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Honesty In Logging


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Folks, I have long adhered to the "be positive in your log, even if you only say 'TNLNSL'" axiom, but today I finally found a cache that snapped my positivity streak.

We have the same problem in my area as in any other area, I suppose - the caches are declining in quality, big-time. I've only been caching since 2004, but man alive, when I started the caches were in parks and on mountaintops. I'm not even complaining about Wal-Mart micros or anything like that. Instead, we have an epidemic of "toss a vitamin bottle beside the road." I'm not joking at all.

Here's the text of the log I posted today. Now, it could be argued that based on my general "adventure" caching philosophy, I shouldn't have gone after this one in the first place, but I'm gathering TBs for a Hawaii trip and this was the only cache in quite a ways from my home that had a TB. I'm interested to see whether you all thing my log was too harsh. I have a suspicion it's going to tick off the owner, but honestly folks, how long can we keep giving nice, life affirming pats on the back to incredibly bad caches? Call a spade a spade, I guess:

 

Okay, I know I'm going to come across as a big old jerk, but this is the second worse cache I've ever found. I always try to be positive and debated all the way home whether I should be honest about this one. I hate to make enemies, so I hope **** won't take this personally.

The only cache I've seen worse than this one was in a hobo camp. ***** is a very close second, though. Not only is this on the nastiest little road that is literally strewn with trash, but it is an area the police watch constantly to keep perverts and drug dealers away. The nearby Leard Cemetery is where serial killer George Kent Wallace dumped one of his victims. LINK

If you were TRYING to hide a cache in a nasty spot (and make it a scary cache, or night cache) then that is one thing. It is another thing to just kick a taped-up medicine bottle out of the car behind a pole on the filthiest road on earth and call it a geocache. Fort Smith and the surrounding area is just full of great parks, public lands, even Wal-Mart parking lots. I'm sorry, but I just don't need to be led to places like this. There are too many beautiful places to explore without seeing the ugly spots.

I wouldn't bring kids here, for sure. On my way to the cache, I found the carcass of a little dog (looked like a miniature Schnauzer) rotting on the road. It was still hooked to a rusted chain and appeared to have been killed by being dragged behind a car. Just evil. See the photo if you dare.

I signed the log but I won't post a "found it" on this cache, considering it probably only exists to help numbers-obsessed people increase their find count. I don't want to contribute to a game like that.

Again, sorry if I'm offensive, but I think sometimes we are positive to a fault in this game instead of being honest when we come across bad caches. I would hope people would slam my caches as well if they were bad.

Edited by Kiamichi Muskrat
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If it truly was that bad, and if the cache page didn't give you any idea of what you were in for, then I applaud you for our honesty.

 

If OTOH, the cache page made it clear that this was a nasty place, then I see nothing wrong with placing a cache there. Though I can't imagine why one would want to.

 

I think one should always be honest in cache logs. Though a little socially tempered witholding of extreme opinions is often in order, there are times when you are doing other people a favor by telling the truth about what you found. I always read past logs before seeking a cache. If the cache owner left out this crucial description of the area, then I'd be very happy to read yours and realize that I should avoid this one.

 

Just my $.02.

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you asked for opinions, so here's mine:

 

did you send the owner an e-mail first, or just post the log-slam here on the forum? you had the perfect opportunity to help a pretty new cacher, maybe guide him along a bit, and you b****slapped him here on an open forum. was the dead dog picture really necessary? just my opinion, but we're supposed to all be guiding the direction of this game by peer pressure and positive reinforcement for good hides. you did nothing but make an enemy, and anything positive you could have achieved is impossible with this hider now. i'm sure the cache placement left a lot to be desired, but so does your log.

 

eta: forgot an "r." arrrrghh!

Edited by denali7
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Here's the cache description, verbatim:

 

'Located across the road from a cemetery, on a gravel road. Should be a PNG...1.5 for terrain because of some tall quick weeds...parking is about 35 yards away...

 

A large pill bottle covered with dark tape. Log only and a TB...bring your own pen. There was already one casualty on this road today so be alert...Smile....you're on camera...."

 

As far as sending an email first, well, that wouldn't help the next people who seek this thing, would it? People need to know what they are getting into.

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think one should always be honest in cache logs. Though a little socially tempered witholding of extreme opinions is often in order, there are times when you are doing other people a favor by telling the truth about what you found. I always read past logs before seeking a cache. If the cache owner left out this crucial description of the area, then I'd be very happy to read yours and realize that I should avoid this one.

 

Yes, I think the best thing to do in situations like this is to simply state the facts and provide very little editorial. Simply state what you saw and experienced and do not pass judgement on what the cacher was intending to do. I would however ask them what was the point of bringing me here to this location.

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you asked for opinions, so here's mine:

 

did you send the owner an e-mail first, or just post the log-slam here on the forum? you had the perfect opportunity to help a pretty new cacher, maybe guide him along a bit, and you b****slapped him here on an open forum. was the dead dog picture really necessary? just my opinion, but we're supposed to all be guiding the direction of this game by peer pressure and positive reinforcement for good hides. you did nothing but make an enemy, and anything positive you could have achieved is impossible with this hider now. i'm sure the cache placement left a lot to be desired, but so does you log.

 

He kept it anonymous in the forums. I hardly think that's a "b****slap".

OTOH, he may have made friends of people who are glad they read his post and avoided the cache.

 

Again, It depends on whether the cache page warns you or not. I haven't seen the page, because he kept it anonymous, and I haven't spent the time to try to guess it.

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I've felt that way a few times.

 

I think the log was a bit more than needed and will likely get deleted.

 

If you want to convey that message to future finders I would just scale it down a little.

 

I can usually tell what a cache is like by the logs - it doesn't take a lot of words to convey that.

 

Something like:

 

"Found this cache but really did not enjoy it. The are is a mess and a well-known police watch-area. Nothing to see here."

 

It's harsh, but not overly descriptive. Mind you the owner may still delete it, but what can you do, right?

 

I would much prefer to read a log like this than a lie - only to waste my time going out there as well.

 

For caches that don't impress me, I just usually write something quick like TNLN, or "quick find".

But for something like this I'd probably post something more like I mentioned.

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it was not anonymous in the origional post. the gc number was posted, and i read the cache page immediately.

 

Oh. well in that case, I agree that it would be an un-necessary "b****slap".

 

I think the log itself is enough, but an email would definately be in order before taking it to the forums in a non-anonymous way.

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I think that there is a balance between honesty, and not being too blunt.

 

I've used this as an example before, but I like how this cache was handled: Linky. We also personally invited the cache placer to an event we were having, and welcomed them to geocaching. We told them that we would be having a workshop for people on placing caches. They unfortunately did not attend.

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I think the log was a bit more than needed and will likely get deleted.

 

Good point about deletion...

 

I would much prefer to read a log like this than a lie - only to waste my time going out there as well.

 

In fact, I would probably be a little miffed at the previous finders if they didn't warn me in their logs.

 

Again, I won't fault the hide though, just the lack of warning on the cache page.

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I think that there is a balance between honesty, and not being too blunt.

 

I've used this as an example before, but I like how this cache was handled: Linky. We also personally invited the cache placer to an event we were having, and welcomed them to geocaching. We told them that we would be having a workshop for people on placing caches. They unfortunately did not attend.

 

Wow, thanks. That example is a very educational read. Thanks for that.

 

In the past I probably would have logged it much the way the OP did on this one. But after reading this thread, I think I'd handle it more the way it is in this example.

 

What's curious though, is the number of logs that sounded completely positive. Did they really enjoy the cache, or are they just avoiding negativity? In the case of the latter, they are doing a disservice to the seekers that follow by not being honest.

 

It's great to see that in this example the outcome was positive. And that outcome was clearly a direct result of the honesty -- *gentle* honesty -- of the loggers.

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I agree with what some others have already mentioned - I think the same point could have been made without being so harsh. In fact, there was a log just down the page from yours which I thought carried a pretty good version of the same type of message. Here's a snip from that log:

 

You see some beautiful sights out geocaching, but you also see a lot of need for CITO. Thanks for this cache.

Also, I thought the picture was too much. How close to the cache was the carcass, just out of curiosity? No one else mentioned it.

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I think that there is a balance between honesty, and not being too blunt.

 

I've used this as an example before, but I like how this cache was handled: Linky. We also personally invited the cache placer to an event we were having, and welcomed them to geocaching. We told them that we would be having a workshop for people on placing caches. They unfortunately did not attend.

 

Wow, thanks. That example is a very educational read. Thanks for that.

 

In the past I probably would have logged it much the way the OP did on this one. But after reading this thread, I think I'd handle it more the way it is in this example.

 

What's curious though, is the number of logs that sounded completely positive. Did they really enjoy the cache, or are they just avoiding negativity? In the case of the latter, they are doing a disservice to the seekers that follow by not being honest.

 

It's great to see that in this example the outcome was positive. And that outcome was clearly a direct result of the honesty -- *gentle* honesty -- of the loggers.

I agree with you.

 

I have been traveling in the past, and gone to caches where every single log was politely positive. And then the cache turns out to be horrible, and I wonder how all those people could log that way? Frustrating for others who have to decide between that cache and another one when you are traveling.

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BTW, that cache was literally in a garbage dump. It was behind the McDonalds, next to the dumpster, where they threw plant waste and trimmings, and where homeless people had left lots of garbage. It smelled and turned your stomach. The cache was under all that garbage. There is no way that anyone enjoyed that hide. So yes, it is suprising how many people were overly polite and didn't say a thing about it.

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I have always viewed caches as a gift of sorts and I was always taught to say thank you no matter how much I disliked the gift. That mindset has made it hard for me to be honest in my logs. If I didn't like the cache I would just say thanks and leave it at that.

 

As the quality of caches seems to be declining in many places and a lot of these caches are obviously being placed solely for the sake of pumping up the owner's hide stats, I'm beginning to see them less and less as gifts. This makes it a bit easier for me to be honest.

 

Still I don't think I could ever be as brutally honest as the OP's log. There are ways of expressing your displeasure that aren't as negative. Kealia postd a great example of how to do it.

 

Probably the most honest log I ever wrote said:

 

"Found it. Nice view of the dumpsters. Thanks for the cache - I think"

Edited by briansnat
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OK, after doing a little digging, I found it. The cache is No Dumping!! in Oklahoma. There were about 20 other previous finders, and no one else seemed to have a problem with it. Perhaps you just hit it on a bad day is all. I woulda like to have seen Fido in the road dead. Did your puppy die recently, and maybe that's why you're overly sensitive?

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It's his opinion. He's entitled to it.

 

If this site exists mainly for people to exclusively compliment each other, then why even have a free form text field? You could just give each user a series of pre-fab checkboxed, complimentary answers for each log.

 

Otherwise, he's doing everyone else a service by posting his impression, and it's just his opinion -- I'd appreciate reading something like that - maybe I might agree, or disagree, or decide to check it out for myself, or decide to avoid it, but I appreciate getting someone's unfiltered impression of the cache.

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I think a simple tnlnsl would have been more appropriate. If you truly felt a need to go further, an email to the owner could have been sent. Did you honestly believe the owner would not delete your log? I doubt it.

 

It's quite possible to be honest without being rude or denegrating.

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That's the sort of log I couldn't bear to write myself, but would be grateful to read if I were scouting local caches.

 

I think that makes me a coward.

 

Nah, that makes you a Weasel... :)

 

For my part, I appreciate what the OP was trying to do. (I sure don't want to take my wife to crime ridden garbage heaps).

 

Even more, I appreciate that he posted here in an effort to make sure he did it the right way. I think it could have been a bit more tactful, but given the choice between tactful and being in a place where people are being killed, the choice seems pretty clear to me.

Edited by PerryClayton
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We often finds caches on vacation. It's a bummer when you spend gas and precious leisure time to head to an area that you aren't familiar with...then find out that you don't care to get out of the car in that area.

 

There is some great history in my nearby "big city" that I'd love to share the with the geocaching community, but I don't place a cache in that historical area if it wouldn't be safe or clean (thus someplace I wouldn't want to bring someone).

 

edit: grammar

Edited by BlackBrownDog
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I agree with those who say there were better ways to handle the note. I understand you were frustrated, but your method may cause your concerns to be lost in the controversy over the way you worded your message.

 

I would have written a frank, but polite note to the cache owner explaining my concerns about the location and posted a factual, but more bland version of the note on the cache page. People just listen better when they aren't feeling defensive.

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There were about 20 other previous finders, and no one else seemed to have a problem with it. Perhaps you just hit it on a bad day is all.

OR perhaps it's the same problem we have in our area. Instead of people being honest based on the cache itself, we have fakies. They come in various sizes and shapes. Some choose to log opposite of a certain group no matter what. Others tend to say things nicey-nice no matter what which gives false advice to these newer people. This people in turn tend to think since they got great reviews on their cache with bad coordinates behind the dumpster that was nothing more than a sticker on a rock, that what they are doing is not only right, but wanted.

 

Unless I know the cacher whose log I am reading, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. If the nicey-nice group claim it was a great hide, it tends to be a crap micro in the woods for no reason. The numbers people tend to like everything, so just because these 20 people didn't say anything bad doesn't mean his view isn't correct. Seems the nicey-nice people only tend to complain on caches by people they don't like, or behind others backs.

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LOL...this is frickin' hilarious....never in a million years did I think some [person] would rake me over the coals for a cache I hid...anyway, I hid the cache way back in May. The weeds along the road were very overgrown at the time, and the cache was very well hidden. Since then, the county has begun mowing and actively spraying the weeds. I can't help it if the cover is not as good as it once was. This [person] makes it sound like I just randomly tossed the bottle out the truck window and kept rolling. Not the case. There is a sign that says "No Dumping", because the Oklahoma trash like to dump their Oklahoma trash along side of the road. The reason I picked this spot and the description is because the sign says camera surveillance is in use. I find this ludicrous out in a rural area, but comical nonetheless. I don't give a dadgum if some killer killed some boys here 5 years ago or whatever, or if this clown is scared of cemeteries. Nobody made him get out of his car and go find the cache. I am through this entertaining thread for now. People like this guy really give Geocaching a bad name. Peace out.

 

[Moderator edits, lets keep the forums family friendly, eh?]

Edited by Quiggle
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I thought it was fine as is.

As did I. I do read the past logs as they appear on the cache page; if I had seen this log, I would immediately cross this cache off my "to to" list. Thank you, OP. As far as the graphic nature of the above original post, my children (including my teenage son) do not read the forums or the cache pages before we set off on a caching trip.

Edited by PeachyPA
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I agree with what some others have already mentioned - I think the same point could have been made without being so harsh. In fact, there was a log just down the page from yours which I thought carried a pretty good version of the same type of message. Here's a snip from that log:

 

You see some beautiful sights out geocaching, but you also see a lot of need for CITO. Thanks for this cache.

Also, I thought the picture was too much. How close to the cache was the carcass, just out of curiosity? No one else mentioned it.

There is a big difference between a site needing CITO and one being a police watch area!

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LOL...this is frickin' hilarious....never in a million years did I think some [person] would rake me over the coals for a cache I hid...anyway, I hid the cache way back in May. The weeds along the road were very overgrown at the time, and the cache was very well hidden. Since then, the county has begun mowing and actively spraying the weeds. I can't help it if the cover is not as good as it once was. This [person] makes it sound like I just randomly tossed the bottle out the truck window and kept rolling. Not the case. There is a sign that says "No Dumping", because the Oklahoma trash like to dump their Oklahoma trash along side of the road. The reason I picked this spot and the description is because the sign says camera surveillance is in use. I find this ludicrous out in a rural area, but comical nonetheless. I don't give a dadgum if some killer killed some boys here 5 years ago or whatever, or if this clown is scared of cemeteries. Nobody made him get out of his car and go find the cache. I am through this entertaining thread for now. People like this guy really give Geocaching a bad name. Peace out.

 

:o

 

You actually chose this as a spot to place a cache because the Oklahoma trash dump their trash there . . . :o

 

Uh . . . okay . . . :)

Edited by Quiggle
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LOL...this is frickin' hilarious....never in a million years did I think some [person] would rake me over the coals for a cache I hid...anyway, I hid the cache way back in May. The weeds along the road were very overgrown at the time, and the cache was very well hidden. Since then, the county has begun mowing and actively spraying the weeds. I can't help it if the cover is not as good as it once was. This [person] makes it sound like I just randomly tossed the bottle out the truck window and kept rolling. Not the case. There is a sign that says "No Dumping", because the Oklahoma trash like to dump their Oklahoma trash along side of the road. The reason I picked this spot and the description is because the sign says camera surveillance is in use. I find this ludicrous out in a rural area, but comical nonetheless. I don't give a dadgum if some killer killed some boys here 5 years ago or whatever, or if this clown is scared of cemeteries. Nobody made him get out of his car and go find the cache. I am through this entertaining thread for now. People like this guy really give Geocaching a bad name. Peace out.

:o

 

You actually chose this as a spot to place a cache because the Oklahoma trash dump their trash there . . . :o

 

Uh . . . okay . . . :)

 

Lol...I will go grab pics of the exact location and the surrounding locale and let you all be the judge. And it's not a police watch area lol....hopefully I don't get killed out there though.

Edited by Quiggle
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Is there any particular reason why you are bringing people to a dump site? Well, then you shouldn't be so surprised when people don't give it rave reviews.

 

ROFLMAO! It is NOT a dump site per se. It is the side of the road, where some folks have dumped some things. This hide IS NOWHERE NEAR ANY OF THE DUMPED STUFF. FOLKS, I AM NOT AN IDIOT. I WOULD NOT SEND PEOPLE TO A DUMPSITE TO LOOK FOR A CACHE. Geez.... :) Hopefully my daughter will get to the babysitter in time for me to get pics of the area tonight. If not tonight, believe me, I will have pics tomorrow, and you experts can be the judges.

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Is there any particular reason why you are bringing people to a dump site? Well, then you shouldn't be so surprised when people don't give it rave reviews.

 

ROFLMAO! It is NOT a dump site per se. It is the side of the road, where some folks have dumped some things. This hide IS NOWHERE NEAR ANY OF THE DUMPED STUFF. FOLKS, I AM NOT AN IDIOT. I WOULD NOT SEND PEOPLE TO A DUMPSITE TO LOOK FOR A CACHE. Geez.... :) Hopefully my daughter will get to the babysitter in time for me to get pics of the area tonight. If not tonight, believe me, I will have pics tomorrow, and you experts can be the judges.

 

Ok, thanks for clarifying. :o

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There were about 20 other previous finders, and no one else seemed to have a problem with it. Perhaps you just hit it on a bad day is all.

OR perhaps it's the same problem we have in our area. Instead of people being honest based on the cache itself, we have fakies. They come in various sizes and shapes. Some choose to log opposite of a certain group no matter what. Others tend to say things nicey-nice no matter what which gives false advice to these newer people. This people in turn tend to think since they got great reviews on their cache with bad coordinates behind the dumpster that was nothing more than a sticker on a rock, that what they are doing is not only right, but wanted.

 

Unless I know the cacher whose log I am reading, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. If the nicey-nice group claim it was a great hide, it tends to be a crap micro in the woods for no reason. The numbers people tend to like everything, so just because these 20 people didn't say anything bad doesn't mean his view isn't correct. Seems the nicey-nice people only tend to complain on caches by people they don't like, or behind others backs.

 

Or perhaps the hider simply deletes all the bad logs and leaves the nicey-nice ones. ??

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LOL...this is frickin' hilarious....never in a million years did I think some [person] would rake me over the coals for a cache I hid...anyway, I hid the cache way back in May. The weeds along the road were very overgrown at the time, and the cache was very well hidden. Since then, the county has begun mowing and actively spraying the weeds. I can't help it if the cover is not as good as it once was. This [person] makes it sound like I just randomly tossed the bottle out the truck window and kept rolling. Not the case. There is a sign that says "No Dumping", because the Oklahoma trash like to dump their Oklahoma trash along side of the road. The reason I picked this spot and the description is because the sign says camera surveillance is in use. I find this ludicrous out in a rural area, but comical nonetheless. I don't give a dadgum if some killer killed some boys here 5 years ago or whatever, or if this clown is scared of cemeteries. Nobody made him get out of his car and go find the cache. I am through this entertaining thread for now. People like this guy really give Geocaching a bad name. Peace out.

:):):o:o:o:o

OK, the cache placer has now arrived, let the real fun begin. Personally, I'm glad you're here. The OP, IMO, just lost his dog or something, and I think he found him in the middle of the road. I wish we could all see the picture of THAT!!

Edited by Quiggle
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I have always viewed caches as a gift of sorts and I was always taught to say thank you no matter how much I disliked the gift. That mindset has made it hard for me to be honest in my logs. If I didn't like the cache I would just say thanks and leave it at that.

 

"Found it. Nice view of the dumpsters. Thanks for the cache - I think"

 

I have thought of them in much the same way also but I think my viewpoint puts a little more responsibility towards the owner of the cache. I like to think of them in terms of a social "event" of sorts the cache owner is hosting, like a dinner party, etc. etc.

 

I may be old fashioned but one doesn't send out an invitation (at least I hope not) and put out spoiled and rancid leftovers for their guests. In many parts of the world tremendous focus is placed on being an attentive and gracious host and it is a great point of pride for the host to be esteemed by their guests for their efforts. One puts forth thier best when entertaining guest. I don't know why many don't think this way in regards to the caches they host. Placing a crappy cache container next to a homeless squat is in my mind like shoveling pig slop to your guests and is very insulting.

 

And what's worse is that the way the system works now, anyone that is actually honest like the OP in their logs runs the risk of having it deleted by the cache owner and thus serves as no warning to others.

 

Let's place caches we would like to find ourselves.

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GADS that's a lot of stuff to edit! :)

 

Let's all please remember that this is a family friendly site, no name calling, no abuse, it's all up there in the Forum Guidelines, folks.

 

Please drop the name calling. Thanks

 

Bret

So, are you Quiggle, that edited the **s out of my post so and replaced it with [person] so that Montaan wasn't calling people sphincter in a not so nice way?

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Or perhaps the hider simply deletes all the bad logs and leaves the nicey-nice ones. ??

 

Nah, I am above that. I didn't know you could do that anyway. If you look through all of my 85 or so finds and 3 hides, this guy is the only one who has even thought about dragging me through the mud. I'd say 99% of everyone in this area are great, everyday people. I guess you can figure out who I left out. :)

Edited by LostMontanan
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