What Geocachers Need To Know About Letterboxing

[+Reddgroom]

For you Newbies:

 

There is also a game that is similar to Geocaching called Letterboxing. Geocachers plant geocaches and look for them with precise GPS coordinates; Letterboxers plant letterboxes and search for them only with clues about the location or a description of the area.

 

Geocaches usually contain a log and some swag to trade, and maybe a pen or pencil.

Letterboxes generally contain a (ONE) unique (mostly hand-carved or custom made) rubber stamp, a journal to stamp in and maybe an inkpad or a pen.

 

Geocachers swap goodies out of their boxes, sign the log and sometimes post their find on the internet. Letterboxers DO NOT swap goodies in the box. They collect stamp impressions from all the boxes they have visited in their own personal journal and leave only stamped impressions from their personal stamp (mostly hand-carved or custom made) that they carry with them.

 

Since both Geocachers and Letterboxers like to visit the same kinds of places, and are always looking for similar hiding places and hidden boxes, it is very common for Geocachers to find letterboxes by mistake. (Despite the seeming accuracy of GPS) When a Geocacher finds a letterbox by mistake AND DOES NOT REALIZE IT, the Geocacher will very commonly take the unique, handcarved rubberstamp as a swag item and they leave a cheap dollar store trinket in it's place.

 

This destroys the letterbox because there is no longer a way to "login" to the box if you don't have the stamp. Once the stamp goes missing, the box-owner either needs to re-carve another stamp and move the box to a place where geocachers won't find it or they will end up disabling the box.

 

Letterboxers generally dislike geocachers because of the confusion and damage caused by errant un-informed geocachers. Handcarving stamps is pretty difficult & time consuming & these stamps can be pretty intricate.

 

Please if you ever find a "geocache" with a rubber stamp in it. DON'T TAKE THE STAMP!!!!! Look very carefully at the box and the log and see if it is labled as a geocache or a letterbox.

 

If it it not a geocache, consider it an extra find, Don't take anything or leave anything but feel free to write in the log and then return the box to it's hiding place. Then, you can keep searching the area for your geocache!

 

Thank you on behalf of the Letterboxers.

[+KoosKoos]

I once stumble onto a letterbox that was placed within 20' of a geocache (I'm not sure which was there first)...they were basically on either side of a pier.

 

When I opened it, I found a "found it" page description that it was a letterbox, how to log it, etc....very similar to what most geocachers place along with their logbooks.

 

I would think that any letterboxer that puts such a note in their box would avoid the confusion of a geocacher finding it and thinking the stamp was just a trade item.

 

I can appreciate your education - many geocachers have never heard of letterboxing - and I hope that both sides make the effort to learn and educate the others about their game!

[+Kacky]

I stumbled on a letterbox while searching for a cache and I never have been able to find it anywhere online. It looks like it was a school project but there were no instructions on what to do if you found it accidentally. I didn't take the stamp, but without instructions, how would the finder know? When I searched the internet, I did find a site that listed a different letterbox on the other side of the park from theirs.

[+the hermit crabs]

Letterboxers generally dislike geocachers because of the confusion and damage caused by errant un-informed geocachers.

There are uninformed people in both groups.

 

There's a cache near here that has been in place since 2003, and has had a long history of finders. A letterbox (with the same name as the geocache, although by a different hider) was placed about 100 feet from the cache in September of 2005.

 

I sat down and read both logbooks a month or so ago. Ever since the letterbox was placed, letterboxers have found the cache and have left notes in the logbook -- some just puzzled, but some clearly angry -- "I walked all this way for a stamp and there wasn't one! " etc. After a while, a letterboxer added a couple of rubber stamps in a ziplock to the geocache container, with a note that said "These are for letterboxing, not geocaching!" (The stamps were not at all similar to the one in the real letterbox.)

 

Interestingly, not a single cacher had accidentally found the letterbox since it was placed (or, at least, none had signed the book for it).

 

(When I found the letterbox, I followed the clues on the letterbox page; they brought me right to it. The letterboxers who found the cache were not following the clues correctly, or they never would have ended up on the side of the trail that the cache is on.)

 

So, anyway... it's not just geocachers who could use a little bit of education

[+briansnat]

A lot of confusion might be avoided if both geocaches and letterboxes were clearly marked as such. I've found some letterboxes near caches and few had any information sheet explaining what they were. There are several that are near my caches and I inserted a piece of paper in some saying "This is not the geocache. This is a letterbox, do not remove the stamp. If you are searching for the geocache, keep looking".

Edited July 23, 2006 by briansnat

[+4leafclover]

I think that since letterboxes have been around for far longer than geocaching (If I am not mistaken, in dates back to the 1800's), many letterboxers would never have felt the need to explain what it was.

 

But now that there is a very similar sport, and specifically one that puts letterboxes in "danger" of having the stamp removed, it is time for letterboxers to devise a type of "if you find this" sheet.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

Perhaps creating more caches in the "geocaching-letterbox hybrid" category would help to educate. I know these are few and far between because even here in the NYC metro area I know of only 2 of them, "Larchmont Lark" near me which I have found and another a good 30-40 miles north (almost Upstate) near Bear Mountain (haven't gone to).

 

In fact, "Larchmont Lark" was formed because the hider, who loved the gorgeous shoreline beauty of the park, discovered a letterbox near where he was going to hide his cache and decided to help avoid this issue to contact the letterbox owner and see if he/she would be interested in doing a hybrid to avoid just these issues.

Edited July 23, 2006 by HaLiJuSaPa

[+welch]

I think that since letterboxes have been around for far longer than geocaching (If I am not mistaken, in dates back to the 1800's), many letterboxers would never have felt the need to explain what it was.

 

But now that there is a very similar sport, and specifically one that puts letterboxes in "danger" of having the stamp removed, it is time for letterboxers to devise a type of "if you find this" sheet.

I think there are already some of those 'this is a letterbox' letters out there. Its just that like geocachers, not everyone knows about them, and certainly not everyone uses them. So we end up with letterboxes (and geocaches) that have no inside explantions and no labels .

[+Prime Suspect]

I think that since letterboxes have been around for far longer than geocaching (If I am not mistaken, in dates back to the 1800's), many letterboxers would never have felt the need to explain what it was.

In the UK, yes. In North America, it didn't really get started until about 8 years ago, just a couple of years ahead of geocaching.

[+Cooties!]

I love the idea of Letterboxing. Although I haven't found one yet, recording a unique stamp that someone has taken a lot of time to make is (imo) better than most of the "treasure" found in geocaches.

My girlfriend and I will be heading to Wales in August, and I plan to have a stamp ready. I'm also going to buy an acid-free notebook (from a local bookstore) to record our finds in. From the sound of this thread, maybe I should add the Letterboxing Info-sheet to my caching kit?

[Mr.Yuck]

Perhaps creating more caches in the "geocaching-letterbox hybrid" category would help to educate. I know these are few and far between because even here in the NYC metro area I know of only 2 of them, "Larchmont Lark" near me which I have found and another a good 30-40 miles north (almost Upstate) near Bear Mountain (haven't gone to).

 

In fact, "Larchmont Lark" was formed because the hider, who loved the gorgeous shoreline beauty of the park, discovered a letterbox near where he was going to hide his cache and decided to help avoid this issue to contact the letterbox owner and see if he/she would be interested in doing a hybrid to avoid just these issues.

 

There is an unusually high number of Letterbox Hybrids in my area. If you don't believe me, look at my profile, I have 13 of them But I have to say, generally they have not been anything like what is described in the gc.com listing of cache types. None of them were ever cross-listed on letterboxing.com or atlasquest.com, none of the cache placers (as far as I know) has ever even found a letterbox. And only one of these caches (in Ontario, Canada), was found by following clues similiar to a "real" letterbox.

 

As someone else said, the overwhelming majority of geocachers have never heard of letterboxing. In general "letterbox stash notes" should always be included (which we see do exist, but are often not used), or the container marked externally as a letterbox.

 

I did once accidently find a interstate rest stop letterbox that was clearly marked "This is not a geocache"

[+art begotti]

i have never letterboxed before, but i know the basics of it, and i know how to distinguish letterboxes from geocaches. i have, on a couple of occasions, gone to the letterboxing website, and considered starting letterboxing, as another hobby. (i haven't yet.) would i be kicked out of the geocaching community for that? it seems like the rivalry between letterboxers and geocachers is so fierce, there is no good way to make a compromise.

[+Lion Hearted]

I too much prefer the idea of a stamp over some dollar-store swag. The stamp is personal and I can stamp it in my journal where I will always have a record of it. I'm just getting started in geocaching by way of letterboxing. There were only two letterboxes in my area but hundreds of caches. When I get to the point where I start creating my own caches I plan on doing mostly letterbox hybrids and would sure like other geocachers to do the same.

[+AuntieWeasel]

would i be kicked out of the geocaching community for that? it seems like the rivalry between letterboxers and geocachers is so fierce, there is no good way to make a compromise.

Ummm...no. In my own personal experience, all the snot flies in one direction, from letterboxers to geocachers. I can understand the frustration with the loss of stamps, but surely letterboxes are found (and sometimes ruined) by non-players other than cachers. Putting a note increases the likelihood any non-player will leave the box untouched.

 

I have to repost my favorite cache log here:

 

 

My own cache. There used to be a letterbox nearby. The absolute best was the letterboxer who emailed to tell me she'd taken my Travel Bug because I'd obviously left it in a letterbox by mistake. How she could think that, I do not know. It was my TB that I'd put in my cache that same day, and there certainly isn't a stamp in my cache. A TB wouldn't have fit in the letterbox, which was a shabby little pill bottle (surely an anomaly; it was both small and manky).

 

Oh, yeah. It was clearly marked as a TB commemorating my birthday. Which she nicked on my birthday. Nice, huh?

[+Jhwk]

But some cachers and letterboxers love both sports, and so you will find a hybrid cache/letterbox out in the wild. I found my first letterbox cache here this weekend during a five state caching tour I planned.

 

Love all the way around, and no, I didn't take the stampy thing, but I did stamp my GPSr.

[Mr.Yuck]

would i be kicked out of the geocaching community for that? it seems like the rivalry between letterboxers and geocachers is so fierce, there is no good way to make a compromise.

Ummm...no. In my own personal experience, all the snot flies in one direction, from letterboxers to geocachers. I can understand the frustration with the loss of stamps, but surely letterboxes are found (and sometimes ruined) by non-players other than cachers. Putting a note increases the likelihood any non-player will leave the box untouched.

 

The "snot flies in one direction"? A classic line, I like it. Yes, I agree though. There are many more of "us" than there are of "them". Another personal memory, a very hostile letterboxer took a local geocache (.30 cal ammo box) hostage. Problem is, the freaking geocache was there first! It was the only hide listed on letterboxing.org by that user, and a very prominent letterboxer, who was also a casual geocacher, had never heard of them. I never did find out how that situation ended up

[+art begotti]

i've taken only one stamp from a geocache container before, and yes, i know it was a geocache, not a letterbox because it was clearly marked on the outside that this was a geocache. (and it was an identical container to another similar geocacher in a series of two.)

 

in the mistaken-identity caches you guys have had, were the geocaches marked as geocaches externally? maybe a letterboxer would not even open a geocache if they knew beforehand that it wasn't one, then they'd be off searching elsewhere.

[+emb021]

 

I would think that any letterboxer that puts such a note in their box would avoid the confusion of a geocacher finding it and thinking the stamp was just a trade item.

 

 

(FYI- I both GC & LB. I've done both for about the same amount of time, LBing earlier as I didn't have a GPSr. Am up to over 100 caches and about 35 letterboxes)

 

My experience has been that about every letterbox I've found has clearly stated on the outside that it is a letterbox (not trash, please don't throw away, etc). Some have the explanatory note in it.

 

Sadly, my experience with geocaches is that only about half of the caches I have found have clearly stated on the outside they are a geocache. Only some have had an explanatory note in them.

 

I know the more or less 'official' book on geocaching mentions letterboxing, and I think there is a link to letterboxing from geocaching.com.

 

I'd have to agree with some of the other posts that most of vitriol seems to come from the LBers toward geocaching. There are some hard feelings from some LBers toward Jeremy & geocaching.com. (won't go into it) And there were some heated arguements on the LB Yahoo Group about adding features to LBNA.org similiar to geocaching.com about a year ago. Most didn't want them.

 

Me, I do both. If I can go to a location and get both GCs & LBs, to me, that's just a bonus. I am currently working on a set of GC, all of which I hope to make GC-LB hybrids.

 

BTW, the two main LBing sites in the US are letterboxing.org and atlasquest.com. Most are on letterboxing and most are duplicated on atlasquest, but there are a few on only one of the 2 sites, and I hear there are other letterboxes that aren't on either.

Edited July 24, 2006 by emb021

[Mr.Yuck]

 

I would think that any letterboxer that puts such a note in their box would avoid the confusion of a geocacher finding it and thinking the stamp was just a trade item.

 

 

(FYI- I both GC & LB. I've done both for about the same amount of time, LBing earlier as I didn't have a GPSr. Am up to over 100 caches and about 35 letterboxes)

 

My experience has been that about every letterbox I've found has clearly stated on the outside that it is a letterbox (not trash, please don't throw away, etc). Some have the explanatory note in it.

 

Sadly, my experience with geocaches is that only about half of the caches I have found have clearly stated on the outside they are a geocache. Only some have had an explanatory note in them.

 

I know the more or less 'official' book on geocaching mentions letterboxing, and I think there is a link to letterboxing from geocaching.com.

 

I'd have to agree with some of the other posts that most of vitriol seems to come from the LBers toward geocaching. There are some hard feelings from some LBers toward Jeremy & geocaching.com. (won't go into it) And there were some heated arguements on the LB Yahoo Group about adding features to LBNA.org similiar to geocaching.com about a year ago. Most didn't want them.

 

Me, I do both. If I can go to a location and get both GCs & LBs, to me, that's just a bonus. I am currently working on a set of GC, all of which I hope to make GC-LB hybrids.

 

BTW, the two main LBing sites in the US are letterboxing.org and atlasquest.com. Most are on letterboxing and most are duplicated on atlasquest, but there are a few on only one of the 2 sites, and I hear there are other letterboxes that aren't on either.

 

I'd agree letterboxers are better at marking the container externally. Way too many ammo boxes out there still with military markings on them, and not labeled as a geocache externally.

 

Yes, atlasquest.com is pretty nice. It has a much more "geocaching type" feel to it, and even keeps stats. I'll bet some of the old school letterboxers are up in arms!!! It's probably their equivalent of a lame micro thread over on their yahoo group.

 

Don't know how the "competition" between the letterboxing sites is, but a cache in my area was placed a few months ago, and people immediately started finding letterboxes in the park. Turns out there are six LB's in the park, and no one could find them online, before I stepped in and figured out they were listed on atlasquest only and not on Letterboxing.org

Edited July 24, 2006 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Harry Dolphin]

The temperature in Maine was 96º. The humidity something similar. We'd done four or five caches, and about the same number of benchmarks. It was wicked hot. My sister suggested doing some caches in the Cathance River Preserve in Topsham. And we set out with a liter of water. The first stage was a rather difficult hide, so we thought, with sweat dripping, and black flies buzzing about. We finally found it, and set off for the second stage. It was wicked hot out, but by the rapids it was a bit cooler. The second stage was a tough hide, as well. Between two GPSes, there was still considerable signal bounce. We searched and searched. Twenty minutes, I yelled "I Found It!". The others gathered near. Alas, it was a Letterbox. And we didn't have our stamps with us. Rehid the Letterbox, and continued searching. Finally we found it, and skedaddled back up the trail. Moral of the story? Geocachers make more difficult hides than Letterboxers!

In 860-some-odd geocaching finds, I've found four letter boxes. At the 9/11 Memorial, the geocache was hidden away from the memorial, the letter box was inside the opening in the steel beam.

I am aware of letterboxing, and return them to their hiding place (without any snide comments about trying to fool me with a letterbox where a geocache should be hidden.) Maybe someday, I'll start carrying my stamp and inkpad with me, just in case.

[+PastorDIC]

I'm considering having a multipurpose stamp made that would work for both Letterboxing and Geocaching. I could then add additional handwritten information on the geocaching log.

[+emb021]

 

I'd agree letterboxers are better at marking the container externally. Way too many ammo boxes out there still with military markings on them, and not labeled as a geocache externally.

 

Its not just ammo boxes that are un labeled. I see to many unlabeled green lock-n-locks out there. Ok, so you can't spring for one the many geocache labels out there. At least use a black sharpie or something!

 

Yes, atlasquest.com is pretty nice. It has a much more "geocaching type" feel to it, and even keeps stats. I'll bet some of the old school letterboxers are up in arms!!! It's probably their equivalent of a lame micro thread over on their yahoo group.

 

Actually, letterboxing.org also does stats, too.

 

What got a lot of the 'old school letterboxers' up in arms was the idea of having logs on-line that others could read, uploading of pictures, etc. They though that people would 'give away' the locations of the LBs, would upload pictures showing the location, etc.

 

I thought it was bull because I don't see this on geocaching, and there are a lot more geocachers. I've found some logs helpful (some people are just poor hiders, give bad coords, and some info helps), but I haven't see any that 'gave it all away'.

 

I find the tracking of Hitchhickers (LBing's TB) to be primitive at best...

 

There also seems to be an attitude of 'elitism' amoung some LBers regarding the quality of your stamps (both in your boxes and your personal one). Next comes your hiding and clues quality. And the low/none-tech attitude is annoying. Many don't bother to log there finds on-line, which is a pain for others trying to find a box. (you too often don't know its missing until you spend your time looking and finally give up, then get some near useless response from the owner...)

[+4leafclover]

I love the idea of Letterboxing. Although I haven't found one yet, recording a unique stamp that someone has taken a lot of time to make is (imo) better than most of the "treasure" found in geocaches.

My girlfriend and I will be heading to Wales in August, and I plan to have a stamp ready. I'm also going to buy an acid-free notebook (from a local bookstore) to record our finds in. From the sound of this thread, maybe I should add the Letterboxing Info-sheet to my caching kit?

 

This sounds like an excellent idea.

[+Bear Paughs]

There also seems to be an attitude of 'elitism' amoung some LBers regarding the quality of your stamps (both in your boxes and your personal one).

 

We started as letterboxers but really hated this attitude. I am crafty in a lot of different ways, but I am completely unable to design and handcarve a stamp. Therefore my finds were "less than" and it's very discouraging when your effort to locate something is crapped upon because the stamp you made in the log book wasn't deemed worthy. Thankfully we found geocaching and have had a thousand times the fun we did with letterboxing.

[+hairball45]

I had seen references to letterboxing somewhere , here in the forums or on GC.com or whatever and thought maybe I'd take a swing at it. Most of the boxes near here seem to be missing or removed, but I need something having exhausted all the nearby caches...... Anyway, the idea that I might take heat for having an unimpressive stamp strikes me as about as wonderful as a cacher ranking on my admittedly crabbed handwriting in a logbook. Standing in the woods swatting mosquitoes and using a tired looking piece of gladware for a desk is not conducive to spencerian excellence. In the meantime, I'm always grateful to the fellow cacher who went out into the woods or the park or Walmart parking lot and placed that tired looking piece of gladware for my geocaching pleasure. I guess I'll just continue to follow the digital arrow.

I really enjoy this hobby. There is little or no investment past a GPS and a trip to the dollar store. Sure you can spend hundreds of dollars on the gear, and give away geo-coins at ten bucks a pop, but no one makes fun of you if you don't. I've been involved in other hobbies where you were judged severely if you were unable to devote an entire room to the hobby, didn't have equipment worth $30,000, etc.

Sure do love them hunts.

hairball

Edited July 27, 2006 by hairball45

[+gunpowder]

Now I am not happy.

 

I am a director of a non-profit park and have had geocaches here for 3-4 years. Our rules are easy. Ask before you place so I can keep an eye on them. I also can help in placement as 1/2 the property floods in the spring many years.

 

We have 6 currently here on property. Two from a board member, three of a friends and one from a person who never asked and has moved out of state. All are being archieved so I can redo the property with more caches since it has been a few years and the space can be better utilized to increas the number of caches.

 

I just searched the letterboxing site and discovered one here on the park and one on a property around the corner that is being donated to the park. I already planned a cache for there.

 

Gonna have to figure out who it is and have an understanding.

[+Colorado Cacher]

ALL letterboxes I have gone out and found, I have only ever stamped my stamp in it, dated the log, and left. Never have I damaged, or stolen any like Jelybean seems to think I have.

[+AuntieWeasel]

I just searched the letterboxing site and discovered one here on the park and one on a property around the corner that is being donated to the park. I already planned a cache for there.

That's how my cache ended up in the same hollow tree as a letterbox.

 

Because the park is owned and managed by a private company, I felt I needed explicit permission. So I scoped out my hide first, wrote to park management, described exactly where I was going to put it, and asked permission for the hide. Because it's a big organization, it was six weeks before the question made it up high enough and the okay made it down to me. When I went to make the placement, I discovered a letterbox had been placed in my spot during those six weeks.

 

I couldn't put my cache somewhere else, because I'd described the hide to the park. I wrote to the hider to explain my dilemma, without response (I know now the letterboxing site hiccuped and she never got the email). If I'd explained the situation to the park, I assume they would have biffed the letterbox. So, in the end, the only thing I could think to do is place it as planned.

 

That's partly why the friction with letterboxers so hacked me off. I had shielded the letterboxer who hadn't asked permission, and all I got for it was grief from the letterboxing community.

[eagleeyes53]

I love the idea of Letterboxing. Although I haven't found one yet, recording a unique stamp that someone has taken a lot of time to make is (imo) better than most of the "treasure" found in geocaches.

My girlfriend and I will be heading to Wales in August, and I plan to have a stamp ready. I'm also going to buy an acid-free notebook (from a local bookstore) to record our finds in. From the sound of this thread, maybe I should add the Letterboxing Info-sheet to my caching kit?

 

Make sure you bring some sturdy walking boots and sticks! Some of the placements I have seen here are pretty rough terrain LOL I am new to this and can't wait to explore some of our great hiding places. Have fun in Wales.

[MapheadMike]

I couldn't put my cache somewhere else, because I'd described the hide to the park. I wrote to the hider to explain my dilemma, without response (I know now the letterboxing site hiccuped and she never got the email). If I'd explained the situation to the park, I assume they would have biffed the letterbox. So, in the end, the only thing I could think to do is place it as planned.

 

That's partly why the friction with letterboxers so hacked me off. I had shielded the letterboxer who hadn't asked permission, and all I got for it was grief from the letterboxing community.

There are four letterboxes still listed in that park that are older than the one you hijacked. It only took a couple minutes of surfing to find other letterboxes and geocaches planted in other Trustee parks before then as well.

 

"Adequate permission" is debated from time to time, but seeing four letterboxes in a public (non-governmental, but still public) park and without a contrary policy statement implies adequate permission to me. I suspect that the letterboxer you poached on would agree.

 

I disagree that you needed to go through a drawn out process of written permission. I disagree that the letterboxers needed shielding. I disagree that the process of getting written permission excuses your unsportsmanlike act of hijacking the letterbox location. I quite sure that if a letterboxer had hijacked one of your locations, you'd have been as equally upset as they were.

[+AuntieWeasel]

The Trustees of Reservations is a private land management organization. They were given management of that property by the town of Norwood a year earlier. They manage thousands of acres of excellent property in Massachusetts. I handled the hide the way I did because it struck me as an opportunity to make inroads or make enemies, and I preferred to do the former. TToR has since developed an explicitly pro-geocaching policy. I certainly can't take credit for that, but...every little bit, and all that.

 

You used some pretty inflammatory words there, pardner. I was tempted to do the same. Then I realized...I have no idea who you are and you mean nothing to me. So, you know. Whatever.

[MapheadMike]

Ummm...no. In my own personal experience, all the snot flies in one direction, from letterboxers to geocachers. I can understand the frustration with the loss of stamps, but surely letterboxes are found (and sometimes ruined) by non-players other than cachers. Putting a note increases the likelihood any non-player will leave the box untouched.

 

I have to repost my favorite cache log here:

 

 

My own cache. There used to be a letterbox nearby. The absolute best was the letterboxer who emailed to tell me she'd taken my Travel Bug because I'd obviously left it in a letterbox by mistake. How she could think that, I do not know. It was my TB that I'd put in my cache that same day, and there certainly isn't a stamp in my cache. A TB wouldn't have fit in the letterbox, which was a shabby little pill bottle (surely an anomaly; it was both small and manky).

 

Oh, yeah. It was clearly marked as a TB commemorating my birthday. Which she nicked on my birthday. Nice, huh?

AW, you are the one complaining about letterboxers' attitude. You are the one who said that all the snot flies from letterboxers to geocachers. Would you not agree that hijacking a letterbox location without justification at least constitutes snot flying from a geocacher to letterboxers?

 

If you don't want people to post about your unsportsmanlike actions, don't commit any and don't brag about them in a public forum. Ignoring people who call you out for being wrong doesn't change the fact that you were wrong. One of the purposes of this forum is discussing how geocaching should be played. Calling out bad examples of game play, especially when the player is bragging about what they did in the forum, is a topic that I'm not going to stop typing about.

 

You earned a measure of respect a few weeks ago by cleaning up some geo-litter in your region. I hope you can discuss your actions in Bird Park in a manner that doesn't lose that same respect.

 

You mentioned "pretty inflammatory words" in your post. Please identify them for me. I do wish to keep this discussion to your actions at Bird Park, and how harmful they are to geocaching as a whole, and not go beyond that.

[+AuntieWeasel]

AW, you are the one complaining about letterboxers' attitude. You are the one who said that all the snot flies from letterboxers to geocachers. Would you not agree that hijacking a letterbox location without justification at least constitutes snot flying from a geocacher to letterboxers?

I do not agree that "hijacking a letterbox location without justification" is an accurate description of what I did. I explained the circumstances: I was working with management of that park to arrange the hide, I had already given them the hide location. The letterbox appeared during negotiation. How was I to wriggle out of that one without either making geocachers look like nutbags, or revealing the presence of the letterbox? And if they made me jump through hoops, what do you think they would have done with that letterbox?

 

When I first did research on that hide, I assumed the land belonged to the city. Had that been true, I wouldn't have written for permission. When I discovered it had recently been deeded to a private company, I changed my mind.

 

You may not think explicit permission is required, but the owner of the property, the Trustees of Reservations, disagrees with you. Again, we have since managed to make good friends of the Trustees. They hosted a giant geocaching tournament across many of their properties last year. I'm not claiming credit for that, but I know my request to place a cache was forwarded up the chain of command (that's why it took so long; it went through a lot of inboxes). It didn't hurt.

 

You mentioned "pretty inflammatory words" in your post. Please identify them for me. I do wish to keep this discussion to your actions at Bird Park, and how harmful they are to geocaching as a whole, and not go beyond that.

"Poach," "hijack" and "unsportsmanlike."

 

I tried to get in touch with the letterboxer. I described my dilemma in the forums and asked for advice. I kept close watch on both my cache and the letterbox. I've kept in touch with Park management. I am confident that I did the right thing in a tough spot. How on earth you think anything I did will hurt the sport of geocaching is quite beyond me.

[+AuntieWeasel]

AND, while I'm on the subject, I have to assume that "letterbox" was some kind of aberration for the hobby: it was...not very nice. I found it purely by accident. It was a large prescription pill bottle. In it, several leaves of stiff paper had been stapled together and bent into a cylinder around the stamp. It was usually full of water when I checked it. And, yes, I emptied it and kept an eye on it. By the time the owner archived it, the whole thing was a moldy, pulpy mess.

 

Not that it's relevant to the discussion, but I was just shocked that a hobby having to do, at least on some level, with aesthetics would be so...you know. Unaesthetic.

[+briansnat]

Putting on moderator's hat:

 

The point of this thread is to discuss ways geocachers and letterboxers can avoid stepping on each other's toes, not Auntie Weasel's cache placement. Please take that conversation offline.

 

[+ladyfox]

I hate to say it, but I haven't been to the forums often enough to keep up. I have to say however, I enjoy letterboxing as well as geocaching. I just finished carving my first stamp and spent a couple hours finding my first letterbox. It was a multi- with 7 caches available, 2 had hitchhiker stamps in them. However, of the 7, I only found 4, and the missing three were in areas I would consider as a geocacher, to be in areas with too much traffic and they seemed to be in the open too much. I sent an email off to the owner to be sure I didn't just miss them. There doesn't seem to be as many letter boxes out there as geocaches, so I thought it would be fairly easy to combine the two, but I like the fact that they are separate. A posting once in a while on both of their home pages as well as faq's page, reminding both letterboxers and geocachers of the others existance and purpose, may help too.

[MapheadMike]

Putting on moderator's hat:

The point of this thread is to discuss ways geocachers and letterboxers can avoid stepping on each other's toes, not Auntie Weasel's cache placement. Please take that conversation offline.

Brian,

 

I disagree with your interpretation. If the point of the thread is to discuss ways that geocachers and letterboxers can avoid stepping on each other's toes, then challenging a cacher who is bragging about hijacking a letterbox location is not only relevant, it's neccesary.

 

You may not think explicit permission is required, but the owner of the property, the Trustees of Reservations, disagrees with you.

Auntie said she read an article that mentioned that the managing authority "liked to be asked" about geocaching. She didn't say it was a POLICY. It's possible that the letterboxer didn't read this article and wasn't aware that they "would like to be asked" (BTW, if you ask the managing authority of 1,000 parks about geocaching, I bet 999 would say "they would like to be asked").

 

In this case AW gave the park the courtesy of asking and because of that, someone beat her to the spot. I think if a geocache had appeared there instead and there was no policy REQUIRING permission, the attitude of a lot of people would have been "thats what you get for asking".

I searched and I haven't found anything that contradicts Brian from that earlier thread. Do you have a link to information that contradicts this now? The fact that there were (and still are) geocaches and letterboxes on Trustees land that predates your permission effort (a fact that you excluded when you sought advice in that earlier thread) speaks to the fact that permission in some form existed before you got started. The letterboxer had exactly as much permission as you did when you took her spot. The length of your odyssey of making contacts doesn't change that, and it doesn't justify what you did.

How on earth you think anything I did will hurt the sport of geocaching is quite beyond me.

Taking a letterbox location in the manner that you did shows an incredible lack of respect for other park users. That's a reputation that geocaching can do without.

 

I believe that geocaching is fortunate that the letterboxers limited their protests to the logbooks and forums. They could have protested your lack of respect and fair play to the Trustees management, and who knows where that would have led.

 

I have to assume that "letterbox" was some kind of aberration for the hobby

Moldy geocaches are an aberration too, but they're out there. Trying to help with the condition of that letterbox is a good thing, and so was the geo-litter run that you made a couple of weeks ago. But your good deeds do not excuse your blatant foul. If they did, I wouldn't press this discussion.

[+AuntieWeasel]

The fact that there were (and still are) geocaches and letterboxes on Trustees land that predates your permission effort (a fact that you excluded when you sought advice in that earlier thread) speaks to the fact that permission in some form existed before you got started.

No it doesn't. Caches (and, I assume, letterboxes) are hidden all the time when they shouldn't be, or when permission is a gray area. If the Trustees were on record that they like to be notified, what possible motive would I have to ignore that? And, after the fact, we developed an especially chummy relationship with them.

 

The letterboxer had exactly as much permission as you did when you took her spot.

No she didn't. She didn't have any permission at all. Since the park manager (who lives on the property) knew exactly where my hide was going, and spent six weeks getting permission for it to go there, don't you think he would have mentioned he had breezily authorized a letterbox in that exact spot sometime in the middle of our negotiations?

 

I believe that geocaching is fortunate that the letterboxers limited their protests to the logbooks and forums. They could have protested your lack of respect and fair play to the Trustees management, and who knows where that would have led.

It would likely have led to the removal of the letterboxes.

 

Look, when I finally managed to get hold to the hider (as she was archiving her letterbox), she was quite cordial about it. We exchanged friendly emails. She didn't seem to consider it a foul.

 

I'm mystified why you would. You sound, frankly, increasingly irrational on the subject.

[+Reddgroom]

As the person who started this thread, I'd like to chime in on the purpose of it:

 

Many geocachers are not aware that there is another similar activity called Letterboxing. I intended to use this thread as a non-hostile, non-critical, educational posting where geocachers could find out what Letterboxing is. I never intended for it to be a place where they could actually witness the kinds of debates & criticism that exist out there in cyber-land. I have my own opinions and criticisms of both sides, but felt that here in the "getting started" area, a neutral educational posting would be more appropriate. However, once started, threads tend to go where they will!

 

If you'd like to respect the original intent of this post, please take your personal conversations & comments to another topic or a private arena. I'm sure you'll find plenty of room for debate out in the other forums.

 

Thank you!

 

ReddGroom

[+Markwell]

Taking a letterbox location in the manner that you did shows an incredible lack of respect for other park users. That's a reputation that geocaching can do without.

To bring this back on topic then....

 

As a Geocacher, if I'm willing to work with letterboxers and not "step on their toes" by taking a location in which a letterbox is hidden, how am I supposed to know where they are?

 

Back about 18 months ago, I went searching for a cache that was an older geocache - long gone. While romping through the woods, having a great time, I spotted this:

click to enlarge

It was near the site of a cache. I logged on to Letterboxing.org and found the letterbox, tried to contact the owner, and nothing.

 

But the point is that had I been trying to PLACE a cache there, there's no possible way I could have KNOWN about the letterbox.

 

Right?

[+AuntieWeasel]

My original thread about the Trustees: here.

 

The discussion about my hide here.

 

The thread about the geocaching tournament sponsored by the Trustees here.

 

Anyone interested can make up his or her own mind. I imagine that's a very small group. And probably does not include me.

 

 

Edited to add: sorry! It took me a while to find those threads, and the other replies were added before I hit Send. Sounds like the story of my life, don't it?

Edited August 1, 2006 by AuntieWeasel

[MapheadMike]

But the point is that had I been trying to PLACE a cache there, there's no possible way I could have KNOWN about the letterbox.

 

Right?

You learned about the letterbox when you found it and took the photograph. In this case, the geocacher learned of the letterbox when she found it in the field and she still placed her geocache on top of it. Literally on top. Fair play suggests that if you find a letterbox (listed letterbox, or unlisted letterbox, or a terracache, or a navicache) in one tree, you would select a different tree to hide your geocache. The fact that this geocacher failed to do that is the basis of the conflict. The fact that she ridicules letterboxers for objecting in her log book and the fact that she continues to try to justify her actions is the reason this discussion has been prolonged.

[+AuntieWeasel]

You learned about the letterbox when you found it and took the photograph. In this case, the geocacher learned of the letterbox when she found it in the field and she still placed her geocache on top of it. Literally on top. Fair play suggests that if you find a letterbox (listed letterbox, or unlisted letterbox, or a terracache, or a navicache) in one tree, you would select a different tree to hide your geocache. The fact that this geocacher failed to do that is the basis of the conflict. The fact that she ridicules letterboxers for objecting in her log book and the fact that she continues to try to justify her actions is the reason this discussion has been prolonged.

 

Look, follow the links. I handled it exactly the way Jeremy suggested. Why don't you go harass him for a while?

[CoyoteRed]

I find it odd that Jeremy would advocate sharing a spot when he doesn't allow geocaches to share spots or even close proximity. Heck, used to you couldn't even have a virtual stage of a cache too close to another cache.

 

Two, I would not have poached the spot. I would have told the management I had changed my mind and wanted to place my cache somewhere else.

 

As for a letterboxer jumping in there as you were getting permission, the fact it was a letterbox has nothing to do with the issue. It happens with other cachers, as well. If the reviewer doesn't know about any permission issues, then there's no reason to deny the approval on that account.

 

Knowing the two hobbies don't exactly mesh I think creating a confusing situation, intentionally or not, is not good for either hobby.

[Jeremy]

You learned about the letterbox when you found it and took the photograph. In this case, the geocacher learned of the letterbox when she found it in the field and she still placed her geocache on top of it. Literally on top. Fair play suggests that if you find a letterbox (listed letterbox, or unlisted letterbox, or a terracache, or a navicache) in one tree, you would select a different tree to hide your geocache. The fact that this geocacher failed to do that is the basis of the conflict. The fact that she ridicules letterboxers for objecting in her log book and the fact that she continues to try to justify her actions is the reason this discussion has been prolonged.

 

Look, follow the links. I handled it exactly the way Jeremy suggested. Why don't you go harass him for a while?

 

Yeah. Harrass me. AuntieWeasel did the right thing, IMO. The letterboxer did not.

 

Actually IMO sharing the exact spot can make a lot more sense between the two activities. At least that reduces confusion when the letterbox is found at location a and geocache is at location b.

 

Geocaching.com assumes you have permission. If you don't you should expect the consequences from the park/individual/company/etc. that manages the land.

[+El Diablo]

I find it odd that Jeremy would advocate sharing a spot when he doesn't allow geocaches to share spots or even close proximity. Heck, used to you couldn't even have a virtual stage of a cache too close to another cache.

 

 

Well GC dosen't control Letterboxing. Therefore they can't control caches being placed in the same close proximity. The point in not allowing caches too close to one another is to prevent accidental or confusing finds.

 

Personally I think it's a good rule. For those that don't....there are alternative listing sites that don't care where, how, or why you place a cache.

 

El Diablo

[+AuntieWeasel]

Two, I would not have poached the spot. I would have told the management I had changed my mind and wanted to place my cache somewhere else.

I went back to the park twice trying to find a spot I could plausibly say was a better hide. After all the grief I went through getting permission, "hey, you know what? I changed my mind" would have made me (and, by extension, geocachers) look pretty flaky, unless the new hiding spot was demonstrably better. The original location was far and away the best I could find (which is, of course, why somebody picked it for a letterbox).

 

This is likely a topic on which reasonable people can disagree, so can we dispense with ugly words like "poach"? I had picked that spot weeks before the letterboxer; do you really think she would have checked gc.com to see if there was a cache there? Mine rested on a shelf up in the tree, hers was buried under leaves in the bottom. In truth, most people didn't stumble across both, and likely she wouldn't have, either.

 

Who placed first was luck and timing. Who tried to forge long-term friendly relationships with a large regional land-management corporation is not.

 

 

Edit: my spelling is slipping. A sure sign the continued questioning of my integrity over an issue I agonized about is beginning to affect my prose. Next stop: testing the limits of the language filter.

Edited August 2, 2006 by AuntieWeasel

[+briansnat]

Since my request to keep this thread on topic and Markwell's attempt to get it back on track have failed its time to close this down.