Giving Them The Cache Early

[+art begotti]

unfortunately, all is said and done. i can't change what's already happened at this point. but, i'd like to call this to attention, so that others (or myself) might have some insight on what to do next time.

 

this past week, i placed a geocache in honor of a friend who was hitting 1000 finds. i placed it last saturday, with the request of it not being published until after the friend actually hit 1000. on wednesday, the milestone occurred, and so i handed him a print-out of the cache placed in honor of him. with me alongside him, he found the cache (his 1001). that night, i went home and told the approvers it was okay to publish the cache. sometime during late wednesday night/early thursday morning, the cache was published. unfortunately, both him and i had already gone to sleep, so it wasn't logged as a find until later.

 

we have some cachers in our area who are usually in competition for ftf's. last night, i had the pleasure(?) of reading the log of someone who woke up at 6:45, saw the cache pop up, and went for it... only to find it had already been found. i felt kinda guilty about it, so i sent a letter of apology to the cacher, explaining how the whole situation went down.

 

my whole dilemma is this... should i have let the honoree find the cache before it was published? or should i have let it been a free-for-all for all interested? (for the record, i don't think the honoree would have waken up at 6:45 for the life of him. ) in my mind, at least (and this could be a totally wrong way of thinking), if a cache is to honor a person, they should get first dibs... or am i way off?

[+miss_butterfly]

I think what you did for the honouree was a great thing

 

I guess it all depends on the honouree though, i can see some self-less person would say when they found the cache, "thank you so much for setting this cache, and it's great to find it first, but i would like others to have a chance at getting a FTF", where as some would gladly bag the FT (neither is wrong i think).

 

if that was me, with hindsight, i would've put it in the description about the honouree been given the first chance to find is as it is in honour of that person, at least that way, you can mention it before it is published AND make sure others understand the situation.

 

for now though, don't worry about it, no one was harmed in the process!

[+Criminal]

If you place a cache, the idea is that it will be available for the entire community to find (not counting MOCs). While it may be poor form to give a buddy preferential consideration on a new hide, it really doesn’t matter much since FTF isn’t tracked in your stats. The worse that can happen is a few sensitive cachers might be miffed.

[+Stunod]

The "milestone" caches placed in this area all use your method. The honoree is notified pre-listing and gets to find it first. Never heard anyone complain about it.

 

And if the FTF-hounds want to run out and be the first to find it after listing they still have something to pat themselves on the back about.

[+Mudfrog]

The "milestone" caches placed in this area all use your method. The honoree is notified pre-listing and gets to find it first. Never heard anyone complain about it.

 

And if the FTF-hounds want to run out and be the first to find it after listing they still have something to pat themselves on the back about.

 

I have never been a fan of finding caches before they are published. For me, this is not a legitimate find and allthough i would be appreciative of the thought, i wouldn't want to go for the cache like that. And i sure wouldn't want cache owner to post a note on the cache page telling others to stay away until i found the thing either. Like most everything i do, i feel better when i accomplish something by working for it. If i want that FTF bad enough then i need to work to get it!

 

I'm not saying that the OP was wrong for doing this as it is a very nice gesture on his part. Just another way to geocache and opinions are gonna vary, it's just something that doesn't float my boat!

[+Blue Power Ranger]

Can you clarify the purpose of giving the listing to the honoree early? Was it so they could be the FTF or so it could be their 1001st find?

 

Seems like you could have pretty easily avoided the problems by simply stating somewhere on the cache page what your intentions were.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Blue Power Ranger

[+WalruZ]

Unfortunately all you've done is messed with your honoree. They don't actually have an FTF because the cache wasn't published when they found it. Such a pursuit can't result in an FTF, even if they sign it first. There's nothing inherently wrong with finding a cache before publication, I've done so because a friend gave me coordinates of an unpublished cache that I was hiking in the area of, but I would never conceit to say that I was FTF, and, sadly, neither can your friend.

[+The Leprechauns]

To avoid criticism such as some of the posts in this thread, some time ago I deleted my find on the one cache I found prior to publication. Yet, my opinion is that it's the owner's prerogative to choose where and when to list a geocache on any listing site. Heck, some private caches aren't listed on *any* public listing site. There is no rule stating that the FTF has to be reserved until after a cache is published on *this* listing site.

[+art begotti]

it was supposed to be his 1001 (and it was), but i really should have mentioned something in the cache page, or done something like that.

 

after reading mudfrog's post, i feel really bad, because i'm one of those types that really nitpicks about "legitimate" finds. i mean, yes, he found it, but in an unfair manner... although, equally so, he would have eventually found this cache anyway, right? the only thing i noticed different about his log that i found was that he didn't mention getting an ftf... maybe he acknowledges the fact that it wasn't a legal ftf, and so he didn't mention it... and in the email apology i sent last night to mr. 6:45, i did tell him that yes, i wouldn't mind it if he claimed ftf, since he was the first ftf after posting. looking back at his log though, he hasn't changed it yet... i'm just not sure what to do. i mean, i can't undo the cache, or the logs, or the ftf. gah, what's a guy to do?

[+briansnat]

my whole dilemma is this... should i have let the honoree find the cache before it was published?

 

It's your cache and you can do whatever you want with it. You have to remember that this is only a listing service, one of several. Nowhere is it written that a cache has to be published here before its found.. Nor is it written that it can't be listed elswhere first, then listed here.

 

So you can give the coords to your friends first, post them on your own website, post them another listing service first or run an ad in the newspaper if you like. Its your cache and nobody else's beeswax how you choose to publicize it.

 

 

Unfortunately all you've done is messed with your honoree. They don't actually have an FTF because the cache wasn't published when they found it

 

If he found the cache first, what is he, second to find? Of course he is first to find. The second person to find it is second to find. I guess the second finder can call himself "First To Find After Publishing On Geocaching.com" . What if, instead of giving the coordinates to his friend, the owner first published the cache on Navicache (where about 2 people would have seen it), then decided to list it here?

Edited July 21, 2006 by briansnat

[+StarBrand]

He was FTF - he used the coords and a GPS to "find" it same day as publish.. The other guy was also FTF because he was first after it was published.

 

No prizes via the website for any FTF's.

 

It is now published and listed on GC.com and both found it and signed the log. The FTF claim is just vaporware on a good day anyway.

[+tozainamboku]

I agree with WalruZ. There is nothing wrong with finding a cache before it is published on this site. Your friend found this cache and once the cache is published can go and log it. He can count it as his 1001st find. But to be fair to the people who are motivated by a FTF, the FTF really belongs to first person to find the cache after it gets published on GC.com. Around here is common for cachers to provide coordinates for a new cache before it gets published to friends to beta-test the cache. Beta testers will often sign the log book on the second page to let the FTF claim the first spot and usually will wait till after a FTF before logging online.

[+briansnat]

But to be fair to the people who are motivated by a FTF, the FTF really belongs to first person to find the cache after it gets published on GC.com. Around here is common for cachers to provide coordinates for a new cache before it gets published to friends to beta-test the cache. Beta testers will often sign the log book on the second page to let the FTF claim the first spot and usually will wait till after a FTF before logging online.

 

I never got the concept of claiming, or awarding FTF. There can only be one FTF and that is the first person to find the cache. How they received the coordinates is irrelevant. Now if the guy who finds it first thanks to getting the coords before it was published goes around bragging about it, that would be pretty cheezy.

[BRTango]

Unfortunately all you've done is messed with your honoree. They don't actually have an FTF because the cache wasn't published when they found it. Such a pursuit can't result in an FTF, even if they sign it first. There's nothing inherently wrong with finding a cache before publication, I've done so because a friend gave me coordinates of an unpublished cache that I was hiking in the area of, but I would never conceit to say that I was FTF, and, sadly, neither can your friend.

 

Can you please cite for me the rule/guideline that states this? The first name in the logbook is the FTF. The cache owner, owns the cache and can do with it as he pleases.

[+Hokers]

I like what you did for him. Caches placed in honor of a milestone have some leeway in terms of the honoree in my mind. Might have felt different on a regular cache but see no problem with this one.

 

I think the FTF mainiacs have to accept that they might not be first on milestone caches.

[+wiseye]

In this area when a cache is placed to honor someone most people know to let the honoree find it first. If they don't find it in a day or two someone else will go ahead and find it.

[+Mudfrog]

Briansnat said:

If he found the cache first, what is he, second to find? Of course he is first to find. The second person to find it is second to find. I guess the second finder can call himself "First To Find After Publishing On Geocaching.com" . What if, instead of giving the coordinates to his friend, the owner first published the cache on Navicache (where about 2 people would have seen it), then decided to list it here?

 

This is my opinion and i'm not saying it is right or that anyone else should follow it. Alot of us agree that pocket and temporary caches are not legitimate caches because they aren't listable on GC.com. Well these all have FTFs too but to me they shouldn't be logged as such online. This is how i look at a cache that isn't yet published on the site, it isnt listed and until it is, it's not a legitimate cache. Again, this is how i look at things and i certainly wouldn't ever raise a stink about it when it happens.

 

Art Begotti, i hope you don't worry about this none. Believe me, i think differently from most folks out there and i'm just thinking more along technical lines here. You did good as there are alot of cachers who do this. The main thing is that the cacher with 1001 finds probably had a great time and appreciated all you did.

[Captain Chaoss]

I hardly think you should have to apologize for an act of kindness Art, but you know the saying: "No good deed goes unpunished" ! I tend to explain any unique traits of a cache in the hopes of avoiding problems, but you can't make everyone happy. Don't beat yourself up over it.

 

However, feel free to harbor all the guilt you can muster over your blasted San-Fran-Cisco

Edited July 21, 2006 by Captain Chaoss

[+Davispak]

Around here someone usually plans a cache event for the person's milestone cache. The last one was for Night Hawk and his 2000 cache. We eat, and everyone has a good time. the honoree usually caches to the nearest number and the event is the milestone

[+Isonzo Karst]

I agree completely with Briansnat on this one - really :-). GC.com is just a listing service, and the first finder is the first finder, all other finders aren't.

I don't see how this is complicated.

 

I have known of a case where the honoree was given coords for a cache, found it, it was reviewed and couldn't be listed here. There was much tearing of hair over that one, which I also didn't understand. Heck, it was still a cache. And a nice one too. About a year later that particular land manager changed policy and the cache was listed.

[+Kathi & the Grouch]

I am one who has been "FTF after publishing" and indeed it is a little disappointing to have rushed out with high expectations only to find out that someone not playing by the same rules signed the book ahead of you.

 

In my case, the local FTF Hound found out about the cache early and signed the book before the cache was published. (The cache was placed as one in a series done to promote regional forestry organizations and they listed the cache on their organization's web site prior to its GC.com listing.) After a brief pout while standing over the cache, I had a good laugh. It certainly was fitting that the one who beat me to the cache was 'the hound'. I mentally tipped my hat to him. He was sly enough to watch the organization's web site for the info. But I still consider MY log a legitimate ftf on that one TOO.

 

As others have mentioned, the FTF is really a personal count. It doesn't hurt anyone for me to claim it.

 

I think there CAN be more than one FTF -- ie:

 

First to Find with no notification (this could be a muggle)

First to Find WITH notification (this could be your milestone friend)

First to Find after the cache is publicly announced (like the "hound" in my story above)

First to Find after the cache is listed on a geo-centric web site (not necessarily gc.com)

First to Find after the cache is listed on GC.com (the definition most GC.com'ers use)

 

All the above assume you signed the logbook. In MY way of thinking, there could also be FTF's who don't sign the log book, and to me, these are also legitimate IN THEIR OWN WAY:

 

First to Find UNABLE to sign log (a raccoon)

First to Find UNWILLING to sign log (geocacher who sees the cache on the trestle over the water but NO WAY is going to go get it)

First to Find NEGLECTED to sign log (muggle coming, gotta scoot)

First to Find DECLINED to sign log (wanted to leave it for the next guy)

First to Find FORGOT to sign log (so overwhelmed by the FTF prize, forgot even to rehide the cache)

....(etc)... I'm sure there are some great stories out there!

 

Of course, most GC.com'ers only recognize the "first to find" in one or two of the scenarios above, so if you brag publicly about your FTF's you will look foolish if you claim an FTF for the other scenarios. (Not to mention, you invite angst, potential flaming, and apparently, bodily harm!)

 

Bottom line is, I still enjoyed my early morning hike for the forestry cache! It was great being outside that early and I got to experience the ambience of the local woods in a way that I otherwise would not have.

 

You didn't mention if the FTF (after your friend) made a stink about not getting their name on the first page. I suspect it wasn't too much of an issue for them. And I bet they enjoyed the hunt.

[+TheManInStripes]

I think the following shows why some of us hate the giving of coords to someone else early:

 

Flying Blind

 

The coords for point 1 of the multi were given to someone via phone, prior to publishing. Not only that, the WRONG coords were published on the cache page. So group 1 goes out and finds the cache, seemingly without any trouble at all, and the rest of us are left scratching our heads. The cache was re-done as Flying Blind Again, which I don't hae handy, but you c an find it off the other page.

[+BlueDeuce]

FTF implies that you competed against others and got there before them.

 

Do I care that you let someone find it before it was listed? No.

 

Does finding a cache a day after someone else found it mean it was less of an effort? Of course not.

 

But if you ever place a cache and let me find it before it was published and told people that I got a FTF, I'm going to beat you with my walker.

 

You hear me?

[+5¢]

Just like the whole pocket lint thing, the cache was not a published www.geocaching.com cache, so the find does not count since they at the time did not find a cache listed at GC.com

[+Sagefox]

FTF implies that you competed against others and got there before them.

 

I don't agree. Finding a cache is a physical act. If you are the first one to physically find the cache, whether pre-publising advantage was given or not, you are first.

 

In OP's example the second party to reach the container was only the first to find after the cache was published. If I found a container and it had a finder's signature in the logbook I couldn't possibly consider claiming FTF. That would be silly. To be mad because someone else signed the logbook before I got there would be silly.

 

FTF is a fun event for people but to be FTF you have to be the first one to physically find the container. It doesn't matter if you lie, cheat or steal. If you physically find the container and sign the log and you were not within sight of the hider when it was hidden then you are FTF.

[+parker313]

my whole dilemma is this... should i have let the honoree find the cache before it was published?

 

It's your cache and you can do whatever you want with it. You have to remember that this is only a listing service, one of several. Nowhere is it written that a cache has to be published here before its found.. Nor is it written that it can't be listed elswhere first, then listed here.

 

So you can give the coords to your friends first, post them on your own website, post them another listing service first or run an ad in the newspaper if you like. Its your cache and nobody else's beeswax how you choose to publicize it.

 

 

Unfortunately all you've done is messed with your honoree. They don't actually have an FTF because the cache wasn't published when they found it

 

If he found the cache first, what is he, second to find? Of course he is first to find. The second person to find it is second to find. I guess the second finder can call himself "First To Find After Publishing On Geocaching.com" . What if, instead of giving the coordinates to his friend, the owner first published the cache on Navicache (where about 2 people would have seen it), then decided to list it here?

I completely agree with all of that.

 

What's more important in this sport/hobby? Being the FTF or just going geocaching? If he had the coords and he found the cache, then it's an honest find.

 

IMO, anyone who would get THAT worked up about losing out on FTF on a cache meant as an honor to someone else is just taking offense where none is intended.