decision even if I would have reached a different result, except in cases of clear error. In that event, I would write privately to the other reviewer, rather than just reversing the decision.

 

The process for appealing the denial of a cache submission is spelled out in the listing guidelines:

1. Follow up with your reviewer; calmly explain why you think the wrong result was reached.
   
2. Ask your reviewer to discuss the issue with the entire volunteer group in our private forum.
   
3. Bring your question here to the Groundspeak Forums.
   
4. In cases of alleged inappropriate behavior, write to the appeals@ geocaching.com e-mail address.
   

I hope that this information is helpful.

[+wvcoalcat]

Along with the cache page suggestions, maybe you could make it a multi. That'd give you some control over the direction seekers would travel to it. Don't know if it'll work in this case, just my .02.

[Team Misguided]

Rather than use an 'official' Posted sign why not make one of your own that looks a little less official and has a few comical phrases in it that anyone who got close enough would be able to read.

[+wimseyguy]

I would not take this to the other reviewer. That would be asking them to overrule the first reviewer, and will only lead to problems for all involved down the road.

 

I would suggest sending an email directly to the initial reviewer, and ask what can be done to get this one listed. They might have missed the text about it being family owned land, and permission is granted? Caches can be hidden on private property with proper permission, you may want to add the property owners contact info in your email as well. Perhaps modify the POSTED sign by adding a geologo? I think it is a fun idea. Oh and I hate stinging nettles too.

[+AtoZ]

Instead of placing it so folks have to travel down a road that is marked PRIVATE PROPERTY place it at such that it is on a fence that is accessable from public land but adjacent to your fathers property so folks will not have to bascially trustpass on his property. I know you have premission but....

cheers

[+The Herd]

I would have to say that because the posted sign says "trespassing for ANY reason is STRICTLY forbidden" I would pass this one up, unless there were something on the post to make it obvious that it were a cache. Perhaps get some mailbox letters and numbers and put the GC number on the post itself, that way, only cachers would know what exactly it was. I do think it is a GREAT hide, but the wording on the sign left as it is would make me not hunt it out.

[+briansnat]

I would have to say that because the posted sign says "trespassing for ANY reason is STRICTLY forbidden" I would pass this one up, unless there were something on the post to make it obvious that it were a cache. Perhaps get some mailbox letters and numbers and put the GC number on the post itself, that way, only cachers would know what exactly it was. I do think it is a GREAT hide, but the wording on the sign left as it is would make me not hunt it out.

 

Or maybe the sign can have the cache name and GC# on the name and address lines. I know that its supposed to be the real name and address of the property owner, but I don't think one sign with cache info on it will be an issue.

[ParentsofSAM]

The sign does say something written encoded in Rot13 if I came on site and saw that then I would know it was a geocache.

 

But maybe the GC# and a geocaching sticker would help it be more visible as the cache and not something that would get you arrested.

[+The Cheeseheads]

To keep people from coming at it from an undesired direction, add a "trailhead" waypoint to indicate the spot where finders should start their approach to the cache.

[+crystalndave]

I emailed the reviewer, which I think was the right thing to do(?). My cache has been archived? Is that what normally happens when they are denied?

 

There are some pictures of the new sign at:

http://www.masonlife.com/posted.htm

 

Thanks!

Crystal

[+Fish Below The Ice]

There are some pictures of the new sign at:

http://www.masonlife.com/posted.htm

"Mail a check for $3.01"

 

 

dave

[+ODragon]

I emailed the reviewer, which I think was the right thing to do(?). My cache has been archived? Is that what normally happens when they are denied?

There are some pictures of the new sign at:

http://www.masonlife.com/posted.htm

 

Yes, if a reviewer thinks the cache won't be published, they can archive it to remove it from the queue. They can just as easily unarchive it. Make sure you send them the link to the picture, I think that helps too! Good luck and make sure you let us know how it turns out!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I emailed the reviewer, which I think was the right thing to do(?). My cache has been archived? Is that what normally happens when they are denied?...

 

Every Reviewer is different. Some archive caches right off, some put them on hold, make suggestions and try to help you get the listing published. Sometimes a Reviewer could go either way, depending on mood and workload!

 

Your best bet is communication with the Reviewer - if your cache is denied ask what can be done to fix it. If that doesn't work, as others have mentioned, going to another Reviewer or to the forums will certainly not! As one Reviewer has mentioned, they stick together right or wrong.

 

Read and follow the Appeals process if you and your Reviewer can't work it out, and if even that fails maybe you should consider that if the overwhelming consensus of these very experienced individuals is that it's a bad idea, it just might be!

 

Ed

[+briansnat]

I emailed the reviewer, which I think was the right thing to do(?). My cache has been archived? Is that what normally happens when they are denied?

 

There are some pictures of the new sign at:

http://www.masonlife.com/posted.htm

 

Thanks!

Crystal

 

I don't think a handmade sign is necessary. There is really no guideline that prevents you placing a cache on posted land as long as you have permission. I still don't know all the details but I'm sure we'll find out if the reviewer weighs in.

 

I agree with The Alabama Rambler that you should keep communicating with the reviewer. As Keystone mentioned you could also ask him if he would take it to the other reviewers for input.

[+Renegade Knight]

1) If you have demonstrable permission to be there it doesn't matter what the sign says. Property owners for example are not subject to their own signs. The owner permitting a cache imparts permission to seek the cache. The signs are like points on who's line is it. They don't matter.

2) Keystone has touched on an unofficial policy that I've encountered from many angles. Work with your reviewer.

3) The cache is legit regardless of the signs, or the thousand wrong approaches to the cache since there is a way to get to it that's legit. If we had to account for every stupid thing, wrong direction or hint of trouble that cachers could get into who would place caches? Good thing that's not in the guidelines.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+crystalndave]

If the land is posted its not open to goecaching. If you remove some

of the posters near the cache that's not to say someone won't approach

your cache from another direction and encounter posters.

 

Above is exactly what the reviewer wrote to me.

 

I don't think a handmade sign is necessary. There is really no guideline that prevents you placing a cache on posted land as long as you have permission. I still don't know all the details but I'm sure we'll find out if the reviewer weighs in.

 

I tried to provide everyone with as many factual details as possible. I would love to have the real posted sign because it looks more like it belongs there. However, I did write to the reviewer and asked him/her to reconsider with the new sign. If he/she still declines I will ask to have it brought to the reviewer forums.

Thanks again!

[+Harry Dolphin]

The reviewer also mentioned that people might try to come from a different direction and come up on the cache from behind. This can happen only if a person bushwacks about 2 miles through a creek bed across county property.

 

Never underestimate the abilities of a determined geocacher! Would you father object? I've done half-mile bushwhacks.

 

Perhaps something less severe than the sign on the cache "Trespassing for any purpose is strictly forbidden"?

 

I have two operant theories of life. One is "Oh, well." (You'd be surprised how many ulcers that prevents.) That's probably what I would say in this instance. Oh, well. The other is "The dolphin don't go where the dolphin ain't wanted." And that's what I'd probably say to myself seeing the 'Trespassers will be persecuted" signs.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Harry Dolphin

[+humanloofa]

I have a question. How could you be trespassing with permission? That would meen that anyone but the landowner should be fined for trespassing. I have gone after many caches that stated right on the cache page that it was posted no trespassing but they had the owners permission. Here is one that comes to mind.Clearly posted no trespassing but have permission to do it.

 

edited to add: What did you cache page say? Did it spell out that it located close to a road and no bushwacking was needed, coords of good place to park, the fact that the signs were there and owner permission was given?

Edited July 25, 2006 by humanloofa

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

No Trespassing laws obviously vary.

Dad once had someone sneak onto his property and they began nailling boards on one of his trees to build a deerstand. He heard the hammering and invistigated but they ran before he reached them. Upon calling to report the unwanted construction he was informed that unless the property is posted "No Trespassing" then people can literally do anything they want on your property and the law won't help you. However, to qualify as posted you only need one sign, and it can be placed in your front yard if you wish, to legally protect all of your property, even if you own thousands of acres.

Go figure that one.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I suspect the "Oh well" suggestion above will ultimately be the best approach - it doesn't pay to get too emotionally invested in a game piece!

 

On the whole issue of access to private, posted property, an easy solution is clarity - place your Dad's name and phone number in the cache description, tell cachers if they feel wary or are stopped by the cops or neighbors to feel free to call and verify permission. If Dad won't go for that it probably shouldn't be there.

 

Ed

[+briansnat]

I suspect the "Oh well" suggestion above will ultimately be the best approach - it doesn't pay to get too emotionally invested in a game piece!

 

On the whole issue of access to private, posted property, an easy solution is clarity - place your Dad's name and phone number in the cache description, tell cachers if they feel wary or are stopped by the cops or neighbors to feel free to call and verify permission. If Dad won't go for that it probably shouldn't be there.

 

Ed

 

I don't think many people would want their real name and phone number on a cache description regardless of the reason.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I suspect the "Oh well" suggestion above will ultimately be the best approach - it doesn't pay to get too emotionally invested in a game piece!

 

On the whole issue of access to private, posted property, an easy solution is clarity - place your Dad's name and phone number in the cache description, tell cachers if they feel wary or are stopped by the cops or neighbors to feel free to call and verify permission. If Dad won't go for that it probably shouldn't be there.

 

Ed

 

I don't think many people would want their real name and phone number on a cache description regardless of the reason.

 

Yep, guess that's why there are so few names and numbers in the telephone book!

[+crystalndave]

Thanks for all of your help. With the changes, my cache was published. I am now the proud owner of 3 caches with one on the way.. aww.. I will have pictures for you all later.... Thanks for your postive comments and good suggestions.. now.. on to my next cache... burried in the ground or strung up in a tree... no you wouldn't need a shovel, you would have to move a flat rock or something..... or maybe a 2x2 section of plywood with sod on top... he he he... on my own property.. with no posted signs for miles...

[+Renegade Knight]

I suspect the "Oh well" suggestion above will ultimately be the best approach - it doesn't pay to get too emotionally invested in a game piece!

 

On the whole issue of access to private, posted property, an easy solution is clarity - place your Dad's name and phone number in the cache description, tell cachers if they feel wary or are stopped by the cops or neighbors to feel free to call and verify permission. If Dad won't go for that it probably shouldn't be there.

 

Ed

 

I don't think many people would want their real name and phone number on a cache description regardless of the reason.

 

Yep, guess that's why there are so few names and numbers in the telephone book!

 

You pay extra to be removed. Plus the phone book is not a bathroom walll, a bumper sticker a cache, or a game piece. You could make an AL cache have a clue based on a certaian cacher down south's phone number or are you unlisted?

[+briansnat]

now.. on to my next cache... burried in the ground..

 

Better run that by your reviewer before you do too much work. Though its technically fine to bury a cache because its your own property, your reviewer might try to talk you out of it. Its not a good example and there is a good chance some newbie will come along, think its a great idea and try it in a park. For that reason they are discouraged (and of course not allowed at all if its not your own property).

[+crystalndave]

Never thought about the newbies.... Up in a tree it is.... is that ok? My next choice is hot gluing 300 sticks together to make a beaver dadgum that can be easily raised up in one piece..

[+crystalndave]

oh my.. that just spell corrected my beaver "dam".

[+gof1]

Glad to see you got that worked out.

I will be in the area for a week ending with the NY-GO picnic and will put this one on my list.

Will we see you there?

[+crystalndave]

At the picnic?? Yep.. I am bringing deviled eggs.. and something else which I have not decided on! Should be a good time, I can't wait to meet people who don't think I'm crazy... well at least they don't think I'm crazy for geocaching....

[+Quiggle]

now.. on to my next cache... burried in the ground..

Better run that by your reviewer before you do too much work. Though its technically fine to bury a cache because its your own property, your reviewer might try to talk you out of it. Its not a good example and there is a good chance some newbie will come along, think its a great idea and try it in a park. For that reason they are discouraged (and of course not allowed at all if its not your own property).

 

As a reviewer, I thank briansnat for giving that advice--it's very true.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I suspect the "Oh well" suggestion above will ultimately be the best approach - it doesn't pay to get too emotionally invested in a game piece!

 

On the whole issue of access to private, posted property, an easy solution is clarity - place your Dad's name and phone number in the cache description, tell cachers if they feel wary or are stopped by the cops or neighbors to feel free to call and verify permission. If Dad won't go for that it probably shouldn't be there.

 

Ed

 

I don't think many people would want their real name and phone number on a cache description regardless of the reason.

 

Yep, guess that's why there are so few names and numbers in the telephone book!

 

You pay extra to be removed. Plus the phone book is not a bathroom walll, a bumper sticker a cache, or a game piece. You could make an AL cache have a clue based on a certaian cacher down south's phone number or are you unlisted?

 

Unlisted? Man, I am all over the internet and have been since my first BBS account with The Well in 1978! Name, address, phone, resume, it's all out there, and there have been zero negative consequences but plenty of positive ones. As far as geocaching, I am listed on multiple websites as a phone-a-friend for cachers trying to find any of the caches I have found or who want company on the hunt.

 

As far as the "bathroom walls" line, I assume you to be joking - between Google searches and whitepages.com your info is on every PC in the world, and what they don't list plenty of other sites do! Unlisting your phone does not hide you.

 

I didn't make my comment in jest - I made a serious suggestion; put placement contact info on the cache page and you solve a whole lot of problems!

 

Owner info is supposed to be in/on every cache, so why not permission contact info as well?

 

I think contact info should be a requirement for every cache listing - oh, wait! The problem with that is most caches don't <b>have</b> permission! Ooops.

 

Ed

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I think contact info should be a requirement for every cache listing - oh, wait! The problem with that is most caches don't <b>have</b> permission! Ooops.

 

Ed

Oh yeah, and I'm sure that when you were a reviewer you didn't publish any that didn't have that info, right? Yeah, Pot meet Kettle, again.

[+PMaholm]

No Trespassing laws obviously vary.

Dad once had someone sneak onto his property and they began nailling boards on one of his trees to build a deerstand. He heard the hammering and invistigated but they ran before he reached them. Upon calling to report the unwanted construction he was informed that unless the property is posted "No Trespassing" then people can literally do anything they want on your property and the law won't help you. However, to qualify as posted you only need one sign, and it can be placed in your front yard if you wish, to legally protect all of your property, even if you own thousands of acres.

Go figure that one.

 

Our neighbors had the same problem, a bunch of drunken college students climbed their 8 foot privacy fence and proceded to party on their back deck. By the time the police arrived most of the partiers were gone. They were informed that unless you have posted no tresspassing AND have verbally expressed to the offender that they were tresspassing charges could not be filed. How stupid is this?

 

-PMaholm