Marks Previously Not Found

[+Gambrinus & Crew]

I'm still a little new to benchmark hunting, having really only gotten into it in the last few months.

 

I was wondering what other hunters do regarding benchmarks that have previously been logged as Not Found. If I'm just running out to hunt some near the office over lunch, or to grab one near a cache I'm hunting, I usually ignore them.

 

But I plotted out all the BM's in an area north of where I live yesterday and went out hunting. I included a couple previously Not Founds in my to-do list and found one that the Power Squadron didn't find in 2004. I was really surprised. I guess I've just figured that if the USPS couldn't find it, surely a wet-behind-the-ears rookie like me wouldn't do otherwise.

 

So, do you usually hunt these Not Founds, and if so, how often do you come up with a different result than the USPS (or whoever) did? Thanks.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Like Geocaching, US Power squadon is not a government agency. Hopefully, we are more accurate than they are.

Here's a recent example of one that they didn't find. I could see it from forty feet away! OB0266

They do not give the reasons that they could not find the station. That makes it harder. "Road was widened" would give me a good reason not to search for a disk. Given the time and opportunity, I'll search for almost anything! I've found a few not found by government agencies. But, for the most part, if it has not been found, there's usually a good reason why.

[Z15]

I find many that the USPSQD has not found. I like to go look for those because there is a 50/50 chance they did not look very hard (i.e. a drive by). I have suggested in the past that they should NOT allow the USPSQD to report not founds but NGS does not want to insult them. The vast majority of them do good work, Its like any organzation, some will always put more effort into a project and some will say, good enough and quit.

 

I to have found marks reported as NOT FOUND by USGS and NGS also. Many not founds often really mean I DID NOT LOOK VERY HARD FOR THIS. I worked with a guy who, if he could not find it by walking around and looking, he gave up. I am sure many NGS not founds could just be data entry errors, one wrong keystroke and its a not found mark.

Edited July 16, 2006 by Z15

[+PFF]

First, let me say that Gambrinus & Crew is doing a great job over in the Winston-Salem area. I enjoying reading your recovery reports and viewing the great pictures. (You got a little closer to the Silas Creek Parkway than I would have attempted, but I have to admire your "can do" attitude.)

 

Second, let me add my endorsement to the comments by the previous responders. As Z15 pointed out, there is a wide range of proficiency within the USPSQD, just as there is in GEOCACHING.COM. The folks working from your area to the east rotate personnel about once a year. To the west of you, the benchmark hunting crew seems to be more consistent, based upon the initials used in the recovery reports. Hence, the reports to the west tend to be better, by virtue of having more experienced volunteers.

 

I often wonder how USPSQD uses GPS gear to find marks. The NGS data sheet gives the coordinates in Degrees, Minutes, and Seconds. In North Carolina, the Power Squadron recovery remarks use Degrees and decimal Minutes. Unless they are converting the coordinates, they ALWAYS will be standing in the wrong spot. Now, if the written "To Reach" contains current landmarks, there will not be a problem. But for older marks--especially where the reference objects have changed--they may not find the station.

 

One more thing....they sometimes report finding stations which are known to be missing. Overall, they peform a valuable service. But if I could summarize my experience with USPSQD, it would be this:

 

Consider their reports to be an opinion.

 

-Paul-

Raleigh NC

[+PFF]

Just for the record, no agency is perfect. See the 1984 remarks for this station. And this was not a "drive by". In the state archives, it is recorded that a three-man crew searched for over an hour at this site.

 

I am confident that every "old timer" in the forum could quote examples of his/her own.

 

-Paul-

[GH55]

 

I was wondering what other hunters do regarding benchmarks that have previously been logged as Not Found.

 

Finding a previously "Not Found" is what I like best about benchmark hunting. I look for all of them if I have access.

 

It appears to me that the Power Squadron folks in my area must have done several "drive by's" as well, because some have been quite obvious if when the directions are followed.

 

I also tend to be a completist, trying to seach for every mark in an area before moving on.

 

Carrying the most current NGS Data Sheet is helpful when searching for marks that have not been found for many years.

[+m&h]

The 1984 report in Paul's example reminds us that when "Not Found" reports are old enough, the searchers could not use GPS to counteract the loss of reference objects. In such cases, careful examination of the ground (did an Interstate come through here? ) and judicious used of the GPS can do what would have been much more difficult, even for NGS people equipped with theodolites and EDMIs, in 1984.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Gambrinus & Crew -

 

As others have said and implied, when you're looking at a Not Found report, it can be significant as to who did the Not Finding in the report.

 

I certainly could be that some benchmark hunting 'agencies' reports have too many not founds. On the other hand, I have noted that the geocaching community has a definite bias toward Found It. I have seen many many geocaching logs saying they have found the mark, when instead they have found only a reference mark or even a mark that isn't related at all.

 

So, different groups can have a different focus. Perhaps it's as simple as which kind of counting is featured - some benchmark hunting agencies may be counting the number that they looked for, while we count (geocaching site's counting) how many we have found. I don't know if that's the difference, but one can see that either flavor of counting can engender a corresponding type of bias or inaccuracy.

 

To be fair, there are also situations in which someone couldn't find the mark, then a professional surveyor dug out the mark for surveying use, and then someone else found the mark an easy find. There are various other scenarios in which a mark might be easier to find after some time has gone by.

[+Klemmer]

In my area (SoCal) I just ignore any 'Not Found' by USPS. No insult intended, that's just the way I operate from experience.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

So, do you usually hunt these Not Founds, and if so, how often do you come up with a different result than the USPS (or whoever) did? Thanks.

 

Welcome to benchmark hunting. We will look for all benchmarks in the area we will be hunting in. We have found at least 2 dozen "Not Found" by an official agency & another 10 "Not Found" by the Power Squadron (Out here in the middle of the desert!).

 

We always do a quick check to verify that things have changed drastically since the mark was monumented. Make an on the scene decision to look further or not.

 

John

[+PFF]

m&h wrote:

 

The 1984 report in Paul's example reminds us that when "Not Found" reports are old enough, the searchers could not use GPS to counteract the loss of reference objects. In such cases, careful examination of the ground (did an Interstate come through here? ) and judicious used of the GPS can do what would have been much more difficult, even for NGS people equipped with theodolites and EDMIs, in 1984.

 

 

Excellent point!

 

Additional tools available to today's searcher:

*NGS Forward Progam

*Topozone, where the famous "X" marks the spot.

*High Resolution aerial photos

*Affordable metal detectors

 

And, last but not least,

 

*Peer assistance via GEOCACHING.COM forums!!!

 

-Paul-

[+Gambrinus & Crew]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I guess I'll consider my marks available for hunting pool to have just gotten bigger and hunt these marks that the USPS has logged an "opinion" on. Haha!

 

Like OBO266 Harry, the one I found Saturday that had been previously not found was pretty easy to find. It was down in a depression a bit, but it's in a very well-maintained lawn right on a street corner and fits the description perfectly. Maybe that one was a drive by for them.

 

Thanks again!

[Z15]

Maybe some additional stats for the monthly update page?

 

How many found this month that were previouosly reported NOT FOUND, in 2 catagories by USPSQD and ALL OTHERS.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Z15

[mloser]

Gambrinus,

Hunt them all. I look for every mark when I do out, whether it was found or not, and no matter who was the last to not find it. Like 2old, I have had a decent success rate in locating marks previously not found by "offical" agencies--somewhere in the 5+ range out of 1,200 total marks searched for.

 

The USPS recoveries are unique to the individuals doing them. One in my area has done a great job, like PFF mentions in his area. Others have not been so fastidious. If you think of the USPS recoveries as being somewhat of a merit badge activity, with as much credit given for looking as for looking well, you can see you numbers could easily be inflated by sloppy searches.

 

A quick note on the "offical recoveries" too. First, they are only as good as the person doing the searching, just like any activity. A Pennsylvania Dept of Transportation recovery sortie a few years ago left some unfound marks for me to find easily. Was it a summer intern sent out on "busy work" with little instruction? I will never know, but I suspect that looking for benchmarks may be low on the list of jobs that PennDot workers relish.

 

In 1954 the CGS went through my area and searched for a number of marks. Without GPS and metal detectors, as m$h mentions, they had a tougher time of it than I did, although I suspect the area was not as built up then and the landmarks may have been closer to the descriptions then in 2005. However, I have found a few that they didn't.

[+Team Varekai]

I will look for anything, I even plan on going back to the ones I could not recover and looking "harder", I don't always have alot of time to hunt....and if they are listed as destroyed and it has been fairly recent I would still look to see if it is laying there because you could retrieve it for a memento.....check out the video on "how not to recover a benchmark"..awesome & funny